As for the dudes, I can't relate as I am not watching to see dudes. They shouldn't even be involved. That's what dildos are for. lmao. But no, seriously, they shouldn't be paid as much as the women. They are not the commodity, really.
As for whether women get better treatment...doubt. You don't have dudes blow up to be super famous then quit the industry and tell the whole world some chicks forced him to drink piss and vomit. Women are rarely in any real power when it comes to the pro-scene aspect of the industry. Hell, most companies won't even talk to a performer unless she is getting pimped out by an "agent" the company owner knows. Even after girls prove they show up for work, they still have trouble getting booked for scenes after they quit having an agent because it's ultimately about controlling the women.
I'm not in this business. If I were, the least of my issues would be having sex with people on camera.
Women should be paid more than male performers. Sure, that's fair and I never said they shouldn't. Also women have been paid more since the beginning of porn as far as I know. So your point is?
So you like sex with dildos. That's fine. I prefer to see intimacy performed between two people.
Forcing someone to drink piss and vomit. I haven't seen that without consent yet. That would be a crime. In that case abusive people are the problem not the industry. And it should be taken to court.
How can a professional studio rely on an individual (thousands of individuals) without a middleman aka a well renowned agency? They have big stakes, trumped up a team of people and a location for a set date, all of which has to be paid for.
I like porn and the Golden Age of Porn 1947 Posts 9/21
Posted - Apr 23 2023 : 11:23PM
^^ People need to stop calling agents "pimps" because pimps actually do a better job at protecting their performers. A pimp wouldn't let a "john" beat the shit of out a "hoe" for 2 hours without them getting pistol-whipped for 3. Bad joke, just like porn agents.
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Lezzyist Deactivated User
Make Porn Erotic Again 1736 Posts 9/19
Posted - Apr 24 2023 : 4:33AM
Lol you are the one who mentioned a difference in pay.
I'm aware you are not in the business. You wouldn't have sex on camera, probably for many reasons.
If a 19-year-old girl, goes to be ALONE with some guys who have clout and can influence her future earnings, she more or less has to do what they say already, and that's before taking any fear of potential violence into account. Sometimes studios have the women shoot the "everything went ok" video BEFORE they sexually interact, which should be criminal. Did you know most studios shoot a video of the performer saying everything went OK? Why do you think they have them do that? Because sometimes things go VERY NOT OK. Sometimes performers report on Twitter that they get threatened with not getting their check for the scene if they don't agree that everything went OK on the set. And who is going to make the producer give the check if he (because most producers are guys) decides not to give it to her? Not the performer, not the performers pimp whoops I meant agent but NO ONE.
The performers have no power and they are often physically alone with people who don't give a shit about them. Whatever happened in the scene that traumatized August Aimes... several people sat watching as it happened.
Performers usually have NO ONE to back them up if they speak out about something. For one, speaking up is a likely blacklist from every company in the industry that the accused person is cool with and other performers are afraid of it happening to them.
And if you think the justice system cares about physically violated women...well, I don't know why you would think that. Add that the hypothetical woman in question was doing sex work and her chances of being taken seriously decrease even further.
As far as whether agents are necessary, it makes sense to want a reference about someone before staking money on them. I'll give companies that. But after a couple of times working with a performer they should be talking to her directly, unless she just doesn't want to deal with it.
I was listening to an interview of one of the bigger porn directors and dude said he does reach out to performers themselves at times, but he respects the process and usually gives the money to the agent even if he had the performer in mind of his own volition. One reason directors want to "respect the process" is that agents can (AND DO) deny companies booking certain girls if they have a personal issue with the director or if they would rather have another girl take the job instead.
TLDR: There is an imbalance between the women performers and all the dudes that hold the power and influence in the porn industry.
I've heard that before. How young newbies are being pressured with fear tactics. "If you don't do this now it's too late" or "if you don't do this you won't get very far". Unpopular opinion but 18 or 19 is too young start with porn or anything that affects you for the rest of your life for that matter. But this is no longer about Kenzie Anne (30) or Vixen. Vixen stars are usually already settled in the industry.
It will be really empowering if productions had female models choosing their partner. Though, won't that be interfering with casting? I'm more for objective improvements like better pay etc.
I like porn and the Golden Age of Porn 1947 Posts 9/21
Posted - May 4 2023 : 2:30PM
Most female models have a "no list" and most mainstream porn studios only use a small list of male models. I don't think casting is a big problem, just studios need new blood.
