I have no problem being labeled a pervert... far better than being called a prude! I actually find it kind of liberating.

I think stigma is what one makes of it.

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Oh. And of course "gigolo" works. So you could combine the two. Call every male pornstar a "perverted gigolo" and you might have something close to the same level of implication / emotional impact as calling a female pornstar a "whore". (Actually, no you wouldn't - just looking at aybesea's reply. <grin>) So maybe there really is no equivalent. That's a shame - in one sense anyway. It's too bad the tables can't be turned. If they could, maybe people might think differently.

(I wasn't really aware of this thread until now, and I'm not going to "join in" for the sake of being righteous, but I will just state my personal opinion that (I don't think) the word should ever be used unless it's meant to be deliberately derogatory, as an insult or curse word, or as a part of roleplaying where it's explicitly asked for. In other uses I just find it to be insulting and do nothing more than reflect poorly on the person who uses it, rather than the woman against whom it's used.)

Edited by - Mythsong on 3/10/2003 12:33:51 PM

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I know guys that would freak for being called a gigolo or pervert. I have no problem with it because the first is wrong (I've never slept with a girl for money) and the second is right (at least by the dictates of normal society ). Either way, I'm certainly not going to get bent out of shape by it!

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I also thought some more about the male equivalent of "whore" in relation to how it's perceived. (I stepped away from the computer to do something else and it came to me.) Stricly speaking, there is no valid equivalent. However I did come up with something that's equivalent in terms of how society looks at sexual stereotypes and gender behaviour.

With "whore", we have a woman who's taken her "role" as the "submissive" to a "new level", one in which she's "loose" and who sleeps around in order to get what she wants.

With men, there *is* an equivalent that's just as emotionally laden and which no man would ever appreciate being called. It also equates to the S/M type of movies, in which you would normally find a woman being called "whore". In such movies, the guy is domineering. He takes charge and forces himself on the woman, expecting and demanding her obedience and, sometimes, abusing her until she submits to his desire. The correct term for such behaviour, in real life, (a man forcing himself on a woman against her will, despite her protests) is "rapist".

Just as there is interplay between the submissive female and the dominant male, there is interplay between the "whore" and the "rapist". Both point directly to the sexual role being stereotyped / portrayed in terms of their behavioural "niches", and both can be equally offensive/derogatory to the person being so called. Also, in another parallel, while there is no "male" term for "whore", there is also no "female" term for "rapist". (Male whores do exist, as do female rapists, but society doesn't acknowledge them so they don't play a real part in our culture.)

Also, before anybody takes this too seriously as a personal attack, I want to say that, first of all, that's not my intent - I'm just trying to come up with some parallel - and, secondly, just as "whore" has it's use in fiction and gameplaying, so does "rapist". ("Take me, rape me. Yes, it feels good..." and so on.) It's all about one person surrendering control to another. (And those roles can easily reverse themselves in different situations. I point to The Fashionistas which, although I haven't seen I've read enough reviews of by now to have some idea of what I'm talking about, Rocco plays the role of "whore" to his female "rapists" as they dominate him.)

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I just read some of these posts in this message and I really don't have an opinion. I don't see how some of you do either. But, I can say this. I did read a few posts that talked about the split personalities that (some) porn stars have, a love/hate relationship with their fans. They were referring to the love of their fans on film, but the "who cares" attitude towards them off of film. I'm in it for the money...buy my dvd and I show a little appreciation at the right time. Right?

I can speak for one porn star in particular. I had to have a simple operation a few weeks back and because of a medical condition that has haunted me in the past, I needed to take it easy for a little bit prior to the operation. She knows nothing of this or at least very little. I told her about the surgery I needed to have done and it appeared that she showed sympathy towards me. She exchange lengthy e-mails with me at least once a day for good part of August. I thought it was a really nice gesture on her part to do such a kind act. Basically, this was all I was able to do. Rest up. She even went out of her way to let me know that she wanted to know how it went after it was all done.

It's a gesture like this that makes it impossible for for myself to label any porn star (actress) as such degrating names as some of you have.

You speak of the "nasty" stuff that porn stars do on film. Well in their defense, think of some of the things you've done in life. How many of you have gone to college? I'm in college and I see what goes on around me so I think that speaks for itself. How many of you can call yourself "whore"?

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Certainly, I would suggest that in porn, things are seriously tilted towards the masculine. More and more, scenes (and their promotion) are about penis size, about having multiple men poking and prodding one or two women, and/or having the women go through unpleasant activity. This often results in scenes in which the women either 1) might as well be an inflatable doll or robot, or 2) are actively turned off. They are NOT giving out feminine sexual energy, and sometimes the men aren't giving out masculine sexual either.

I can enjoy a variety of types of porn scenes, but I've come to realize what ties them together is that the men and women, regardless of the numbers present of either gender, ARE GIVING TO AND TAKING FROM EACH OTHER. This is the key to my enjoyment. There must be pleasure going both ways. If the woman/women aren't having any fun, aren't giving off some sort of sexual glow, I can't really enjoy it. This is what I meant by "sharing their sexuality with us," it must be a situation where they are turned on by the man/men, and the men are into it too (slapping five with your buddies as you each take a 15 second turn in her ass doesn't cut it).

