David Stanley RISES from the dead (page 2)

Author	Post
john lyons Senior Member Co-founder of Vinegar Syndrome 1188 Posts 1/08	Posted - Jun 24 2008 : 9:00PM Flash wrote: John, I think you may be talking about all sex films and not the specific genre of gonzo. Of course David Stanley might be too. The gonzo style can also be completely integrated into features as well as displayed by John Stagliano in The Adventures of Buttman. Click to expand No, I completely agree. Stagliano's stuff is often great (not as much these days but his early videos are truly marvelous). I don't think that there are any bad genres of porn. There are many examples of bad porn from all genres though. Click to expand Neither do I. My point was more so that it's a shame that filmmakers like David and others who are serious filmmakers are finding it harder and harder to make serious films with hardcore sex. Gonzo is sweeping the market and even though there are still quality features being made, less and less people seem to be doing them (although we're still much better off today than during the feature drought of the early 90s). Even companies like Wicked and Vivid which pride themselves on releasing quality features only produce a handful of actual FEATURES with real stories (as opposed to vignette films or virtual non-stop sex films with a light narrative arc) each year. This is problematic in my opinion simply because it's sending a message to any potential directors who would be interested in creating well written feature films that the market for such things is dwindling. [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Jun 24 2008 : 9:05PM It seems to me that there are quite a few features still being made and I'm not sure that I've seen a drop off in them. There are more and more all sex movies being made each month it looks like which might make it look like less features in comparison but I think overall the number of features being produced per year hasn't gone down in recent time. Many studios have been apparently upping the budget for features as well. [Link]
Savoy All-Star Member Sucker for Sinners 1844 Posts 12/06	Posted - Jun 24 2008 : 10:01PM tricia_devereaux wrote: I wish you luck, because all artists are happier when making their art. But when that art takes money to create, sometimes those artists might need a manager to help them get along with the people who write the checks. Just my opinion. Click to expand I do agree with this. Artists shouldn't have to worry about money. There are things that people in suits say that a creative shouldn't even know about much less hear. Everyone is fucked up in one way or the other. Some just work harder to hide it. [Link]
Harri Patel Senior Member #SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele 5110 Posts 3/03	Posted - Jun 24 2008 : 10:11PM Savoy wrote: Artists shouldn't have to worry about money. There are things that people in suits say that a creative shouldn't even know about much less hear. Click to expand Oh, come on. Infantilizing them like this just makes them think that financial irresponsibility is not only acceptable, but worthy of sympathy (which is more than amply demonstrated by this thread). [Link]

