I hope no on gets offended at your question either. Although bestiality is... definitely not my bag in any kind of real sense, here are a couple interesting articles on the subject. How accurate they are... well, that remains in question. :)

"The Girls' Guide to the HOTTEST Sex Experience on the Planet!" & "A Woman's Guide to Canine Sex"

Mike L.

[edit - for spelling error--not that there aren't more...]

Edited by - MLyons on 1/21/2003 9:52:54 PM

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Sex with animals dates back forever, and is depicted in all sorts of archeological artifacts. From the little that I understand, it used to be common practice, and nothing much was thought of it, thousands of years ago - just as it was common in ancient greece for men to openly consort with boys. (For instance, I once read about a native indian tribe that thought it normal to allow teenage boys, if they must release their sexual desires prior to being involved with a girl, to go and "practice" with animals.)

It seems to be more prevalent today than most people think (or, at least, the same minority is getting more vocal), with the biggest "debate" going on between the media/law who are outraged at the cruelty to animals that's being displayed, and "true" zoophiles who are outraged over the suggestion that they could ever be cruel. Of course, behind all of this, it's probably more about simple horrified sensibilities than it really is about actual abuse. (Although, I suppose it would be hard to tell if anything were concensual or not!)

I suspect that a large number of sexual practices were "banned" and went underground during the periods around the inquisition and the witchcraft trials. Anything not strictly puritanical and "Christian" was seen as evidence of evil and devil worship / possession. It seems that we're only now, as a society, recovering from that era of social conditioning.

I don't have statistics or anything, but I've certainly noticed an increasing supply of animal related pornography offered online (Web sites and online European retailers) in the past decade. Then again, just about every kind of sexual behaviour has seen an increase in availability in the past decade, so perhaps that doesn't mean much.

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I learn something new every day!

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Well, that's one of the reasons why we're here isn't it? :)

Mike L.

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Now I'm not as worried about being old and widowed.

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anyway, she decides to be curious one day and see what was on the videos that the guy had had in his vcr. she is a porn lover herself and always watches some of my stuff from time to time. she IS having a hard time finding realistic lesbian porn, but that's beside the point...

so she presses play or whatever and there she sees this guy, letting a DOG lick his cock. she freaks out and like calls her girlfriend in the room. her girlfriend rushes in right as the guy like CUMS on the dog. both shriek and call my friend Adam. they immediately turn it off and Kayla is like crying because she cannot believe he would own something like that. not only that, that she was STAYING with him!

so Adam comes over (the guy is a nurse like Kayla so he works long hours so Adam knew he wouldn't be home soon) and Adam IMMEDIATELY wants to see what the hubub is about. only once he sees the puppy stuff, he presses FAST FORWARD. i'm sorry, but i think i would too. i have never seen animal sex and freaky shit piques my curiosity...

so he like gets to this one part and they all threw bust up laughing. Adam said there was this guy fucking a cow and like the cow looked drugged up.

i asked them if the video came with a warning that said "no animals were harmed during the making of this film"

no wonder they wanna clone sheep...

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baaah

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There are over three billion adults in the world -- and if you look around, sometimes you see people who pretty much look like certain animals anyway -- so why anyone would turn to real animals is a mystery to me.

(I find it funny that folkyboy is apologizing for offending any people that like to have sex with animals. Shouldn't it be the other way around?)

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It's funny, because, in some States, oral sex is illegal. So is anal sex for that matter.

I think that the ONLY sexual practice that is illegal world-wide is pedophelia - for good reason.

If you go to the Netherlands everything else is accepted as part of their society - even if not by all individuals. Go to Amsterdam, and walk into an adult video store, sex shop, or just down the open street where vendors have sidewalk stalls set up, and there's almost nothing you won't find available. This goes for other things too. You can order and smoke marijuana in bars, and walk down the street drinking beer or wine.