I've been told by many people in the industry that the vibe that I seek is very difficult to get. This is why I'm glad that plenty of directors DO try. Regular readers of the forum know my particular favorites, but today it occurs to me to give a mention to Christoph Clark. His movies are full of very strong sex, yet almost always the women are fully involved. They don't "lie there and take it, " nor do they ever seem repulsed/turned off. He creates situations which make them feel sexy and sexual, and he has his men kiss the women, finger them, and show other signs of being awake and alive, yet no one ever accuses Clark of producing "Vivid-type crap" or similar oft-repeated insults. I'm pleased that as we get to late 2003, the situation in my estimation remains one with plenty of shared sexuality scenes, even if the mass of movies are still mediocre at best.

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I don't think that the sets for some other directors are cruel, mean-spirited places, but what comes across onscreen as the final product often lacks any sign of the women enjoying themselves. As an aside, I do notice men behaving differently for different directors, and a prime example is David Perry. I have discussed this privately with some friends, and we are in agreement that there are times when Perry seems barely awake, and when having sex with one more pretty girl is apparently a chore for him. Yet when he works for you, Toni, he always seems to be in full "Romeo" mode, paying attention to the girl(s) and having fun. Things like this make a big difference, because they affect the overall mood of a scene, and more directly, the women of course respond better if the guy isn't distant and aloof.

For your curiosity, Toni, here's the example I have noticed which most shows the different vibe of your movies to many others. You shot a two-part scene of Vanda found on the opening part of Hardcore Innocence 1. I have seen Vanda probably 20 times or more, and she often has a sort of sad look in her eyes, as she goes along with whatever acts the director requests. But in HI1 (and also Killer Pussy 4 from the same time), she's happy and smiling, and is easily the sexiest I have ever seen her. She even gives you the quick little kiss on your nose to show you how she is feeling. That is what I want to see!

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*lights single birthday candle for the infamous "whore" thread*

awwwwww, it's so cute!

how many people got banned in the course of this one? was it a record? and how many banned users made appearances? it's kind of historic.

Happy Birthday!!!!

(I know, I'm sick)

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I've always thought that the girls in porn who truly hate what they are doing give the real whores and sluts a bad name. Go figure.

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NJ Films Inc

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1. Why do these men feel they are better when most of these same men would have sex with these women on film for money? Common sense should tell them that they would be whores (if we used their own defintion.).

2. How come the male performers who are having sex with these women being praised, as "studs" and "pimps" from the same men? The last time I checked male performers are having sex for money too.

I just don't understand the logic. Do you?

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I am still puzzled why these men fail to notice that men who eat women's assholes should be viewed as "degraded perverts" according to their definition. This view from many men and some women is totally laughable.

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When I use the word slut and whore in porn it has positive connation. I percieve women taking charge of their sexuality and fighting the mold that society inflicts on them.

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People like to feel superior to other people. That is human nature. Humility comes through experience.

As for why male performers are 'studs' and 'pimps' rather than 'whores,' I can only assume it is because
a) the person using those labels identifies with them and doesn't feel he is a whore, and
b) because the person using those labels believes that those 'studs' and 'pimps' would perform for free. You can draw your own conclusions.

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I do see some validity in reason b though.

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Btw, i don't think there's a fundamental difference between prostitutes and porn actresses - both of them are paid to fuck, both of them always claim to be horny and both of them usually don't get off. I just think it's wrong to refer to female sex workers as "whores".

Edited by - respect on 2/10/2006 10:57:56 AM

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What I just tried to say in the most complicated way possible is that there's nothing wrong with being a whore or a slut, at least not in my opinion, so the terms aren't derogative by themselves, but their use in a wrong way made most people believe in them being derogative, so decent people are damned not to use them even when they mean them in a respectful way because these expressions are pseudo-derogative.

There are lots of similar examples. I mean, what's rude in a middle finger? Why is it less polite to show it to people than your ring finger? As far as I know nothing is so very different about that finger that could make it intrinsically rude. But it certainly became pseudo-rude in the highest degree for some reason because most people in a particular society will be offended when you give them the bird. So while there's basically nothing wrong with lifting your middle finger you better don't do it because most people think it's wrong.

Now what do we learn from all this? That we should tell women to feel bad about their sexuality so they will turn us down which will make it easier for us to live a chaste life? Well, it's your life, so do as you will, but please not on this planet, for as a matter of fact there's quite a few earth women on my "to do" list.

And Tricia, since I'm quite a newbie to porn I've not yet seen any of your scenes, but your posts on ADT created an image of you in my mind. I don't know how close it comes to the truth, but damn, I almost feel ashamed to call you a woman as opposed to a lady. I mean this in a very positive way, not that you would behave overly ladylike or something because that I could not stand. You're a lady in the sense of a woman who inspires a form of respect in me that goes beyond the one I have for every woman and should go without saying.

The greatest porn scenes are shot already :-(

Edited by - vincentvangauge on 2/10/2006 9:31:28 PM

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There is an obvious market for the degrading stuff and to each their own. My intent when I began was to never do anything I would have to look back on in 10 years and be ashamed of. The same holds true for the films I produce today.

Thank you again for your support.

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The titles and themes are getting really absurd. Is it too much to ask for the adult industry to try to portray fun, healthy adult sex?

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Edited by - Midtown on 10/17/2006 12:38:03 AM

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