Did you stop buying Jimi Hendrix records after he died? What about The Dark Knight... did you avoid seeing it in the theatre since Heath Ledger passed away before it came out? Do you boycott Shakespeare plays because he died in 1616? People die, but the art lives on. Why shouldn't we have a chance to experience, enjoy and appreciate what they did, even after they've passed?
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Apr 8 2009 : 3:17AM
Didn't Haley Page admit to being gang-raped when she was a teen? That certainly 'complicates' any pleasure I can derive from watching her performances.
With respect, I believe that she disclosed she was a victim of a gang rape. IMHO, "admit" has connotations best associated with the perpetrators of crimes.
OK, then should they at least wait a few more years? I don't know about you, but the first thing I said when they started making movies about United 93 was, "Too soon." It doesn't bug me to watch Alex Jordan's scenes. Of course, the entire adult industry doesn't revolve around what I want, but it just kills it for me when the deceased performer is barely cold. Did you ever see The Pornographer?
Ethics, in pornography? A touch far-reaching, yes? Perhaps 80% of the people that would watch this girl fuck on film don't even know who she is. Like me. I've seen the name, but would not know her image without her name attached to her. Life moves on. Sometimes its best to mourn privately within one's own conscious.
17-yr-olds are like square roots, smart people do them in their heads 65 Posts 4/09
Posted - Apr 8 2009 : 2:41PM
a gang bang by definition is a collaboration. i think the word you're looking for is "corroborated." and if someone says something happens to them, instead of say newspaper quoting a source, corroboration isn't usually sought.
I used to lurk only in this forum, but Haley Page's death is a sad new to me, even if it happened almost 2 years ago. I was wondering today about Michelle B. and Haley Page, thinking that I was not seeing them in I while in new porn productions. Only today I discovered that Michelle no longer works in the business, but that Haley has died in some strange circumstances. I believe it's not a crime to watch scenes with Haley involved... on the web you can find even the movies that Traci Lord did perform in when she was not of the legal age :( BTW, it's really sad to me to learn of Haley death, even if it's so late. She always performed good sex, she had a killer body and in my opinion she could have been a star to remember. On the other hand, I never liked Chico movies, with too much violence and choking (I've seen only a pair of scenes from a Lewd conduct flick and that was enough to me)... I think it's no good for porn world that stars and directors die in such mysterious circumstances :( Excuse me for the long post and the bad english, that was the first time for me here on ADT.
Oh. OK. I saw a UFO land in my back yard last night and a bunch of little purple aliens came out and made me dinner. Because I say so, it must be true.
No matter what size the tits are....play with them.... 732 Posts 12/08
Posted - Apr 8 2009 : 6:05PM
From now on, everybody use spell check and proof read posts for grammar, There's a Claudzilla about. P.S try and use latin equivalent names when you can, it sometimes fools people into thinking your clever.
So, what you're saying is, if a friend told you that she had been raped several years ago, you wouldn't believe her until you tracked down the dude who she claims raped her, and asked him yourself? And then, assuming he said 'no' (which he likely would), you'd come back and call her a liar? Seeking sources is all well and good, but it just doesn't work that way with rape, man. Because it can't. There were only two people there, and one of them is never gonna fess up to it. A small percentage of women who have been raped actually go to the police, for a variety of reasons; so often the only choice is to believe the woman, or not believe her. And I think it would be a pretty sad state of affairs if we always demanded a police report or a confession from the dude when a woman tells someone she's been raped. And yes, some will say oh but what about the guy who has been unfairly accused of rape? It's not fair to him! Well, it's true, some men are unfairly accused of rape. But do any of us believe that number is far higher than the number of women who have been raped? I would imagine the answer is no. Plus, if someone has been unfairly accused, then we're probably at the police/trial stage already, which is a different scenario than what we're talking about here. Suddenly forensics and evidence and alibi etc come into play. Here, we're talking about the effect this rape has caused on a woman, and what to do about it for her well-being. And if the default was to call her a liar and/or crazy if she can't provide proof, then a lot of women won't get the help or counseling they need, and in fact their problems will be compounded, because not only was she raped many years ago and has been living with all of the problems that brought on, but now she is being ostracized by her friends and/or family because they have assumed she is a liar. Do you see what I'm saying here? In some situations, insisting on corroborating evidence isn't necessarily the right thing to do. And a woman telling of being raped several years ago is probably one of them.
