Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious - Brendan Gill 723 Posts 4/09
Posted - Apr 12 2010 : 3:18PM
Pretending my question is foolish is not a substitute for reasoning, logic, proof, or compelling argument, nor does it substitute for answering the question. It only suggests that you CAN'T answer the question, or are too lazy to bother. That you then proceed to answer the question only makes it a common and ineffective attempt to belittle it. You've done better. The value in any society of a profession is NOT dependent upon the level of training or intelligence required to practice it. Fancy yourself vital to the world because you've been to college if it makes you feel better, but imagine what your B.S, M.A., or PhD. would be worth in a world without people like garbage collectors, bridge painters, or even the much maligned burger flippers or porn actors that most seem to take for granted. This civilization allows doctors and lawyers and researchers and smug arrogant college graduates of all kinds to even have a place in it, because THEY do the dirty work, the high risk jobs and the jobs frowned on as degrading or immoral by thoughtless sanctimonious fools, like you are being at the moment. If it weren't for the people who do the hard unglamorous unsophisticated jobs, we'd all be too busy just surviving to BE lawyers and doctors and corporation chiefs. Like I said, the importance of what anybody does depends on how much you need it at the time. As a rule, we, at least we here on ADT, and I would suppose most other normal humans, need what porn actresses do a damn sight more often than we are likely to need lawyers, research biologists, or business executives. All of which means that I'm NOT trying to "put the job of "porn performer" on the same level with professions that require a high level of education and training" Actually, I'm inclined to put them, on the basis of their real value to society, on a rather HIGHER level than many professions that require a high level of education and training.
Shake for me girl... I wanna be your backdoorman ! 2776 Posts 10/07
Posted - Apr 12 2010 : 4:38PM
I haven't read this entire thread so someone may have already asked this of the OP. Do you feel shame for watching porn stars do what they do ? Seems only logical you do if you have to ask such a question.
duefuss, I've been reading alot of your posts. Are you a writer? I'm just curious. My sister is a writer, and you sound alot like her sometimes. Lol. All I know is, next time I get into an argument, I think I'll defer to you to do my arguing for me. Edited by - ilvbutt on 4/12/2010 4:54:59 PM
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious - Brendan Gill 723 Posts 4/09
Posted - Apr 13 2010 : 12:35AM
You might want to look up some new all purpose witticisms on the 'net. The two you use over and over again are making you sound pathetic.. Actually, You're just giving your version of the facts. Six paragraphs and nothing was said -- to YOU. Of course not. They CAN say nothing if you didn't read them, which I doubt you did with much attention. But, even if you did, there was nothing in them you would agree with. That's obvious, and was when I wrote them. So why did I write them? So that people different than yourself -- people with OPEN minds -- might see them, read them, and have something intelligent to say on the subject that would add to my own understanding, pique my own curiosity or start an interesting discussion. That's a reason I write a lot of what I do on ADT. By the way, those standard little dismissal lines of yours may seem like wicked put downs to a few, but to many, if not most, they might be seeen for what they are -- tacit admissions that you can't really argue with what was said, that if you try to you'll only make a fool of yourself, or that you know you're wrong. Which is it this time?
Hold on a second, porn stars not skilled? I would think being a porn star is a highly skilled occupation. Everybody can have sex, but how many of us can make it look good? Granted, lighting and camera work does add to the look and feel of it, but I would argue that some performers are really good at what they do and are very much skilled... some might be naturals, but I would think that most of the really good performers are THAT good because of much training and practice. Watch an early work from Gianna Michaels, for example... then watch a recent film of hers - there is a world of difference imo, and I think she is the type of performer that only gets better, dirtier, and nastier in the best ways. As far as feeling shame... I would really hope not. I think a performer ought to take pride in knowing that their performances have turned on so many people. Take pride in having fans that want to see them get down and just fuck. Also, pushing their sexual limits, and trying out new things... I would think that would be exciting. As far as I am concerned, porn stars provide an invaluable service by providing material to fantasize to, masturbate to, and seeing the different types of acts and positions can spice up one's sex life.
