Read [https://www.adultdvdtalk.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11403&FORUM_ID=6&CAT_ID=3]interlude for a little more understanding of my motivation for this thread.
I'd love for women to throw up their own questions, but I will offer one that I have heard time and time again.
Why are men not more open with their feelings?
I can't speak for all men, but I can tell you why I might not be more open about my feelings. In my experience, when I have opened myself up to women they quickly took a dagger to my heart. I have never been rewarded for admitting my insecurities, fears, etc. The women who have truely hurt me are the ones who were able to lower my defenses and let me open up. This elicits a Pavlovian response in me...too share feelings equals pain. Too avoid pain, don't share feelings. Pulled out a knife and flashed it before me, stuck it in and turned it around --from Soul Stipper by AC/DC
Still Campaigning for Inari Vachs And when it's cold outside, I want to crawl inside of you --from Untied and True by Bang Tango
It sounds like you’re in a bit of a scary place at the moment there Endorphin. Is this battle you vs women? Guys treat you ok?
I can only offer the trite advice that you’ve gotta be happy with yourself before you’ll believe that other people really like you. Once you’ve got that down (easy, right?) you can handle almost anything.
If someone mocks your feelings, then you can at least take comfort that they were your real feelings. You might well be a real bastard or nutcase, but at least you’re not kidding anyone about it. Or maybe what you told her was made up or artificial, so she’s not rejecting the real you, but whose life are you living that way?
And guys trying the ‘We can be just good friends’ line on not-unattractive women are rarely believed, no matter how true it might be.
Anyway, good luck. Time heals.
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Posted - May 26 2002 : 2:31PM
In my case, being fuglier than the roadmap from Hell, it´s because I´m too durn afraid of being rejected and humilliated in public.
Actually I think it is because women are meaner than men. Women see no need to play nice when they don't feel the need to and rely on their gender to protect them.
Meridian, yes, I have been in a bit of a scary place. Is it a battle of me versus women?...um...maybe to some degree, yet it is more of a frustration. I don't hate women, but I have ran into too many that have not presented a good example for the gender. And I am sure that many women feel the same about men. Truthfully, at times in my life I have not presented a good example of men. Ironically, that is when I have gotten women.
Do guys treat me OK? Some do, some don't. But it is different. First, I don't have the desire to be as close to a guy as a woman. Second, I don't have too be as cautious when it comes to confrontation. If i start firing off on another guy, a whole group of people aren't gonna be saying, "How could he be doing that to a poor defenseless..". If I woop his ass in the bar, bouncers may throw me out, but they aren't gonna give me an extra ass whoopin because I hit a guy.
Still Campaigning for Inari Vachs And when she had me hollow and naked, that's when she put me down, pulled out a knife and flashed it before me, stuck it in and turned it around --from Soul Stirpper by AC/DC
When you get angry about something you tend to get a bit loud, or physical? Lots of people (women too) have bad reactions to aggression.
I think that for all the comments from the guys here, men have a pretty tough time claiming underdog status in the ‘treating the other gender like crap’ stakes. We've got a lot of heavyweights fighting in our corner.
I was by no means claiming that women were the only offenders in this area just that they tended to do so with no care for the consequences of their actions. If I am in a bar and another guy embarasses me in front of everyone he does so with the understanding that I may haul off and nail him one and we are all okay with that. But if a woman does the exact same thing the same response is totally unacceptable. As always women want equality but only when it suits their purpose.
However Endo this does not mean you should stop trying.
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Posted - May 29 2002 : 10:13AM
yeah, but lee, how often do women go around embarrassing men with no cause? are you saying we're totally insensitive to how our actions affect others? we have just as many consequences to our actions. being hit physically is not any more painful than being hit emotionally.
i don't know where you guys meet all these cruel bitches, but i'm getting the feeling that their mean parts are being exaggerated. seems like you guys are exaggerating the differences between women and men, and generalizing whole genders.
Actually Steph women go around embarrassing men with no cause all the time especially in public. If a guy asks a girl to dance the answer should just be no thank you if she is uninterested but I doubt there is a guy here who hasn't either been on the receiving end of or seen someone totally cut off at the knees by said girl in front of god and everyone just for the amusement of her and her friends.
I am also not saying they don't realize the consequences of their actions. They know all to well what they are doing most IMHO just don't care.
Now as to these mean women I am not saying all women are like this just that there seems to be a trend here especially in public situations with other females around.
Steph you are very right in that emotional pain is much worse then physical however the physical pain is easier to inflict and just like Pavlov's dog the lessons from it can be learned quickly.
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Posted - May 30 2002 : 11:46AM
lee, i think you've spent too much time in southern california ;) seriously, i've never seen a woman be rude to a guy who asked her to dance. if anything, everyone i know would say yes just to be polite (and subtely make clear she wasn't interested in anything more than a dance.)