Savoy All-Star Member Sucker for Sinners 1844 Posts 12/06	Posted - Jun 24 2008 : 10:25PM Harri Patel wrote: Oh, come on. Infantilizing them like this just makes them think that financial irresponsibility is not only acceptable, but worthy of sympathy (which is more than amply demonstrated by this thread). Click to expand Maybe I should rewrite my above post. MANAGERS/AGENTS should have to worry about an artist's money. MANAGERS/AGENTS should filter what a creative hears from those that pay his checks. And they do. It's a dynamic that has worked for many years for a reason. I'm not just thinking of film. I'm thinking of writers, photographers, poets, painters. It's true that some creatives are awesome business people, but some do better when they have representation and a bit of a moat around them. I do feel bad about David's current financial situation. I would feel bad if anyone were facing this. But I can't feel super sympathetic. Sort of in the vein of conquistador and his situation. If someone is unemployed for 3 months and must file for bankruptcy (and for the second time), obviously money-wise things were a mess and perhaps a manager of some sort would be a fiscally responsible move. Now I'm just blathering about something I deal with only because I have to - money. Edited by - savoy on 6/24/2008 10:34:15 PM [Link]
William Hyde Member 112 Posts 3/06	Posted - Jun 24 2008 : 10:49PM Not to further derail this thread into a debate over gonzo vs features, but I'll throw my 2 cents in by stating that... firstly, all pornography, regardless of the genre, is art. And all pornography, is essentially stroke material. The defining purpose of pornography is arousal, regardless of whether the end is achieved through graphic visual depictions of sex, literotica, or even objects that are fetishized. But when all is said and done, it's about turning us on. Secondly, even though I can understand David's disenchantment with gonzo, I wouldn't dismiss all of it as complete shit. The explosion of gonzo was nothing more than an entirely predictable response to changing technology and market forces [ for almost all the same reasons "reality television" permeated the mainstream of that medium ]. Some of it's good, a lot of it's bad... but it all suffers from an attentuating deluge of so-called "talent" both in front of, and behind the camera. The problem isn't that gonzo as a whole is bad, but rather that there's just so much produced that it requires considerable more scrutiny to uncover anything that rises above mediocrity. But I certainly wouldn't say that gonzo has "polluted" the industry. If anything, it's simply increased pressure on producers of features to distinguish themselves and stand out. And I do think the quality of features has increased over the last decade as a result of that pressure. Contemporary features may lack some of the daring that distinguished the classics, but they've made up for it with ever more impressive production value. David and Tricia are two individuals who've both brought exceptional talent to their respective corners of the industry. There may not be any hugs in their future, but one would hope they each could appreciate the gifts the other posseses. And Stormy, you may indeed be a "nutjob"... but I still love the tits xoxo [Link]
Savoy All-Star Member Sucker for Sinners 1844 Posts 12/06	Posted - Jun 24 2008 : 10:55PM john lyons wrote: Another important thing is this: Gonzo CAN BE ART! There's no reason that gonzo videos can't be art, in fact most of John Stagliano's early works are absolutely incredible pieces of early video art. They possess a unique sense of style and characterization not found in any other gonzo work. The problem is today gonzo has become a predictable formula and rarely harbors any detectable aesthetic qualities. Click to expand Gonzo can be crap (and boy, is there a lot of it), but gonzo can be art, which to me is anything that requires creative skill and talent to make and the end result touches my emotions. Deceptively simple. Not the high and mighty artsy-fartsy image that people seem to conjure up. I would venture to say that "Annette Schwarz is Slutwoman #2" is recent gonzo as art. I got off physically and emotionally. Very intelligent. Well-executed. Horrendous title, but a truly memorable gonzo movie. Then again, Mason is not your typical porn director either. She's head and shoulders above. [Link]
Clam Digger Deactivated User Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05	Posted - Jun 24 2008 : 11:31PM David, I have never (to my knowledge) seen any of your work. Until this thread I had never heard of you. However, it is plain from your posts that you are a very gifted person. I have never considered porn to be art, though I do enjoy an honest depiction of sex and passion, which may mean I have been to narrow in my thinking or that I have just not seen enough. I do like a so-called gonzo pron because. if done well it can be hot-as-hell. My problem with feature porn is that the truly hot performers, as a rule can't act. I am a big Sunny Lane fan. She has great sexuality that she is able to put on display, but lets face it, she can't act. I fell in love with Kaylani, but she is not an actress either. Budgetary considerations usually negatively impact the writing and the production of feature porn, IMHO. Mix that all together and I find "feature porn", if you will, seriously underwhelming. That just maybe the source of the problem. It is apparent that you have gifts that you need to express that go well beyond the capabilities of today's porn. I don't watch much porn anymore, but I sure would like to see some of your work, maybe I'm wrong. Keep up the witting. You are a breath of fresh air around here. [Link]
Mike Quasar Zero Tolerance Reluctant pornographer 1765 Posts 7/01	Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 1:07AM There are three industry persons in this thread that I very much respect, namely Mr.Stanley, Ms.Deveraux and Ms.Daniels and I merely wish to add my voice to the mix because I've worked with David in the past and I don't feel like editing porn right now. So what better way to pass the time than with a cocktail and ADT. Admittedly I've only seen one of David's movies (other than the ones that I worked on which were his first) and that was Black Room. I thought it was cool, well done and deserved it's accolades. I shot camera on 4 of David's movies. I had some of the best times of my porn career on those sets and I learned a lot. I think we were all learning as we were going at that point and we were high on the kind of youthful naivete' and bravado that only inhabits most people once in their lives. As much fun as we had, David WAS insane and his moods could shift like the politics of Hillary Clinton. I'm pretty sure he fired me on one occasion but no one worked as cheap as I did at the time so I was almost immediately rehired. In any other situation with anyone else, I'm sure that I would have said "fuck you" and walked off never to return, but David's enthusiasm, when channeled into positive energy, was infectious. Plus, I'd never met anyone other than myself at that time who could quote the Simpsons at a prodigy level. ("So, ya don't like the ol' time bikes eh?") This whole episode makes me sad because I remember when David was broke and disillusioned the first time and I hate to see him there again (I'm aware that David is also reading this, but speaking in the first person to him here would exclude the participation of slack-jawed gawkers :) I haven't seen or heard from him in ten years but I was always glad to see him doing well. My opinion is that he always wanted to make real movies and be a real artist but found himself in this business for whatever ulterior motives that fate had for him. I think he comes as close as anyone at successfully merging two distinctly different worlds but yes, at the end of the day, porn is for jacking off, eating a handful of wheat thins and going to bed. Where I disagree is the idea that "gonzo" killed the business and pushed out genuinely talented film makers. It's tough to pinpoint the exact year but there was a tipping point when porn became about quantity, not quality. Certainly there was quality out there but with 16,209 Leisure time and Sunshine comps being released every day in addition to every person with a Greyhound ticket and a debit card becoming a "director", coupled with the rapid erosion of wholesale prices, the market was flooded, period. Now porn is free and those of us fortunate enough to be associated with companies that still sell actual, physical product are adapting to what comes next. Everything is a niche. Everything is the a la cart mentality of itunes; the equivalent of people buying "money" all by itself instead of the entirety of Dark Side of the Moon. I'm okay with this, and from a business standpoint I'm actually excited about the possibilities for future revenue after DVD breathes it's last labored gasp. But I'm not an artist. I'm a guy that sometimes can't believe that he videotapes people fucking for a living (not actual videotape anymore. I'm an XDCAM man now) but appreciates that he makes his own hours.. Certainly I take pride in what I do but I won't go as far as to say that I'm emotionally invested. When I was a struggling musician/songwriter many years ago, I took great offense to people telling me how my music should sound or what my songs should be about. As a result, that dream passed me by. I empathize with David because he still clings to his dream. And if I were him (again, I'm fully aware that he's reading this) I would tow the party line when making porn and funnel the financial windfall into making the "real" movie that I long to create. Then again, maybe he is just a bipolar misfit with misanthropic tendencies and an evil streak.... but I doubt it. What was the point of this long winded and largely uninteresting dissertation on the life and times of David Stanley? Well, I just killed a half hour and 3 Crown & sodas and that's good enough for me :) [Link]
john lyons Senior Member Co-founder of Vinegar Syndrome 1188 Posts 1/08	Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 11:22AM Mike Quasar wrote: Where I disagree is the idea that "gonzo" killed the business and pushed out genuinely talented film makers. It's tough to pinpoint the exact year but there was a tipping point when porn became about quantity, not quality. Certainly there was quality out there but with 16,209 Leisure time and Sunshine comps being released every day in addition to every person with a Greyhound ticket and a debit card becoming a "director", coupled with the rapid erosion of wholesale prices, the market was flooded, period. Click to expand True that. Gonzo, not in it's current form, but in variation was how filmed sex began. After a few years of light set-up smokers in the teens and 20s, the 30s through late 60s saw nothing but the creation of all sex stag films. But then 1970 came and early feature film pioneers like Howard Ziehm, Alex DeRenzy, Lowell Picket, Gerard Damiano and others began attempting to make X rated MOVIES, not just streams of unrelated sex scenes. Then we had the "Golden Age" and then came video. Then, as it were, every person with a Greyhound ticket and a debit card could become a director and the market, due partially to the convenience of home viewing and partially to the preference of all sex over substance began loosing interest in narrative hardcore movies. Yes, talented directors were forced into making cheap gonzo-esque crap to continue making a living. Alex DeRenzy for instance went from making high profile, extremely professional 35mm feature films to directing anal tapes under the name Rex Borsky. Two of the most respected and talented directors of the 70s and early 80s, Anthony Spinelli and Gary Graver went from making quarter of a million dollar blockbusters to shooting 10 or so VHS "features" each year, none of which could compare to their earlier work. And why did this happen then just as genuine features are again slowly being destroyed? Because the people with the money don't want to give a real filmmaker the same budget to make one film as they would give a crap no frills two-hour anal tape maker to make 20. [Link]
astroknight Questionable Moderator Tastes so good... 4187 Posts 11/99	Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 11:22AM juha wrote: ...But David Stanley's work is so genuine, so different than anything else ever being captured on film... Click to expand VERY well said and the reason why I hope somebody still has a place for David Stanley out there (as well as wanting a fellow Minnesotan to do well in porn). Sadly, most of the feature market is as bland, uninspired, and repetitive as the gonzo porn Quaze talked about, but with David Stanley I could always go into a movie not quite knowing what I was going to get. The only thing I really knew was that it was going to be unique in some way. Much like PT's work it kind of has its own audience, but there's no denying the care that goes into it. A big +1 to Flash's thoughts on gonzo & features as well. "I do not as a rule seek advice about food from thin people..." - Jeffrey Steingarten [Link]
IWAdult Member 628 Posts 5/06	Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 12:46PM Kind of off the beaten path here, but the topic has been broached. For as long as there has been artist there have been struggling artists – hence the term starving artist. No matter if you are a musician, pornographer, painter, director etc at one point in your life, perhaps for your entire life, you will struggle. And to me that is a travesty because I consider the arts the great expression in life. John Stagliano didn’t start Evil Angel and become big over night, I am sure he has had some tough days along the way and I am sure people are making money off him that shouldn’t. And that’s not fair because what he does and a lot of pornographers do is art to me. Vincent Van Gogh, IMO one the best painter who ever picked up a brush, died penniless and routinely had to borrow money from his brother. He didn’t become famous until he was dead and the rich made mad money from his art. To this day it makes me sick to know that some of my rock n roll heroes have to work day jobs even after selling millions of records because the label took the majority of the profits and royalties. There will always be art and there will always be starving artists and people will get rich off them. Maybe this applies to David, I don’t know his situation. But this thread reminds me of that old adage about the sad clown dancing around when he is dying on the inside. If you aren’t bi-polar David you sure put on a good act because I think I am bi polar just from reading this thread. continue on with the madness.... [Link]
todhunternet Member Burbank 38 Posts 12/04	Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 3:08PM A long time ago, in a review of something by Our Friend Dave, in a moment of inspiration and enthusiasm I wrote "David Stanley's shopping lists are better than some people's completed movies." As a longtime observer of David's work (I unfortunately pointed out a BIG plot hole in the first two minutes of "Big Game") I have watched him go through highs and lows, good movies, bad movies, and a fair amount of Big Baloney Sandwiches. I look forward to seeing his work again. --t [Link]
Bob All-Star Member 5516 Posts 3/03	Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 4:53PM IWAdult wrote: For as long as there has been artist there have been struggling artists – hence the term starving artist. No matter if you are a musician, pornographer, painter, director etc at one point in your life, perhaps for your entire life, you will struggle. And to me that is a travesty because I consider the arts the great expression in life. Click to expand I don't want to derail this thread further by way of philosophical discussion of the non-aesthetic variety, but I don't feel as if I can leave your statement unaddressed. Artists struggle because there's no such thing as a free lunch. Reality provides two basic alternatives for lunch acquisition: (1) The artist has to pay to eat (in which case s/he needs to make money with his/her art -- either through sales or private patronage -- or by struggling to make money some other way while still creating their art); or (2) Everyone else has to pay for the artist to eat (by way of taxation and the government's selection of recipients for artistic grants, which selection the artist must obtain by hook or by crook). I'd love to pursue my artistic interests to the fullest. If I didn't have a wife and two kids to support (whom, BTW, I choose to support and love to support), I'd do that. Wouldn't most of us like to pursue the artistic life, with all the freedom and opportunity for self-expression that it offers? I think so. One life-style/life-project choice implies the rejection of another. Adults make their choices and live with the consequences. If they don't like the consequences, they can try to make new choices. ********************** Edited by - bob on 6/25/2008 4:54:10 PM [Link]

