I pay special attention to male talent while watching porn, as they're my main reason for watching it. I've never been struck by a feeling that, as a whole, the guys are thrusting too fast. I don't equate the rate of penetration with the quality of the sex.

Take Manuel Ferrara. That man's a jack-rabbit. He has two speeds; fast and faster. The female talent in his scenes seem to love it as part of the overall experience of working with him.

I guess I'm wondering which guys you're talking about specifically. I can't think of a single one (that I usually watch) that performs in the manner you've described.

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The thing is, those are two sides of the same coin. And a couple of simple, easy, zero-cost changes could make for some greatly improved scenes, in a lot of adult videos.

Edited by - woody d on 2/1/2007 6:07:13 PM

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The long and short of it is that the male performer is probably just trying to do the best he knows how, not to please the female performer or himself, but to please the viewer. In this case, you feel he didn't do that. Others may feel differently.

p.s. As a female person, I'm with Pagoda, the rate of penetration has pretty much nothing to do with whether I'm enjoying it or not - Experiencing or viewing.

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I realize acting ability in porn is practically non-existent, but these days, porn looks like two people fucking who don't want to. They can't even fake that any more. Even as shitty an actress as Christy Canyon managed to make it look like she really wanted to be in the sack with those guys, and they sure looked like they wanted to be with her, too.

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Lately, I've really been getting into "frantic fucking". I used to be into it a long time ago and kind of forgot all the things about it that turned me on so in the meantime, I just fastforwarded through most of it, not even giving myself a chance to like it.

My observations lately have been that the female talent actually really seem to enjoy it (Usually, anyway). And there's really not much that turns me on as much as seeing a woman who is obviously having a blast getting fucked. Most of the "real" orgasms (or the ones that look very real) I've seen in porn occur when the woman is getting fucked pretty good, fast and hard.

Plus, titties (and legs and butts and so on) just look so nice when they're floppin'!

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I kinda thought about the point you make above. I guess when the porn consumer says the want something like "more heat" in porn, they don't just want the illusion of it. They want the real deal.

Of course, this is probably just not possible in many cases. I would guess that it's particularly difficult for the female talent. Well, a man can't pretend to be turned on and enjoying sex. He either is or he isn't and if he isn't, it's perfectly obvious in the fact that he won't even be hard.

I don't think the guys who tend to fuck hard and fast are acting or trying to create an illusion (for the most part). I think that's probably the way they like to fuck.

Women....women tend to need more than just a hard dick (or even a good looking guy) to be aroused. This isn't the case for all women, I know (because everybody is different) but women are just wired different in general. Given that most porn fans are probably male, we just don't get it. We see a naked man and woman on the screen. They're both anything from adequately good looking to very good looking. They're both being paid to be there. The guy is hard and obviously turned on. So what's the problem? Why isn't the woman turned on? See, most of us men have very little to no insight into the way things work with women. We just figure if something is sexy to us, women will find it sexy as well. And while some women might, it certainly isn't always the case.

But anyway, for some reason, I always thought that women who do porn must be just as horny, filthy-minded and perverted as I am. Why else would they do it, after all? The money? Sure but you can make money anywhere. Maybe not as much but you don't have to do stuff you find disgusting in a lot of other jobs. So, anyway, that was my reasoning. I'm getting a better understanding since I've been reading this board but I'm still at a very basic understanding of many things.

At any rate, I believe this is what a lot of male viewers (particularly young or inexperienced ones) are expecting. They figure porn must be full of women who are just as perverted as they are so they don't see any reason why there wouldn't be more heat between the talent.

What they don't know and what has slowly become apparent to me over the years is that the true female pervert (and I mean that in the way that most men are pervs at their core) is a very rare bird. So rare, in fact that she's even rare in a business like porn. I haven't quite figured out if it's a cultural thing or if women truly are just that much different from men.