Please keep in mind that if there is one thing that men and women have in common it is that the opposite sex tends to place the blame of the few(or many) on the entire gender. To make it worse, we oft times make these statements in the presence of those that least deserve it. How many nice-guys have had to hear "all men are assholes"? How many cool chics have had to hear "all women are bitches"?
So I suggest we provide good representation for our gender by obstaining from statements like "All women are evil" (No attack on you PS, just the best example out of probably a few). Have I said it before, yes, but I regret if I have said it in the presence of women. I vent. Have my comments here been perfect. Probably not, but for the most part my intentions have been quite good. I feel threads like these can offer some resolution to issues that we want resolved. Even if we make only one better woman and one better man we can stop a lot of pain. Given my intentions, please excuse me from not being too politically correct by always saying 'some, but not all women, and even some guys....' The women that I have problems with would twist those words around anyways.
Do I think the worst of women? No. If I did I probably wouldn't have bothered with these treads. And I encourage women to participate and vent to some degree with their own installments or simply posts.
Still Campaigning for Inari Vachs And when she had me hollow and naked, that's when she put me down, pulled out a knife and flashed it before me, stuck it in and turned it around --from Soul Stirpper by AC/DC
Good God, Endo, what has happened? In an effort to find out, I read all four (!!!) threads, and I'm still not sure, but I honestly don't see this Battle of The Sexes. Everyone is different.
" but why might someone shut you out without explanation, let alone a fair trial? "
E, you're going to have give us more information, it's impossible to speculate. At first you say nothing, then you say 'the evening didn't go well'. I think there's more to this than you're saying.
But here's my opinion, for what it's worth. And I'm not saying these things are true or not, but maybe it will help you understand why she did what she did.
EVERYONE has been hurt, but people who are bitter, make sweeping generalizations, or who carry forward baggage from past relationships raise a big red flag. At the risk of making another generalization, but one that police records will bear out, some guys don't handle breakups or rejection well at all, and many times there is stalking and violence involved. I've been through this, and it's extremely frightening. I've also seen too many good male friends go completely stupid and insane, it's ridiculous. Perhaps she sensed you were much too invested in this 'friendship', or dwelled too much on being hurt, this will scare off most females. Besides, you're too cool of a guy to be so angry. Evil actually has the right idea, because that's usually when you find someone, never when you're looking. Relax, and enjoy life.
"And he'll find someone new And she'll likely hurt him too 'Cause there must be millions just like you and me - Practiced in the art
Oh, and this is the way... we make a broken heart"
This is a true story, only the names have been changed to protect the guilty --from Ain't No Fun Waitin round to be a Millionaire by AC/DC Oh! Occupations are changed too.
I have known this girl, Betty, for sometime at least in some capacity. Unfortunately, she had a flirtatious relationship with a married friend of mine, Bart. This bothered me, mostly because I did not want to see Bart fuck up his marriage and I feared he was already doing something with her. What's more, from a more superficial standpoint I really didn't see what he saw in her. Not that she is ugly, she just wasn't my type. And so much so that I could not possibley see myself jeopardizing a relationship for her based on looks alone. Not to mention, he had something professional at stake.
One night she met Bart at the bar when I was there. I was a bit uncomfortable. Since she seemed to be flirtatious with me(running her fingers through my hair), I tried to distract her from my friend. It didn't fully work. She told me that she didn't care much about looks, she was most attracted to intelligence. Then she followed it up by "I have this one friend who is six foot plus, 240 lbs, and a banker, and I'd marry him in a moments notice". My eyes fought off every desire to roll. At some point she mentioned that she was a stripper. I realized that I had seen her a year or two prior and liked her. Lookswise there were other strippers that I had preferred, but I remembered how much I liked her personality. She didn't seem too hung up on what was beneath her panties nor on the money. That is when the attraction started. I like an exhibitionist streak and I like women who don't always think of nudity as a sexual thing. During, the evening I mentioned to her that I like many kinds of breasts, a particular size is not what I go for, there are bigs ones that I like and small ones. She said "Oh Yeah?" and proceeded to whip out her large breasts. (This has some relevance later).
to be continued..
Still Campaigning for Inari Vachs And when she had me hollow and naked, that's when she put me down, pulled out a knife and flashed it before me, stuck it in and turned it around --from Soul Stirpper by AC/DC
I had reached a point in my life where, as I mentioned before, I regretted not trying to cultivate friendships with women. I looked at the women around me and saw three possiblitities. Veronica was not good because I asked her out before and I was too afraid she would be hung up on that. Another girl was not quite what I needed because I was also friends with her boyfriend (that type of friendship I already had). Betty seemed like the best possible choice, though at the time I was a bit wary of her. I was a attracted to her, but I had no wishes of it evolving to much more. I did not trust her feelings towards fidelity. This is a big red flag for me. Though, admittedly I did entertain thoughts of 'friends with benefits', I liked the fact that she did not seem like the kind of girl who would get hung up on it. And I wasn't hung up on it. If in the end all we were was friends, I think at the time I would have been OK with it. What else? If on the other end, she became attracted to me, I don't think she would get too insecure if I told her I did not want to get into a long term relationship.