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As far as pedophilia being taboo, from my wonderful anthro. classes; parts of the world practice what I would consider pedophilia. In the Yucatan, we discussed certain societies that traded 12- 13 yr old girls for cattle and if the girl died you get her sister. But the cattle were for EATING and the girl was for MARRIAGE.

I would think that bestiality is by far one of the most out of touch with reality sexual fetishes; even Necrophilia is still with humans. Humping botanicals might be lower on the totem pole, then humping inanimate objects like warm exhaust pipes, etc.

I unfortunately witnessed the 'donkey show' in Tijuana in a drunken haze, it was one of the most surreal, awful experiences of my life...

Edited by - P-Knuckle on 1/21/2003 2:37:57 PM

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Of course in Texas it is still illegal to have oral sex between members of the same sex.

As for me...Yucck! Not only is interspecies sex unappealing it's non-consensual.

Kurt Hardy

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Okay, just a general comment.

Please be careful to distinguish between making objective statements and expressions of personal opinion.

These forums are supposed to be accepting of (or, at worst, offer support to) people from all walks of life with all manner of desires / fetishes.

To some people anal sex is incredibly disgusting, others draw the line at sado-masochism. A lot of people couldn't care less for sex play involving excrement (liquid or solid). Yet, there ARE people who are turned on by some or all of these things, and they need to not be made to feel as if there's something evil and corrupt about their desires or, perhaps, more specifically, something evil and corrupt about them .

What people do in the privacy of their own home is none of our business and, if it brings satisfaction to all parties involved without hurting anybody, then there should be nothing wrong with that.

Even though homophobia still runs rampant in our society, you're no longer, by and large, considered to be abberant or "in need of help" if you express some kind of interest in homosexuality or bisexuality. Which is a big step forward from 50 years ago.

If we don't allow people to freely admit their desires (even if we, personally, do not care for them or find them offensive in our own lives), then there will always be an atmosphere of repression and guilt. This is what keeps pornography in the closet as it is, and what is keeping us from the free and healthy enjoyment of our sexuality. (Although I see this slowly changing.)

If you don't like a practice, by all means go ahead and say, "That's not for me." Even go ahead and say, "Personally, I don't see what the attraction is - it just seems so wrong." But there should always be the awareness that everybody is unique and different and that we all come here and read these forums, participate in them, in the hope and understanding that we won't be ridiculed for whatever it is that we feel. If even one person or belief is attacked on an emotional basis because of our own personal feelings against it then we all lose.

I don't say any of this as an administrator (I'm not) but as somebody who enjoys reading and contributing to posts here in an atomosphere of congeniality and understanding of differing viewpoints. I'm well aware that this particular subject is a "hot topic" - but that's all the more reason to be careful of how you respond.

After years of participating in online discussion, I've got a tough skin and I rarely take anything personally. However, if I hadn't had any such experience and I'd posted newcomer Yumi's question out of curiosity in order to get some feedback, I might be inclined to take it personally. (I think that MLyon's response was exactly the kind of response that everybody should get.)

If I'm out of line in making these comments, I apologize.

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But I do get your point on the consensual issue. In fact, that's the very thing that everybody understands when it comes to children. (Although I'm not too sure that anybody, myself included, would be entirely happy if it could somehow be conclusively proven that a given child did fully understand, desire, and give consent for, what was happening, and that they had the emotional/mental maturity of any adult of the age of consent. Even accepting that premise, my "gut" still has a problem with the scenario.)

On the other side of the coin, interspecies-wise, it's more accurate to say (I think) that it's not objectively provable that it's consensual. (Who knows what goes on in the other's mind.)

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Welcome to the forum Yumi, thanks for posing such an interesting question.

And to put out the sparks threatening to start a flame war allow me to put on my moderator hat for a moment.

