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Party's Over, The - review by Sean DPS| Author | Post |
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| fanofman Senior Member 2053 Posts 9/15 |  Posted - Jan 14 2017 : 9:36AMGreg Lansky (see below) calls adult performers artists. Do you agree? Are they are artists?
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| NomnoMnOm Member 379 Posts 5/15 | Posted - Jan 14 2017 : 9:39AM [Link] |
| fanofman Senior Member 2053 Posts 9/15 | Posted - Jan 14 2017 : 9:41AM [Link] |
Goldstein  All-Star Member "You have sacrificed nothing and no one." 3689 Posts 8/10 | Posted - Jan 14 2017 : 12:28PM But, look at the sheer numbers of scenes being produced vs. the ones that are actually really good. Then, look at the girls that are consistently the ones showing-up in the really good scenes. This is not an accident. Moral of the story: Being the pretty new thing sucking cock only takes one so far. Having talent keeps you working. But, the true artists are the ones that keep getting better, and obviously care about refining their skills, "look" and the ability to sell it. [Link] |
| pat362 Senior Member 10083 Posts 3/10 | Posted - Jan 14 2017 : 12:29PM [Link] |
| Karnivore Member 261 Posts 7/16 | Posted - Jan 14 2017 : 12:41PM [Link] |
| Goldstein All-Star Member "You have sacrificed nothing and no one." 3689 Posts 8/10 | Posted - Jan 14 2017 : 12:53PM (Think high-end call girls, premium escorts and the "girlfriend experience") Even dedicated streetwalkers. Girls turning tricks for drug-money, probably not so much. [Link] |
| pat362 Senior Member 10083 Posts 3/10 | Posted - Jan 14 2017 : 1:02PM Edited by - pat362 on 1/14/2017 1:03:32 PM [Link] |
| Goldstein All-Star Member "You have sacrificed nothing and no one." 3689 Posts 8/10 | Posted - Jan 14 2017 : 1:19PM C'est la vie  [Link] |
| SP_Love Senior Member "Freaky Deakies Need Love Too" 1181 Posts 2/11 | Posted - Jan 14 2017 : 1:23PM By definition a performer is an artist. It takes some skill to know how to entertain an audience. "Twist Your Head Around; It's All Around You" [Link] |
| fanofman Senior Member 2053 Posts 9/15 | Posted - Jan 14 2017 : 2:12PM Edited by - fanofman on 1/14/2017 2:19:52 PM [Link] |
| Sexy Sadie All-Star Member I came to turn on everyone 978 Posts 6/10 | Posted - Jan 14 2017 : 3:09PM The current trend is to say everyone can be, or is, an artist. Blech! I prefer to think that the artist's subject is art, being a self-conscious discourse where technique and intellect inform the production of an aesthetic that interrogates both the subjectivity of creation and the objectivity of the created. Unless the 'artist' is consciously engaging in this discourse, they're not even reaching first base. An artist can be unsuccessful in their project and still be an artist. A technician who successfully mimics form is not an artist. Technical virtuosity is not art per se. There is no reason why pornography could not be a site where art is produced, but it would take an artist to do so, not the personnel of the porn industry who are engaged in the production of income. Yeah. Elitist. [Link] |
| Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01 | Posted - Jan 14 2017 : 3:13PM Yes adult performers are artists and adult movies are an art form. You are watching a theatrical scene not real life. Yes, adult movies are art. I treat them as such in my reviews. [Link] |
| Gore Gore Girl Doctor of the Erotic Arts 7238 Posts 1/09 | Posted - Jan 14 2017 : 4:32PM [Link] |
| Dragon Sign Deactivated User 3381 Posts 12/13 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 8:46AM Why the fuck did they call them makeupartists in the first place if there was nothing to it? [Link] |
| elgringoviejo1958 Senior Member From the land of peasant living 1152 Posts 12/16 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 8:53AM [Link] |
| NomnoMnOm Member 379 Posts 5/15 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 9:51AM [Link] |
| fanofman Senior Member 2053 Posts 9/15 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 9:56AM Edited by - fanofman on 1/15/2017 9:58:05 AM [Link] |
| Dragon Sign Deactivated User 3381 Posts 12/13 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 10:43AM [Link] |
| fanofman Senior Member 2053 Posts 9/15 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 11:06AM [Link] |
| killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18634 Posts 4/08 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 12:49PM I wouldn't agree with this. I think that you can certainly be an artist in any of those occupations. But I don't think that pursuing any of them makes one automatically an artist. It is possible to be just a person going through the motions, with no thought whatsoever to the presentation, or delivery, or aesthetic, or reception, or whatever else. Anyway, back to porn. Ultimately, I think that if you are an artist, you're doing it either for free, or for free and for money. I don't think you're an artist if the only time you turn on your art is when the paycheque is available. How many painters only paint if someone has commissioned their art? Very few. Most painters paint as a hobby, and if someone sees it or someone doesn't, isn't so much the important part. They sell what someone wants to buy, they keep the rest. How many musicians write tons of songs that never make it to tape? Most of them. So, translating this to pornography, what is the art? Is it the sex? Then we're all artists, so in that case calling someone an artist really has no meaning. Is it the pretense of enjoying the sex? If so, then pretty much every woman who has ever faked an orgasm is an artist in the same way. Is it the filming of the sex? If so, then they should be filming sex for their own personal reasons, and then sometimes filming for a scene. There are performers who do this. But not all performers do this. I don't think that just having sex on camera (or even "performing" on camera) makes you an artist. But I think there are people who have made art out of having sex on camera. And they are artists. [Link] |