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Apr 8 2009 : 7:11PM
I did mean corroboration. thanks. Pornstar interviews are notoriously unreliable. One can't tell, in this case, whether she was making her claim about a gang-bang in her personal life just to enhance her porn cred of being "nasty" or if it actually happened as she may have told it. That she ended up in an abusive relationship, could lead one to suppose that there may have been sexual abuse in her background, but that would be purely conjecture. Her story is a sad one. She had a very notable problem with drugs, and as I recall died of an od. You really can not depend on what an addict like her says, ever. Many people in all areas of the entertainment world have met similar ends. Many of us still listen to Janis Joplin music. No one worries about watching a Marilyn Monroe flick. I did not follow Halely, all that must to begin with. I don't go out of my way to find her scenes, but not for ethical reasons. It's mostly because I know of aspects of her story and it saddens me. It's not boner material for me. But I'm not constant about it. I had a real passion for Alex Jordan. She, sadly hung herself. I still wack-off to any scene I come across (I guess the pun is intended).
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - Apr 8 2009 : 10:41PM
Personally, I tend to believe that she was raped. Porn has been, is, and will be filled with emotionally unstable girls who have suffered some sort of sexual abuse/trauma. That's what leads them to do porn. Victims abuse themselves by overeating, doing drugs, and/or becoming extremely promiscuous. Rape victims suffering from self esteem issues are easy prey for less than reputable pornographers such as Chico Wang. They get sucked into the supposed "Porn is one big happy family" ideal and continue further down the spiral. In Haley's case if proved fatal.
It really depends but Haley wasn't a friend of mine. I never knew her. Never met her. And I definitely knew nothing of her as she was growing up. So what she said happened years before I ever became aware of her is (first of all) pretty irrelevant as to whether or not we should be OK with watching her movies that she made years after the fact. Secondly, a person can say anything they like and if you don't know them personally, how do you know whether or not it even happened? It's just not relevant because it (presumably) can't be proved or disproved anyway. If she was a friend I'd known for years, I would be more inclined to believe her than not or than to be sceptical. But people are trying to use this as a guilt trip on people who had nothing to do with it even if it did happen. I think we have a right to be sceptical.
17-yr-olds are like square roots, smart people do them in their heads 65 Posts 4/09
Posted - Apr 9 2009 : 12:33AM
@jettyman the point was not to be a grammar nazi, and since the Mod did a nice job of clearing up what I meant about how it is pretty much unnecessary to ask for corroboration of a girl's story about being raped I don't see the need to defend myself against your over sensitivity. And "claude" isn't the latin equivalent of "god" it just so happens that Claudius was declared a god after his death, which has nothing to do with the choice of my bs nickname that i came up with for a porn forum, anyways. If you want a latin/history nazi i can be that, too, but thanks for being a douce once again and taking such an interest in my posts that you feel it necessary to make unwarranted personal attacks. kindly go fuck yourself.
I don't like to fantasise about dead people in a sexual way because I think it's borderline necrophilia. That's my specific reason. You guys go do whatever you're doing.
17-yr-olds are like square roots, smart people do them in their heads 65 Posts 4/09
Posted - Apr 9 2009 : 1:09AM
I think many people may be uncomfortable because there is the possibility that Hailey's time in porn and bad experiences while in the industry led to her death. If she died in a car accident or of a lung infection or something I think people might feel differently.
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Apr 9 2009 : 1:27AM
You are certainly welcome to your opinion. But after all it is just that. There are no real facts before us that support your conclusion.
Are you stating matters of opinion or matters of fact in your remarkably lucid thumbnail sketch of the pr0n industry and your assessment of how victims of sexual abuse generally turn to maladaptive behaviors to cope with their experiences?
