I agree that condom choice is a myth. Of course, performers could choose a different career. No one is forcing them to have sex in front of the camera.
Unless performers are celibate or in monogamous relationships, there is a reasonable doubt, as the difficulty is in proving that the sex on set was where the disease was transmitted, not the sex off of the set. The best evidence is a statistically significant difference between transmission rates inside the industry versus transmission rates in the general population. Until somebody produces a reliable study that gives those numbers you've got nothing but anecdotal evidence. That may work for political theater but I hope the courts set a higher standard.
Once again, I acknowledged that context can make a difference. I concede that any chain of events that is deliberately caused will probably end somewhere when the instigators are satisfied. Do you think the enemies of porn will ever be satisfied unless they see it completely wiped out? The people who are responsible for speed limits didn't have a fundamental problem with cars. The complete banning of cars was never the ultimate goal of people who pushed for speed limits. And again, it's always a question of where it ends. Not if it will. Edited by - randomprecision on 8/24/2009 5:28:16 AM
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Aug 24 2009 : 1:44PM
That is a great point which I thought about. How would it apply to other industries? Can they tell everyone to wear a condom? The other point you brought up is also valid, we would all move out of state.
I think that it is impossible to disregard customer factor. Most of porn fans want to watch unprotected sex. I read many discussions. It is real fact. Condoms in porn ruin all the fantasy, because condom protection create a feel, that performers be afraid to have sex. Yes, unprotected sex is risky, but it create the feel of fun . For example. Gang bang. One girl and 10 guys. No condoms. We all know how much it is dangerous to have unprotected sex with many partners. I do not think that many of us would take part in such action. Porn is for our fantasy. We can see this extreme stuff. It is not allowed, it is risky, but this brave and naughty girl does it. Real pleasure! If guys would use condoms, it would ruin all fun. Why they do it, if they are afraid and use condoms? Where is naughtiness? Where is natural feeling? Where is risk factor? What is extreme? Condoms in porn is the educational material, demonstration of safe sex and nothing more. I think that porn fans do not need educational materials in porn scenes. We can see and read it in everywhere! Mandatory condom use in porn is wrong way. For example. Brazil. Condom use long time was usual thing there. Now I found new stuff from Brasileirinhas. Bruna Ferraz did DAP without condoms with anal creampie in the finish. She work without condoms in all of her videos, what I found. Fans loves it. If performers like Bruna are ready to take the risk and make extreme stuff, what is wrong? Performers are adults and can make own decision. I found some interesting german sites. Girls like Gina Blonde (www.gina-blonde.com) and Creampie Ronja (www.spassfucktor.de) organize gang bangs with fans without condom use on a regular bases despite all risks. They are real bareback riders. It is impossible to ban unprotected sex. Mandatory condom use in porn is senseless!
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Aug 24 2009 : 2:40PM
'YOU CAN NEVER BE TOO CAREFUL IN SEX AND IN JOURNALISM' SAYS VIVID CHIEF STEVEN HIRSCH
LOS ANGELES -- (August 24, 2009) – Vivid Entertainment co-chairman Steven Hirsch said today that he was relieved that the Associated Press had distributed a correction to an erroneous story that falsely reported on the leading adult studio's health safety record.
"The Associated Press is one of the most highly regarded news gathering organizations in the world, but on August 20th the news agency failed to check its facts for a story with the headline 'Porn Makers Challenged for not Mandating Condoms' by Shaya Tayefe Mohajer," Mr. Hirsch said. "Her story incorrectly stated that five performers in Vivid films tested positive for HIV in 2004. This erroneous statement was damaging to our company and demonstrates that you can never be too careful in sex and in journalism. The truth is that throughout 2004 Vivid had a mandatory condom policy and every performer was, and is today, tested before he or she acts in one of our productions. None of our performers had or has HIV. We are pleased that AP sent out a correction on Saturday, August 22nd and only wish they had done so immediately after we called the error to their attention rather than waiting more than 24 hours."
