I myself am not of "mainstream Christian thinking". I am an unorthodox Christian. People have a lot of words for things they can't really define, and to think, English is just one language. Some languages (like Greek) have more than one word for love, and even more words for certain types of fruits. People say a lot of things they can't live up to either -- it all sounds good on paper but when you try to actually live it out, it just doesn't work out that way. A lot of pastors fuck behind their wives' back, and some are eventually even caught. Even more swindle money from their faithful congregation. There is hypocrisy everywhere. Mind you though, I am a fan of certain contradictions -- for as humans, we are capable of thinking intellectually yet primal lust reflects the flipside of this.

I hear a lot of "blah blah blah" but I just want to see some good happy fucking, really! No, it doesn't make me feel guilty (it did once but that's before I bucked off the system put in place on me), and yes, I enjoy my fair share of porn.

Spirituality is a simply complex, personal thing. You can't fully explain your faith. You feel things you can't explain. By extension, sexual expression is a very personal artform too. I don't like porn fakery but I enjoy seeing the porn actors and actresses really having a good time. Sure, it's a career, it's for the money, but even pastors need $$$.

On planet Earth... I choose to enjoy porn! Why not? Every line of argument I've heard relating to this gets MESSILY tangled up in some self-referential, circular logic, or gets ugly and redundant. I've heard most, if not all of it before. Same thing over and over again. So it doesn't interest me. What interests me is humans being more open about porn and talking more about positive sexuality in a society that needs more awakening and the friendly, casual freedom that doesn't stigmatize sexual performers who are doing porn in a Safe, Sane, and Consensual environment.

BTW China isn't so much communist anymore, it's a communist/capitalist hybrid system actually. But somewhere like Singapore, you are correct, is very tough on porn as well as leaving chewing gum on the street.

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As far as the cross chains go, it's more of a fashion statement than anything. How many rappers do you see with $40,000 diamond crosses who rap about killing people and slapping women? Hell, I wore a cross the day they expelled me from Ctaholic School. The gold brought out my eyes

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Some Christians (and communists are the same) hate the idea of freedom of expression. It threatens the ability of an institution to control people. Liberal christians, and they exist in Catholic and Protestant churches, see sex as a gift given us not only so that we can reproduce, but so that we can have fun doing it! Why else would God have made us the way he has? Why else would God have given us contraception if not so that we can enjoy sex for its own sake?

Every gift can be abused. Porn becomes a problem when it becomes an obsession and detaches us from other, more important things. It is the same with money, or baseball or whatever - these things have their place but they should not dominate our lives.

The essence of Christianity is to love God and to love your neighbour as you love yourself. I dont see how a little porn now and again gets in the way of either of these.

Edited by - john pype on 5/22/2004 5:37:51 PM

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The three great monotheistic ("one deity") religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) all believe in this. The essence of Christianity is the belief that Jesus Christ was the messiah (literally, "the anointed one"), and part of a Trinity. The essence of Islam is that Muhammad was the last of a line of Prophets (which included Jesus). Followers of Judaism are still waiting for their savior (also, they believe their bloodline derives from a relatively early branch in history).

All three religions are rooted in the same monotheistic Abrahamic trunk. For a concise recap, consult this page at Wikipedia.

Much of what advertises itself as "Christian" these days are actually sects whose sociopolitical agendas overshadows the original basic tenets of Christianity. Sadly, much of the general populace is apparently unable or unwilling to recognize this critical distinction.

The wearing of the cross cannot be interpreted more than that the bearer believes that Jesus Christ was the messiah. Lacking any sort of written or verbal confirmation from the bearer, attaching any sort of significance beyond that -- moral, social, economic, political -- is foolhardy at best.

There is nothing in basic Christianity/Judaism/Islam that prevents you from enjoying a little porn now and again.

Edited by - cv on 5/22/2004 6:57:31 PM

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But hey, it's not the first time that a thread has been started in the wrong forum.

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Besides, all "christians" secretly jackoff, bang their clits, fuck people behind their backs, and moan and groan in unison with the porn stars on the TV. This is nothing to worry about because its 100% natural.