| fanofman Senior Member 2053 Posts 9/15 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 12:55PM [Link] |
| killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18634 Posts 4/08 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 12:57PM [Link] |
| Sexy Sadie All-Star Member I came to turn on everyone 978 Posts 6/10 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 1:12PM The entertainer/artist distinction also contributes to the discussion. [Link] |
| misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 1:17PM Edited by - misspornUSA on 1/15/2017 1:24:09 PM [Link] |
| LPee23 All-Star Member Better to be pissed on, than to be pissed off. 248 Posts 1/15 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 1:50PM If a model is putting on an inspired performance, than they should be considered a performance artist. If a model is just going through the motions of a scene, with no engagement in her performance, than they are not really a performance artist. At the same time, if a photographer just shoots some careless snapshots, or if a videographer just sets a camera on a tripod and lets it roll, then they are not shooting art. If they work to shoot an aesthetically beautiful or powerful scene, with thought to composition, then they are a visual artist. Some content is clearly not art, like dick pics shot in a iPhone. Some content could be considered art, just maybe not good art. Then there are the select photos which seem good enough to hang in a gallery of nude portraits. Last summer I saw the Robert Mapplethorpe exhibit at the Getty, and it was memorable because it touched on this very subject. In a room labeled for adults only, they displayed his "X Collection." It documented his BDSM lifestyle featuring him and his friends, and it included acts such as anal fisting and watersports. It has hung on the walls of many an art museum. Look at photos from the more artistic sites, like Bob Coulter's photos from CrazyBabe.com, Frannie Adams' photos from the closed site BodyParts.biz, Eric Kroll's photos from the long lost sites EricKroll.com and Fetish-USA.com, Jean-Paul Four's photos from EroticaShot.com, or John B. Root's photos from Explicite-Art.com. These photos upend the notion that there is any distinction between porn and art. [Link] |
| Dragon Sign Deactivated User 3381 Posts 12/13 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 3:56PM Very few has got that power on a daily frequent basis all the time, on a good day some more, every now and then, a lot. Lexington Steele has got it, too. Chris Strokes is getting close. But the power, well Mark Ashley was in an own league. Erik Everhard was there, too. James Deen was on a roll for a very long time, still is. Longtimers will remember the members of some other, but they weren't that frequent as Steele and Ashley. Those two individuals have yet to do negative things in front of camera. He was named a workhorse in a thread around here. If he was, he was a champion. There are so many other workhorses. Some even won't fight all the way home, and will lay on the back, start to act sour, doing negative things. And this is not a race from which to pick a winner, this is about champions acting like artists. [Link] |
| killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18634 Posts 4/08 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 4:16PM [Link] |
| misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 4:31PM The combination of camera and performance is performance art. Now, some of the performers within that art form are more or much more committed to their identity as performance artists than others, as are some directors. Some grow fully into that identity while others don't. However, they are all actors. Most would agree that acting is an art form, even if plenty of people in LA are simply acting for the paycheck. Their art might suffer because it is soulless, it may be downright shitty art, but nonetheless an actor is an artist by virtue of their participation within an art form. Adult performers act with their entire body, their voice, etc. in front of the camera as part of a production. Of course they are performance artists. [Link] |
| killbillvol69 All-Star Member ^Lucy Pinder 18634 Posts 4/08 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 5:47PM In this case, I think it can be summed up that the fact that they are doing it for the camera makes it performance art. Perhaps the next question becomes (and I don't want to debate this at length either, just throwing it out there for discussion): Is there a difference between "performance", and "performance art"? And if so, what is it? [Link] |