So we exchanged numbers and talked about hanging out in her hot tub.
to be continued..
Still Campaigning for Inari Vachs And when she had me hollow and naked, that's when she put me down, pulled out a knife and flashed it before me, stuck it in and turned it around --from Soul Stirpper by AC/DC
One night I invite Betty down to a bar. Bart and another friend are there too. We come up with the idea of going to the strip club. Betty takes us to the VIP section, and proceeds to strip. Soon she changes from Betty into Seductress. She pulls Bart to the stage and Bart starts to unleash a wild side. He yanks her hair and grabs her close. Bart gets on stage, I cringe. We all drink beers. I get on stage with her, a belt is involved. My firends egg me on, but I respect her enough to try not push boundaries. I even rember joking about having a safe word. (Keep this in mind. If I were overly aggressive, would I have cared?). I did not get rough, actually she belted me. Later, I got naked. All fun til Bart started to go down on her. I tried to distract her to no avail. I got purturbed. One, because I didn't want Bart to fuck up his marrage. Two, because as a single guy, I hate seeing a girl skip me over in favor of a guy that already has someone.
She drove my drunk ass home and left her purse. The next day we went out to lunch. She expressed regret for what she had done with Bart. Had she not, I don't think I would have pursued the friendship any further.
Still Campaigning for Inari Vachs And when she had me hollow and naked, that's when she put me down, pulled out a knife and flashed it before me, stuck it in and turned it around --from Soul Stirpper by AC/DC
So the frienship starts. We go to a concert together, a lengthy road trip. Things are discussed. I wonder why she is says she is attracted to intelligence, yet she is not admitted attraction to me. She says that this banker she is attracted to has metally stimulated her and we have not engaged in conversation enough. I realize the error of my ways. When a woman says she is attracted to intelligence it does not necessarily mean that she is attracted to the number of degrees on the wall. She then asks me what I am attracted to "and don't tell me looks aren't important". And I tell her that I am not the type to cover up my attraction to looks, "looks are important, but that is not to say that other things are not". Later, for some reason, I admit a physical attraction to her yet I tell her I have no long term interest. She says I can shoot straight on the reaons why. I explain that I don't trust her belief in fidelity. She says that despite what she did with Bart, she truely respects fidelity and would never cheat on her man. There were other reasons but I did not present them, especially because she did not probe.
To be continued....
Still Campaigning for Inari Vachs And when she had me hollow and naked, that's when she put me down, pulled out a knife and flashed it before me, stuck it in and turned it around --from Soul Stirpper by AC/DC
Wow, this changes things considerably - thanks for shedding some light on the matter. I've tried to answer some of your questions with my humble and cynical opinions.
"I did not get rough, actually she belted me. Later, I got naked. All fun til Bart started to go down on her. I tried to distract her to no avail. I got purturbed."
Okay, this is the kind of detail I like! .. actually, I forgot the point I wanted to make here...
Q. "When a woman says she is attracted to intelligence it does not necessarily mean that she is attracted to the number of degrees on the wall."
A. It depends on the woman. I'm very much attracted to intelligence, but degrees on the wall don't mean anything to me in this context. It also doesn't necessarily mean that she is attracted to intelligence, either. Talk is cheap. With both males and females, you have to take BS with a grain of salt and go by their actions, not their words.
"I can see plenty incentive for women to reveal their true preferences. I believe that over time men evolve to be exactly what women want them to be."
I hope not, we'd soon get bored. Besides, the prison overcrowding problem is bad enough NOW.
"Why is it that women so often say "All I want is a nice guy" and "You're a nice guy, but.. "
A. Because it might appear shallow to say that what she really wants is some tall handsome stud to come along so she can have that fairytale wedding she's always dreamed about. Followed by 18 - 24 months of wedded bliss and a kid or two before the fairytale wears off and things start to get ugly.
Q. "Is the desire to be mentally stimulated any better than the desire to be visually stimulated? "
A. Yes. Being visually stimulated is easy, it demands nothing from you.
Q. "Is it more shallow to be turned on by looks than by intelligence, confidence, wealth, etc? "
A. Yes, but intelligence and confidence are qualities that are more than skin deep. Wealth I'd put in the same (shallow) category as looks.
Q. You have suspicions that this stripper chick who is fooling around with your married buddy might be less than truthful about things.