Mr. Hirsch pointed out that since 2004 performers have acted in several hundred thousand-sex scenes shot by adult studios in the San Fernando Valley and there has only been one reported case of HIV. "It is far more dangerous for a person to have sex with someone they meet casually in a bar than it is for people who act in a carefully policed adult film setting. We are confident that we are taking all precautions and the results to date demonstrate that this is the case," he said.
I am a Firm believer In Choice... we get tested... Now.. choose if you want to wear one... I say NO!!! And I promise... 99% of companies would respect if a girl had a Condom rule... the other 1% just won't book her!! I love how they feel they need to what Protect "US?" They aren't even the ones Fuckin... so MOVE ON!!! Leave the fuckin and the choices to the ones actually doing it!!
I love you Phoenix Marie! :) Considering that the sex in porn is still safer than most Saturday night bar crawls, I think this is getting a little out of control.
I truly don't mind the use of condoms in scenes, and I honestly would like to see more companies be like Wicked and use them all of the time. That said--in my opinion and similar to Woody, Phoenix Marie, et. al.--it shouldn't be an issue for the government to dictate. This is particularly true given two things: a. The number of adult film stars in straight porn that have gotten HIV from working in adult films--in the modern era of testing, etc.--is incredibly low. and b. As pornlaw mentioned, there are very real free speech issues involved.
How about this in the true spirit of American compromise: Porn stars must wear helmets. Bikers must wear condoms. Any study of American history justifies this logic. Doing my part, Irish Caraway
It is very nice that we have such performers like you, Phoenix. I saw your scene in Ass Worship 11. What is the best answer for advocates of mandatory condom use? Anal creampie, of course!!! I have great respect for girls like you! Good luck!
I think you should get out of the Porn business and become a shrink cuz you seem to know more about me and what Im thinking and why im thinking it than I do. You are right! Who am I to post what Im thinking? I mean what do I know about what I was thinking when I was thinking it? Now, on a more serious side; Yes I am concerned about STD's but I dont need you or anyone else posting what you think I will or wont do. I believe that choice is up to me. I posted here to get help getting into the Porn industry not for others to point out my flaws or mis-quote me cuz that sure aint gona help me at all. I know, I know, being a girl that sticks up for herself and has an opinion aint going to help me in this industry either so maybe I will just stick to stripping. Misty Massage
Well I went back also and read your initial post Misty, and it seemed clear to me you were talking more about a Bunny Ranch type thing, and not necessarily about the porn industry in regards to condom use. More specifically, condom use by your customers. In truth, both I can certainly appreciate and understand though. I find it interesting how defensive some in the industry tend to get with the mere mention of condom use. I think every performer has a right to want to feel as safe as he or she possibly can be. The more comfortable they feel, the more relaxed they'll hopefully be.
All this fighting over seas for Democracy and right for people to choose and here we are slowly eroding choices. Everybody in the industry knows whats up. You might not get as much work if you make the wrong choice, you might encounter extra trouble by making certain choices. If these concern you then you might have to make the ultimate choice about your direction. The Helmet thing is quite relevant, I hate laws about wearing a helmet, in Italy the law is you must have with you a helmet, if its on your head is a choice for yourself. That is as far as you need to rail-road people. the state should only do so much pass that is the big word FREEDOM P.S. whenever Jesus gets involved **** goes down
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Aug 27 2009 : 2:00PM
i agree. The choice should be yours. Why we have some people deciding for us what is the best thing, is bewildering to me. I always believed the rule of never tell someone else what or how they should be, because that leaves the door open for them to tell you the same. Misty writes a whole long post advocating condom use and more frequent testing, then when you call her on it, she becomes defensive. Just read your post again Misty before you attack me again. I have been doing this for a longtime, I have known a lot of talent over the years, in the last 10 to 15 years, the measures that are in place, work. will there be some slip ups? yes, as in any industry. But our record at Vivid is flawless. We held out longer than any other company to make condoms mandatory, except for Wicked, we changed to choice by performer because the performers wanted it more than the customers. I think this complaint to Cal Osha will go nowhere.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Aug 27 2009 : 2:02PM
You are 100% correct. I think Shelly Lubben has nothing better to do. Shelly Lubben has found a way to make money as an advocate against Porn. She is now a so called missionary. She saves people. Hypocrite is one word that comes to mind. Edited by - hollywood woody on 8/27/2009 2:07:31 PM
^ And, Shelly Lubben was a nobody to begin with during her brief time in the industry.