So...we see these scenes where the male is totally into it and giving his all and truly enjoying himself and everything the woman does seems fake and forced. Women (it seems) just don't enjoy sex in the same way that men (usually) do. It doesn't have to mean anything to us in order for us to enjoy it. The woman doesn't have to be anyone special. She can be some random girl off the street as long as she'll spread her legs. We want to totally let go of our inhibitions and do all the twisted things we always wanted to do. And we expect that somewhere inside every woman, there is that same perv screaming to come out. We don't understand how someone could just not have any twisted fantasies at all. Does not compute.

So again, when people say more heat, they mean they want to see people really let go of their inhibitions. If everything seems cold and clinical, it's a sure bet that at least one of the performers isn't really into it, is holding back for some reason or just doesn't care to be there at all.

Anyways....that was kinda off-topic (what I wrote not what you wrote) but I thought I should say it while it's on my mind.

But when it is the case...when the guy is just trying to please the viewer, it often shows (not only in the case of hard fucking but pretty much anything). Now I appreciate the fact that they're really trying to please me (and everyone else) but that sort of thing tends to turn sex (something that should be organic and spontaneous) into a procedure and that turns a lot of people off.

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Ron Jeremy may be a fat pig but did you ever once get the vibe he wasn't enjoying the girl he was with? THE GIRL, not getting his dick wet, but the girl herself.

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There are LOTS of things I'd love to see in porn. Many of them are never done. Just have to wait until someone sees it as a profitable product.

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-- Viagra and the like have changed things as far as erections go. A hard-on may not mean what it used to.

-- Men who can perform in porn have a way-above-average ability to control their cocks. I'm not sure that the rules that govern sexual response in most guys apply to successful porn studs.

-- A guy can maintain an erection simply by keeping a good fantasy going in his head while fucking. He doesn't need to be enjoying or connecting with his partner in order to do so.

-- There's sometimes a difference between being turned on and experiencing enjoyment. Some people are angry fucks. They may be able to screw and get off perfectly well while feeling and projecting pure malice toward their sexual partners.

Anyway, just some random thoughts.

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Fucking styles, hard and fast, slow and romantic, is a subjective question.
It may sound gay, but I would find a guy that fucked the girls the way I like to watch, and seek out his movies. If he's good and works a lot, you will end up seeing him fuck just about every girl in the biz. And you'll see her at her best.

Directors too. Some directors can consistently create a vibe that people seem to be comfortable in so they have the most fun.
Joey Silvera comes to mind, but there are others.
It's an intangible, and difficult to quantify, but you'll get a sense of it if you watch the good directors.

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You should post a list of some of your favorite pornos -- seriously. Because you have a great sensibility and you believe in what you do.

If you made a list of the stuff you liked, I'd find plenty of good things to watch that I've missed.

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Michael Stefano always looks like he's having a good time, too.

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Yeah..Viagra is a possibility. I haven't used it so I don't know but I wouldn't think it makes you cum. As far as I know, it just helps with the blood flow and such. So, there still has to be a psychological thing going on before the guy can cum (I would guess, anyway).

I guess you're right about the psychological aspects. Damn near anything could be running through the guy's mind while he's fucking.

Overall, I guess I just meant that it would be harder for a guy to fake it than for a woman. If she's a reasonably good actress, she can pretend to love sucking cock or getting fucked and you'd never know it was all an act until something happens that she just hates (the cumshot is usually a dead giveaway). And plus, it's just hard to fathom a man not loving getting paid to fuck hot women every day. It could be difficult keeping up if you had to do multiple scenes in a day or something but men, as a general rule, are just horny most of the time. As a man myself, I know this. I don't know what goes on in a woman's mind.

But I get your point. I probably couldn't be a male porn star (even if I had looks on my side) even with Viagra or something. My dick does not respond to my demands. It has a mind of it's own.

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But I see the issue at hand, and the one misse in the prouction, is that filming or video taping anything is not just catching the actual feeling of the moment. If all directors were to do as the posters in this thread have been asking the results are a forced documentary. A mere recording of events. I think a lot of directors are trying to force a reality TV look. It doesn't work. It is not reality.