Porn is work. A lot of work. First, there's the business side of it all. You have to be savvy enough not to fall for the bogus assholes posing as producers and agents. If you make it through that, and a lot of girls don't, you need to be able to manage yourself. Even with a good agent, you have to know your limits and know what you're getting yourself into. Because of how society trains us, yes, a lot of girls feel some amount of shame, but we all find ways of getting through it, or the girls get out. The ones who are in it for a couple month and then vanish? They couldn't deal with it. Some girls get into drugs, others rationalize it in unhealthy ways, while I think the majority who stick with it, myself included, just come to terms with the fact that society is full of hypocrisy and what we're doing really is okay if WE are okay with it. Then there's actually getting into porn. At first, a girl needs to prove herself. She has to show up on time (hard for some, sadly), keep herself disease free, and make spend money she doesn't necessarily have at first on hair, nails, wardrobe, birth control and STD tests. Actually shooting, it pays to remember Rule #1 from Zombieland: Cardio. Have you tried reverse cowgirl while standing? It's a workout to say the least. You also have to think about your performance, something I'm still figuring out. Do you look at the camera? Do you ignore the camera? If you're supposed to look at the camera, what do you say that doesn't sound cheesy saying in front of a set full of people? I'm almost considering improv classes. In any case, you have to manage those things, AND you have to keep it hot too. So, then you shot porn, and you've cashed your check and paid off some of those debts you incurred getting into the biz in the first place. Now you have a whole new set of stressors you need to deal with. Who do you tell? Will your family accept what you've chosen to do (remember that whole "dealing with it" thing?) or will they disown you? What about friends? Oh crap, don't look now, but here come the fans. Most are actually really cool people. Some, however, are creeps. Anonymous messages start coming in: "Can I lick your toes while shoving a chicken head up my ass?" Seriously? If you think porn can get crazy, try being a porn star, you'll hear shit that simply never crosses most people's minds in polite conversation. If you're lucky enough, you become a big name, and then you get to travel. Bree Olson travels A LOT, and she doesn't like to fly, so she drives, for hours on end. There's appearances, dancing the feature circuit, conventions and a porn girl has to balance all of those obligations with her regular life too. If she has kids, like Teagan Presley, it means working twice as hard because you want to be a good mom too. Sure, there's gotta be a couple girls who just lay on their back, collect some cash, and then go shopping for shoes and panties, but I'm willing to bet that they're in the minority... Just sayin...
I've always kind of thought that some of the porn performers that say something along the lines of "porn is great. get paid to have sex." were being sort of sarcastic or something, and just totally understating how really difficult doing porn is and inwardly laughing at all those that think porn is easy work. Personally, that statement along with the performers that say of acting in porn "I don't do porn to act. I do porn to fuck" has always turned me on because I like to think of my favorite performers as being sexually gifted.
Don't get me wrong, I love fucking, and doing it on camera is a blast! But there's definitely work involved... It isn't just laying on your back, you know? Even in every day life, good fucking requires working up a sweat. It's my favorite kind of work out :)
Clayra thanks so much for your posts on this thread. Its so refreshing to get a pornstar's view rather than just conjecture from us the fans. Porn babes do often say what they are told to say but if we get to know them just a bit better and chat with them one realises just what a tough BUSINESS the porn biz is.
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - Apr 13 2010 : 4:07PM
Okay, first, you've said it yourself with the line:
No, just an old English major with more time on his hands than sense in his head. Secondly, I said it before and I'll say it again, it is laughable that you put porn performer on the same level as highly skilled positons as fighter pilots, heart surgeons, ministers etc. And, not disagreeing with Clara or any other performer reading, yes I'm sure it is work, and I'm sure there is a lot BS that goes with it. But the reality is if you're going to equate porn performer with a profession, it'd have to be pro athelete as they have a very short but highly paid shelf life. Yes, some do have long careers so I don't need a contridiction on playing years, but outside of baseball, the average pro career is about 4 years at best. Thirdly, my comment about 6 paragraphs and nothing said is right on the money. Just because a few people believe they would hire you as a stunt arguer doesn't mean you should believe you're own press. You as an english major should know more than most people that you have to get your point across as quickly as possible. Basically, less is more, unless of course you're getting paid by the column inch. I equate a lot of what you said with a person at a party who talks to hear himself talk and doens't provide a lot of material for others to comment. Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread topic as to whether porn performers feel shame. Probably the only ones that do are the ones quoted on the Shelly Lubben site with the words "bodily fluids on my face but I had to do it as I wanted to get paid."