Porn liberates the soul. It uplifts it, allows it to grow in a different direction. Treat porn with respect and porn will always treat you well.

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PORN PARA SIEMPRE!

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Dave
www.davecummings.com (NO pop-ups)

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The majority of Christian's probably don't understand this thinking considering their answer to so many complex questions is "God has decreed that such behavior is sinful". They do not see that such behavioral limitations were placed on people for the health of their society and the health of the human family.

Some folks who engage in negative behavior like pornography and drugs want to validate their behavior, so they ignore all the negatives of their behavior while using their own loose interpretations of Christianity.

The Christian's who discourage pornography are just looking after society. Pornography is bad for you. It inspires lustful and perverse sexual behavior as well as often devalues women in the eyes of porn viewers. Pornography is the ultimate objectification of women as a sexual object to be used solely for the focus of a man's sexual desire. Sure there are exceptions, but most of porn serves this purpose.

I'm the kind of person who sees things for what they are. I don't like painting fancy pictures to validate my behavior. Porn has been big time bad for me and I've been watching it since I was 15 or so. It has definitely warped my mind and every time I look at a women I see her in a sexual manner first and as a person second. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this attitude.

Christian's definitely push values that are healthier for society than people who produce porn. Pornsters often want to have carte blanceh to do whatever they want without censure. Christianity does not allow for casual sexual relations for good reason. It is healthier for society to have a stricter view of sexual relations that teaches both that sex is a responsibility shared by two people who should be committed and in love with each other because a child is the primary purpose and possibility of sex.

Edited by - Blue Sword on 5/24/2004 4:32:38 AM

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Porn deals primarily with the temptation of lust and therefore the "Sin" of porn lies within the state of your heart while you watch porn, not whether or not you are watching.

My wife argues that a person's body should be hidden to all but the one chosen by God. I believe that there is nothing wrong with viewing beauty as God created it (not a plastic surgeon) but there is an innate danger of lust. Therefore, I agree with the prevailing view (for the betterment of society) that porn, in general, creates an unholy atmosphere in the realm of sexuality. If you just want to appreciate the female form stick to glamour photography.

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Edited by - Huggins293 on 5/31/2004 11:22:18 AM

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The facial expressions and sounds that celebrate raw sexuality are very similar to the facial expressions and sounds that signify anger, pain, sadness and insanity. When Lee Stone tells a woman to "come on" when he is power fucking her. it is said in the same tone that a angry man says to another man when he is fighting.

Let me give you another example, if you saw someone make up their face and pout, would you think they are mad? When I jerk off my face is made up like an ugly motherfucker. Does that mean this evil face is reflective of thoughts of evil.

Lastly, let me give you this example, when you were a kid and watched cartoon villians, didn't you think they moaned in enjoyment when they thought of evil ideas like men and women do in sex especially in porn. I am serious dude. I know this sounds whacko but it's true. Again a sound of that expresses extreme carnal pleasure has a similar sound to something that expresses evil thought.

Be honest and tell me if you understand. I have said this before with people utterly confused but if you are open minded about what I am saying you will probably agree.

P.s. I thought I had a guilt toward porn but analyzing it deeper I have a bogeyman fear of it. It is as if I am flirting with something that is sinisterly dangerous. I go to porn shops nervous, extremely nervous at times and I think in part that has somethign to do with society and its repercussions. The guilt is I feel for thinking people are ugly and dorky is far different than the fear/anxiety I have when going to porn shops.

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There are many different sorts of liberal christians. Some of them approve of gay marriage, others approve of women bishops. Amazingly, some do not believe in an afterlife. A few do not believe in God at all! So they are a large and varied constituency.

To my mind all love is morally acceptable, be it amor, eros, caritas, agape. Anyone who thinks erotic love is not morally acceptable, or that it has to be hooked into some other sort of love to make it acceptable, should read the Song of Solomon in the Old Testament. Is it better to beat up your wife every week and remain sexually faithful, or love her to death for 30 years whilst indulging in a little porn from time to time and the occasional extra-marital adventure?

