To answer your question, I was probably 18.

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What *is* an affectionate and prideful name for female genitalia? I asked my wife long ago what we should call "it"; "pussy" is so grade school, "cunt", "twat" and "snatch" are so vulgar. I don't know. Maybe a poll?

I know she (my wife) grew up not masturbating, and her Mom is so easily embarassed she never discussed sexuality with her or my sister-in-law, either (mmmm...I'd love to discuss sexuality with my ... oh, where was I?).

How can I convince her to talk to our daughters about it? I had a hard enough time getting through her shell, getting her to explore her sexuality with me and break through her inhibitions; all worthy endeavors and ultimately successful.

But I can't very well employ the same tactics with my kids. This is Alabama and all, but ... Seriously, I want them to have healthy attitudes about their bodies, and boys, good self-esteem, and avoid that whole sex/love conundrum... but so much of this is traditionally the Mother's realm. I hope she's ready. I'm sending her a link to lindi's column. I think it'll help.

Thank you, lindi! Your warmth, humor and honesty are kryptonite to my lack of faith in humanity. And yes, I'm in a silly mood today...DUH.

The question(s): I was always a curious little tyke, so the answer is "younger than I care to admit". I tried to bugger a cousin when I was 3, if that's any indication.

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T.C.

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The Origin of The World by Gustave Courbet, 1866.

But it looks like the rule of 'no pussies' for avatars might rule it out. Still, I wanted to share it here -- it seems on topic to me. In the chatroom I have been told that the picture is 'nasty,' though I think it's beautiful. Apparently, the pussy that was beautiful and desirable for thousands of years is out of fashion now, for the last ten years or so, as there is *gasp* hair growing near it.

And in the big picture, I see that as another way of making the natural pussy seem unclean and in need of some kind of rehabilitation to seem acceptable. So sad.
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Edited by - lindi on 10/16/2003 4:20:31 AM

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On the subject of a woman feeling a modern obligation to trim or even shave bald her pubic hair . Isn't this a continuation of women shaving their armpits or waxing their legs . Is it truly a sign of their distaste for their vaginas or perhaps more part of womens' endless quest for the body beautiful ?

A completely separate thought ( thanks for the great article by the way ) couldn't it be that a woman's distaste or fear of her 'hole' is because of our preprogrammed revulsion at our internal body . What I mean is , to prevent us from cutting ourselves open in curiosity or from pulling out our intestines were a horrific accident to occur we seem to have all been born with a revulsion for those slimy inside things . Maybe a woman's vagina is caught up in that whole ' healthy ' protective mechanism . ( And yes I'm well aware that pain should stop us from cutting ourselves but it's surprising how many people visit the A & E having overcome this response ! )

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Additionally, the shaving of leg hair in this country goes back no further than 1915, the advent of shorter skirts heralding the flapper era, and was evidently inspired by one woman in one movie who shaved her legs for a smoother look. Shaving, like most beauty practices (or all) was then driven on by the cosmetics industry, which benefits mightily from making people feel inadequate. It is my understanding that the razor industry, frustrated for years at not being able to persuade the women in Mexico to shave, researched the reasons for their reluctance. They found that hairiness was a mark of status there, since women of Spanish heritage (and higher caste), were hairier than women of Indian background. The corporations charged back into Mexico advertising the basic theme that hairlessness equals status, and were thus able raise insecurities enough to capture the market.

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No , I'm only joking . I can see that looking back on my previous post it could be interpreted that I endorsed this false view of beauty . Actually that line you quote is one of my favourites . All I can say in response is that I try not to see Russian Submersibles but that the pace of life often overwhelms that good intention .

Most of the thoughts I'd had in response to your response ( that's one whole lot of responding ! ) remind me of a thread on the Ms Boards that SueR linked to . The women there were pointing out how men always feel the need to search for a solution and tilt their discussions in this direction . Whilst women tend to look for empathy , understanding and a damn good laugh .

