I was poking around DB's webpages, getting a good laugh and a couple of boners, when I came to her Like-Don't-Like-Hate table. As I read over it, I realized that the next couple we're likely to shoot is going to be doing about 8-10 things that are in the Don't Like or Hate part of the table.
Hmmm.
I've been operating on the premise that people who don't like porn don't object to what is shown , they object to how it's shown . It will be interesting to see what DB thinks of our next film.
I'm sure you'll find many people who disagree with my list, and have their own dislikes, but it's just my personal turn-offs.
As for people who don't like porn - I'm pretty sure that they lump all porn together and just don't like it, period. I doubt if it has anything to do with how things are presented, although I could be wrong.
To Tony's credit, he apologized and offered to take down his post when I pointed out that these like/hate lists were on my Couples Porn page only, and just to give the reader some sense of my tastes in porn. Most people who click on my Couples Porn page are looking for good couples porn oddly enough, and I've listed many 4 and 5 star suggestions, based mostly on other's reviews.
Except for a couple of extenuating circumstances, I've worked hard to encourage the things that I DO like about porn, and I've never "gone after" the type of porn that I don't like. It would be easy to so, but that's not what I'm about. Even when reviewing the hardcore gonzo I try to keep in mind the intended audience and judge it accordingly and fairly.
As I pointed out in other threads, whenever someone objects to anything in porn, they are charged with being 'anti-porn', even though the majority of my reviews are quite favorable.
I hope that you're just expressing a dark mood, because I appreciate hearing your point of view even if I don't always agree with it (although, of course, I often do).
DB, I also hope you're just suffering from a temporary malaise. I read these boards a lot and, particularly when browsing the main board, sometimes feel as though I've completely missed the point. Having said that, there have been a lot of interesting discussions here recently and it would be a shame to lose a respected contributor. To use your own words (albeit slightly out of context), we need "more variety, not less".
It was actually the reviews that first brought me here. As I live in the UK, and renting isn't an option, reviews are very important in deciding between potential purchases. It was for this very reason that I decided to post reviews here myself but, for the time being at least, lethargy and other commitments have got in the way. Anyway, I'm sure your reviews are appreciated by more people than you realize and I hope you continue to write them.
I sure hope not! Your hates are just about the same as mine Besides, porn seems to have hit a wall insofar as content goes. It seems the only way from here is to focus on story. Act driven porn, IMO, is just plain boring. I didn't care for some of the acts in "Fashionistas", in fact I probably won't watch it again, because the film is riddled with stuff that makes me cringe. But the story was good! And I think as a result of that, the movie was given every award pornland can shine up and hand over.
Maybe from here on, we'll get at least some good stories. Good stories require character development, plot and some sort of counterpoint such as humor. It would be disappointing not to have those potential movies reviewed by someone who does it as well as you do, DB.
In no way did I mean to imply that I thought DB was a porn hater, sex hater, or man hater. But now that I've had a chance to see things in a different light, it's not hard to imagine that she's had all three spat at her at one time or another by someone upset by the intelligent critisism she's leveled at porn.
What I had hope to accomplish with my post was to provoke an intelligent discussion of "acts-driven" vs. context in pornography. Anyone who's seen my work knows that providing an engaging context is my number one priority in the pornography I create, and I strive to ruthlessly exise anything that distracts from or degrades that context.
In the (yet to be produced) film in question, my operating principle is there nothing that can't be made intriguing to an open minded audience, regardless of their personal sexual likes and dislikes, if the context is sufficiently rich and compelling. There's some small evidence that this might be true. I've seen my SM scenes enjoyed by people who previously regarded SM as disgusting. I've showed a graphic fisting scene to a room full of people who had "no interest" in porn and been warmly thanked for making such a powerful and compelling movie. Any artist's goal is transcendence; on occasion I manage to achieve this.
By citing DB's "Hate List" I only meant to say that in taking on this next couple, who are likely to engage in any number of extreme sexual acts, I was going to have to hold myself to a very high standard (i.e. good enough that DB could at least appreciate the scene, if not enjoy it) if I was to personally regard the work as successful. If I hadn't been so intend on "teasing" the board with what's next, I would have made this clearer.