This is an open forum, and most if not all topics, regardless of how taboo are welcome to be discussed. It's natural for all of us to have differing opinions and you are welcome to express them but you MUST respect others opinions as well.
Please, think before you post. If beastiality is something that makes you queese or you are morally against, that's fine, then refrain from posting because most likley your contribution will be inflamitory and turn the thread negetive.
Thank you. (*soapbox put away)

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Just because it'll make me feel better to say something further on this topic, let me be clear that first of all I think every person in this thread has expressed a valid point of view. My personal interest in bestiality is purely from a specific fantasy standpoint--in my head. I don't have any interest in its actual execution and in fact am disgusted by it. I respect that it's illegal in (most of?) the US, and in fact certainly agree with that law for the reasons expressed here. If people here think my thoughts and fantasies are wrong, or something to be ashamed of then so be it. I don't think they are and I don't think my thought process should be used as evidence in judgement against my character.

To bring this full circle, I don't think Yumi's question should bring judgement against her character either. I'm not certain anyone here is doing this, but it's important to me that I express this point of view, because it's what _I_ try very hard to practice. Even topics like "murder" are relative terms and while under almost all circumstances I think it's a hideous and abhorent act, there might be circumstances like in the case of war or capital punishment where some people may believe it to be a justified and acceptable practice. The point is that I'm not God. I don't know the answers or truly what is right and wrong. Even the most apparently abhorent act may, under a particular set of circumstances, be deemed acceptable by some people.

That said... to contribute further to this discussion, _I_ believe bestiality as an actual practice to be rape and a complete turn off. I believe it is not socially responsible and should be against the law. I'm always open to others' opinions though and no one in the world has the power, or the authority to control what goes on in my head, which I consider completely free to wander wherever it likes.

Again, Yumi, you are welcome here. And your question is an interesting and very controversial one which I think has elicited valid thoughts from everyone in this thread. I hope you're not scared off by us--I believe that we are not attacking _you_, only the topic presented.

There's my aimlessly wandering post that I'm sure I'll regret, but it was important to me to clarify my thoughts as well as to expound on my original post in this thread.

Mike L.

Edited by - MLyons on 1/21/2003 10:01:18 PM

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You can replace "X" in the above with any subject at all. It shouldn't matter. The point is that I strongly believe that anybody here should feel free to express their desires for anything, and know that they won't be judged - they may even expect to some communication and support (support not necessarily for their desire, but in terms of dealing with it and understanding it).

You can still hold some things "in abhorration" yet discuss the topic in an open and accepting fashion. (Accepting to the person involved in the discussion.)

If somebody gets their kicks by looking at certain imagery, we can question their choices, but we can't deny their personal reaction.

Speaking about myself, I enjoy watching and reading murder mysteries and thrillers. What's sometimes portrayed is the graphic killing of another human being as part of the plot. There's no question in my mind that killing is wrong. So why should I enjoy movies and books that have this in them? Surely, if it were so abhorrant such movies would not be made. Still, it gets my adrenalin going and gives me a thrill. I "console" myself with the fact that it's fictional, as if that somehow makes my enjoyment of the act any more reasonable.

Are there limits, in those scenes in movies and books, at which I'll draw the line and turn it off, walk out, close the covers? No doubt. There have been some scenes that have made me intensely uneasy. (There was an extremely unsettling scene in The Cook, The Thief, His Wife, And Her Lover where a young boy was tortured. Some people did leave the theatre. But I still "enjoyed" the movie (it's a great piece of art) and, ironically, the very fact that it was so unsettling is what made it so enjoyable.)

But, yes, I imagine that there would be some things I simply could not stand to look at. (I hope I don't ever encounter an example.) Still, that would be my personal cut-off. Some people would be able to, while others would have stopped before I did. Everybody has different reactions / limits.

So, while I may personally find something distasteful, I let other people react to things as they wish.

As MLyons said, there are even some circumstances under which murder may be considered "acceptable" - capital punishment, self defence, and so on.