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Apr 13 2010 : 4:24PM
Instead of comparing porn performers to fighter pilots () why don't we compare them to something sensible like mainstream models? Despite what America's Top Models would try to make you believe basically you're either born with the look to be a model or you're not (putting aside eating disorders for a minute), no skills required that a monkey couldn't learn, yet they can make ungodly loads of money. If porn performers are so overpaid why do so many of the women go into escorting or stripping, where they can make more money? Essentially, the really good looking girls in porn get at most a few productive years, the average girl maybe 6 months. Hardly a pot of gold by most standards.
Trust me, we aren't over paid. Consider that I'm just starting off. Lets' say I do a shoot for a company and I make, at most, $1200 on the shoot. That's all I ever see from that shoot. The folks who own the content throw it on their website and let's say they charge $30 a month. They need just 40 new subscribers to pay my fee. Are there 40 dudes out there who want to see me get nailed? Out of, what, 4 billion men in the world, it's a safe bet they'll find 40. Let's even round it out to say 120 subscribers that month just to pay for the whole shoot, because the guy gets paid, and so does the makeup girl and the photographer. There's probably not too much of an issue, even if I'm brand new, to find a cute young blonde get nailed. Then let's say they throw that on DVD and sell it. Even with piracy today, I'm going to guess they're going to make enough to be comfortable, even after paying everyone involved with the production, and I made $1200 of it. There isn't a residuals thing going on that I know about, and most of the time, no one makes $1200 on a shoot. Sure, it'd be nice to make more, but I don't see that happening. That's why so many girls who stick with thie start up their own sites and try selling videos that way.
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious - Brendan Gill 723 Posts 4/09
Posted - Apr 13 2010 : 11:49PM
Too wordy for you Roscoe? How about this: you're a snob. Short enough for you? Your notion that "less is more", period, strikes at the heart of all your arguments. They are simplistic, full of thoughtless conventional notions that you seem to have accepted without question, and they ignore that all people have different needs depending on their situation. Why are doctors always and in every situation more important than porn stars? Certainly, a doctor might save your life, IN A PARTICULAR SITUATION. And IN THAT SITUATION, a doctor is without question more important than a porn star. But if you want to be turned on, if you require sexual release, IN THAT SITUATION, a doctor is about as useful as an anvil on a long swim. You want to agree with society that values doctors more than porn stars. I want to point out that everyone's importance -- dotors', porn stars' yours and mine, to any individual at any given time, depends on what that individual NEEDS. If he doesn't need a doctor, the doctor is useless. If he doesn't need a porn star, the porn star is useless, and so forth. The way you would have it, a doctor is always more valuable than a porn star, a lawyer is perhaps more important than a plumber, a fighter pilot(how'd he get in on this?) is more important than an infantryman. I would say that a soldier in Iraq would tell you that infantryman watching his back is a LOT more important to him than some fighter pilot sitting at Langley, that if your pipes are leaking a plumber is a damn sight more important to you than a lawyer and so forth. You want to assign a general worth to each profession and then compare them, saying this one is more valuable than that one, period. You can't DO that logically. All professions have value: more on occasions when their skills are needed, less when they are not. If you are impressed with the training required for some professions or the money made by others, and value them by THAT criteria, you are being prejudiced on the basis of money or education, you are not being realistic nor are you learning from your OWN experience. Are doctors more valuable than cable installers? Did you call your doctor to come hook up your TV set? Are doctors and professors and CEOs more valuable than you? Then, when your wife wants to feel secure and happy, when your children need to know they are loved, they will call the doctor or the University, or the CEO of the biggest corporation in town, because they make more money or have more degrees or are held in higher esteem by the community. Silly isn't it? Human value, the value of skills and experience and education isn't a measure of years of schooling or salary or glamor or risk. It isn't a contest with the most important at the top and least important at the bottom. Value is something everybody has to somebody sometime, and NOBODY has to everybody all the time.