The puritans and control freaks in christianity took us all on a sexual guilt trip from about 1400. Amongst the first modern colonisers (interesting word!) of N. America were Plymouth Brethren - the whackiest and wierdest christian sect imagineable. Puritans to the core - they did not even allow dye in the women's clothing in case it set off sexual frenzy in the men-folk. You had your own fundamentalists from the start, and boy, did they leave their mark!

There is nothing in the Bible which says that sex is wrong. What there is points to the opposite view. The commandment about adultery is there, yes, but what exactly does it mean to us in 21st century. Does it mean the same as it did 500 years ago, or 2000 years ago? I doubt it. There are commandments about killing, stealing, and envy. And which of us does not steal time from our employers or envy our neighbour's automobile, or his house? And christians are busy killing people in Iraq. So there are no moral absolutes.

Is lust somehow worse than killing, stealing or envy? If so, why?

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For a long time after I stopped believing in the Catholic religion, I still wore my cross necklace that I grew up wearing. I also sometimes still wore a St. Christopher medallion, which I'm pretty sure I wore in at least one video. Sacriligious? Some may think so. I didn't intend it as such. It was part coincidence and part a symbol of the confusion I was going through about religion at that time.

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P.S. Catholics probably have the most consistent sexual moral philosophy although I grossly disagree with it.

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But, if she does not believe in God, then she is not a Christian. I'm not being dogmatic(well, actually it is dogmatism in the truest sense of the word in that it relates to Christian dogma, but not my dogma), but that violates the very definition of a Christian - One who believes Jesus is the son of God and he came to be crucified to absolve us of our sins.

BTW, I am not Christian. I dig Jesus, as I do any enlightened prophet. I'm just pointing out that just because a person calls herself a Christian doesn't mean she is.

As far as porn being anti-Christian. Who knows? So much about Jesus is not known and was discarded from holy texts. He may have had a very progressive view about sex and lust. He had to have fucked Miss Magdelene. It's much more open to interpretation, as far as Christian tenets are concerned, than say, whether there is a God. I'm sure he wouldn't deny the rights of two men(or women) to live in a loving relationship, either. Above is only MHO, of course.

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HAHAHAH

JESUS WAS FUCKING all the time. Why else would 12 sexy studs follow him through the heat of the desert if Jesus never offered his ass to be fucked? Jesus was human. He had the same desires as all of us here.

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As for actors, the only one I've seen is Rocco Siffredi, in two of his recent films. The cross he wears is about 3 1/2 inches long, so it's rather difficult to ignore.

I've always figured that these performers have their private reasons for wearing a cross, and that it's their right if they want to do so. I didn't get the idea they were trying to show disrespect of any sort, not in the way the singer Madonna used to do back in the 80's when she would wear a huge cross with some revealing clothes.

The only other emblem I can recall seeing someone wear is Erik Everhard - he wears a Canadian Maple Leaf on a necklace.

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religion is good for some but not for all

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The only difference between YOU and your wife lies in the fact that you do not think that nakedness triggers soverieghn lust while your wife probably think it does, therefore, you permitt non-sexual nudity while she permits no nudity. But you both are traditional from the respect that you find soveriegn lust sinful. So may I ask you what are you doing in an adult forum and why are you watching porn?

Let me ask you another question, how much a risk one is under in terms of being addicted to lust when watching pornography? Are youy addicted to porn or fucking everything that moves?

Edited by - Huggins293 on 5/25/2004 2:32:46 PM

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My reference to Madonna back in the 1980's - at that time (I don't know if you remember this or not) she was purposely trying to fan some religious controversy with her fashion statements (imitated by a lot of pre-teen girls) like the one below:

There was also one of Madonna's videos, "Like a Prayer", that was shot in a church-like setting and featured a saint's statue coming to life while she danced provocatively in front of it. I think for a while MTV wouldn't play it, which just gave Madonna more publicity.

What I'm am saying is that I don't think that a porn performer wearing a small cross is trying to do the same thing as Madonna was at that time, who was very public about courting controversy in this regard.

BTW, I liked Madonna, and still do.