Right, some behaviors I just don't notice both ways. Considering the use of anecdotes, if women are treated so much better than men, how do you explain this: http://www.lukeisback.com/stars/stars/alex_devine.htm The scene is still posted online and she's not exagerrating. There's another thread with a discussion of this scene, but it comes to mind here. I'm not aware of any women treating men this way in a scene even if some get aggressive. Like, I don't know of any scenes where a woman is repeatedly punching a man with him continually telling her to stop punching him with a ring on her finger. It got to the point where she said that if he does that one more time, she's leaving. Rather than intervening to stop this, the directors were quoted berating her and saying things I'm not going to repeat. I realize the movie was called Donkey Punch, but there was much than just donkey punching (which is aggressive enough in itself). I also don't know of any scenes where women donkey punch men while f**king them from behind. Just saying it's not the exact same for women and men.
Also, has anybody seen the documentary "Hardcore" and how Max Hardcore treated Felicity behind the scenes? I'm not aware of female performers or producers treating male talent in this exact way. It's also posted online.
Edited by - Tessa on 5/4/2023 8:45:53 PM
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Lezzyist Deactivated User
Make Porn Erotic Again 1736 Posts 9/19
Posted - May 4 2023 : 11:12PM
^That's disgusting. Sorry, I know people have "kinks" but I really do wish ill on anyone whose porn content is about punching women...or even getting punched. ALOT of the porn industry is about hatred towards women. That's the root of pedo and incest content. That's the root of slapping content, even if some like it. That's the root of fake-rape content, even if it has some cathartic effect for people who experienced the real thing. I think that's the root of anal content popularity as well. Not that there are no women who enjoy anal, just pointing to the root of it. (A painful anal thread? Rapey.) All that shit is rooted in wanting to see women abused. Is it fantasy? The fantasy of wanting to see abuse, maybe. An added *bonus? All that shit makes attacks on the industry as a whole easier.
If that guy was really punching her repeatedly, she should have left and come back with a...well I shouldn't say what I want to say.
But whoever proposed a "only one single little solitary punch to the head, not alot of punches" scene, along with the producer and director who actually created it, is hopefully...not in earthly form anymore.
I like porn and the Golden Age of Porn 1947 Posts 9/21
Posted - May 5 2023 : 12:55AM
"Is that legal? I guess technically it would be the same as a girl getting her ass spanked in a video, but brutal scenes like these are what attract unwanted attention from anti-porn advocates, dont'cha think?"
That quote from the article is the main reason the industry needs to clean up its act. Basically, sites like "Facial Abuse" shouldn't exist on the surface web This stuff isn't BDSM, it isn't a story, it's just hardcore abuse. After rough scenes like these do they do any type of "aftercare"? I have seen hardcore scenes from Japan that had aftercare, they give the performer a blanket, everybody claps, hugs it out and the woman gets flowers.
^ as if its okay if they get flowers and a hug after. Why aren't women paid up front after agreeing on scene terms and boundaries? After reading the above I feel like that is part of why these women allow stuff to happen. Afraid of not getting paid after.
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Lezzyist Deactivated User
Make Porn Erotic Again 1736 Posts 9/19
Posted - May 5 2023 : 3:26AM
^^Japan recently passed a law that performers can stop the sale of a scene for up to like a year after release without giving money back, if I understood correctly, so alot of that stuff is going to change too. The producers who continue are going to have to make sure performers are 1 hundo percent beyond comfortable.
Producers in the U.S. should be on pins and needles at all times. That they feel any audacity at all is a problem.
I like porn and the Golden Age of Porn 1947 Posts 9/21
Posted - May 5 2023 : 4:32AM
What? dude, giving a performer real "aftercare" is only one aspect of running an ethical porn shot. Money isn't going to help whatever mental damage they got from shooting scenes like "Facial Abuse". The industry needs to do more than just give pornstars more money. In BDSM, scenes are negotiated on and have safe words & "check-ins", after a scene the sub gets "aftercare". That's how it should be done in porn. "Aftercare" is an important of BDSM play
^ I feel the best way is to remove any obstacles like worrying about getting paid is the way to go. Some women might be absolutely okay with rough stuff while others would rather walk out of there if their boundaries are crossed. And they should have that chance. Mental damage from a scene that sounds crazy, with or without "aftercare"
I was referring to "donkey punch". Should have quoted: "I actually stopped the scene while it was being filmed because I was in too much pain. I begged for him to remove the ring but he refused. That almost made me walk off the set and say 'fuck it'. I sucked it up and wanted to finish so i would be paid. Witht he ring on his hand still, we continued the scene."