Bob All-Star Member 5516 Posts 3/03	Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 4:58PM ^^^ Which isn't to say that I don't root for the success of struggling artists whose work I value. More art that I like in my world improves my world. Happier artists whose work I like makes me happier. Etc., etc. [Link]
juha Senior Member 2752 Posts 3/05	Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 6:51PM john lyons wrote: True that. Gonzo, not in it's current form, but in variation was how filmed sex began. After a few years of light set-up smokers in the teens and 20s, the 30s through late 60s saw nothing but the creation of all sex stag films. Click to expand Don't confuse Gonzo with All Sex. Gonzo is about breaking the fourth wall. The early All Sex 16mm and 8mm films don't involve the spectator. Hence the aren't Gonzo. Gonzo's image problem, from an artistic point of view, is the low entrance barrier. As has been said anybody can pick up a cam and call himself director. But directing good Gonzo is almost as difficult as directing a Feature. [Link]
juha Senior Member 2752 Posts 3/05	Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 7:02PM tricia_devereaux wrote: It's not like I haven't been standing right next to you at porn awards events before. We've chosen not to meet, and yea... let's keep it that way. Click to expand Tricia, if you both have chosen not to meet why do you regularly show up on David's threads? As much as I normally enjoy reading your posts I don't understand what's the point of your participation in these threads. Edited by - juha on 6/25/2008 7:35:35 PM [Link]
juha Senior Member 2752 Posts 3/05	Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 7:16PM Mike Quasar wrote: What was the point of this long winded and largely uninteresting dissertation on the life and times of David Stanley? Well, I just killed a half hour and 3 Crown & sodas and that's good enough for me :) Click to expand You've done a lot more. You've given us all a great insight into your work relationship with David, into your own ideas about art and craftsmanship and about porn in general. Let me ask you one question. After shooting porn 25 days a month and having been able to pay all your bills do you sometimes go back into the cellar to write songs? Or have you abandoned your dream completely? [Link]
john lyons Senior Member Co-founder of Vinegar Syndrome 1188 Posts 1/08	Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 10:30PM juha wrote: Don't confuse Gonzo with All Sex. Gonzo is about breaking the fourth wall. The early All Sex 16mm and 8mm films don't involve the spectator. Hence the aren't Gonzo. Click to expand Gonzo WAS about breaking the fourth wall, at least when pioneers like Stagliano began making movies. But since then that aesthetic aspect of gonzo has been lost to the term being applied to any shitty porn where the "director" talks to much on the soundtrack or the "star" doesn't have the sense to not stare at the camera. I would definitely agree that true gonzo is art, but in the hands of so many so-called gonzo directors, it's nothing more than an easy way to cover up shoddy filmmaking. Many early stag films do in fact "break the fourth wall" in a somewhat similar way as gonzo. There is usually a great deal of interaction between the filmmaker and the cast in early stags, often in the form of conversation. It was extremely common in such early stags for the actress to receive filmed direction or engage in obvious dialogue with the director or cameraman while the cameras were rolling. [Link]
SWorldMegan Shane's World 213 Posts 5/05	Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 10:46PM Mike ... That was a very well written post! With a lot of great points about the biz =) I really enjoyed that! Next time, can i get one of those drinks too? ;-) xoxo, Megan [Link]
Mike Quasar Zero Tolerance Reluctant pornographer 1765 Posts 7/01	Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 11:13PM SWorldMegan wrote: Mike ... That was a very well written post! With a lot of great points about the biz =) I really enjoyed that! Next time, can i get one of those drinks too? ;-) xoxo, Megan Click to expand Thanks. My IQ actually increases when I drink. Stone cold sober I can't complete a sentence :) David, are you still out there? Lots of people are talking about you :) [Link]
sdc Member 236 Posts 4/03	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 3:25AM David, more power to you. You remind me of myself before the medication kicked in (in the nicest possible way). I hope the industry can accommodate you for many years to come. [Link]
Savoy All-Star Member Sucker for Sinners 1844 Posts 12/06	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 10:33AM Posted on behalf of David Stanley: To any and all offended parties, I'm sorry for some of the things I posted about the gonzo industry yesterday. My attitude has been in the crapper about you guys because I can't make a living like I used to because of your popularity. I know and recognize that there's a lot of well-meaning, gifted people in that industry. Some of whom, as I forgot in the heat of my over-heated anger, are friends of mine. Good friends. Anyway. I know it ain't much. But I'm sorry I said such horrible things. They were the words of a madman I usually keep locked in the trunk of my car. He gets out sometimes. Long and short of it is that I can be a real negative sonofabitch when I feel boxed in and yesterday I did. I may be a talented guy in some respects, but I'm socially retarded and always have been and I always say too much. No excuses. What I said was shitty and I'm sorry. And, ya know, if you were offended in a serious way . . . Relax, it's just my opinion. Is there truth to it? That I hate gonzo and think it's a crap genre? Well, yeah. I do. I guess. Unless I'm masturbating. Then it's awesome with a capital o. For orgasm. And that's a beautiful thing and I say that without the slightest hint of sarcasm. I love sex. Never had a problem with it. Wasn't raised to. Still don't. That's why I do what I do (or did or whatever, tbc). And that's why a lot of you do too, I imagine. You crazy gonzo kidz. What with your baggy pants and your Hi Definition Camerathingies. Shooting some girl in the back of a trailer, giving blowjobs to forty-seven horse penises, simultaneously. You crazy, crazy kidz. Fuck it. More power to ya. Indie spirit. Fuckin' a. Way I see it, we're all in the same boat, trying to sail to sexier, funkier shores. And what with youporn and it's gazillion spin-offs serving as the iceberg to sink our once mighty Titanic en masse . . . Fuck it even more. Sorry I wrote such hideous things. I spent too much time in corporate porn . . . it turned me into an asshole at some point. I need a break, I tells ya. Sincerely, David Stanley Click to expand Sadly enough, Mr. Stanley won't be hangin' 'round these parts anymore, but he does want me to tell anyone and everyone who's interested in reading more of his writings to reach him via MySpace - [ invalid url ] He will be blogging there on a regular basis. [Link]
juha Senior Member 2752 Posts 3/05	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 11:19AM Thanks, Tricia and Stormy. You did a great job chasing away the most gifted writer from this board. [Link]