So if the producers are to try to make what we ( I say we because I agree with the original poster) are asking here the talent has to be acting and acting very well.
Perhaps that is too much to ask, but it is an entertainment medium after all.
They did so much acting decades ago. Cheasey maybe, but it did work.

Edited by - YankNSpank on 2/2/2007 3:17:14 AM

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Good point about the hedgehog a holdover from when porn star seemed to have fun on the set.

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While I don't think I've made too many woman cum from frantic fucking, all of my exes except one certainly seemed to enjoy it (she was too shallow). I don't do it too often, too much and most say they are sore afterward or the next day. In real lovemaking, there are times where it has it's place.

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I want to say a couple things about male talent, but I want to be as tactful as possible while still being honest. So, any male talent that's reading this, don't get your boxers in a twist. And don't just knock down what I'm saying to uphold the party line. It's not going to hurt your popularity or your masculinity.

The male talent is on the job, too. Just like the female talent. It's WORK. Some days they love their job, other days they don't. That gal you think is so adorable and sweet and hot, he may detest. She may not be his type physically, no matter how attractive you find her. She may not turn him on at all, she might turn him off. He still has to do his job. Oh, and he's not going to tell you that he hated fucking that ugly, skanky bitch when he knows she's one of your favorite hotties.

Men are not all that different from women. When opportunities for sex are many and easily come by, men are harder to arouse, interest, and seduce. Male porn performers have so much mechanical sex that it often takes something extra to get them interested in "real sex". They need to engage their minds, and quite frankly, porn sets aren't generally places where men and women get involved. The best male performers, in my limited experience, were those who took every chance to make a connection with their co-performer and who had a very active and upbeat internal dialogue.

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I do think the industry is terrible at supporting the male talent. There is the problem of the long-term cynicism that these guys must develop. TT Boy is a great example. Here was a guy who fucked hard but had fun when he started. Now he brutalizes girls. Time to get a real job, Troy.

But there are other problems. I've read the stories of guys who couldn't get hard and were frantically trying on their own while the girl they are supposed to fuck is waiting impatiently off screen, having a smoke with her boyfriend and 20 people involved in the shoot are glaring at the guy. Oh yeah, that won't give a guy limp noodle. Good thing I'm not a director. I'd throw the boyfriend off the set and tell the girl "Get in there and get him hard if you wanna get this over with."

Also, I once read of a DP shoot, so 2 guys and 1 girl, took 10 hours to shoot. WHAT THE HELL are they doing over 10 hours? Given how shitty many of these movies look, how poorly shot they are, I suspect there is a lot more incompetence involved than we realize. Something tells me that if porn shoots and cameramen had a clue, they could get a scene done in an hour, while it's still fun for the people involved.

I suspect there's a lot to this situation, and not all of the blame rests on the guys.

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The starting point is this: we don't have to change, or fix, anyone or anything else, in order to create a set of adult videos that would be better than whatever else is out there today. Those other folks can do whatever they want. The only thing it would take, to create genuinely better videos that might seriously catch on and become cross-over videos that would appeal to large markets that are being turned off today, would be a very small team of people, willing to put in nothing but a few hours of their time, in exchange fo co-ownership of something that might end up making alot of money.

Along those lines, various people have made a lot of suggestions about how to make better porn. But none of those ideas seem to ever go anywhere, or lead to any new videos that incorporate those suggestions. Why not? Because nearly all of them are random, uncoordinated suggestions from "the peanut gallery", which never reach critical mass.

I'm not an industry insider, and don't aspire to become one. Instead, I've been happily married more than 20 years, with kids and a truly wonderful wife. Adult videos are, for me, a way to find and use a form of interesting and amusing variety within the limits of monogamy. It's that simple, and I don't want to make it any more complicated than that.

If this board is being read by people like Kimi and Jake, and if there are people out there who truly want to help create some genuinely better adult videos, then what we could do, quite simply, is to work up a few "treatments", and then find someone to film them, and issue them. A "treatment" is simply a narrative, no more than 2-3 pages long, which explains the main characters and the story line. No dialog, no detail, just an outline of an idea. That's what gets presented to people who decide whether to fund it, who don't want to have to wade through a 50-page script.

