Some things to keep in mind:

SAG minimum for a day (8-10 hours) is about the same as a non-contract girl gets for a scene with no extras (one guy, no anal). In both cases, there are plenty of young hungries just off the bus who put downward preasure on rates. This is good for producers (like me) but bad for talent.

The public's acceptence, even enthusiam, for low-grade production has also opened the door to producers who are in no way proffessional. I've spent years and hundreds of thousands of dollars gather the tools, talent and relationships around me that I need to work at the level I want to work at. In exchange for hard work and risk I've got assets; in other words I've got something to loose by not doing it "the right way".

But now anyone with a DV camera, a computer, and a few girls willing to fuck on camera for some fast cash can produces marketable porn. These producers may have little or nothing to loose, so what do they care about HIV tests, proper documetation, working conditions etc. Don't get me wrong. A lot of gonzo amateur is no worst (and/or no better) than the rest of the business. But these days it doesn't take much to get into it, so the flood gates are open.

Bottom line. If you want to enjoy your smut, don't worry too much about why the people who are doing are doing it, or what under what conditions it's being made. Even under the *best* of conditions, the answers to those question are not turn-ons.

T.C.

[Link]

And why?

The DVD behind-the-scenes, showing the girls hating the facial, hating the anal even more, pretty much hating what they are doing. The recent trend to extreme misogyny, which now seems to me to be the very heart of porn. Internet information overload. Reading the degrading comments of some pornographers, who are thankfully banned from this site. The RLD etal. assembly line of robotic "gonzo" performers with dead eyes, who will do anything for the paycheck.

Theres no fantasy left for me anymore. I just see a bunch of prostitutes, prostituting themselves in a dehumanizing fashion. There's got to be something psychologically healthier for these girls (and me)to be doing with their lives.

So all porn seems "bad" to me now.

But it is an interesting cultural phenomenon. I can't seem to stay away from these forums.

[Link]

Yes, the situation you describe is regrettable; but the producers are only giving us what they think (or we've told them) we want. It's a vicious cycle.

It seems what most of us really want is unattainable: women we want to see, performing the acts we want to see, actually enjoying said acts. This is where the 'performer' part of the equation comes into play.

To put the analogy in a broader scope, do you think all professional athletes truly enjoy what they're doing after a certain point? Sure, at first, they probably love the game. But after ten years on the road, doing the same things with the same people, day in and day out, even millions of dollars must not always seem worth it. The same applies to our favorite bands, stand up comics, etc. and so on, ad nauseum.

Maybe Steven Tyler would gladly never sing 'Dream On' again, and it be too soon. Maybe George Carlin hates 'The Seven Words' routine with all his black little heart. Bill Hicks pulled no punches, beginning routines with a dry "It's good to be back, wherever I am. I always love it when I'm here." Yeah, right! But tapping into that truth was what made it funny.

We all 'prostitute' ourselves to some degree because we have to have money for those pesky things like food, clothing, and shelter. I damn sure don't go to work every day because I love it so much!

So try not to feel too cynical about it; these people have a choice. The girls choose, when they walk onto a set or talk to a director, whether they will accept X dollars for X acts. Well, unless they're under contract, but let's not overcomplicate things. That comes down to choice, as well.

There are bright spots. There are performers who never fail to make me believe they really wanted to be there, and had fun doing it. They aren't always the prettiest, or smartest, or whatever-est, but their attitude and energy more than make up for it. Of course, it could just be the drugs, but hey, that's also a choice.

Some of our choices have interesting ripple effects.

In summary, I think we're ALL whores, unless we were born independently wealty, and even those people are seldom free to make their own decisions (family reputations to uphold, obligations, all manner of 'battleship chains' tied to that family fortune).

So cheer up!

I originally came here for the reviews, but stayed for the conversation.

[Link]

Edited by - Walter Burns on 8/13/2003 1:50:55 PM

[Link]

What is stunning to me about today's mainstream pornography is how they can manage to take elements of time-tested interest and make them so unbelievable boring.

I think (hope) we're experiencing the beginning of end game in the strip-mining of pornography's only remaining erotic element: novelty. There is no denying the erotic charge of novelty. (Is there anything more exciting than that first passionate kiss with a new lover?) When just seeing naked people fucking isn't enough anymore, how about three, or four, or anal cream pies. The problem is there are only so many ways the flesh puzzle goes together. If novelty is your only erotic tool, sooner or later you run out of holes, fluids, and positions.
.
The end game of the novelty gambit is acts so extreme that once the novelty wears off, there's little left for anyone who is not a true fetishist of the particular act. Where the industry is at now, about the only thing left is the snuff film, and how many people are actually sexual sadist who want to jerk off to a steady diet of non-consensual sexual violence? Enough to maintain a nitch to be sure, but not enough to maintain an industry (I hope.)

My own distaste for the realities of producing porno has led me to producing (horror of horrors) ligitmate films! My erotic work is predicated soley on my own erotic sensiblities, and qualifies more as an avocation or compulsion than proffession.

Still, against overwelmning evidence to the contrary I maintain the hope that there is an untapped market of people who don't (yet) even know how much they yearn for what I have to offer. Such are the dreams of fools, artists, and men of independent means.

T.C.