juha Senior Member 2752 Posts 3/05	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 11:22AM Thanks, Savoy, unfortunately I can't read David's blog because it isn't public. [Link]
Savoy All-Star Member Sucker for Sinners 1844 Posts 12/06	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 11:38AM Just join MySpace. Send him a friend request. Once he adds you, then you can read the blog. No excuses. Do it. You'll be glad ya did!! :) [Link]
john lyons Senior Member Co-founder of Vinegar Syndrome 1188 Posts 1/08	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 11:40AM It's a great shame David will no longer be posting here. I added him on myspace though so hopefully he'll be keeping up his writing there. I don't know if I'd "blame" Tricia and Stormy for chasing David away. They certainly made statements which were rude, but they, like David, are entitled to express their opinions. The fact that they both personally attacked him and his art was a bit un-called for but David did also attack Tricia's art so, as things go, when fire meets fire everyone gets burned. The resounding thing is that on account of childishness on all sides a talented filmmaker will no longer be posting here and that is very saddening. [Link]
juha Senior Member 2752 Posts 3/05	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 11:45AM I'm old fashioned. I'm reluctant to join myspace or any other online social network. I wish David came back to ADT. But I understand his decision after the hostility he had to face in this thread. [Link]
juha Senior Member 2752 Posts 3/05	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 11:56AM john lyons wrote: They certainly made statements which were rude, but they, like David, are entitled to express their opinions. The fact that they both personally attacked him and his art was a bit un-called for Click to expand It was totally uncalled-for. One industry member just lost all he lived for and two other industry member who do exceptionally well come here and make rude statements. Someone already kissed the dust and two other keep stamping. That's not classy its not even acted professionally. I know Stormy and Tricia couldn't care less about my opinion. But I'm disappointed about their behaviour because they came across classier in the past. [Link]
stormydaniels Member 171 Posts 3/04	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 12:12PM Juha, are you fucking serious??? I did not attack David, I said numerous times that I like him. I spoke negatively about his BEHAVIOUR. Tricia and I only spoke the truth (which is what I ALWAYS do whether it is pretty or not and MOST people appreciate my honesty). It is not my fault or problem if David cannot handle the truth. What about the nasty things he said about Wicked and the gonzo industry? IF you knew all the details, you would not be so quick to sing the praises of Mr. Stanley. To attack our "class" when Tricia and I have always maintained our professionalism in the industry is not only wrong, but ironically you are doing the very thing you have falsely accused us of doing to David. It is sad to think of how long Tricia and I have been posting on this board and communicating with our fans and when someone new comes on, you so quickly turn on us. I have always known a lot of porn fans can be fickle, but you take the cake. Congrats Juha, you may have just chased Stormy Daniels from the board. "Who needs enemies, when you have friends like this..." [Link]
skronker Notable Legendary Icon Scopophiliac 9780 Posts 9/02	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 12:17PM Crucifixio_Jones wrote: Steph wrote: David, I haven't watched a porn movie in a long time, but based on your posts here (and Savoy's love for you) I'd watch one of yours. Don't give up on the porn industry. There are plenty of collectors, not just 30 second masturbators. It will never be all clips. Click to expand Damn. If I could masturbate in 30 seconds, I wouldn't have to collect. Click to expand You said what I was trying to think to say. [Link]
tricia_devereaux Evil Angel DVD Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 12:45PM Juha - I do care about the opinions of others. I hope you'll let me try to explain my motivations. When I said so pointedly that David and I hadn't met, that wasn't true. We had been standing with mutual friends a couple of times at industry events, including the AVN Awards. He chose not to speak to me. Once when I was introduced to him by a mutual friend (because I WANTED to meet him), he made a really rude comment about gonzo porn not being real movies. So we've been introduced, but thanks to him, never met. After that encounter, I never again wanted to actually meet him. It was like wanting to met someone that you thought was really talented, and then being incredibly disappointed with who they actually were in person. To the person who said I'm normally classier, I appreciate that, and I hope you understand that when my claws do come out, it's for a reason. This is what I feel that I said to or about David before: that what he did that was the final straw that got him fired from Wicked was indeed a reason I agreed with Wicked for firing him over. In this thread, he admits it was a stupid thing that he regrets. I only got involved in the other thread because I respect Wicked as a company, I adore Steve Orenstein, I have several friends that were on the crew that day, and I have come to respect Stormy as a person, not just as a force within this industry. I had been aware of what happened since the evening it happened, but didn't say anything until people started questioning Stormy's motives. In this thread, I called David artsy and arrogant. I did so after he said that he thought that gonzo porn should burn to the ground. Why? So that only features can be made? Why can't both types of porn be made? He may not be aware of it, but John didn't get to make the movies he really wanted to make when he was simply 'for hire' for other companies. He saved away his money that he made from those movies, and financed the movies he REALLY wanted to make. Before David made his comment, I was attempting to point out to him that yes, the 'money people' in the corporate world get to make the decisions of what their money is spent on. I'm not saying that he didn't understand that. But yes, I get incredibly frustrated with people who think they're owed something. I understand that he has a lot of fans, but if the money brought in by those fans buying the movies doesn't pay for the movie to be made, then it is no longer a viable financial option. On top of that, if the artist is difficult to work with, then the 'money man' may not have as much incentive to give it another shot. I have had much worse things said about me and to me on this board and others. How should I have known that a guy who said such hateful things about the company where I work and that I love, couldn't handle me saying something back? He left XCritic too because of criticisms. I took personal exception to him on forums because he found it ok to attack anything and everything he didn't personally find worthwhile, yet if anyone criticized him, he couldn't handle it. I'm sorry that it appears that I 'ran' him off. If he had been the epitome of graciousness, and I was just a flat-out bitch, then I'd have no choice but to agree with you. But if someone's gonna be an ass, and I call them on it, I feel that I'm entitled to that. It appears that he is well-suited for a place like Myspace, where he can choose the people he can talk to, and keep out people who have any criticisms of him. [Link]
juha Senior Member 2752 Posts 3/05	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 12:51PM stormydaniels wrote: Juha, are you fucking serious??? I did not attack David,... Click to expand Well, calling somebody bi-polar is a pretty serious attack in my opinion. stormydaniels wrote: It is sad to think of how long Tricia and I have been posting on this board and communicating with our fans and when someone new comes on, you so quickly turn on us. I have always known a lot of porn fans can be fickle, but you take the cake. Click to expand I didn't turn on you. I'm just a fan like most people on this board. I will neither meet you, Trica or David in person. I only know you through your work. And I know David's work for a longer time than your work. So it's definetely not a case of being "fickle". I don't know anything about the drama behind the scenes. I don't know who is "right" and who is "wrong". But in this situation, he being unemployed, you being most successful contract girl, contract writer, contract director, you shouldn't attack him on a public messageboard. stormydaniels wrote: Congrats Juha, you may have just chased Stormy Daniels from the board. Click to expand This wasn't my intention. As I said before I enjoy your work and would be glad if you keep us posted on current and future projects. [Link]
juha Senior Member 2752 Posts 3/05	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 1:01PM Thanks, Tricia. Now it is easier for me to understand your former posts. Hopefully Stormy doesn't call me fickle again for this answer. Tricia, perhaps I shouldn't get involved in such disputes. Due to my lack of English I may come across more harsh than I intended. [Link]

tricia_devereaux Evil Angel DVD Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 1:17PM Juha- I wasn't angry at you. I'm not sure why I get so riled up when I see people doing the whole 'oh woe is me" thing. Maybe it's something deep down from my childhood observing my mother who never took initiative to make her own life better. Maybe it's been enhanced by being with John for 10 years, and seeing people expect him to finance things, when he worked so hard to be able to have what he has. Every single week he has someone who wants to be an Evil Angel director, and even if they were all amazing, there just wouldn't be room for them. It's a great life, but a stressful one. Oh, and don't worry about Stormy. I don't think anything could run her off. ;) [Link]
Harri Patel Senior Member #SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele 5110 Posts 3/03	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 2:26PM tricia_devereaux wrote: I'm not sure why I get so riled up when I see people doing the whole 'oh woe is me" thing. Click to expand You should see the drafts I didn't post in this thread. [Link]
Flash Golden Age Classic 11018 Posts 5/01	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 2:27PM juha wrote: Thanks, Tricia and Stormy. You did a great job chasing away the most gifted writer from this board. Click to expand WTF? They just responded to statements he made. I liked conversing with him but if he's going to make a statement he has to accept the responses he's going to logically get. [Link]
john lyons Senior Member Co-founder of Vinegar Syndrome 1188 Posts 1/08	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 5:37PM Kudos to Tricia for her two latest posts and just generally for being a voice of reason. [Link]
John-O 76 Member If you like cauliflower you're going to love me. 84 Posts 3/03	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 5:51PM I liked your interview with Elvis Info Net. [Link]
SexyHard Member 673 Posts 6/07	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 6:02PM ^^^ I think Stormy and Tricia have both acted admirably, and don't need to defend themselves. I've been trolling this thread for the same reason people watch train-wrecks. I feel sorry for David, but I can't blame others for reacting the way that they did. Even David can see that he got himself fired.... ....In this thread, he said things like, "I truly fucking hate gonzo and everyone involved in it," and that gonzo is "shittier than a Scottish toilet." in response to a post by a woman who (a) is married to the man widely credited with creating the genre, and (b) is now facing federal prosecution for her work. He even recognized (too late) his mistake, describing his writings as those of a "madman" and a "negative sonofabitch." Tricia pointed out that John started his own company, so he could make the kind of porn he loves. But David's broke, and, based on what I've seen here, I can't imagine anyone investing in him. I feel sorry for him, but I sat here and watched him dig the hole even deeper right on this page. [Link]
Bob All-Star Member 5516 Posts 3/03	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 9:50PM ^^^ Well said! Trashing other people's stuff is a poor way to sell your own. David's movies shine on their merits. If that's not enough, nothing else will help anyway. I'd like to see David return to ADT once he's gotten his head screwed on straighter. He writes well and has a lot to offer. ******************* Edited by - bob on 6/26/2008 9:50:59 PM [Link]
ryderskye Member Sometimes you just have to pee in the sink. ― Charles Bukowski 88 Posts 9/07	Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 11:38PM John-O 76 wrote: I liked your interview with Elvis Info Net. Click to expand The porn David Stanley is different than the David Stanley related to Elvis. [Link]
skronker Notable Legendary Icon Scopophiliac 9780 Posts 9/02	Posted - Jun 27 2008 : 2:53AM I find the strange fawning fandom over David Stanley to be perversely interesting ... Never seen any if his movies and barely know who he is ... Stormy, you are cute when you're mad [:P)] [Link]
XXXenophile Member 343 Posts 1/07	Posted - Jun 27 2008 : 6:10AM skronker wrote: I find the strange fawning fandom over David Stanley to be perversely interesting ... Never seen any if his movies and barely know who he is ... Stormy, you are cute when you're mad [:P)] Click to expand Having seen some of Stanley's movies, I find it interesting too. They're not bad, they're just for a different type of porn watcher. One who I think is definitely in the minority of what they like to see. Art house porn is definitely the right description. And it works for some, not for others. But like others have said, Stanley admitted whatever he did to cause being dismissed from Wicked was his fault, he takes the blame, and admits it was bad. That's better than most disgruntled employees. Hope everything does turn out well for him. As much as everyone likes his writing, it also strikes me as the type of stuff one says before doing something drastic. And that's something we surely don't need for him to do. [Link]
moodyblues Member 307 Posts 1/08	Posted - Jun 27 2008 : 7:42AM I hope that he can find some positive way to channel his creativity, i.e. Clips4Sale. There are many people making nice sums of money on that site selling more fetish-like short clips. I don't know what he made at Wicked, but there is the potential for him to make enough to stay somewhat financially solvent. All the best to him. [Link]
juha Senior Member 2752 Posts 3/05	Posted - Jun 27 2008 : 8:33AM skronker wrote: I find the strange fawning fandom over David Stanley to be perversely interesting ... Never seen any if his movies and barely know who he is ... Click to expand A journalist who proudly admits that he lacks basic knowledge of some aspects of his topic? This happens only in porn and sport journalism. Perhaps because they are first fans and second journalists. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you have to like his stuff but i think you should have watched a feature or two. [Link]
Clam Digger Deactivated User Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05	Posted - Jun 27 2008 : 8:41AM juha wrote: tricia_devereaux wrote: It's not like I haven't been standing right next to you at porn awards events before. We've chosen not to meet, and yea... let's keep it that way. Click to expand Tricia, if you both have chosen not to meet why do you regularly show up on David's threads? As much as I normally enjoy reading your posts I don't understand what's the point of your participation in these threads. Edited by - juha on 6/25/2008 7:35:35 PM Click to expand Let me say that I have found this thread to be very interesting and am sorry David feels that he has broken some sort of code that prevents his further participation it or ADT. Even those who found his posts annoying have stated their respective criticism in a more or less reasonable way. The context of this thread seems to boil down to the committed artist vs. the practical business person's perspective of what it takes to make things work. I think that it has been fruitful to hear both sides. Tricia's comments, though sharp have not been over the top. Clearly her annoyance with yet another complaining artist are evident, but considering flame wars that I have seen (and even participated in),I found her comments reasonably mild and within bounds. Good arguments make good threads, IMHO. [Link]
threesomebody Official BlowBang Judge Would you like my autograph? 2491 Posts 12/04	Posted - Jun 27 2008 : 9:01AM juha wrote: Thanks, Tricia and Stormy. You did a great job chasing away the most gifted writer from this board. Click to expand Yeah, no shit. I am just surprised that some were surprised. [Link]
juha Senior Member 2752 Posts 3/05	Posted - Jun 27 2008 : 9:03AM Clam Digger wrote: The context of this thread seems to boil down to the committed artist vs. the practical business person's perspective of what it takes to make things work. I think that it has been fruitful to hear both sides. Tricia's comments, though sharp have not been over the top. Clearly her annoyance with yet another complaining artist are evident, but considering flame wars that I have seen (and even participated in),I found her comments reasonably mild and within bounds. Good arguments make good threads, IMHO. Click to expand I considered this as the "David Stanley appreciation thread". That's why I asked Tricia about her posts. And I appreciate her response explaining her motivations. She's a damn good PR woman. Definetely one of the best in the biz. And may I add she still has a fine ass as we all can see on the box cover of "Defend Our Porn". The DVD has a great compilation concept and a very important cause. I'll buy it. [Link]
juha Senior Member 2752 Posts 3/05	Posted - Jun 27 2008 : 9:14AM . Edited by - juha on 6/27/2008 9:16:59 AM [Link]