She has every right to get paid, so I'm not judging her negatively for wanting to get paid. The producers and directors who aren't being subject to this abuse get paid most likely way more than she does. It's not about what she did such as whether she stayed, but about what he did and the directors' lack of action. From what I noticed, she didn't allow this to happen because he didn't ask and she was telling him to stop until it got to the point where she said she would leave if it happened again. It shouldn't have gotten to that point. It might not just be about wanting to get paid, but needing to get paid. Sex workers are human beings making a living. Our bills and living expenses aren't free. Time is money when we're working.
Most porn performers aren't under contract with a more stable income, so they only get paid per scene. She acknowledged that she knew this would be a donkey punching scene and was aware there would be some aggression, but it went beyond that to the point where consent disappeared. Performers may turn down one gig due to a time conflict with another, so blaming her for this by saying she could have just left is victim-blaming because it's placing the onus on her when she's wasn't the one who was being abusive or violating consent. She shouldn't have to leave and even if she had, she still should have gotten paid the full amount or more since he was violating her boundaries, so she would have had a valid reason for leaving. Some people were victim-blaming on the other thread as expected (unfortunately), though some were supportive of her and denounced the victim-blaming.
I agree about removing obstacles to worrying about getting paid. Being paid before the scene could be a solution. However, I see producers and directors disputing this by saying "What if we pay the performers and then they just walk out without doing the scene?" Well, they have the right not to hire these performers again and it's not in the performers' best interest to do this for no reason because if they gain this type of a reputation, it can be harder to get work. Another solution that's more of a compromise is to pay half up front and then half at the end. Yet, I realize people can criticize that too and there's no guarantee of perfection.
With heterosexual anal, some people might not know the prepping women performers do. Though this may be different for different women, it's common to avoid eating from to night before the scene until after the scene is over the next day, plus use an enema before the scene on top of that. Some women apparantly didn't know ahead of time to replace the solution in the enema with water, resulting in very embarrassing occurances.Edited by - Tessa on 5/5/2023 12:17:17 PM
The tone of this thread has shifted toward discussing abusive, misogynistic porn- which is an important topic even if uncomfortable and I encourage the conversation to continue. However, if anybody is interested in an alternative to this type of porn, you may wish to check out "A Mes Amours" https://pinklabel.tv/on-demand/film/a-mes-amours/ I don't watched much porn and often don't finish watching a porn video that's 126 minutes, but this was intriguing and just felt like watching a positive, uplifting movie except the end. The sex scenes were short, probably no more than 5 minutes each and different from mainstream porn.
Though one of the main characters was a full-figured woman and there was a Black man, race and body-type weren't fetishized or mocked. In fact, there was no mention of race or body type. They were just regular characters in the movie like everybody else. The plot involves a sociology graduate student named Lola staying with a couple in France over a summer while working on her thesis about gender norms in monogamous heterosexual relationships. Lola is polyamorous and develops a friendship with them while guiding them in exploring open sexuality. There are no abusive or in any way aggressive behaviors. Nobody in the movie is the villian. The movie is in French, so people who don't know French can click the captions button for English subtitles. Not sure if there are subtitles in more languages. The artistry, scenery, music, and character development is good. The only part I didn't understand was why Lola felt how she did at the end. My sense is because she couldn't handle the constraints of living in a sexually repressed society that imposes monogamy on people. Has anybody seen this movie?
Edited by - Tessa on 5/5/2023 3:17:44 PM
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Lezzyist Deactivated User
Make Porn Erotic Again 1736 Posts 9/19
Posted - May 5 2023 : 12:00PM
One thing that needs to change about feminist porn sites: They tend to be the least navigable. I can understand the ickyness about using tags and highlighting tags as a site feature, but making browsing more challenging than average for people to find exactly what they are looking for is counterproductive. I am looking at PinkLabel right now, and I know how to get to the lesbian tag because I have been to the site numerous times, but doing so isn't obvious. Also, you can't easily tell which are the newest productions.