Edited by - Renee on 5/25/2004 5:59:41 PM

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1st thing that comes to mind: the Church says life begins at conception. So sperm by itself has no rights, right? You have the green light to misuse and abuse your sperm full time, as far as I can tell.

One thing I've found suspicious about the Gospels is when Jesus is accused of talking to prostitutes and then he has this great answer: "Are not these the people who need my help the most?" (or words to that effect). Is that an early example of political spin-doctoring? It makes me think that there might have been some whoring and drinking in Jesus's first 30 years that we don't know squat about. If the construction workers of today are any indication of what he was like, then, well, ...I always see those guys in stripclubs, you know? They're a horny bunch.

I used to think it was odd to see starlets wearing crosses. I used to think they were making some kind of statement every time they did that. Now it's so common that I've realized they probably aren't thinking about the symbolism at all. They like to wear jewelry is all it amounts to in most cases. Some also have issues with the Church, I'm sure, because millions of people do. But whether they're confused or blasphemous or whatever, in a way it's still nice to see the guilt-free combining of sex and the symbols of belief. Maybe the statement they're making isn't so blasphemous after all--the message can be interpreted as "both sex and religious belief co-exist in my life."

Edited by - monkey power on 5/26/2004 7:56:47 PM

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You are right that my wife and I have views very similar to each other, and some of our views and moral opinions are close to those of conservatives. However, we don't feel that conservative Christianity holds all the rules and we constantly challenge and affirm our beliefs within the confines of the Bible regardless of what others believe. As such, we may interpret the Bible a little differently from other Christians but we are still looking at the same source material. The beliefs will be inherently similar.

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I think there is no more to we can say to one another because I don't feel we will agree. So we will agree to disagree. Thank you for responding.

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If souls exist and are placed in earthly vessels to be tempered and tested, then where is the logic in shielding them from life's challenges? There can be no victory when there is no battle. Train them for the battle, certainly, but do not seek to remove them from it. Not to worry though, efforts to eradicate temptation will have no more effect than King Canute's attempt to stem the tides. Please note that I'm not suggesting that evil should flourish, but simply that one must realize that it is just as easy to fall off to the side of too much control as it is to fall off to the side of too little.

Now, porn. I've been watching porn for going on 20 years and I still recognize women as human beings. Frankly, my view of women as sexual objects has more to do with testosterone than with porn. Maybe its the hormones, maybe it's all that porn, but I would say I'm less inclined to objectify women now than 20 years ago, not more so.

As for the morality of porn, porn isn't inherently bad any more than life is. I can accept or reject the occasional odious behavior in porn, just as I can in real life. I choose to reject it, but I don't blame the behavior on porn. Neither do I mistake the behavior I see on the screen for real life, any more than when I'm watching Lord of the Rings. My sexual conduct with a woman may be more open-minded because of porn, but it is still going to be guided by the desire to please my partner, not to try what I just saw on Gangbang Grandmas #128.

I wholeheartedly agree that porn isn't the tool with which I'd choose to teach my children sexual relations, but who's fault is it if that's the only education they ever receive about sex? At any rate, I will bet you any amount of money that the way your parents treated each other and how you feel about them has a more profound effect upon your view of the opposite sex than any amount of porn ever could.

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There's a lot of b.s. that gets said in the world so that hardly anything positive gets done -- promoting healthy sexuality is of paramount importance to me, but for some reason, I see rising body counts on TV instead, both real and fictional. Why is it so okay in America to show violent murders on the tube but not more friendly sex? Why? Upon observing this quite some time ago, my previous more "conservative" model of how I view society began to change.

Here's an interesting site with more discussion if anyone wants to read:

http://www.libchrist.com

I believe it is also of great importance that decisions be well-informed. With most Christians, they know little of what porn actually is -- mostly hearsay -- not to mention basic human sexuality (pulling kids out of sex ed is far from uncommon). And that says a lot in itself. There is a YUGE (as Donald Trump would say) difference between knowing and being.

Humans sure do a lot of things to limit themselves instead of push humankind forward. It's a damn shame.

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