Author

Post

john lyons
Senior Member

Co-founder of Vinegar Syndrome
1188 Posts
1/08

Posted - Jun 24 2008 : 9:00PM

No, I completely agree. Stagliano's stuff is often great (not as much these days but his early videos are truly marvelous).

Neither do I. My point was more so that it's a shame that filmmakers like David and others who are serious filmmakers are finding it harder and harder to make serious films with hardcore sex. Gonzo is sweeping the market and even though there are still quality features being made, less and less people seem to be doing them (although we're still much better off today than during the feature drought of the early 90s).
Even companies like Wicked and Vivid which pride themselves on releasing quality features only produce a handful of actual FEATURES with real stories (as opposed to vignette films or virtual non-stop sex films with a light narrative arc) each year. This is problematic in my opinion simply because it's sending a message to any potential directors who would be interested in creating well written feature films that the market for such things is dwindling.

[Link]

Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Jun 24 2008 : 9:05PM

It seems to me that there are quite a few features still being made and I'm not sure that I've seen a drop off in them. There are more and more all sex movies being made each month it looks like which might make it look like less features in comparison but I think overall the number of features being produced per year hasn't gone down in recent time. Many studios have been apparently upping the budget for features as well.

[Link]

Savoy

All-Star Member

Sucker for Sinners
1844 Posts
12/06

Posted - Jun 24 2008 : 10:01PM

I do agree with this. Artists shouldn't have to worry about money. There are things that people in suits say that a creative shouldn't even know about much less hear.
Everyone is fucked up in one way or the other. Some just work harder to hide it.

[Link]

Harri Patel
Senior Member

#SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele
5110 Posts
3/03

Posted - Jun 24 2008 : 10:11PM

Oh, come on. Infantilizing them like this just makes them think that financial irresponsibility is not only acceptable, but worthy of sympathy (which is more than amply demonstrated by this thread).

[Link]

Savoy

All-Star Member

Sucker for Sinners
1844 Posts
12/06

Posted - Jun 24 2008 : 10:25PM

Maybe I should rewrite my above post. MANAGERS/AGENTS should have to worry about an artist's money. MANAGERS/AGENTS should filter what a creative hears from those that pay his checks. And they do. It's a dynamic that has worked for many years for a reason. I'm not just thinking of film. I'm thinking of writers, photographers, poets, painters. It's true that some creatives are awesome business people, but some do better when they have representation and a bit of a moat around them.
I do feel bad about David's current financial situation. I would feel bad if anyone were facing this. But I can't feel super sympathetic. Sort of in the vein of conquistador and his situation. If someone is unemployed for 3 months and must file for bankruptcy (and for the second time), obviously money-wise things were a mess and perhaps a manager of some sort would be a fiscally responsible move.
Now I'm just blathering about something I deal with only because I have to - money.
Edited by - savoy on 6/24/2008 10:34:15 PM

[Link]

William Hyde
Member

112 Posts
3/06

Posted - Jun 24 2008 : 10:49PM

Not to further derail this thread into a debate over gonzo vs features, but I'll throw my 2 cents in by stating that... firstly, all pornography, regardless of the genre, is art. And all pornography, is essentially stroke material. The defining purpose of pornography is arousal, regardless of whether the end is achieved through graphic visual depictions of sex, literotica, or even objects that are fetishized. But when all is said and done, it's about turning us on.
Secondly, even though I can understand David's disenchantment with gonzo, I wouldn't dismiss all of it as complete shit. The explosion of gonzo was nothing more than an entirely predictable response to changing technology and market forces [ for almost all the same reasons "reality television" permeated the mainstream of that medium ]. Some of it's good, a lot of it's bad... but it all suffers from an attentuating deluge of so-called "talent" both in front of, and behind the camera. The problem isn't that gonzo as a whole is bad, but rather that there's just so much produced that it requires considerable more scrutiny to uncover anything that rises above mediocrity. But I certainly wouldn't say that gonzo has "polluted" the industry. If anything, it's simply increased pressure on producers of features to distinguish themselves and stand out. And I do think the quality of features has increased over the last decade as a result of that pressure. Contemporary features may lack some of the daring that distinguished the classics, but they've made up for it with ever more impressive production value.
David and Tricia are two individuals who've both brought exceptional talent to their respective corners of the industry. There may not be any hugs in their future, but one would hope they each could appreciate the gifts the other posseses.
And Stormy, you may indeed be a "nutjob"... but I still love the tits xoxo

[Link]

Savoy

All-Star Member

Sucker for Sinners
1844 Posts
12/06

Posted - Jun 24 2008 : 10:55PM

Gonzo can be crap (and boy, is there a lot of it), but gonzo can be art, which to me is anything that requires creative skill and talent to make and the end result touches my emotions. Deceptively simple. Not the high and mighty artsy-fartsy image that people seem to conjure up.
I would venture to say that "Annette Schwarz is Slutwoman #2" is recent gonzo as art. I got off physically and emotionally. Very intelligent. Well-executed. Horrendous title, but a truly memorable gonzo movie. Then again, Mason is not your typical porn director either. She's head and shoulders above.

[Link]

Clam Digger
Deactivated User

Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good.
2268 Posts
1/05

Posted - Jun 24 2008 : 11:31PM

David, I have never (to my knowledge) seen any of your work. Until this thread I had never heard of you. However, it is plain from your posts that you are a very gifted person.
I have never considered porn to be art, though I do enjoy an honest depiction of sex and passion, which may mean I have been to narrow in my thinking or that I have just not seen enough. I do like a so-called gonzo pron because. if done well it can be hot-as-hell. My problem with feature porn is that the truly hot performers, as a rule can't act. I am a big Sunny Lane fan. She has great sexuality that she is able to put on display, but lets face it, she can't act. I fell in love with Kaylani, but she is not an actress either. Budgetary considerations usually negatively impact the writing and the production of feature porn, IMHO. Mix that all together and I find "feature porn", if you will, seriously underwhelming.
That just maybe the source of the problem. It is apparent that you have gifts that you need to express that go well beyond the capabilities of today's porn.
I don't watch much porn anymore, but I sure would like to see some of your work, maybe I'm wrong.
Keep up the witting. You are a breath of fresh air around here.