Out of all of them, LustCinema is the most well-made sex-positive porn site. The others really need to follow suit. Quirky is cool and all, but that needn't be a quality of the functionality. These sites still need to encourage purchases like any others. --
^^It feels like you only have to listen to about 3 episodes of any given porn podcast before you hear a poop story.
On PinkLabel, there's a search box across the top center where people can enter the topic they're searching for. So, if somebody is looking for lesbian videos, they can type "lesbian" into the search box.Edited by - Tessa on 5/5/2023 2:29:53 PM
Lezzyist, please do not insinuate that people who watch anal porn hate women and/or want them to be in pain. I enjoy watching anal scenes, but not the ones where the female performer is clearly struggling. And my favorite performers to watch doing anal are those like Phoenix Marie and Adriana Chechik who enjoy it in their private lives and that really comes across on screen. I was also uncomfortable regarding the painal thread, though I wouldn't say it was in and of itself inherently "rapey", though it certainly contains individual posts there that are.
I like porn and the Golden Age of Porn 1947 Posts 9/21
Posted - May 6 2023 : 1:03PM
But some of y'all are overly obsessed with anal sex and annoying. just saying
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Lezzyist Deactivated User
Make Porn Erotic Again 1736 Posts 9/19
Posted - May 6 2023 : 1:26PM
^^Is the point of that thread to see anal videos where the women are *not* in pain?
I can't say that literally every anal fan is a certain way, but the overall thrust of that content is what it is. In any case, that's better than the "watch her get punched in the face" people, if only marginally so.
Rinsing the rectum and anus should be part of everyone's shower routine. I call that hygiene. A big plus is that it feels good. If it's not squeaky clean inside and outside I wouldn't let a partner rim me or even get near it. And I wouldn't feel very hygienic all day long.
^^ I disagree that the "overall thrust" of people watching anal is due to women being in pain. Of course, there will be some who like that, but I expect them to be the minority.
I already said that I was uncomfortable with the painal thread. I just disagreed with your choice of word. Not every post there made me uncomfortable, so I wouldn't want to tarnish every poster there under the same brush.
Enemas do more than just rinse the rectum and anus, though I agree with rinsing there as part of the shower routine. Though I'm no expert, my understanding is that enemas are medical devices for constipation. So, if somebody uses these without being constipated, can it make them more dirty or be bad for the bowels since the purpose is to make people sh*t. From my understanding, that's what enemas are intended to do, not just make people clean.Edited by - Tessa on 5/6/2023 6:58:41 PM
It's a really good movie. After watching it, please share what you think of the ending and the meaning of it. I'm interested in how people interpret this.
Feminist is a politically loaded word. Occasionally some woman in entertainment says she doesn't like the feminist label, and various other women in her field go berserk in attacking her. I prefer humanist or humane porn. Even in girl girl, there are usually some guys standing around, holding the mic or camera and scratching their butts.
I like porn and the Golden Age of Porn 1947 Posts 9/21
Posted - May 7 2023 : 9:47PM
It's a loaded word because of right-wingers and misogynist men. Most people have a misunderstanding of feminism and the feminist movement, not all feminists are the same, and the values and beliefs of feminism have changed many times over the years. The term or genre "feminist porn" is really just a label in porn, that I believe tries to connect some core values of feminist theory.
There's just so much going on right now. It seems almost a weekly occurrence that I read about abuse in the porn scene towards women. Without searching for it, just by looking at my Twitter timeline. I'll create another thread about it as I feel fans should know about it when they choose to subscribe to their sites.
I like porn and the Golden Age of Porn 1947 Posts 9/21
Posted - May 15 2023 : 11:26AM
^ Great, I was wondering where all the threads for this round of allegations are. Was it you that thought just paying people more would solve this problem? Guess what, it won't
I like porn and the Golden Age of Porn 1947 Posts 9/21
Posted - May 15 2023 : 11:53AM
^ "I feel the best way is to remove any obstacles like worrying about getting paid is the way to go. Some women might be absolutely okay with rough stuff while others would rather walk out of there if their boundaries are crossed. And they should have that chance. Mental damage from a scene that sounds crazy, with or without "aftercare"
you did go back and edit most of what you said but I think it was basically that.
I like porn and the Golden Age of Porn 1947 Posts 9/21
Posted - May 15 2023 : 11:56AM
Oh, it was this ..