Blondie, you have some good points, but right now I have to force myself from not thinking about this. I have something really important coming up and I can't let this continue eating me up. I plan to continue with this discussion in a week or so.
BTW Blondie, I do apologize. I know I promised you my first belting. I got caught up in the moment
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Posted - Jun 5 2002 : 10:31AM
Dorph - I have to say I'm a little surprised that the battle of the sexes comes from a friendship gone bad with a chick who flirts and fucks around with married men. No offense, but what the hell did you expect from her? She may have regretted screwing around with him, but she didn't regret flirting with him in the first place? Sounds to me like she has no respect for others or for herself.
and btw, your male friend is just as disrespectful as she is, so why take it out on women?
sorry to be harsh, but the problem lies in the woman you chose, not women.
Steph - you make some good points but I do want to point out that what Endo did is not unusual. My best female friend has been having an off and on affair with a married man for years. I am even friends with him. I told her my opinion on the subject and then let it drop. Lots of people do things we may not agree with but I try not to judge people by one aspect of their personality unless it is something that truely can't be ignored. By the way, what clubs have you been hanging out in I need to start going there.
DB - I fail to see how saying you are looking for a man with and IQ above .... is any less shallow then saying you are looking for Mel Gibson. Both are based on something the individual has little control over and absolutly nothing to do with the type of person he or she may really be. Now confidence is another thing entirely since it comes totally from within.
Now as to this becoming a mud bath of he said/she said statements. I like to say "women are evil" and can even prove it mathmatically but that doesn't mean I believe it fully. Occasionally someone proves to me there is life out there and maybe a little hope.
Lee wrote: "DB - I fail to see how saying you are looking for a man with and IQ above .... is any less shallow then saying you are looking for Mel Gibson"
Well, sure, to go looking for this as your criteria, I'd agree. But the question was is it more shallow to be turned on by looks than intelligence. To even establish someone's intelligence (and it's not just IQ I'm talking about, nor diplomas on the wall) some time must be spent getting to know them as a person, talking to them on a wide variety of subjects, discussing things. People of average intelligence can be very stimulating, if they choose to be, by being well-read, having many interests, and being a person of substance. If you think that's just as shallow as wanting a goodlooking lunkhead on your arm, all I can say is, I disagree.
I just recieved an apology via email from 'Betty'. I have been utterly stunned since reading it about an hour ago. More on that later. Too much in shock for this even..
Still Campaigning for Inari Vachs And when she had me hollow and naked, that's when she put me down, pulled out a knife and flashed it before me, stuck it in and turned it around --from Soul Stirpper by AC/DC
Some men and women, even when they know better, are drawn to people who will treat them like crap, frankly. Then, when the object of their obsession acts predictably, they don't blame themselves for having poor judgement, they blame an entire gender. Convenient, but it doesn't pass the smell test.
Those who refuse to learn and look inward for answers are doomed to repeat this pattern, thereby reinforcing the absurd "all men or all women are evil" dogma.
Sorry guys, but don't blame all of us for your bad choices. Take some responsibility.
Ahhh the ever present female mantra of it's always the guys fault anyway so why should we care.
Sorry DB but while I should have put the little smiley face after my last post to put it into better context. I am not going to let you off the hook that easily.
I came to the realization recently that women (pretty much all of them) treat nice guys badly merely because they can. I am not saying they do so intentionally or with any plan or such just that they do so. They seem to not think or even realize they do it and so when the guy gets upset they are totally confused about what has transpired. In the event that they might figure out something is wrong and it might be their fault they send an "e-mail". In other words they use the method that is the path of least resistance to try to fix the situation but what they are really saying is that it isn't worth the time to us to do it right.
Funny thing is that I am not talking about the whole want her to be a girlfriend women that some guys hang around all the time I am referring to the ones that are just friends. I can only speak from a guy perspective but all the women I know and I do mean all seem to treat their male friends differently then their female ones. As if they are saying he is a guy he can handle it so it must be okay. And before you two (Steph and DB) reply "that is a bogus generalization" I want you to think about that. Can either of you think back and honestly say you have never taken advantage of a male friend by not doing what you said you would and really not thinking twice about it once the decision is made.
I will also conceed that you are right in the "once bitten shame on me" moto. The problem comes when pretty much every woman you know can be placed in the once bitten catagory.
Which generally leads us to the old X-Files moto of "Trust No One". A sorry way to live but unfortunately it does seem to be the way we are heading. Probably why I say I will never get married.
All I am really saying here Endo is tread carefully. For the most part a leopard really can't change it's spots no matter how hard they may try (no DB I am not talking all women in this case). The type of woman this "Betty" appears to be probably won't be changing any time soon. If you can accept her for what she is and accept the way she is going to treat you some of the time then you can make it work but if not it would be better that you just let it end now.