Okay, so that's the starting point. If any of you folks out there have an idea that you think really merits getting filmed, why not write up a "treatment"? You can do it in an hour or less.

I'm not saying we should post any of those on this website. Instead, I'd like to ask Kimi, or Jake, or anyone else who might want to get involved and who already has some contacts within the industry, whether they might want to get involved, at some level or another, as a coowner of whatever comes out of this.

Again, we don't need to change anyone else, or make them stop or change what they're doing. All we need to do is come up with a couple of better-made videos, and offer them to the marketplace.

Based on the levels of intelligence, insight, and articulation I've been seeing in these posts, I seriously think we could do it. And fairly easily, too.

Okay, I'm going to take my contributions to this subject over to a new thread, and the opening post will say that this thread is required reading, before anyone can understand that new thread.

That doesn't mean this is being shut down; instead, I hope this thread will keep going strong. It has turned into a really great thread.

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I watch that in movies sometimes and go crazy wishing I was that girl. Erik Everhard is awesome at frantic frenzied fierce fucking and usually when I watch him I am wishing it was me.

There is an audience for everything.

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And if Jake won't let you sit on his face, you can sit on mine. But if your BF comes after me, I'll be running like a jackrabbit instead of fucking like one.

Edited by - randomprecision on 2/2/2007 8:45:08 PM

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This whole issue speaks to the larger problem plauging porn today, the showboating, this-scene-is-about-me male talent. The epitome of this: Michael Stefano, John Strong and Eric Everhard. These guys direct their own scenes and cast their buddies exclusively and so every film they make is the same jackhammer, "pound the next whore into submission" crap. That, the spitting and the slapping all serve to center attention on the guy, and all 3 go out of their way to get themselves on camera in every damn frame, most often at the expense of the hot woman I got the title for. You see it in the unbelieveable focus on bbg 3-ways (as opposed to ggb which seemingly died out there for awhile) and the obsession with the dpp and dap, which is little more than "2 guys rubbing their dicks together" as Rog put so accurately puts it. Half the time 2 guys are yelling at each other so loud you can't hear the female talent, whom you barely see anyway, just 2 legs and maybe a hand buried between huge stretches of nasty man ass. Then there's the standing dp, in which the male talent can get truly close, staring into each other eyes over the female talents shoulder--why bother to show her face? Awful. They started out ruining Diabolic, Anabolic, Red Light District and PXP with this garbage but now it spreads everywhere.

I undertstand this strategy is justified by all the guys who jump on here singing the praises of Stefano and Everhard. They've made themselves stars among guys who also focus on them rather than the female talent, who want to see "hate plow" give the next "whore" the treatment, or Stefano do the drooling shit he does. I always make sure to go back and look for old favorites from the 90's on dvd or things from back then I haven't seen, and it's amazing how much more I prefer it to so much of the knucklehead gonzo crap of today. Okay, it's a time before the fully shaved pussy and asshole lightening (truly a wonder of modern science), but guys like Lex Steele, Tom Byron, Sean Michaels, Peter North and Mr Marcus knew how to get the most out of the female talent, and more importantly knew that SHE is the star we're here to see, keeping themselves out of the frame. Oh and lots of 2 girl, 1 guy anals with big facials.

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Kimmi Lixx wrote: "The male talent is on the job, too. Just like the female talent. It's WORK. Some days they love their job. Kimmi forgive me for quoting you out of context.

Would you really want to be fucked by a guy who approaches sex with you as work, and are you saying that what we see in porn would satisfy your needs. Do you regularly employ porno positions. Interviews with the porn stars indicate that they themselves in their private life don't do it as is depicted on screen. So why is porn fucking the norm.
Of course there's an audience for everything. There' s a guy on here who want to see sex with women who have colds. Dosent mean it has to be in every movie. Here's a statement I can make with no resvations
I fuck women better than any male porn stud you ever saw.