| Dragon Sign Deactivated User 3381 Posts 12/13 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 6:16PM [Link] |
| Sexy Sadie All-Star Member I came to turn on everyone 978 Posts 6/10 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 6:22PM 1. Art is art regardless of the form it takes; 2. Compliance with formal elements does not pre-determine the existence of art. 3. 'Art form' is not a categorical imperative, it is a derivative concept. Being an exponent of and engaging in a practice that may be an art form does not, of necessity, make the practitioner an artist. Before discussing good art or bad art we still need to discuss whether the 'product' (be it a performance or an artefact) is art or not. I am not arguing that pornographic elements, whether in part or in their entirety, can not coalesce into art, but such a determination needs to take into account the practitioner's aesthetic and the specific art-product being created. My stance is not an attempt to put down participants in the production of pornography. I am entirely comfortable with the production of art using popular or unconventional forms. My stance is predicated on the basis that art has important stories to tell about the nature of reality and that unrigorous uses of the term deny us the capacity to investigate the sublime and the intangible. [Link] |
| A_Fan Deactivated User 1187 Posts 9/16 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 6:22PM If a person looks at a creation they find horrible, or wasteful , or pointless (to them), that person may say "that isn't art!!". This can be said about actual artworks like paintings or sculptures..... porn, martial "arts" , plays, drama, anything really. Art is a perception. Someone creates something.. if someone else gets meaning from that creation, to me, it is an artist creating something for someone else. Some can feel performances are "art" or "performance art"... which having sex on film would fall under. It is all so subjective and everyone has their own answer and definition. [Link] |
| Goldstein All-Star Member "You have sacrificed nothing and no one." 3689 Posts 8/10 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 6:26PM [Link] |
| Dragon Sign Deactivated User 3381 Posts 12/13 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 6:47PM The material I know will stand its ground and not die like everyday consume shit investments, is brought over by artists. It's not more than maybe 5 % of the mountain high stack of DVDs. As I bought the shit, I bought some golden stuff too. Over the years I've been better at buying good shit. Yeah I'm an expert at seeking out what's good and what's probably not. It's a scolling kinda thing nowadays concerning new merchandise. But the really great stuff more often than not comes from the era 2004-2006, things I'd buy way after its days of releasement. Pretty often that golden shit has Mark Ashley's name written somewhere about it. So it's a question about time too, this. As times go by, maybe adult artist is some kinda dying specie harder and harder to come by. Yeah turns out maybe they're like wild dinosaurs gone to sleep by now. [Link] |
| LPee23 All-Star Member Better to be pissed on, than to be pissed off. 248 Posts 1/15 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 7:43PM [Link] |
| misspornUSA Senior Member I ♥ the male gaze (and Palestine). 8737 Posts 11/13 | Posted - Jan 15 2017 : 8:36PM [Link] |
| BlackSix All-Star Member pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07 | Posted - Jan 16 2017 : 4:41AM By that logic no American filmmaker is an artist, including Welles, Chaplin, Keaton, Coppola, Altman, Aldrich, Scorsese, Burnett, Lynch, Kubrick, Anderson. Also performers like Stanywk, Grant, Kelly, Clift, Brando, Hackman, Pacino, Keitel, Burstyn, the Fondas, Foster, De Niro, Duvall, Nicholson. No French or German filmmaker or actors pre-WWII. No Japanese director or actor right up to the 1960s. Most novelists pre-1950 wrote novels and short stories to make a living. Dickens, Hemingway, most of the Russians and French novelists. Poets in the Middle-East can still make a living from being poets. According to your wording, none of them are artists. In porn I would consider the films and the performers in the films of Chuck Vincent, Armand Weston, De Renzy, Michael Zen, Jack Deveau, Peter De Rome, Gary Graver, Damiano, Spinelli, Poole, Colt and others as artists. In gonzo the quality isn't as consistently good but I would cite scenes and performances by Ferrara, Kristina Rose, Sunny Lane, Rocco, Stafford, Gianna, Stefano, Gracie Glam, Brooke Lee Adams, Jesse Andrews, Sinn Sage and of course the directors who shoot and edit the scenes as being great enough to meet the rather vague 'elitist' defintion of art you provided. I think an objective thinker would have trouble arguing that dancing for instance is 'art' but somehow a sexual performance isn't as there are several similarities in form (as Linda Williams and Howard Hampton have pointed out). Ultimately the definition of Art is distrusted by many because in practical application it is twisted so the comic art of Kirby, Wally Wood, Steranko, Schultz, Herriman and others is not Art but the barely competent paintings of Lichenstein are. That kind of thing has made people rightly leery of defintions of capital 'A' art. The pendulum may have swung too far when academics try to wring deep thoughts from the likes of Lady Gaga but I think there are still good reasons to be skeptical of easy defintions or what is and isn't Art. Edited by - BlackSix on 1/16/2017 6:51:20 AM [Link] |