@RP: my whole thing with your post was that it just seemed so general. I mean it was a reply to a post that specifically took things away from Haley and moved them into a general context, and your reply about the UFOs certainly wasn't focused on Haley in particular either. So my concern was that the cynicism in your post could/would be applied to anyone/everyone, and that disturbed me. If you say you choose not to believe this woman in particular, that's fine, whatever, I won't try to convince you anything different, first because I don't know, and second because it's pretty much a non-issue now anyway, since she has passed. (Well, maybe not a non-issue for those who are trying to decide whether or not to watch her stuff based on whether or not she was actually raped; but I'm not one of those people.)
In general, I feel like the art created by anyone and our potential enjoyment of it is "complicated" (to use the word that blacksix used much earlier in this thread when he initially brought up the rape issue). Kurt Cobain suffered extreme stomach pains his whole life, and turned to hard drugs as a refuge. It was under the influence of these same drugs that he wrote much of his music. It was also under the influence of these same drugs that he descended into depression, paranoia, and eventually suicide. For Haley, sex was clearly a large part of her being, likely from both positive and negative experiences, and for a couple of years she chose to use what she knew to make pornography, and IMO, she was pretty good at it. Some may look at this situation and say "she was raped, and as such I can't enjoy it"; others may look at this situation and say "despite her being raped, she rose above those circumstances and channeled her energy into her performances, and as such I can enjoy it, appreciating what she was able to overcome". Honestly, I think it's fair to feel either way. I would say the second sentence, but if someone says the first, I understand where they're coming from, and I really can't blame them or hold it against them.
Seems to me, most aspire to the notion, that their life's work, or foremost effort of recognition, or achievement, transcends them, once beyond it. If Haley shared this sentiment in her untimely passing, then I see no reason, why I would wish to deny her of such an honor.
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - Apr 9 2009 : 11:14AM
AAAh, it's a matter of fact. Ever hear of the Oprah, Dr. Phil, and numerous other shows that have emotionally unbalanced people on that suffered a sexual trauma, lots of time at the hands of family members and become promiscuous because they are looking for love? Lots of girls in porn are the same way, they just happened to have drifted to porn. Numerous porn girls have been on the Stern show, and that's one of the 1st questions he asks. "Where you abused or raped?" The answer invariably comes back "yes." Are they all lying? Jenna says she was raped at least once in her book. Is she lying? Annie Cruz alludes to getting anally abused by a stepfather when she was barely a teen in one of her films. Is she lying? Girl after girl being interviewed always say that "the porn world is one big happy family" If a girl considers getting piledrivered and then felching out a creampie on film "one big happy family" then you can guarantee she comes from a rough background. These girls don't usually go on to bigger and better things, they go downward. Yumi is hooking in Denver somewhere, Shauna Grant, Megan Leigh, Savannah, Alex Jordan all killed themselves. Cyntheria(sp)also had issues, Chasey Lain did too, Bree Olson is melting down a lot lately. If I recall properly, Hailey Page wound up face down in the desert.
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Apr 9 2009 : 1:20PM
^You don't "tend" to believe facts. You either believe them or you don't. You have no objective way of knowing anything about Hailey Paige's life then you "know" about any other porn performer. You have no clear way of determining fact or fiction. Female porn performers are not by definition victims. I'm thinking about Stormy, Kylie, Jewell De'Nyle, Jessica Drake or Belladonna to name a few.
RF-- Not only have you answered my question definitively you've also laid to rest any thoughts I might have had on your credibility. I look forward to reading more of your posts.
No matter what size the tits are....play with them.... 732 Posts 12/08
Posted - Apr 9 2009 : 6:52PM
Claudzilla Wrote on a d/p thread: Apparently you (stoya) have had sex with him (Steve Holmes)off camera as well, which is you decision as there is no accounting for taste, ________________________________________________________________________________________ Claudzilla, I'm sorry I offended you Claudzilla, It was probably a knee jerk reaction on some personal comments on another thread about some of my favorite performers and the reaction to some posts on your original thread. I work in a high pressure medical environment with articulate staff with a wide use of vocabulary and terminology. I like to come on this forum for some information, observation, discussion and wit in a laid back way. latin equivalent names was not a poke at your user name, in my place of work, latin names are often used by younger doctors who have a point to prove rather than an anglo saxon name we are all familiar with, using latin and long words makes them feel superior around less educated staff. Anyway I am sober now, so sorry once again for offending you...J.