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Lezzyist Deactivated User
Make Porn Erotic Again 1736 Posts 9/19
Posted - May 15 2023 : 12:15PM
I think the women should get paid in full before the scene. That would be one additional factor encouraging solid behavior, since they get the check whether they finish the video or not. Of course, that doesn't work when the performers are working together to have content for their personal sites and no one is getting paid. I could also see the corporations hesitant to pay ahead of time, and to that I say the women should be paid at least 50% ahead of time regardless.
The men in porn should be on eggshells at all times, frankly.
Though I can't speak for Alizee, I don't think he was saying that money solves all the problems. Instead, I think he was saying that paying performers up front can be a way to hold producers and directors accountable so performers no longer feel like they have to do something that violates their boundaries or that they weren't told about upfront just to get paid. Though I'm not disputing this, there can still be situations where the performer shows up on set and before they get paid, are told they have to do something they didn't agree to ahead of time. Yet, they already took the time to arrive on set, may have turned down another gig for this one, and are depending on the income. What do they do...
However, paying performers before the scene starts can be a way to reduce abuse and exploitation in some scenes where one performer oversteps their boundaries with another like in that "Donkey Punch" video scene, which involved more than just donkey punching. If the performer were paid before the scene started, she wouldn't have to worry about tolerating the extra abuse just to get paid. This may be one reason performers aren't paid up front- gives producers and directors more control and ones who are exploitative can take advantage of this. .
- Recent allegations posted in Abusive male actors also make me wonder how studios can be held accountable. Performers often cannot choose who they work with. How can big companies like Vixen Media Group get away with pairing girls with abusive men or even convicted criminals? Makes me sick that they still work with Rob Piper for example.
Do we literally need creditcard companies to block all payments?
Edited by - Alizee on 5/15/2023 12:52:12 PM
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Lezzyist Deactivated User
Make Porn Erotic Again 1736 Posts 9/19
Posted - May 15 2023 : 1:12PM
Honestly, yes we do. What's really needed is a pro-porn/pro-safety government.
If the U.S. government wasn't just as garbage as most of these industry guys, we could have legal regulations and organizational bodies that could help to protect the women and curb offenders while still allowing for a porn industry. Unfortunately, with the government we have, performers are more likely to go back to being quiet about abuse because the government isn't likely to help them, and they really don't want credit card companies targeting the industry. Political organizations are pushing for credit card companies to deny service to porn, not just companies that hire abusers, but all porn companies in general.
Gotta elect a more freedom-minded government...which aint gonna happen. Things are only going to get more dangerous for sex workers in general in the immediate future, sad to say.
I like porn and the Golden Age of Porn 1947 Posts 9/21
Posted - May 15 2023 : 1:22PM
Ok, I guess I understand but what if content creators just pay women to be quiet about abuse they didn't agree to? Also, Most of the allegations now are coming from performers doing "trades" and small POV content creators. This is happening more and more with OnlyFan content creators. So, it's not just happening in mainstream porn
Agents could help a lot, but don't seem to be. You can't tell me agents don't talk and don't know what talent and directors are problematic. If they ceased booking talent for work with abusive talent and directors, that would go a long way in helping.
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Lezzyist Deactivated User
Make Porn Erotic Again 1736 Posts 9/19
Posted - May 15 2023 : 1:38PM
It seems that agents and directors, generally and perhaps not all, rely on each other to keep each other working. That's a conflict of interest as far looking out for the performers.
I like porn and the Golden Age of Porn 1947 Posts 9/21
Posted - May 15 2023 : 2:46PM
[Tweet is no longer available]
I just joined this site and believe sites like this are needed more than ever now. Feminist porn and porn directed/produced by women won't solve everything but it sure is a good start. The industry needs less unrealistic misogynistic abusive crap and more real couples, realistic storylines, and BDSM play. I try my best to only support ethical and feminist porn
^ like what Kayden Kross does for Deeper and Slayed.
I love story based and often watch vintage porn as that is what I like.
Was porn in the 80s feminist?
It certainly looks a lot more pleasurable for women. There was more seduction, foreplay, more kissing and the whole body was utilized. Women were women, not portayed as underage girls.
I've seen how thorough some girls have to clean for a pornset now. Basically rinsing the whole intestines. It seems overkill to do. I guess they want to avoid all possibility of leakage. I can imagine that it is unhealthy doing this on a regular basis. 😬