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satchman23 Studios - do not send screeners to this person.
1906 Posts 12/06
Posted - Aug 27 2009 : 3:25PM
+1
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jasonjason Deactivated User
12 Posts 8/09
Posted - Aug 27 2009 : 3:54PM
Hollywood woody writes."Our record at VIVID is flawless" Does VIVID provide 'folow-up'(that means AFTER) testing and treatment for performers who have been exposed to possibly infectious bodily fluids, which is required by OSHA stautes? If you do not proive 'follow-up' testing how can you possibly know if anyone got infected while working for VIVID? Holywood writes."We give the girls a choice, as do 'MOST' companies.(emphasis "MOST" mine) On this statement I call shenanigans(bullshit). How many insutry insiders on this board agree with Hollywood Woody that 'most' companies give the girls a choice to use condoms or not? Didnt VIVID settle out of court with Kira Kener in a sawsuit that had STD allegations in it?(as well as unethical business practices)
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Aug 27 2009 : 7:12PM
Are you Shelly Lubben? Judging from your other 2 posts you have some agenda, I know what follow up means, you should learn how to spell it. Also provide is spelled , p r o v i d e. Why would we provide follow up testing if they weren't exposed in the first place? Also learn to spell Hollywood, while you're at it industry is a pretty simple word to spell. They also provide this new thing here called spell check, which will help you sound at least half-way intelligent. I am only concerned with what Vivid does, and we do give the girls a choice, believe it or not, I really don't care if you do or don't. I think you mean lawsuit, not sawsuit. For Christ sake the S is no where near the L on the keyboard. Suffice to say if Kira had a case she would have gone through with it, I am unaware of any settlement. But here you are bordering on slander. Again industry is spelled as I just typed it, not how you did twice. let me reprint this again. 'YOU CAN NEVER BE TOO CAREFUL IN SEX AND IN JOURNALISM' SAYS VIVID CHIEF STEVEN HIRSCH LOS ANGELES -- (August 24, 2009) – Vivid Entertainment co-chairman Steven Hirsch said today that he was relieved that the Associated Press had distributed a correction to an erroneous story that falsely reported on the leading adult studio's health safety record. "The Associated Press is one of the most highly regarded news gathering organizations in the world, but on August 20th the news agency failed to check its facts for a story with the headline 'Porn Makers Challenged for not Mandating Condoms' by Shaya Tayefe Mohajer," Mr. Hirsch said. "Her story incorrectly stated that five performers in Vivid films tested positive for HIV in 2004. This erroneous statement was damaging to our company and demonstrates that you can never be too careful in sex and in journalism. The truth is that throughout 2004 Vivid had a mandatory condom policy and every performer was, and is today, tested before he or she acts in one of our productions. None of our performers had or has HIV. We are pleased that AP sent out a correction on Saturday, August 22nd and only wish they had done so immediately after we called the error to their attention rather than waiting more than 24 hours." Mr. Hirsch pointed out that since 2004 performers have acted in several hundred thousand-sex scenes shot by adult studios in the San Fernando Valley and there has only been one reported case of HIV. "It is far more dangerous for a person to have sex with someone they meet casually in a bar than it is for people who act in a carefully policed adult film setting. We are confident that we are taking all precautions and the results to date demonstrate that this is the case," he said. You and your facts are probably very questionable, but I really don't have the time to fact check you. You obviously have some agenda, or work for Shelly Lubben. Your thinly veiled disguise is very easy to see through. Edited by - hollywood woody on 8/27/2009 7:30:13 PM Edited by - hollywood woody on 8/27/2009 7:32:53 PM Edited by - hollywood woody on 8/27/2009 7:39:05 PM
[/quote] Aplus wrote: Well I went back also and read your initial post Misty, and it seemed clear to me you were talking more about a Bunny Ranch type thing, and not necessarily about the porn industry in regards to condom use. More specifically, condom use by your customers. In truth, both I can certainly appreciate and understand though. I find it interesting how defensive some in the industry tend to get with the mere mention of condom use. I think every performer has a right to want to feel as safe as he or she possibly can be. The more comfortable they feel, the more relaxed they'll hopefully be. [/quote] Thank you! Edited by - MistyMassage on 8/27/2009 8:50:55 PM