I hope this is not the case. Long ago I gave up on the idea that there was anything I, as an artist, could learn from porn; and nothing that my wife and I, as a couple, could enjoy about watching it together. But not a half and hour after I made the post in question my wife and I were reading your review of Thick As Thieves . My wife's eye sparkled with expectant delight as I read your review to her. I'm hopeful that Thick As Thieves might just have something to offer us, either creatively, sexually, or both.
T.C.
Edited by - TonyC on 9/18/2003 9:16:11 AM
Edited by - TonyC on 9/18/2003 12:30:29 PM
[Link]
DenverDon Benevolent
Firmly Embedded in Depravity 5914 Posts 7/02
Posted - Sep 18 2003 : 9:06AM
SB,
Don't give up just because your list got posted. You had posted it anyway at your site.
Also remember that a few months ago a thread was started "Get to know your reviewer". There were many others that posted in that thread what they liked and didn't like, so you're not alone.
I hope this was just the Jagermeister talking as I enjoy reading your reviews and you have helped me find several movies that I have enjoyed. I hope you reconsider things later and continue to write reviews.
Although this thread is about Blondie's hate list, there's enough of a overlap between her list and mine that maybe it'd be okay for me to share my perspective.
When I think of "rough" porn, I think of The Fashionistas, since that's the roughest I've tried. It was a fascinating experience for me. I gave it five stars for the artistic quality, but that movie has haunted me ever since.
I've been lucky in life. I grew up in a household where one parent (my father) was alcohol dependent and intermittently suicidal and verbally violent toward my mother. I'm lucky because I was never physically or sexually abused. My basic needs were always met, and most of the time I felt loved (though there was some question in the back of my mind whether that love was unconditional).
S&M and rough porn are dicey for me because I come to it with this background. It's not like my parents were overtly into S&M, not as the term is usually understood. But it's probably fair to say that there was a pretty strong power dynamic taking place between them. Consensually, I might add. They were both free to leave, and they chose to stay together.
Here's the thing. After watching all those real-life psychological plays for power and the compulsive urges to mix pain and love, I believe I've already seen enough.
It's exceedingly difficult for me to witness this dynamic in porn and to set aside all my personal feelings long enough to write a meaningful review. The more I've watched and the longer I've thought about it, the more difficult it has become. It's exhausting. I haven't written my last review, but I've probably written my last review of a movie from that genre.
Context does make some difference, but there are also specific sex acts that I've seen (more than once) which consistently hold little or no erotic charge for me. Breath play (choking, smothering, underwater submersion). Slapping. Verbal degradation. Especially verbal degradation.
The point I'm getting to is that the artist has limited (if any) control over how the work of art will be interpreted. Those who view the art each come to it with their own stories, which will play into their own interpretations. So I've never considered it the job of the artist to create anything except that which pleases him or herself.
Which does also make me wonder why I'm writing reviews. My writing helps me to clarify my thoughts to myself. But beyond that, what's the point of my evaluation?
Oh, and you know what I love? I love hearing good-natured laughter when people are having sex. I am fortunate to have found and married someone very special who brings this out in me.
Beautiful, wonderful, pure breaths of fresh air! I mean it; no sarcasm, no cynicism.
I just want to say: thank you.
Just when I start feeling myself staring into the Abyss too long, something like this snaps me out of it. You reminded me how fortunate I am to have the same kind of relationship. It keeps me sane and alive. I'm going to buy my wife something nice tonight and hold her and weep with joy. Some days, it really *is* good to be alive.
Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99
Posted - Sep 18 2003 : 1:26PM
DB - your voice is needed! plus your screenshots/captions are the best comic books i've ever read.well, if you're looking at it from the point of an artist creating a work, your "evaluation" is a response to that work. always interesting for the artist, and other viewers, to see the response. the whole point of the work is to get the response.
Those two posts of yours were very moving. I can certainly understand how you feel. My father was a manic-depressive and intermittently suicidal, although he never abused my mother. Growing up with a pathologically unstable parent leaves its mark.
When I wrote my original response to your post yesterday, tears were streaming down my face. What you wrote brought back to me so vividly the memories of growing up in that house. The sense of sadness that persists just below the level of my conscious awareness broke through to the surface and washed over me like a wave. I posted about my emotional reaction and then, feeling ashamed of showing so much emotion "in public", I deleted most of my post later in the day.
I'm restoring the gist of it now, in part to show support for you and your brave expressiveness, and in part to acknowledge and support that part of myself that remains unhealed. Healing comes only with recognition and acknowledgement.