On this track I could easily agree with you that advertisers the world over have a lot to answer for , as they are often responsible for stirring up negative feelings . However my more mannish brain would then respond that this tactic wouldn't work if those feeling didn't already exist and that women ( those who could afford it )have been wearing makeup and sweet-smelling perfumes since at least the time of the Pharoes . Not sure how many Ad Execs were kicking around back then ! A similar argument could be used against any dates and times at which you feel woman became aware or felt coerced into making other cosmetic changes to themselves . I'd guess the Bikini / Thong is a prime modern reason that many women shave their pubes . After all they would never have been on show in the past .

But then again none of these arguments are valid as I have already said I stand alongside you in the battle for greater acceptance of a wider variety of beautys .

Think we may be fighting a loosing battle !

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Two cents on shaving, male and female: it can be practical, whether or not aesthetics are involved. I hate saying or hearing "p-tooie" during oral sex, or "hang on a sec...thip thip", and it increases sensitivity, too. A tongue on shaved labia or balls feels better when it's smooth, IMHO.

The ongoing maintenance is a *bitch*, though. Stubbly regrowth - Ouch!

If you extend the metaphor to a man's face, most of us have beards if we don't shave. We now consider clean-shaven faces to be "natural" when hairiness is the natural order of things.

BTW, I've used my face sexually since I was 17. Before that, I did look in the mirror and wonder what it would look like with a pussy mashed against it. As it happened, she was untrimmed and unshaven, and my face was shaved. Now, 15 years later, I like licking a smooth cookie and have neatly trimmed facial hair. What does this mean? The ZZ Top look is out for both beards and chochas? Sometimes change is good!

I say that a lot, though.

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Hah!

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What I was trying to do was distinguish the idea of beauty as something natural that a woman possesses, from the idea that it is a standard to be aimed for, and preferably purchased, because of her innate lack of it.

Cleanliness is nice. Adornments that draw attention to and complement her beauty - a ribbon in the hair, eyeliner, perfume, a bracelet -- nice. But the idea that a woman is sadly lacking without taking major (even surgical) interventions just seems sad to me. There are women who won't leave their house without makeup, and women who get up in the morning earlier than their husbands to ensure they can be 'presentable.' I think there are still women who want the lights off or low during sex, or who avoid sexual positions which expose them too much or in an 'unflattering' way - perhaps female superior or doggie.

It's not that shaving is so extreme, and I've occassionally done it myself for variety, but it is suspicious to me that it is only so recent, and that there is so much pressure for it.

My own experience was to hear nothing at all about my pussy until fifth grade when I heard what a problem and embarrassment it might be for it to leak blood, and later how it might need a 'feminine spray,' and how it could prove to be dangerous if I should indulge any boys on that playground. Now I'm wondering at what age girls feel pressured to shave it, and I'm thinking that somewhere along the line some positive things should be said to them about their pussies. In general, it was basically conveyed that my face was acceptable, my elbows, my toes, etc., but not my pussy. In the past week, more than one man has told me that his wife (in her thirties) will not kiss him if he has her pussy juices in his mouth, or that she wipes his mouth first. There is still a very real sense out there that the pussy is 'nasty.'

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I toyed with the idea of doing one of my reviews with the wildest euphemisms I could think up - eg. he pumps his pulsating eel into her quivering eel cage, while the other guy shoves his baguette into her breadbasket, and then maybe they switch partners, and the one guy's eel would end up in the breadbasket and the baguette would end up in the eel cage, but, you know, I haven't got around to it yet!

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On the avatar - while I do not have a problem with it, or with Kimi's previous one, I have to draw the line somewhere clearly for those who don't understand things like "tasteful".

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T.C.

P.S. I think Lindi and Bob should have a love child.

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Edited by - TonyC on 10/16/2003 5:16:13 PM

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And about "cookies" - that was actually the first slang word I ever learned used to describe a girl's vagina! Back in the early 70's when I was in kindergarden I happened to be playing doctor with one of the little cuties in my class and she asked me if I wanted to see her cookie. Naturally I said yes and the rest is history...hehe

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