Hollywood, I knew this was to good to be true. You say you give up then you bring it up again in your next post. You are like a bull in a china shop here with a reply for everyone. I notice you are nice to the ones that you agree with but attack the ones you don't. I understand that you don't agree with me, especially when you misunderstand me, but that don't give you the right to attack me. I don't agree with you either on some issues "like this one" but I didn't say anything to you directly until you called me out. I don't want to come off as a bitch but you cant really be surprised when you make a statement like you did. You know I'm here looking for help to get into Porn but you put out there that no one will hire me cuz you misunderstood what I said. You know you would be pissed too if that had been done to you. Its obvious that you have already made it so you dont care what otheres think about you, well, I havent made it yet so please give me a break here. I can get private messages and emails so if you are ever uncertain about something I say then please be kind enough to ask me to clarify in a private conversation first before you make me look like an ass again cuz that dose not help my future. Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that. What do you say? Now, I would like to clarify a few things. I don't like condoms but I don't like AIDS either so condoms seem to be the lesser evil. This dose "NOT" mean I would never have unprotected sex, it just means I like to be cautious and at a minimum the guy I'm with would of had to had a resent test before I would consider having unprotected sex with him. It is a fact that girls are more likely to contract a STD from unprotected sex then men plus birth control is not always 100% effective either and that's the main reason girls prefer the use of condoms more than men. With all that said, this is the USA and we don't have to call each other out and throw stones if we disagree. A good educated debate with the concerns of all parties involved will get us all further in the long run. On the helmet issue. I don't think anyone should have to use a helmet just as I don't think a man should have to use a condom to jack off. I do think the operator should pass a drivers test and all passengers should wear a helmet. If anyone wants to put their own life at risk, I have no problem with that but I don't think anyone should be able to put other peoples life at risk if there is a way to prevent it. That is my opinion and you are welcome to disagree with me if you like but please don't hate me just cuz you don't agree with me. Misty Massage
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jasonjason Deactivated User
12 Posts 8/09
Posted - Aug 27 2009 : 11:30PM
Misty, The 'attack the messenger' response when you cant attack the message itself, is standard operating procedure on these industry boards. Just read Hollywoods response to my post. It seems spelling and grammar are more imporntant than the issue being discussed. ANd Hollywood, you just need to google "Kira Kenner lawsuit Vivid" to see hundreds of article about the case. The Los Angeles Times artcle aoubt HIV on Vivid sets was lousy journalism, no doubt. But what about the 2000 performers since 2004 who have gotten either gonn or chalm. Funny how Mr. Hirsh didnt mention that. Then if you add in herpes, hpv, PID, trichomonis, bacterial vaginosis, etc. the number would skyrocket. Hollywood, does VIVID test for any of these, or hepatitis for that matter? Hollywood, did you know that the urine test used by AIM does NOT detect gonn or chlam in the throat or anus, where these two diseases can remain asymptomatic for months. Does VIVID have its performs get anal and throat swabs as well. (You and I both know they dont) ANd considering oral and anal sex are the staples of porn, wouldnt you expect that the clinic in charge of testing would do these tests? Or would the results, which have to be reported to the coutny be too much for the industry to handle? ANd yes, there have been, as Steve states, hundres of thousands of scenes shot, but what he fails to mention is that they were all done by about 10000 indiviual performers, and the rate of std's among those performers is astronomically higher than the general public. Steve has used that old, porn star are safer line so many times he probably actually believes it, as do so many other misinformed people in porn.