As for sex with animals always implying rape, I'm not at all sure that we can say that. Just look at the gray areas. It would depend on the situation, exactly what occurs, and so on. Are we to say that those farmers who breed horses and get off on watching the stallions mate with the mares are somehow involved in the rape of the mares by the stallions? What if a group of farmers got together and masturbated as they watched the mating process? You might consider this to be unusual (and it might disturb you personally to hear about it) but would you want to lock them up for expressing their own sexual desires in that fashion? Or what about vets who collect semen samples from dogs by masturbating them to orgasm? Are the dogs not enjoying themselves? Are they being harmed? Every animal mates and has sexual reactions, and most likely enjoys it. (Except, perhaps, for male giant pandas who I understand are extremely non-horny and the cause of their incipent extinction - but I digress.)

The real objection to sex with animals (as I see it) is twofold. One, the fear that it's rape (how can you tell it isn't), and two, a simple gut-level reaction that it's just wrong (this may be based on emotion, religion, philosophy, or a number of other things). But the first isn't necessarily 100% in every case, and the second is a personal reaction.

Now, actually acting on something (such as a murderous impulse) would be a different story. Somebody can have pedophilic fantasies, recognize that actually acting on them is completely wrong, and still lead a healthy life. Depending on how in control and aware of things the person is, they could be no more a danger to others than a "normal" person. (It's only those people who have actually acted on their impulses, or who will do so, who need to be watched.)

...and how many words have I just written in a single post now? I think it's time for me to head to bed...

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Yeah, skronker, what HAVE I gotten myself into? Hehe, oh well, my attitude towards these kinds of things has always been...whatever makes you happy...as long as you're mindful of others' feelings...Er...I dunno if that can still apply to bestiality, but I don't feel as strongly about it as others do. I just don't wanna get into an argument!

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I, too, am a little surprised that it's not at least on equal footing taboo-wise, if not less accepted. Even if the "child" in a parent/child relationship is grown up, you'd still think that there'd be a lot more negative reaction to it wouldn't you?

Edited by - Mythsong on 1/22/2003 11:51:50 AM

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????????????

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as for now, i see erodvd in holland always has an assortment of "dog & pony" flix for sale.

Edited by - menace on 1/22/2003 4:20:06 PM

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Given the politically influenced court, my hopes for it's over-turning are slim. However, it is encouraging that they even offered to hear the case, since it has gone to the Supreme Court before on privacy grounds and was thrown out as a states matter.

On the beastiality front, I once saw one of those 8mm films with a wolf hound and a woman. Did absolutely nothing for me, except make me want to wash my eyes. Never have looked at my dogs the same way though.

Kurt

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Karl

I'm not a pervert, but I play one on TV.

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While that's certainly not a good argument FOR sex (at best, it's just a lesser of two evils - which still doesn't make it right on those merits alone) it is an interesting point.

Animals are horribly mistreated every day in the course of such things - yet it's perfectly legal, and nobody bats an eye. Anybody who was really concerned about animal welfare should, possibly, be getting on a few other bandwagons first. But, for some reason, we all grow up thinking that, as Homer Simpson puts it, meat comes from that "magical place" - the grocery store aisle.

Such a violent reaction against bestiality, while ignoring the above, just shows how conditioned as a society we are to the more "mundane" mistreatments.

It also makes me think that it's not as much a rebellion against harm to the animal that's at the root of people's objection, so much as simply a rebellion against the idea of the act itself. (The fact that the animal "must always be being abused" is really, to some degree anyway, a convenient rationalization that doesn't entirely stand up under close scrutiny.) But the emotional reaction, despite that, is still a perfectly legitimate personal statement.