| BlackSix All-Star Member pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07 | Posted - Jan 16 2017 : 4:45AM Edited by - BlackSix on 1/16/2017 5:05:53 AM [Link] |
| Simple Simon Senior Member 12302 Posts 2/15 | Posted - Jan 16 2017 : 6:06AM from needing money to live. (Or in response to the scammers line "the exposure will be good for you", how do you pay your bills with "exposure"?) [Link] |
| Sexy Sadie All-Star Member I came to turn on everyone 978 Posts 6/10 | Posted - Jan 16 2017 : 6:30AM As noted this is a complex topic, and I am happier that it is being discussed with different viewpoints being expressed than necessarily considering that my contribution is more correct than any others. My posts have been broad brushstroke in an effort to keep them reasonably concise. My central thesis is, and again this is hard to put concisely without losing subtlety - art is more than the reproduction of form. Artists consciously engage with their form in an on-going resolution of practice, technique and failure. My reason for putting this 'out there' is not to distinguish Art from art, but sloppy thinking about art (where everything, and therefore nothing, is art) from interrogative thinking about art. I don't claim that this is the only way to think about it, but I am happy to stake out a position. As such, the OP 'Are Adult Performers artists?' seemed to me an invitation to discuss what is an artist, rather than to merely answer yes or no. And again I stress that my response was and is all about the discussion not the conclusions. In terms of addressing your posts: - 'Elitist' was throwaway and deliberately provocative since I knew my position, including the taking of a critical politician itself, was likely to be unacceptable to some members. - The impression I gave that commerciality negated art was the result of poor expression - it was not clear that I don"t necessarily consider being an artist and being a person in the porn industry as mutually exclusive. Nevertheless, rather than engaging in massive circumlocution I'll just say that I agree with your post as it addresses the general claims in respect of commercial/popular and pornographic filmmakers, as well as performers. Obviously fruitful discussions could be had about the artistry of any specific person, but that is rather beside the point. 'Stories' is just bad. I was kind of using it in a flakey way. The point I wanted to make with that quote was more about the sublime and how art can make it manifest (bring it into reality) and that we can miss insights and understandings of ourselves if we forever shy away from critical thinking about art. I am not so much a fan of 'meaning', or searching for it, but rather finding ways to critique and express experience - which ultimately the work of art (including the ephemeral moments of dance or fucking) does better than any words can do. Thank you for the opportunity to attempt to further clarify my thoughts - in relation to this and many other subjects, it is a never-ending journey. Someone else's turn now... Edited by - Sexy Sadie on 1/16/2017 6:34:39 AM [Link] |
| T0MBOne Senior Member 1200 Posts 5/08 | Posted - Jan 16 2017 : 6:11PM I dug up an old quote about porn from one of the most elitist film critics ever---John Simon. "A film, I believe, becomes pornographic not when it tries or manages to arouse us; it becomes pornographic when it becomes a bad film-when it engages us only as curiosity seekers and mutterers of wisecracks in the dark." The problem is that today, a huge section of the world populace dismisses this stuff as bad film making in much the same way Simon dissed the xxx industry in his 1975 review of Damiano's Story of Joanna . Until that dismissive view changes, discussing whether these people are artists or not merely becomes a way for a few of us-very few of us- to spend some down-time on the internet! ---tb--- [Link] |
| pat362 Senior Member 10083 Posts 3/10 | Posted - Jan 16 2017 : 8:29PM [Link] |
| pat362 Senior Member 10083 Posts 3/10 | Posted - Jan 16 2017 : 8:34PM [Link] |
| bad pizza Member life's to short to watch shitty porn 51 Posts 9/16 | Posted - Jan 16 2017 : 8:34PM [Link] |
| LPee23 All-Star Member Better to be pissed on, than to be pissed off. 248 Posts 1/15 | Posted - Jan 16 2017 : 9:49PM [Link] |
| Goldstein All-Star Member "You have sacrificed nothing and no one." 3689 Posts 8/10 | Posted - Jan 16 2017 : 10:33PM And, are they artists? [Link] |
| AKperv All-Star Member 1255 Posts 4/14 | Posted - Jan 16 2017 : 11:14PM [Link] |
| Simple Simon Senior Member 12302 Posts 2/15 | Posted - Jan 17 2017 : 6:19AM [Link] |
| BlackSix All-Star Member pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07 | Posted - Jan 17 2017 : 9:36AM [Link] |
| bad pizza Member life's to short to watch shitty porn 51 Posts 9/16 | Posted - Jan 17 2017 : 1:45PM [Link] |
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