Dumblonde: Please keep writing reviews and posting your screenshots - theyr'e some of the best and funniest reading I've had on this site. Plus, I desperately want to know what you (and Yogagrrl) think of porn films.
As for your hate list, I concur with 70-80% of it. Even if I see an act, no matter how tame, where the woman looks uncomfortable or in pain, I immediately get turned off.
Tony C: If you have a couple that really enjoys S/M play, and you can film it so it shows they enjoy it and trust each other, that's fine with me. In regular porno films, there is no trusting relationship to back up the rough sex/degradation that's filmed (I mean, the 2 people are just being paid to perform together), and that's what bothers me a lot about these scenes.
The only time I have been able to bear watching a rough sex scene was in Rocco's Way to Love, the very last scene with Rocco and Kelly Stafford. He's really slapping her hard, and she's moaning in pain, but she also really looks like she enjoys it. Apparently, this is her lifestyle outside of film, so what she is doing on film is not an endurance test for her. Plus, they have worked together a lot, and that shows on the movie.
Every other rough sex scene I have ever watched has bothered me alot because it was clear that one or both of the actors was just trying to persevere until the director yelled cut.
Blondie, don't shut up because you're not in the vocal majority. I was at your site just recently & suddenly felt less alone. I may be more ambiguous with my relationship to violence and degradation but I also agree that there's no talent in 95% of these rough sex movies. It's like suddenly all those new "directors" become annointed the prophets of nu-sexx just because they could plant their camera in front of a Czech import getting two dicks shoved up her asshole while the word "cunt" is displayed on her forehead. It's so borderline , so groundbreaking , so now that they forget that this camera can move. But you know what ? There are also so many bad features that I need your reviews, hon. I will never be tricked into buying a Jerome Tanner ever again, however fabulous Sky looks on this airbrushed boxcover. Except if you tell me this one is good.
Love...exciting and new Come aboard...we're expecting yooooou
Well, I agree 99.9%. I would go 100% but I can accept gapes and ATM occuring in a natural fashion, which I agree isn't what's happening anymore.
Furthermore, I have found you to be an honest, engaging writer, and a pretty good humorist, to boot. I may not always agree with you, but I certainly don't want you to stop in consequence.
Blondie, keep writing those reviews! I write mainstream reviews and every so often I get flak from people who disagree vehemently with what I've written. I think the internet seems to bring out the worst in people when it comes to communicating their disagreement. If we worked in the "legitimate" press, we wouldn't get this flak. Nobody calls Roger Ebert a m*****f****** sh****g sheep******* ******* ************, but then again maybe they do, and the replies don't get published
As to porno content, it must be six months since I bought my last mucky movie - they're just getting too nasty for my liking. I agree 100% with your hate list, not least ATM because I can't figure out how one would f*ck a bank money machine.
Thanks, Steph. This might surprise you, but I'm not sure I've ever really thought of it that way. I suppose you're right, though. I'll have to ask some of my artist friends to see if they agree. I've made lots of art that I've never shown to anyone, or else I've shown it to only a few family members or friends. Most of my art is a deeply private process. I don't do it to get a response; I do it because sometimes it's the only way I can get to sleep at night.
I only have a minute, but I can't tell you all how much your words have cheered me. Thank all of you. Despite the negative beginning, I feel that it's turning into a positive thread and doesn't have to be just about me and my hate list - it's a pretty short list afterall, and I don't think it's unreasonable. Looking it over however, I probably would move one or two things to my 'merely dislike' list, hee hee.
I'll try to add more thoughts later tonight or tomorrow.
With a few exceptions (which are normally portrayed as being something that the woman enjoys engaging in, as opposed to the majority where she's shown as not wanting to participate and not enjoying herself) I agree wholeheartedly with this list.
If any of these appears in a movie there's a very good chance that I would never want to see it.
(Probably the one notable exception is ATM because I don't think I've ever seen such a scene involving that where the woman makes a face and pulls away, resists in any fashion, or expresses obvious distaste in what's happening. Most of the time, in fact, in those few scenes I've seen, she's been the one to initiate it, and to at least seem to enjoy it.)
However, I should also add a qualified statement that I'm not making a 100% hard and fast rule.