[Link]

Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01

Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 1:07AM

There are three industry persons in this thread that I very much respect, namely Mr.Stanley, Ms.Deveraux and Ms.Daniels and I merely wish to add my voice to the mix because I've worked with David in the past and I don't feel like editing porn right now. So what better way to pass the time than with a cocktail and ADT.
Admittedly I've only seen one of David's movies (other than the ones that I worked on which were his first) and that was Black Room. I thought it was cool, well done and deserved it's accolades. I shot camera on 4 of David's movies. I had some of the best times of my porn career on those sets and I learned a lot. I think we were all learning as we were going at that point and we were high on the kind of youthful naivete' and bravado that only inhabits most people once in their lives. As much fun as we had, David WAS insane and his moods could shift like the politics of Hillary Clinton. I'm pretty sure he fired me on one occasion but no one worked as cheap as I did at the time so I was almost immediately rehired. In any other situation with anyone else, I'm sure that I would have said "fuck you" and walked off never to return, but David's enthusiasm, when channeled into positive energy, was infectious. Plus, I'd never met anyone other than myself at that time who could quote the Simpsons at a prodigy level. ("So, ya don't like the ol' time bikes eh?")
This whole episode makes me sad because I remember when David was broke and disillusioned the first time and I hate to see him there again (I'm aware that David is also reading this, but speaking in the first person to him here would exclude the participation of slack-jawed gawkers :) I haven't seen or heard from him in ten years but I was always glad to see him doing well. My opinion is that he always wanted to make real movies and be a real artist but found himself in this business for whatever ulterior motives that fate had for him. I think he comes as close as anyone at successfully merging two distinctly different worlds but yes, at the end of the day, porn is for jacking off, eating a handful of wheat thins and going to bed.
Where I disagree is the idea that "gonzo" killed the business and pushed out genuinely talented film makers. It's tough to pinpoint the exact year but there was a tipping point when porn became about quantity, not quality. Certainly there was quality out there but with 16,209 Leisure time and Sunshine comps being released every day in addition to every person with a Greyhound ticket and a debit card becoming a "director", coupled with the rapid erosion of wholesale prices, the market was flooded, period.
Now porn is free and those of us fortunate enough to be associated with companies that still sell actual, physical product are adapting to what comes next. Everything is a niche. Everything is the a la cart mentality of itunes; the equivalent of people buying "money" all by itself instead of the entirety of Dark Side of the Moon. I'm okay with this, and from a business standpoint I'm actually excited about the possibilities for future revenue after DVD breathes it's last labored gasp. But I'm not an artist. I'm a guy that sometimes can't believe that he videotapes people fucking for a living (not actual videotape anymore. I'm an XDCAM man now) but appreciates that he makes his own hours.. Certainly I take pride in what I do but I won't go as far as to say that I'm emotionally invested.
When I was a struggling musician/songwriter many years ago, I took great offense to people telling me how my music should sound or what my songs should be about. As a result, that dream passed me by. I empathize with David because he still clings to his dream. And if I were him (again, I'm fully aware that he's reading this) I would tow the party line when making porn and funnel the financial windfall into making the "real" movie that I long to create.
Then again, maybe he is just a bipolar misfit with misanthropic tendencies and an evil streak.... but I doubt it.
What was the point of this long winded and largely uninteresting dissertation on the life and times of David Stanley? Well, I just killed a half hour and 3 Crown & sodas and that's good enough for me :)

[Link]

john lyons
Senior Member

Co-founder of Vinegar Syndrome
1188 Posts
1/08

Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 11:22AM

True that.
Gonzo, not in it's current form, but in variation was how filmed sex began. After a few years of light set-up smokers in the teens and 20s, the 30s through late 60s saw nothing but the creation of all sex stag films. But then 1970 came and early feature film pioneers like Howard Ziehm, Alex DeRenzy, Lowell Picket, Gerard Damiano and others began attempting to make X rated MOVIES, not just streams of unrelated sex scenes. Then we had the "Golden Age" and then came video.
Then, as it were, every person with a Greyhound ticket and a debit card could become a director and the market, due partially to the convenience of home viewing and partially to the preference of all sex over substance began loosing interest in narrative hardcore movies.
Yes, talented directors were forced into making cheap gonzo-esque crap to continue making a living. Alex DeRenzy for instance went from making high profile, extremely professional 35mm feature films to directing anal tapes under the name Rex Borsky. Two of the most respected and talented directors of the 70s and early 80s, Anthony Spinelli and Gary Graver went from making quarter of a million dollar blockbusters to shooting 10 or so VHS "features" each year, none of which could compare to their earlier work.
And why did this happen then just as genuine features are again slowly being destroyed? Because the people with the money don't want to give a real filmmaker the same budget to make one film as they would give a crap no frills two-hour anal tape maker to make 20.

[Link]

astroknight

Questionable Moderator

Tastes so good...
4187 Posts
11/99

Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 11:22AM

VERY well said and the reason why I hope somebody still has a place for David Stanley out there (as well as wanting a fellow Minnesotan to do well in porn). Sadly, most of the feature market is as bland, uninspired, and repetitive as the gonzo porn Quaze talked about, but with David Stanley I could always go into a movie not quite knowing what I was going to get. The only thing I really knew was that it was going to be unique in some way. Much like PT's work it kind of has its own audience, but there's no denying the care that goes into it.
A big +1 to Flash's thoughts on gonzo & features as well.
"I do not as a rule seek advice about food from thin people..." - Jeffrey Steingarten

[Link]

IWAdult
Member

628 Posts
5/06

Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 12:46PM

Kind of off the beaten path here, but the topic has been broached.
For as long as there has been artist there have been struggling artists – hence the term starving artist.
No matter if you are a musician, pornographer, painter, director etc at one point in your life, perhaps for your entire life, you will struggle. And to me that is a travesty because I consider the arts the great expression in life.
John Stagliano didn’t start Evil Angel and become big over night, I am sure he has had some tough days along the way and I am sure people are making money off him that shouldn’t. And that’s not fair because what he does and a lot of pornographers do is art to me.
Vincent Van Gogh, IMO one the best painter who ever picked up a brush, died penniless and routinely had to borrow money from his brother. He didn’t become famous until he was dead and the rich made mad money from his art.
To this day it makes me sick to know that some of my rock n roll heroes have to work day jobs even after selling millions of records because the label took the majority of the profits and royalties.
There will always be art and there will always be starving artists and people will get rich off them.
Maybe this applies to David, I don’t know his situation. But this thread reminds me of that old adage about the sad clown dancing around when he is dying on the inside.
If you aren’t bi-polar David you sure put on a good act because I think I am bi polar just from reading this thread.
continue on with the madness....

[Link]

todhunternet
Member

Burbank
38 Posts
12/04

Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 3:08PM

A long time ago, in a review of something by Our Friend Dave, in a moment of inspiration and enthusiasm I wrote "David Stanley's shopping lists are better than some people's completed movies."
As a longtime observer of David's work (I unfortunately pointed out a BIG plot hole in the first two minutes of "Big Game") I have watched him go through highs and lows, good movies, bad movies, and a fair amount of Big Baloney Sandwiches.
I look forward to seeing his work again.
--t

[Link]

Bob

All-Star Member

5516 Posts
3/03

Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 4:53PM

I don't want to derail this thread further by way of philosophical discussion of the non-aesthetic variety, but I don't feel as if I can leave your statement unaddressed.
Artists struggle because there's no such thing as a free lunch.
Reality provides two basic alternatives for lunch acquisition:
(1) The artist has to pay to eat (in which case s/he needs to make money with his/her art -- either through sales or private patronage -- or by struggling to make money some other way while still creating their art); or
(2) Everyone else has to pay for the artist to eat (by way of taxation and the government's selection of recipients for artistic grants, which selection the artist must obtain by hook or by crook).
I'd love to pursue my artistic interests to the fullest. If I didn't have a wife and two kids to support (whom, BTW, I choose to support and love to support), I'd do that. Wouldn't most of us like to pursue the artistic life, with all the freedom and opportunity for self-expression that it offers? I think so.
One life-style/life-project choice implies the rejection of another. Adults make their choices and live with the consequences. If they don't like the consequences, they can try to make new choices.
**********************
Edited by - bob on 6/25/2008 4:54:10 PM

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Bob

All-Star Member

5516 Posts
3/03

Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 4:58PM

^^^
Which isn't to say that I don't root for the success of struggling artists whose work I value. More art that I like in my world improves my world. Happier artists whose work I like makes me happier. Etc., etc.

[Link]

juha
Senior Member

2752 Posts
3/05

Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 6:51PM

Don't confuse Gonzo with All Sex.
Gonzo is about breaking the fourth wall.
The early All Sex 16mm and 8mm films don't involve the spectator. Hence the aren't Gonzo.
Gonzo's image problem, from an artistic point of view, is the low entrance barrier. As has been said anybody can pick up a cam and call himself director.
But directing good Gonzo is almost as difficult as directing a Feature.