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http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/08/police.kill.dog/index.html

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Rather than dismiss anyone's negative reaction to bestiality as 'emotional' I decided to learn more about it -

From The Humane Society -
"Many animal sexual abusers are similar to pedophiles. They'll defend their actions by stating that their victims consent. The fact is, no child or animal is capable of consenting to sexual activity with an adult human being. Kim Roberts, MSW, The Humane Society US. "

Also -
Hani Miletski, Ph.D., MSW American Association of Sex Educators, Counselors and Therapists recently completed studies and recently authored a book on Zoophilia stated:
"Pedophiles and animal sexual abusers share very similar profiles with one another. In most cases both types of abusers coherce or overpower their victims to gain control. The victims in both are non-consenting, but the offenders will attempt to justify "how the victim gave them consent"

According to a 1986 study, forty percent of the perpetrators of sexually motivated homicides who had been sexually abused as children also reported that they had sexually abused animals (Ressler, et al. 1986). In 1999 the MO Dept. of Corrections administered a polygraph to 116 Sex Offenders that were on parole/probation. In that test 50% admitted they at one time had sex with an animal

From The Animals Agenda
.. an animal becomes the exclusive focus of a human's desires. Although many medical terms have been applied to a fixation on gratification with animals, those who engage in this prefer to be known as zoophiles, a word borrowed, ironically, from the animal protection community. The zoophile's world view is similar to the rapist's and child sexual abuser's. They all view the physical gratifications they have with their victims as consensual, and they believe it benefits their partners as well as themselves. We must draw the line at zoophilia, or pedophilia (and dare I say one day- an axe murderer's support group?) is next in line for 'rights and acceptance' .

Finally, from Columbia University's Health Question and Answer Service
"It's virtually impossible for animals to consent to sex with humans, and these acts are illegal in most places. If animals become the focus of one's sexual attention and activity it's time to call a mental health counselor in your area to explore what's on your mind: concerns, motivations, etc."

They don't see any 'gray area' in this. I'm gonna take their word for it.

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Also that that the only male dog I have owned was neutered. Just to clarify!

Going a bit further, I am a vegetarian, and I think it's really important to spay and neuter.

Edited by - lindi on 1/24/2003 2:24:13 PM

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Suffice it to say that you can always find a study / report to support any point of view you want. (Just like, to bring up another hot topic, Diane Sawyer mentioned how most adult peformers had been sexually mistreated as children, explaining why these "poor people" do what they do...)

Hmm. I just can't resist a specific response:

Finally:

After all, I don't see any dog being objectively able to consent to being fed either... However, the wagging tail, happy demeanour, and seemingly energetic participation in their partaking of the food bowl seems a good indication that they did consent or, at least, enjoy their food. If a dog wags its tail, has a happy demeanour, and is seemingly an energetic participant is some kind of sexual activity - should that not also indicate a similar state of mind?

(You didn't respond to my specific point in an earlier post about vets and semen collection. Would these studies you mention somehow support the view that such vets are sexually abusing the animals because they didn't give their consent to the procedure?)

Edited by - Mythsong on 1/24/2003 3:39:50 PM

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Please, someone post one actual medical finding that states that bestiality isn't a serious mental disorder and completely devoid of humanity and sensibility.

Just because we can talk about something calmly doesn't rationalize it (and I feel its quite fake to keep ones' emotions on ice to make anyone feel okay, you won't see me hold back ever;) and I frankly think that pretending to not be disgusted by this is preponderous. If I made a post saying that sex with children is okay and then ask people to respect my opinion on it without passing judgement, well, then I would have to also accept that I painted myself into a corner with big brushstrokes of bullshit artistry.

Dumblonde made the terrific point way earlier in the post, "We're so 'non-judgmental' now that people who have had the good sense to point out that we're talking about the rape of animals are made to feel badly?"

This does not involve privacy nor choice; it involves the concept of taking something that is not in your species and using it for sexual satisfaction. If you can justify that, than I am REALLY happy for you. By the way, I hope you all enjoy my next post, which is about the joys of fucking the dead; please don't pass judgement on me, I expect all of you to respect my opinion.

Edited by - P-Knuckle on 1/24/2003 4:29:32 PM

Edited by - P-Knuckle on 1/24/2003 5:47:45 PM

Edited by - P-Knuckle on 1/24/2003 5:49:07 PM

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Edited by - momojames on 1/24/2003 6:09:34 PM

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