[Link]

However, I would like to address this and other comments made by you, Tony, because your last comment was so poignant it made me realize how jaded and cynical I sounded in my own
first post. I can't get rid of the idea that there was some nugget of truth to it, and that saddens me.

It seems to be unanimous among the people making the adult product that more is better, you have to push the envelope, that shock drives sales, and of course it goes without saying you're right: at some point there's a very literal end of what it's physically possible to do that people will be willing to sit and watch, that people will accept money to have done to them, or that a 'civilized society' will be willing to let slide. Rob Black comes to mind.

So why keep going there? Why not reverse the process now, while people like you who are in a position to do something about it lament it, but don't stop?

I lament that there seems to be no room, no time, no call for actual writing or acting. No eroticism in erotica. It's all about, as you say, holes and fluids and some really fucked up psychology.

I get turned on by the erotic power exchange idea, but degradation seems to be the rule, and the tables, with rare exception, are never turned. Because no one wants to see women dominating men?? BULLSHIT! I'd love it. Read the 'treat me like a piece of meat' thread and you'll find plenty of guys who would love to lay back and be used as fuckmeat. ANYWAY...

I'm getting tangential again, aren't I (and apparently expounding on the obvious).

Even if it were done, this reversal of depravity, would it sell? Are enough people who have the talent willing? I enjoy writing, and enjoy porn, but I know my stories would never get made in today's assembly line, gonzo climate.

And besides, even if it were, would it be watchable? Wasn't that what was so special about the so-called "Golden Age of Porn"? I hate to berate the sentimentalists who see 70s adult features through rose-colored glasses, but...it sucked.

There is some middle ground that it would be nice if someone like yourself would stake out. Bring some drama, some dialogue, some human interaction, some *buildup* back to adult films. Those old tenets of writing: atmosphere, tension, plot. The reason my wife watches Cinemax fake porn but won't watch the same thing? The fake stuff has a (silly, but engaging) plot! It's funny to her, but she can't tear herself away. She gets into the characters, and once she's into them, no matter how bad they may be as actors, when they get turned on, it turns her on. My porn does NOTHING for her. She sees it as clinical and vulgar.

In many respects, she's absolutely right.

AH...FUCK IT. It'll never happen. I'm as much a fool and a dreamer as you, apparently.

Maybe snuff films will be the next wave, and all the studios will get shut down. Then, one day in the far flung future, the cycle will begin anew. And kissing will be exciting again.

Now I'm depressed and cynical again.

[Link]

=============================
Alex: I was cured, all right.

[Link]

Lot's of sad truth here, I fear. This is the point where "ignorance is bliss" meets "we're living in a fool's paradise" . . . or something like that.

[Link]

If I spent all of my time thinking about all of the bad things going on I'd be depressed too. Which is why I (try to) limit myself (mainly) to the more positive productions. I'm also not unaware enough to believe that everything really is as enjoyable as it's made out to be. (In fact, I'm probably one of the most skeptical people around when it comes to believing what I see in that sense.) If I see some behind the scenes footage with complaints all over the place - it might prevent future purchases from that company, or of movies with those performers (if I then know they're in it for the wrong reasons), but it wouldn't affect what I'd already seen. I'd try to think of it as a positive exercise in discrimination, rather than one of surrender to "hopelessness".

Edited by - Mythsong on 8/13/2003 10:23:56 PM

[Link]

So, if a porn director chooses to shoot couples or softer porn, it is because he has something he wants to tell with his movie, f.e. that women can enjoy sex or that the focus should be on the female performers pleasure as well as the male performer. You could also say that he shoots this kind of film because he wants to attract new people to watch porn, people that normally wouldn't watch it, such as couples or women, and this to be able to make more money, but I still think it has to do more with my first statement, simply because if all you wanted was to make money, you'd shoot something else.

That being said, I think it is a fair guess that the performers in this directors movies also are treated better than the average porn star, and that this makes him/her enjoy himself/herself more on the shoots and in the production.

Agree?
Disagree?

[Link]

Why? Because so many want to "get into movies", so the supply of entry level people far exceed the demand. I'm not sure if the supply of 18 year old girls willing to take two dick in their ass at the same time could ever exceed demand (which from the looks of this site seems bottomless) but clearly there's no shortage.

As I said before, in this business people get treated better when they're in a position to demand to be treated better. It's not uncommon for a contract girl to demand the right to refuse to work with certain male talent. On the other hand, I've heard of male talent showing up on gonzo shoots without proper HIV documentation , and a girl doing the scene anyway. All she had to do was walk away, but she didn't. I guess she needed the money. Same thing happens when a starlet gets asked to do a bare-assed scene in a ligit film. No one's holding a gun to her head, but if she won't do it, there are HUNDREDS of other young women who would kill for the chance.

One thing should be clear to anyone who's watched porn. The business doesn't have a lot of respect for itself or its audience, or it wouldn't put out the crap it does. I'm not saying the bizz doesn't know its audience, clearly it does. And clearly it knows it doesn't have to do any better. There's no reason to treat your talent any better than you have to either.

T.C.

[Link]

Extreme, on the other hand, had a foot in the grave financially even before the indictment. I wouldn't be too demoralized.

[Link]