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There is so much porn made that you pretty much have to educate yourself if you want to get consistently good stuff. If you just grab whatever has your favorite hottie in it, you're definitely gonna get more than your fair share of duds and stuff that you don't care to see.

But it's important to remember that whatever it is that turns you off )or on, for that matter), there are people for whom it has the opposite effect. If Eric Everhard and the other guys you mentioned didn't have their own fan base, they wouldn't last long in a business like porn. So, somebody obviously likes their work. I like Everhard myself (usually).

Find a director you like and compliment him or her, rather that criticising the ones you hate. If you hate Everhard's stuff but keep getting it anyway, you're just gonna keep getting the same stuff. Right? How can you blame him when he's just making the stuff his fans want to see?

Also, it never used to occur to me but there are female porn fans as well. Man ass might not be as nasty to some of them as it is to us guys and most of them are probably not watching to see the chick.

Also....in a porno, the male talent is just as important as the female talent...maybe more. If you're a director, you can't just pretend the dude isn't there just because a certain portion of your audience is so homophobic they simply can't bear to see a man fucking a woman and just enjoy it for what it is. I understand that a lot of guys want to imagine that they're the dude on the screen. OK, if your imagination is good enough to imagine that Mandingo's dick is yours, you should have no problem imagining that you're whom ever the guy happens to be.

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(PS - Your screen name is cracking me up)

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And a short note to those who keep saying, "there must be a demand for it or it wouldn't keep selling". I don't agree. If you were hungry and the only thing for sale at the grocery stores and restaurants was brussel sprouts, you'd buy brussel sprouts to eat even if you disliked them. Many consumers purchase products they are not happy with because better alternatives are not available.
Most porn being made right now is being made as fast and as cheap as possible. It's become formulaic in order to be produced that way. Time and effort creating the product and time and effort creating better performers are just too expensive for most producers. No matter how much the consumers would like something besides brussel sprouts, if they aren't offered anything else, they're going to choose not to go hungry.

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I also don't think better porn necessarily has to be more expensive. I've seen stuff that was obviously very low budget that turned out to be surprisingly good stuff. The difference always seems to be when the camera guy has a clue what he's doing and the performers actually like what they're doing. I can even forgive not the best lighting or location as long as the performers and the camera guy/director/whatever know how to fuck and shoot it in a way that's visually appealing.

You have a good point also about the differences between sex in someone's personal life and sex on screen. In one's personal life, there usually isn't an audience so the position can be whatever feels good. Sometimes (often) what feels good doesn't look so hot.

I think a lot of this porn fans brought upon themselves, really. The typical man doesn't need much in order to get off. A lot of people shop at Wal-Mart. Wal-MArt is the world's largest retailer (or something) in spite of the spotty quality of their merchandise, customer service and many other things. But they're cheap (relatively) and there seems to be a Wal-Mart within a couple of miles of everywhere, making them the easy choice when you need to go grab a few things.

But anyway.... up until now, how many porn customers were really picky? I've known people who would just walk into the porn section of the video store and grab a few random titles without even looking at the back. If the girl on the front looked good, they grabbed it. So, the money rolls in and the industry doesn't see a problem with cutting corners. It's just porn, after all. Right?

I'm hoping boards like this one can help those in the business who actually are interested in making the best product they can make for the price they can afford improve their products. For quite a few years, there was the basic problem of a lack of any real communication between the business and it's customers. I have noticed that I see more stuff that I want to see now than I did in the early 90s . There's a lot of mediocre stuff out there, sure. And there's a lot of stuff that I really don't care for. But that's me. I've heard of some truly strange sexual fetishes and desires so I figure there's somebody out there who likes even the stuff that I dislike.

Also I don't just dislike brussel sprouts, though. I truly hate them. If I could snap my fingers and cause every solitary one of them to vanish, I would. I'd starve to death before I'd eat them. LOL!

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If you chop them up after they've been steamed and then sauté them with onion, bacon, and caraway seeds, they're really good!

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