We didn't bring a compass 'cause we ain't got nowhere to go 173 Posts 4/09
Posted - Aug 28 2009 : 12:16AM
Not that I intend to defend Shelley Lubben here, but how is she a hypocrite? The perfect definition for a hypocrite is the porn producer who says condom use in his productions is mandatory, but doesn't hire performers who call him on that offer. Lubben OTOH says porn is bad and destroys lives, and therefore fights the porn industry and wants to get rid of porn completely. She does everything that is possible to make that happen. Seems very straightforward to me, even though I don't agree with that generalization. From the statements I've read of her, I think that Lubben is not too bright, but she's certainly true to her intentions. From her POV, porn has almost destroyed her life, god saved her, now she wants to destroy porn and help god save all porn performers (actually, not only performers, but all people connected to the industry and all porn users). If this wasn't her private little war, she and pink cross could actually provide a very useful community service by helping women who got into porn for the wrong reasons and are unhappy with their lives as performers but see no alternatives to get out and do what they really want. Leaving only those performers in porn who like their job, which would in turn make for better performances and better porn.
Hey Jason why dont you address my response to your attack before moving on and avoiding the issues I raised. You will certainly be marginalized quite quickly on this board if your only intent is to attack and not enter into intelligent discourse. Michael www.2257Safe.com www.AdultBizLaw.com
This was the gist of my initial post; you're talking out of both sides of your mouth, Woody. On one hand, you're saying it's perfectly fine if a girl wants to be condom only, and that most studios respect the performers choice. Then the truth comes clear; the performers choice is respected for the one shoot; after which producers write the girl off as a pain in the ass, and never book her again. That the 'choice' is a girl can either work without condoms, or she can find another job. That this is your position is perfectly fine; I'm only pointing out that it's disingenuous to portray yourself otherwise. Back to the issue; girls really have a choice to either use no condoms, or expect very little work. If the production companies don't step up to the plate and work towards a trend where condoms are, in fact, a choice, it's only a matter of time before the state does it for them, through mandatory use. Yes, the industry may splinter and relocate; as this happens, more states will follow in California's shoes (assuming they don't just take the opportunity to bleed the new companies dry through obscenity enforcement issues.) John Edited by - JohnHenry on 8/28/2009 3:43:20 AM
Misty you seem to smart to go into porn. weighing up this and that. America prides it self on being the biggest single free market. The policy of the land is let market forces dictate what happens. So really its not the producers fault, production or any one else on that levels fault. Its the general Joe who buys the movies. Condoms don't sell thats the bottom line. The market has made its choice. Much more important issues regarding free market forces than Condoms, like Free Health Care. If were gonna go against our lands beliefs then we start with Free Health Care. So Misty if you go Condom route you wont sell, we'll never hear of you and you'll wish you stuck to stripping. Misty wheres your pics, we might be able to help with your decision.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Aug 28 2009 : 12:23PM
I believe that she is a hypocrite because she was in this business, made money from this business and now she is an advocate against this business. It was all ok when she working making pornos.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Aug 28 2009 : 12:25PM
+1 Thank you Michael. Also I think it would be nice if Jason said who he really is, as I do and you do. Instead of hiding behind a fake name and a computer. Come on Jason, we all want to know who you work for and who you really are.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Aug 28 2009 : 12:54PM
Of course i have, I just never made a career out of my"mistakes".