17-yr-olds are like square roots, smart people do them in their heads 65 Posts 4/09
Posted - Apr 10 2009 : 12:55AM
@Jettyman I think we both come from the same angle in that we deal with a lot of posturing at our respective workplaces. Apology accepted and frustration understood. My comment about Stoya fucking Steve was tongue in cheek, and I think its a good example of how tone can be lost in these forums and can make for some misunderstanding especially with the culture of Trolls lurking around the forum.
She did this scenes for you guys and girls to jerk off. So lets do it in honor of her. Steve Holmes
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - Apr 10 2009 : 12:50PM
First, I believe what she was saying that she was raped. Do you feel better? Secondly, How do you know? You don't! I"m going by printed reports, interviews, BTS info. The only reason I don't footnote is because I'm not getting graded here and I don't have to worry about plagiarism charges. Why would these girls make up abuse stories? Does that mean that every girl that claims to be raped wasn't? Lastly, do you know every minute detail about the performer's lives that you listed to make such claims, or only going by what they've said in an interview? Maybe those listed aren't victims maybe they are, you don't know, but it's kind of amusing that you didn't comment on the examples that I provided. Edited by - rosco fuji on 4/10/2009 1:05:19 PM
^ Rosco, saying that someone was a victim of some form of sexual abuse, or even repeated abuses, and claiming that her personality and/or actions is/are that of a victim, are not the same thing. You've made quite a leap from your two pieces of evidence 1. "a handful of performers that I can think of have told stories of being sexually abused" and 2. "I've seen plenty of stories in mainstream media etc that say that victims of sexual abuse can often turn to unhealthy behaviours, potentially including sexual promiscuity, later in life", to making your conclusion (in your words):Further, listing four or five stars who have committed suicide amongst the tens of thousands of women who have been porn performers over the last 35 or so years, is not a lot of evidence that porn performers have a propensity for committing suicide. I'm sure we can find more mainstream actors, musicians, dancers, doctors or lawyers who have also taken their lives in that time period. Now I'm not posting this to say that you're either right or wrong. I've never met a single porn star, so I know nothing of the topic. I'm posting this to say that your claims are lacking in the logic department.
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - Apr 11 2009 : 3:11PM
^ I'll disagree with you that my examples are lacking in the logic dept. I could easily do my PhD on this topic. Issues of emotional/substance abuse go way back in porn, it's not limited to a few people. Go back and read my main post. Your 1st paragraph makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Secondly, those aren't my words in paragraph 2 to prove paragraph 3, which I stand by but you didn't include the 2nd half of. Also eliminate your comparisons to mainstream performers, the creative focus of mainstream performers is completely different than the motivations of a porn performer and can't be used as a comparative basis. You can also eliminate the 95 % of porn performers who are the one and done types who did a porn shoot because they thought they'd be the next Tera overnight, or did one to piss off mommy and daddy. The examples I listed were just the ones that were on the top of my head without doing any real thought or research. I could easily rattle of 4-5 more examples of performers with issues, but that's irrelevant. At least one is a current big star. The original thread was about Hailey Page and the nay sayers claiming that she was lying about being raped, I was just offering my belief that she wasn't lying. [mod edit: removed quote, since it's right above this post.] Edited by - killbillvol69 on 4/11/2009 5:34:53 PM
^ Ok Rosco, let's go back to your original post in its entirety then. Again, bearing in mind that I'm not trying to disagree with your conclusion, in general or in particular as it applies to Haley... I still want to point out why I think you got to it in a faulty way:Originally I had quoted only your second sentence there, and I did so because I thought it summed up what you were trying to say, and what I had a problem with. But we'll look further. The very next sentence says: "That's what leads them to do porn." So, you're saying that because the women had suffered some sort of sexual abuse/trauma, they wound up in porn (through whatever set of circumstances). In other words, the sexual abuse/trauma was the main factor for them winding up in porn. Now, I have no problem believing that someone can suffer some sort of sexual abuse/trauma, and through some set of circumstances related to that sexual abuse/trauma, wind up pursuing a career in pornography. My problem is with the statement "Porn has been, is, and will be filled with..." these types of girls. In other words, your phrasing makes it seem as