[Link]

juha
Senior Member

2752 Posts
3/05

Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 7:02PM

Tricia,
if you both have chosen not to meet why do you regularly show up on David's threads?
As much as I normally enjoy reading your posts I don't understand what's the point of your participation in these threads.

Edited by - juha on 6/25/2008 7:35:35 PM

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juha
Senior Member

2752 Posts
3/05

Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 7:16PM

You've done a lot more.
You've given us all a great insight into your work relationship with David, into your own ideas about art and craftsmanship and about porn in general.
Let me ask you one question.
After shooting porn 25 days a month and having been able to pay all your bills do you sometimes go back into the cellar to write songs?
Or have you abandoned your dream completely?

[Link]

john lyons
Senior Member

Co-founder of Vinegar Syndrome
1188 Posts
1/08

Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 10:30PM

Gonzo WAS about breaking the fourth wall, at least when pioneers like Stagliano began making movies. But since then that aesthetic aspect of gonzo has been lost to the term being applied to any shitty porn where the "director" talks to much on the soundtrack or the "star" doesn't have the sense to not stare at the camera.
I would definitely agree that true gonzo is art, but in the hands of so many so-called gonzo directors, it's nothing more than an easy way to cover up shoddy filmmaking.
Many early stag films do in fact "break the fourth wall" in a somewhat similar way as gonzo. There is usually a great deal of interaction between the filmmaker and the cast in early stags, often in the form of conversation. It was extremely common in such early stags for the actress to receive filmed direction or engage in obvious dialogue with the director or cameraman while the cameras were rolling.

[Link]

SWorldMegan
Shane's World

213 Posts
5/05

Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 10:46PM

Mike ... That was a very well written post! With a lot of great points about the biz =) I really enjoyed that! Next time, can i get one of those drinks too? ;-)
xoxo,
Megan

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Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01

Posted - Jun 25 2008 : 11:13PM

Thanks. My IQ actually increases when I drink. Stone cold sober I can't complete a sentence :)
David, are you still out there? Lots of people are talking about you :)

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sdc
Member

236 Posts
4/03

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 3:25AM

David, more power to you. You remind me of myself before the medication kicked in (in the nicest possible way). I hope the industry can accommodate you for many years to come.

[Link]

Savoy

All-Star Member

Sucker for Sinners
1844 Posts
12/06

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 10:33AM

Posted on behalf of David Stanley:

To any and all offended parties,
I'm sorry for some of the things I posted about the gonzo industry yesterday. My attitude has been in the crapper about you guys because I can't make a living like I used to because of your popularity.
I know and recognize that there's a lot of well-meaning, gifted people in that industry. Some of whom, as I forgot in the heat of my over-heated anger, are friends of mine.
Good friends.
Anyway. I know it ain't much. But I'm sorry I said such horrible things. They were the words of a madman I usually keep locked in the trunk of my car. He gets out sometimes.
Long and short of it is that I can be a real negative sonofabitch when I feel boxed in and yesterday I did.
I may be a talented guy in some respects, but I'm socially retarded and always have been and I always say too much.
No excuses. What I said was shitty and I'm sorry.
And, ya know, if you were offended in a serious way . . .
Relax, it's just my opinion.
Is there truth to it? That I hate gonzo and think it's a crap genre?
Well, yeah. I do. I guess.
Unless I'm masturbating.
Then it's awesome with a capital o.
For orgasm.
And that's a beautiful thing and I say that without the slightest hint of sarcasm.
I love sex. Never had a problem with it. Wasn't raised to. Still don't.
That's why I do what I do (or did or whatever, tbc).
And that's why a lot of you do too, I imagine.
You crazy gonzo kidz.
What with your baggy pants and your Hi Definition Camerathingies. Shooting some girl in the back of a trailer, giving blowjobs to forty-seven horse penises, simultaneously.
You crazy, crazy kidz.
Fuck it. More power to ya. Indie spirit. Fuckin' a. Way I see it, we're all in the same boat, trying to sail to sexier, funkier shores.
And what with youporn and it's gazillion spin-offs serving as the iceberg to sink our once mighty Titanic en masse . . .
Fuck it even more.
Sorry I wrote such hideous things.
I spent too much time in corporate porn . . . it turned me into an asshole at some point. I need a break, I tells ya.
Sincerely,
David Stanley
Click to expand

Sadly enough, Mr. Stanley won't be hangin' 'round these parts anymore, but he does want me to tell anyone and everyone who's interested in reading more of his writings to reach him via MySpace - [ invalid url ]
He will be blogging there on a regular basis.

[Link]

juha
Senior Member

2752 Posts
3/05

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 11:19AM

Thanks, Tricia and Stormy.

You did a great job chasing away the most gifted writer from this board.

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juha
Senior Member

2752 Posts
3/05

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 11:22AM

Thanks, Savoy,
unfortunately I can't read David's blog because it isn't public.

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Savoy

All-Star Member

Sucker for Sinners
1844 Posts
12/06

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 11:38AM

Just join MySpace. Send him a friend request. Once he adds you, then you can read the blog.
No excuses. Do it. You'll be glad ya did!! :)

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john lyons
Senior Member

Co-founder of Vinegar Syndrome
1188 Posts
1/08

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 11:40AM

It's a great shame David will no longer be posting here. I added him on myspace though so hopefully he'll be keeping up his writing there.
I don't know if I'd "blame" Tricia and Stormy for chasing David away. They certainly made statements which were rude, but they, like David, are entitled to express their opinions.
The fact that they both personally attacked him and his art was a bit un-called for but David did also attack Tricia's art so, as things go, when fire meets fire everyone gets burned.
The resounding thing is that on account of childishness on all sides a talented filmmaker will no longer be posting here and that is very saddening.

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juha
Senior Member

2752 Posts
3/05

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 11:45AM

I'm old fashioned. I'm reluctant to join myspace or any other online social network.
I wish David came back to ADT.
But I understand his decision after the hostility he had to face in this thread.

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juha
Senior Member

2752 Posts
3/05

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 11:56AM

It was totally uncalled-for.
One industry member just lost all he lived for and two other industry member who do exceptionally well come here and make rude statements.
Someone already kissed the dust and two other keep stamping.
That's not classy its not even acted professionally.
I know Stormy and Tricia couldn't care less about my opinion.
But I'm disappointed about their behaviour because they came across classier in the past.

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stormydaniels
Member

171 Posts
3/04

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 12:12PM

Juha, are you fucking serious??? I did not attack David, I said numerous times that I like him. I spoke negatively about his BEHAVIOUR. Tricia and I only spoke the truth (which is what I ALWAYS do whether it is pretty or not and MOST people appreciate my honesty). It is not my fault or problem if David cannot handle the truth. What about the nasty things he said about Wicked and the gonzo industry? IF you knew all the details, you would not be so quick to sing the praises of Mr. Stanley. To attack our "class" when Tricia and I have always maintained our professionalism in the industry is not only wrong, but ironically you are doing the very thing you have falsely accused us of doing to David.
It is sad to think of how long Tricia and I have been posting on this board and communicating with our fans and when someone new comes on, you so quickly turn on us. I have always known a lot of porn fans can be fickle, but you take the cake. Congrats Juha, you may have just chased Stormy Daniels from the board.
"Who needs enemies, when you have friends like this..."

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skronker
Notable Legendary Icon

Scopophiliac
9780 Posts
9/02

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 12:17PM

You said what I was trying to think to say.