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - Apr 14 2010 : 1:00AM
Okay, ten paragraphs get ten answers then I'm done on this topic. #1 I agree completely, no big secret there. (this is a push) #2, Huh????????? Makes no sense on your part, so I'm +1 #3, Doctors save lives, that's why they will almost always be at the top of the food chain when it comes to respect. +1 for me. #4, I don't need a Dr to get turned on, nor do I need a porn star, as I know some interesting females. The Dr.can provide me with a Viagra refill as I do need the occaisional boost if I'm going out to a party. Dr. takes it over porn star, so +1 for me. #5 You make a valid point, but ask the average person on the street and I'm sure that regardless of whether you need either at any point in time the Dr will win out. It's not like there is Porn reform bill in congress. But we'll call this a push. At the present, I'm up 3-0. #6 Your first sentence, Yes, No and insert some joke about a lawyer being full of shit and the plumber keeping it moving, and yes based on the whole education/training issue I've mentioned before. You mentioned fighter pilots first. And yes, and infantry man watching my back in Iraq is much better than a fighter pilot halfway around the world in Langely, but there's lots of combat helicopter pilots providing a hell of a lot more firepower than the guys on the ground carry, so yes the pilot wins out. And I'd no more have a lawyer fix my pipes as I'd have a plumber defend me in court, both are skilled positions. +1 for me. #7 Yeah, its why people go on to higher education. The higher the education level, the higher up the phone chain you go. Yes there are exceptions to every rule, but it's the basic fabric of why we go to school. +1 #8 Well, yeah I'm a snob, remember. But most of society would feel the same way, and you're right I'd call the cable company first to fix the cable if I couldn't do it myself, but don't discount the steady hands of a dr when it comes to fixing something manually. Don't forget, they went school for roughly 12 years so they didn't really didn't have time to go to the 6 week (or however long it took) cable installer school. +1 for me. #9 As you admit, you're just being silly with this one. +1 for me. #10 For the first two sentences - it is too. That's the very fabric of our society. For the last sentence, you just paraphrased the sentence "You may be only one person in the world, but to one person you could be the world" or however the exact wording is. For your lack of footnoting, you lost one of the pushes, so final tally is Me 9, you O, with 1 push. Edited by - rosco fuji on 4/14/2010 1:05:10 AM
If i were to meet any of my favourite porn babes i would thank them for a service they have provided for me! These girls are out there fulfilling our fantasies for us to watch and enjoy. Do any of you feel shame for watching porn? if not, then why should the performers feel shame for making it? If you do feel shame for watching it - stop. Just as pornstars should not be in the business if they feel shame for making porn. Im just grateful that these seriously hot women are visually creating our fantasies. Porn has always been around and always will be. Lets not get moral and sniffy about women that every one of us would be desperate to spend just 1 night with! Cmon you know it....
This kinda went from" do we feel shame?" "to porn people, girls in particular shouldn't be respected", hmmm.... I don't think that we don't deserve respect, of course I wouldn't ;) But if you don't think we should be respected because we are dumb and unskilled that's very close-minded. There's plenty of drop-outs who never even got a GED I'm sure but there are also HS grads, Trade school grads, College grads, med school students ( not sure if any actual doctors but I do know of lawyers ), and even the lovely girl I won't name cause I'm not sure if its common knowledge who once owned a Nascar team. Believe it or not some people do it for the fun ;) I don't think cause we let people tape us fuck for distribution that we shouldn't be respected as people. Thats harsh. There are a lot of scum bags in porn just as there are in the world period. (eww period lol) If you don't know me personally than I don't think you can fairly judge me. Yeah, I've snorted cum on video after being fucked in my ass until complete satisfaction... go watch. Now meet me in person, I bet you'd never think I've done that! Now, think about all the people who do this nasty shit in the privacy of their own home. They could be the people teaching your kids, never know! People like to explore their sexuality, try new things, keep it spicy, get a little kinky. These people could be cops, doctors, plumbers, psychologists, you name it. I'm sure at least one of my teachers was a cum snorter, and I still respected them ;)
xoxo Kelly Divine
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Apr 15 2010 : 12:12AM
You don't seem very familiar with age-old concept of the double standard. Edited by - realtip on 4/15/2010 12:14:08 AM
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Apr 15 2010 : 12:28AM
Not necessarily. Whether you're a woman in porn or not, I might just assume you've done it at some point in your life. I've learned from experience that some women who are the most prim and proper in outward appearance can actually be some of the nastiest nymphos on the planet. Undercover freaks all of you! ;) Edited by - realtip on 4/15/2010 12:30:15 AM
No, just an old English major with more time on his hands than sense in his head. But thanks for the kind words.
) why don't we compare them to something sensible like mainstream models? 