if that's the only reason, or at least the most common reason, why a woman would pursue a career in pornography. That is what I'm challenging. Did Haley suffer some sort of abuse, then have her life go in bad directions as a result, first pursuing pornography for 'all the wrong reasons', if you will, and eventually leading to a problematic marriage with a questionable man, and finally, to her death? I don't know. Could be. I wouldn't have a hard time believing it I guess. But is this the most common story of women who pursue a career in pornography? That I have no reason to believe. And that is where I feel you made your leap in logic. The rest is just extra stuff added on to your (and my) post. [edit: wrote "then" instead of "they".] Edited by - killbillvol69 on 4/11/2009 5:36:36 PM
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Apr 11 2009 : 8:40PM
It is not so much about your logic, though I could argue on that basis as well, but your lack of facts. You provide no evidence that emotional/substance abuse is more prevalent in porn then it is in the general population. As far as Haily Paige is concerned you have no verifiable proof that she was gang raped other then some interview that you may or may not have read somewhere. If indeed she gave such an interview, you can not say that a statement like that wasn't made to hype some scene she was in. Further more the thread is about whether it is ethical to watch her scenes now that she has passed. As I said before, your opinions are as valid as anyone's, just do us a favor and stop claiming them as fact. Edited by - Clam Digger on 4/11/2009 8:42:35 PM
I'm not very sure that a background of sexual abuse is over-represented in porn. But the women in porn naturally get a lot of questions about sex, and I can't believe the answer to this rape question any more or less than any other. I still enjoy her scenes, and to me it seems fair to think she wouldn't want to be totally forgotten. And besides, are you supposed to keep up with which performer is no longer performing? For whatever that reason may be? Not saying I don't care, just that I suck at following porn news and will most likely miss a thing like this.
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - Apr 12 2009 : 1:18PM
Clam Digger wrote:It is not so much about your logic, though I could argue on that basis as well, but your lack of facts. You provide no evidence that emotional/substance abuse is more prevalent in porn then it is in the general population. As far as Haily Paige is concerned you have no verifiable proof that she was gang raped other then some interview that you may or may not have read somewhere. If indeed she gave such an interview, you can not say that a statement like that wasn't made to hype some scene she was in. As I said before, your opinions are as valid as anyone's, just do us a favor and stop claiming them as fact. Edited by - Clam Digger on 4/11/2009 8:42:35 PM
Click to expand
Why keep dragging in the general population? I haven't claimed that abuse is more prevelant in porn than the general population. It's about porn and the girls doing porn. I've never claimed my opinions as fact. What I've claimed as fact are Jenna's written claims about being raped, Annie Cruz's stepfather analizing her at a young age as she claimed in a video, the girls going on Stern answering his questions about being abused or raped, emotionally unstable girls in porn committing suicide, etc. Go back and read my posts, you'll find my only opinion is me expressing belief that Haley was raped. Edited by - rosco fuji on 4/12/2009 1:21:05 PM
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - Apr 12 2009 : 1:36PM
I see what you are saying in rebuttal and see how you disagree, but you also need to include the next 2 sentences. In hindsight, I should have put those two sentences before the "Thats what leads them" line for better continuity and a stronger arguement. My bad.
Perhaps it's the same kind of thing where a husband divorces and leaves his wife, after someone raped her. Just because some criminals raped her doesn't mean that now she is damaged goods. And every honest man must stay away from any voluntary sexual relationship with her. I'd say that discriminating against such a porn lady, when she is willing and ready, is unethical. Because this is victimizing her twice for no good reason.
And I see better what you're saying both from this post and your post above it. In my eyes, we're cool. [edit: added quote cuz Dan snuck in there in the middle while I was posting] Edited by - killbillvol69 on 4/12/2009 3:42:01 PM
For the record, I do not have a stepfather nor have I ever been raped in my entire life. Anything that I have ever "eluded" to in a movie regarding any form of sexual abuse is completely FICTITIOUS and done for the sake of the director or the movie.
That's an odd thing to request of a performer. It's somewhat disturbing to think that any director would think that somehow adds to a viewer's arousal, stories of sexual abuse. And that must be what they believe, otherwise they wouldn't ask that you say something untrue. [Link]
Posted - Apr 8 2009 : 3:03AM