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jasonjason Deactivated User
12 Posts 8/09
Posted - Aug 28 2009 : 1:56PM
Pornlaw, I completely agree that all porn companies should be required to folow the law just as any other business is required to do. They should have the proper insurance and get proper permits, and do everything else that any legit business has to do. In the case of porn work, where exposure to OPIM is a regular occurance(its the job actually) the companies should be required to follow the law, which includes provideing "foloow-up" testing and treatment at NO expense to the employee. As a lawyer with knowledge of this business you know fullwell that this is the law as it stands today, I dont think you will deny that. If you dont like the law, you try to get it changed. If you ignore the law you suffer the consequences. As far as your analogy to athletes being exposed, of course athleses like MMA and boxers are licesened by the STATE and as you have stated you dont think it would be a bad idea for the state to license porn workers in the same way. State madated testing, physicals, and follwo up testing. But all of these other industies where exposure to OPIM occurs all offer some type of remedies for those who are exposed. The porn industry does nothing for those who are exposed. The porn industry offers no rememdy at all for their EMPLOYEES. PORNLAAW, what remedy does the adult industry offer its employees who are exposed to BBP and OPIM? And of course you would like to know who I am, that way you could start the personal bashing and intimidation. I am no stranger to the tactics of the porn industry. Why cant we just debate the issue without turning it into a personal grudge match? One more question Pornlaw, what do you think of Hollywoods statement that "most companies are condom optional?" And i noticed HOLLYWOOD WOODY completely ignored the herpes,hpv,hepatitis,trichomonismPID, bacterial vaginosis,staph(MRSA) issue. Hollywoodm does VIVID test for these, wait, does VIVID have its p[erformers tested for this(of course Vivid doesnt do the testing) And if Vivid does no testing for these dieseases how could they possibly know if anyone is being exposed to any of them. And that urine gonn/chlam test does NOTHING to detect either of those diseases in the throat or anus. Anyone who is honest here knows that ignoring gonn/chlam in the throat and anus in this industry is despicable. And everyone knows that if they did monthly swabs of the throat and anus for gonn/chlam there would be ALOT more than just the 2000 infected performers in the last few years, as if 2000 infected perrormers isnt frightenign enough!! How much money did the industry spend to treat the 2000 infected performers over the last few year. Very close to zero would be a good estimate.
I don't see as how that matters at all. People get married, stay married for 20some years, then get divorced - and then tell everyone they know how bad it was and how they would never do it again and how they don't want you to make the same mistakes they did. That isn't hypocritical. A hypocrite is someone who tells you how bad porn is, tries to keep others from viewing it, and persecutes people who perform in it - while keeping a secret stash under his mattress for quality alone time.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Aug 28 2009 : 2:42PM
+1 Thank you Michael. Also I think it would be nice if Jason said who he really is, as I do and you do. Instead of hiding behind a fake name and a computer. Come on Jason, we all want to know who you work for and who you really are. [/quote]
And i noticed HOLLYWOOD WOODY completely ignored the herpes,hpv,hepatitis,trichomonismPID, bacterial vaginosis,staph(MRSA) issue. Hollywoodm does VIVID test for these, wait, does VIVID have its p[erformers tested for this(of course Vivid doesnt do the testing) And if Vivid does no testing for these dieseases how could they possibly know if anyone is being exposed to any of them. And that urine gonn/chlam test does NOTHING to detect either of those diseases in the throat or anus. Anyone who is honest here knows that ignoring gonn/chlam in the throat and anus in this industry is despicable. And everyone knows that if they did monthly swabs of the throat and anus for gonn/chlam there would be ALOT more than just the 2000 infected performers in the last few years, as if 2000 infected perrormers isnt frightenign enough!! How much money did the industry spend to treat the 2000 infected performers over the last few year. Very close to zero would be a good estimate. [/quote] I noticed you completely ignored the request to reveal who you really are. Vivid is not a testing facility. It has it's performers do the usual industry tests. Maybe you should be directing these questions to the performers. Ask them what they get tested for. Now why don't you come out of the closet and tell us who you are and who you work for?
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Aug 28 2009 : 2:48PM
Ok, you got me. She isn't a hypocrite. She is an advocate for stopping porn in every way she can. She is the PETA of porn. Even though she made a living out of it. Even though she is making a living out of it now. If there was no porn, she would be out of a job.
Perhaps, or maybe she would then turn her religious avocation towards some other plight she relates to, there is no shortage of bad things happening to people in the world. Who knows, maybe she would just be happy. Mentioning Shelly Lubben on a porn forum should have a Godwin's Law tenet or something.
Hotwife Behaving Badly - review by bono-one
Posted - Aug 24 2009 : 2:51AM