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tricia_devereaux
Evil Angel DVD

Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous?
4283 Posts
4/00

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 12:45PM

Juha - I do care about the opinions of others. I hope you'll let me try to explain my motivations.
When I said so pointedly that David and I hadn't met, that wasn't true. We had been standing with mutual friends a couple of times at industry events, including the AVN Awards. He chose not to speak to me. Once when I was introduced to him by a mutual friend (because I WANTED to meet him), he made a really rude comment about gonzo porn not being real movies. So we've been introduced, but thanks to him, never met. After that encounter, I never again wanted to actually meet him. It was like wanting to met someone that you thought was really talented, and then being incredibly disappointed with who they actually were in person.
To the person who said I'm normally classier, I appreciate that, and I hope you understand that when my claws do come out, it's for a reason.
This is what I feel that I said to or about David before: that what he did that was the final straw that got him fired from Wicked was indeed a reason I agreed with Wicked for firing him over. In this thread, he admits it was a stupid thing that he regrets. I only got involved in the other thread because I respect Wicked as a company, I adore Steve Orenstein, I have several friends that were on the crew that day, and I have come to respect Stormy as a person, not just as a force within this industry.
I had been aware of what happened since the evening it happened, but didn't say anything until people started questioning Stormy's motives.
In this thread, I called David artsy and arrogant. I did so after he said that he thought that gonzo porn should burn to the ground. Why? So that only features can be made? Why can't both types of porn be made? He may not be aware of it, but John didn't get to make the movies he really wanted to make when he was simply 'for hire' for other companies. He saved away his money that he made from those movies, and financed the movies he REALLY wanted to make.
Before David made his comment, I was attempting to point out to him that yes, the 'money people' in the corporate world get to make the decisions of what their money is spent on. I'm not saying that he didn't understand that. But yes, I get incredibly frustrated with people who think they're owed something. I understand that he has a lot of fans, but if the money brought in by those fans buying the movies doesn't pay for the movie to be made, then it is no longer a viable financial option. On top of that, if the artist is difficult to work with, then the 'money man' may not have as much incentive to give it another shot.
I have had much worse things said about me and to me on this board and others. How should I have known that a guy who said such hateful things about the company where I work and that I love, couldn't handle me saying something back?
He left XCritic too because of criticisms. I took personal exception to him on forums because he found it ok to attack anything and everything he didn't personally find worthwhile, yet if anyone criticized him, he couldn't handle it.
I'm sorry that it appears that I 'ran' him off. If he had been the epitome of graciousness, and I was just a flat-out bitch, then I'd have no choice but to agree with you. But if someone's gonna be an ass, and I call them on it, I feel that I'm entitled to that. It appears that he is well-suited for a place like Myspace, where he can choose the people he can talk to, and keep out people who have any criticisms of him.

[Link]

juha
Senior Member

2752 Posts
3/05

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 12:51PM

Well, calling somebody bi-polar is a pretty serious attack in my opinion.

I didn't turn on you.
I'm just a fan like most people on this board.
I will neither meet you, Trica or David in person.
I only know you through your work. And I know David's work for a longer time than your work. So it's definetely not a case of being "fickle".
I don't know anything about the drama behind the scenes.
I don't know who is "right" and who is "wrong".
But in this situation, he being unemployed, you being most successful contract girl, contract writer, contract director, you shouldn't attack him on a public messageboard.

This wasn't my intention.
As I said before I enjoy your work and would be glad if you keep us posted on current and future projects.

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juha
Senior Member

2752 Posts
3/05

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 1:01PM

Thanks, Tricia.
Now it is easier for me to understand your former posts.
Hopefully Stormy doesn't call me fickle again for this answer.

Tricia,
perhaps I shouldn't get involved in such disputes.
Due to my lack of English I may come across more harsh than I intended.

[Link]

tricia_devereaux
Evil Angel DVD

Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous?
4283 Posts
4/00

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 1:17PM

Juha-
I wasn't angry at you.
I'm not sure why I get so riled up when I see people doing the whole 'oh woe is me" thing. Maybe it's something deep down from my childhood observing my mother who never took initiative to make her own life better.
Maybe it's been enhanced by being with John for 10 years, and seeing people expect him to finance things, when he worked so hard to be able to have what he has. Every single week he has someone who wants to be an Evil Angel director, and even if they were all amazing, there just wouldn't be room for them. It's a great life, but a stressful one.
Oh, and don't worry about Stormy. I don't think anything could run her off. ;)

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Harri Patel
Senior Member

#SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele
5110 Posts
3/03

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 2:26PM

You should see the drafts I didn't post in this thread.

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Flash

Golden Age Classic

11018 Posts
5/01

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 2:27PM

WTF? They just responded to statements he made. I liked conversing with him but if he's going to make a statement he has to accept the responses he's going to logically get.

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john lyons
Senior Member

Co-founder of Vinegar Syndrome
1188 Posts
1/08

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 5:37PM

Kudos to Tricia for her two latest posts and just generally for being a voice of reason.

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John-O 76
Member

If you like cauliflower you're going to love me.
84 Posts
3/03

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 5:51PM

I liked your interview with Elvis Info Net.

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SexyHard
Member

673 Posts
6/07

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 6:02PM

^^^ I think Stormy and Tricia have both acted admirably, and don't need to defend themselves.
I've been trolling this thread for the same reason people watch train-wrecks. I feel sorry for David, but I can't blame others for reacting the way that they did. Even David can see that he got himself fired....
....In this thread, he said things like, "I truly fucking hate gonzo and everyone involved in it," and that gonzo is "shittier than a Scottish toilet." in response to a post by a woman who (a) is married to the man widely credited with creating the genre, and (b) is now facing federal prosecution for her work.
He even recognized (too late) his mistake, describing his writings as those of a "madman" and a "negative sonofabitch."
Tricia pointed out that John started his own company, so he could make the kind of porn he loves. But David's broke, and, based on what I've seen here, I can't imagine anyone investing in him.
I feel sorry for him, but I sat here and watched him dig the hole even deeper right on this page.

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Bob

All-Star Member

5516 Posts
3/03

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 9:50PM

^^^
Well said!
Trashing other people's stuff is a poor way to sell your own. David's movies shine on their merits. If that's not enough, nothing else will help anyway.
I'd like to see David return to ADT once he's gotten his head screwed on straighter. He writes well and has a lot to offer.
*******************
Edited by - bob on 6/26/2008 9:50:59 PM

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ryderskye
Member

Sometimes you just have to pee in the sink. ― Charles Bukowski
88 Posts
9/07

Posted - Jun 26 2008 : 11:38PM

The porn David Stanley is different than the David Stanley related to Elvis.

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skronker
Notable Legendary Icon

Scopophiliac
9780 Posts
9/02

Posted - Jun 27 2008 : 2:53AM

I find the strange fawning fandom over David Stanley to be perversely interesting ... Never seen any if his movies and barely know who he is ... Stormy, you are cute when you're mad [:P)]

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XXXenophile
Member

343 Posts
1/07

Posted - Jun 27 2008 : 6:10AM

Having seen some of Stanley's movies, I find it interesting too.
They're not bad, they're just for a different type of porn watcher. One who I think is definitely in the minority of what they like to see.
Art house porn is definitely the right description. And it works for some, not for others.
But like others have said, Stanley admitted whatever he did to cause being dismissed from Wicked was his fault, he takes the blame, and admits it was bad.
That's better than most disgruntled employees.
Hope everything does turn out well for him. As much as everyone likes his writing, it also strikes me as the type of stuff one says before doing something drastic. And that's something we surely don't need for him to do.

[Link]

moodyblues
Member

307 Posts
1/08

Posted - Jun 27 2008 : 7:42AM

I hope that he can find some positive way to channel his creativity, i.e. Clips4Sale. There are many people making nice sums of money on that site selling more fetish-like short clips. I don't know what he made at Wicked, but there is the potential for him to make enough to stay somewhat financially solvent. All the best to him.

[Link]

juha
Senior Member

2752 Posts
3/05

Posted - Jun 27 2008 : 8:33AM

A journalist who proudly admits that he lacks basic knowledge of some aspects of his topic?
This happens only in porn and sport journalism.
Perhaps because they are first fans and second journalists.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you have to like his stuff but i think you should have watched a feature or two.

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Clam Digger
Deactivated User

Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good.
2268 Posts
1/05

Posted - Jun 27 2008 : 8:41AM

Let me say that I have found this thread to be very interesting and am sorry David feels that he has broken some sort of code that prevents his further participation it or ADT. Even those who found his posts annoying have stated their respective criticism in a more or less reasonable way.
The context of this thread seems to boil down to the committed artist vs. the practical business person's perspective of what it takes to make things work. I think that it has been fruitful to hear both sides.
Tricia's comments, though sharp have not been over the top. Clearly her annoyance with yet another complaining artist are evident, but considering flame wars that I have seen (and even participated in),I found her comments reasonably mild and within bounds.
Good arguments make good threads, IMHO.

[Link]

threesomebody
Official BlowBang Judge

Would you like my autograph?
2491 Posts
12/04

Posted - Jun 27 2008 : 9:01AM

Yeah, no shit. I am just surprised that some were surprised.

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juha
Senior Member

2752 Posts
3/05

Posted - Jun 27 2008 : 9:03AM

I considered this as the "David Stanley appreciation thread".
That's why I asked Tricia about her posts.
And I appreciate her response explaining her motivations.
She's a damn good PR woman. Definetely one of the best in the biz.
And may I add she still has a fine ass as we all can see on the box cover of "Defend Our Porn". The DVD has a great compilation concept and a very important cause. I'll buy it.

[Link]

juha
Senior Member

2752 Posts
3/05

Posted - Jun 27 2008 : 9:14AM

.
Edited by - juha on 6/27/2008 9:16:59 AM

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