I watch mainstream movies that show people committing murder, rape, and torture. I've seen movies in which there's been vomiting, drug use, degradation, and so on. In all of these movies it's there for a reason, and it's not glamourized or put in for the edification of the viewer. The intent of the director is to make the audience turned off by these scenes. (And want the detective who's investigating the crime to bring the offendor to justice, or for the protaganist to clean up their act and become a better person, etc.) That's why I like watching CSI and ER - even though the actual subject matter is distasteful.
That's the real difference. In almost every pornographic movie made where any of these elements are shown - they're being shown because the director/producer thinks that the viewer enjoys the acts themselves. They're filming it because it's targeted at an audience that gets off by seeing that sort of thing. In every single one of those cases, I will stay as far away from such a movie as humanly possible.
So, in the above sense, TonyC is right that it's context, and not content, which makes all of the difference. So long as the movie shows these negative acts in a negative way, arguing against them, making people rise above them, or, in the rarer cases, making it explicitly clear that both parties are engaging in something that they mutually enjoy (by showing them laughing and caring for each other in "normal" ways outside of the activity itself - or even during it) then it becomes what I consider to be acceptable and perhaps even sought after if it's done properly.
But good luck finding something like that in almost any of the adult movies out there. In almost every single case, they will not be presenting these things in a healthy, negative light.
Blondie, You can't give up no matter how hopeless you think things might be. I agree with you more than ever, and I dont think I could do without my twin , we think far too much alike. Your reviews give those a good idea what to avoid when it comes to those "jaded" porn zealous type movies. In your reviews you may not like certain acts, but you rate it fair, just for those who the movie might appeal to their liking. And Yogagrrl, does an awesome job too.
JMO said: "I agree 100% with your hate list, not least ATM because I can't figure out how one would f*ck a bank money machine."
Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00
Posted - Sep 21 2003 : 8:26PM
blondie - i have always found your reviews very entertaining, and the point of reading a review is to gain information about a movie that will tell the person if they would probably like to see it or not. I definitely think your reviews offer that to people.
Oh, and until I read the other posts, I didn't really think Tony C. was saying anything bad about your lists. Not that I do now.
Blondie you must not quit reviewing!!! My career will nosedive if you hang up your keyboard!!!. I've always appreciated the thoroughness in your reviews. Everyone can tell that you actually WATCHED the movie. Plus, you gave my movie KARMA a kick ass review and have been very kind to me since I left Metro for Zero Tolerance.
In many ways, you are the voice of reason on this site.
I can too can appreciate the side effects of Jager but don't let it effect your long tern judgement :)
Blondie, I haven't previously posted on this thread because I though to do it justice I'd have to compose some big carefully-thought out thing.
But I'm gonna take a shot at the short form. I found this site while looking for reviews -- google brought me to your couples reviews page. The primary reason I stayed on this site was the presence of women, and your voice was very important in that. I enjoy your commentaries!
I'm back, I've sobered up, and thanks to all of you I have a whole new outlook.
I will carry on, through the creampies, cum farts and couples porn... in the gapes and through the gangbangs, no matter what the cost to my sanity. I will never surrender.
But seriously, thanks. I didn't mean to turn this into a pity party, and I fully support what Tony is trying to do in porn.
Now let's all have a group hug ( this is a porn site afterall )
Hmm. There's something not quite right about the juxtaposition of the parts of that sentence. "Hug" and "porn site". I'll have to think about that... <grin>
Wow, I skip this thread for a couple days and miss all the drama! Good to hear that you're staying on Blondie!!! It wouldn't be the same without you!
Thanks to Blondie, Yoga, and Bob for really baring their souls here. I also appreciate what Tony's trying to say here and have to say that after the thought and care I see him putting towards his movies here I'm really looking forward to seeing some of his stuff!
Like Astro, I'm late to this thread. And like Lindi, to really do my feelings justice, I'd need to take a little time to compose what I have to say, but now that it's resolved I'll go for brevity.
SB, I love your reviews. You've steered me in the right direction on more than a few occasions. More than that though, you've kept me on my toes, opened my eyes, and brought a fascinating perspective and a great sense of humor to both your reviews and the forum, and I would consider it a terrible shame if you decided to stop participating.
I'm glad to hear that you're not throwing in the towel quite yet. I won't if you won't... :)
Thanks for your kind words guys :) Astro, your reviewing skill and output is amazing, and Mike's are almost works of art!Deal. I'll admit that my commitment wavers at times, but I don't feel that it's completely hopeless.. not yet anyway.
