Edited by - AlexPanzer on 2/17/2004 7:42:45 AM

[Link]

Calculating legal damages isn't a fiction. It's meant to measure the amount of financial punishment to be meted out to the pirate.

Secondly, if a minor comes into possession of adult material, there are more significant legal issues than just whether they can pay for it.

Scott Kinney
Diversified Video Associates
www.xxx-imports.com

[Link]

Scott Kinney
Diversified Video Associates
www.xxx-imports.com

[Link]

Edited by - Kami on 2/17/2004 8:57:51 AM

[Link]

I purchase my porn, but will use P2P for the odd clip and little tidbits - I have one yummy clip of an unbelievably cute "Brico" girl doing a nipple slip, for example. You can't buy this anywhere, any price. Brico is a plumbing supplier in Europe that uses gorgeous models to sell faucet washers and stuff, I believe? (Nice idea.)

I'm also an example of try and buy: Seeing bits from certain directors on P2P, I go buy their stuff. I'll continue this practice as long as it's available, admitting that it is indeed stealing. The bottom line to the producer is that from me, at least, money is getting spent. And seeing is believing. I've been burned by taking recommendations, reading reviews, only to wind up buying a DVD that's not my cup of java.

I suggest more companies put GOOD trailers and ad clips on the P2P networks. I've been sold by the likes of OralAmber, iDeepThroat.com, etc. I'm a strong believer of "don't waste time trying to stop the inevitable, invest in trying to make money off of it."

[Link]

In addition to what I posted before, about creating legal, private, secure P2P file-sharing networks for paying members -- how, you may ask, would I keep someone who has joined this network, supplied the proper authentication key, coughed up a password to extract a file and opened it -- from making copies and distributing them on the public P2P networks?

Digital rights management technologies such as watermarking and steganography come to mind:

Steganography
Stegoarchive
Analysis of Digital Rights Management Technology

But, *SIGH*, all of it can be broken or subverted if you're willing to try hard enough.

eMusic has an interesting concept: you pay a monthly fee for a set number of downloads which are regular mp3 files you can then make as many copies of as you want. But you can't get the files in the first place without running a proprietary download manager. There's an idea.

And so what if it can all be broken? Most of this stuff is easy enough to implement if you know what you're doing, and it will dissuade the 'casual downloader' if they have to work too hard.

Por ejemplo : I buy previously viewed mainstream DVDs from video stores because by the time I rent one, rip it, encode it, split it or recompress it to fit a single DVD-5, burn it, make a label, print it, buy blanks and jewel cases....it's just not worth all my free time when I could've just gone to the store and coughed up 6.99 for that full-blown copy of Reservoir Dogs. Not to mention I only save a couple of bucks, if that, and time is money as far as I'm concerned.

Of course these downloads are illegal. What can be done about it? Find a 'black hat' network vigilante to DDoS them (consume all their bandwidth), sniff their traffic, run stealth port scans, crack their servers using known exploits exposed by the methods I just mentioned (not to mention the page you linked to runs PHP -- a server-side scripting language that has exploits of its own and may even backend to a database which means SQL-injection attacks and other nice things may be possible), then you leave behind backdoors, root kits, trojans, etc.

There are ways and things and fuck all that, because guess what? They're like that game at Chuck E. Cheese -- for every one you hit on the head another one pops up in its place. My suggestion was to find ways to use the technology to your advantage and increase sales that way. Damn the torpedos, man, full speed ahead. As long as there's people out there with Alex's attitude, and there are A LOT OF THEM, this 'problem' won't just go away.

For people with broadband (DSL, cable modem and soon enough over plain old power lines, if all goes well), downloading a couple of gigabytes only takes a couple of hours. You can't even get a DVD shipped overnight as fast as the whole motherfucker could be downloaded at 100% DVD quality, full resolution, 5.1 Dolby Surround (it ain't like you're encoding that in the first place...) and no one has to be seen going into an adult bookstore or what have you, either.

Here's my business plan, what do you think? Buy a decent digital camcorder, find a cute college girl who needs money, fuck the shit out of her, film it, and sell it on my own domain. Oh, fuck, yeah, married, that's right. Oh, legal issues, oh distribution nightmares, oh whatever...Besides, that's what how many other fucks are doing?? Besides x2, wife wouldn't understand. (Mmmmm....get wife to do it, she gives 1 hex better blowjobs than that Wifey chick and isn't nearly as thick...hmmmm....)

I damn sure wouldn't want to get into this business right now, I tell you that.

Good luck to you all. I mean that.

What with the rising costs of making the product, the rampant stealing of it, the social stigma of being in the business, DAMN -- I've got a lot of respect for those of you brave enough, smart enough, and damn determined enough to stick it out and somehow make a profit.

Now, since I'm in freeform bullshit spouting mode, I'm going to take an unusual tack and say 'cut costs and pass the savings on to the consumer'. Unlike some proponents of porn as filmmaking or art, I don't have to see Monica Sweetheart getting sodomized on film or in widescreen or in surround sound to blow my load, capiche? Is porn art? Is it filmmaking? You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.

If it's costing too much to make (and in turn make a profit on), time to rethink the business model. I'll buy a lot of crappy product for $5 to get a few good scenes, but I get pissed off PDQ at $20-30 per disc and start looking hard at edonkey. (Not really, I despise malware and its writers; don't get me started, I get violent).

And on that note, I humbly bow out and shut the fuck up. Unless I get really bored again. Capitalism definitely has its dark side, don't it?

[Link]

first amazing thing is that some posters (except the producers) here excactly knows how p2p works and where to get the links to it, but try to tell that they buy DVDs only. very amusing

second amazing thing is that some porn-producers (looking to brandon ;o) ) didnt know whats going on with their product since YEARS.

well, i wanted to tell my view of the problem.

on filenexus it werent 1000 dl of the movie, because the movie is splited in 2 cds and each cd got 6xx clicks. but all in all they are maybe 10k dl when you count all sites together where the links appeared.
you maybe think now "10000!!!! omg", but this is a small part only. p2p is not the only way to spread movies. i think the major part is spreaded in systems like FTP/FXP and IRC, where the large groups pump 4-5 movies a day in the network, and their smallest line is a 10 mbit line (while a average p2p user have an upstream of 16-32kb/s to spread the files).

check this site (its only one of them) what is released EVERY DAY. http://www.nforce.nl/index.php?do=listsection&section=17

with speacial search engines you can find out where to look in the irc.
even in newsgroups movies are shared. p2p is a small fish between the sharks

and this happens not since yesterday! it exists since YEARS and after that all we should think, oh my god, the porn industrie must be dead already.
but it isnt, because a illegal donwload isnt equal a lost sale.

i think people who bought porn before that all still buy porn, because they are collectors or want them in best possible quality or whatever.
and the others will never buy porn if p2p exist or not, because some dont have the money, some are minors, some are living in countries where the movie is unavailable and import is forbidden and even if not then the txes are to high, some dl the movie as a preview (like me) and buy it or rent it then.
i think the really lost sales are a very small percentage, but still a loss.

and what about advertising? i personally wouldnt have borrow a sineplex movie (i didnt like the covers) when i didnt dl it one time and have seen that they produce good movies, now i borrowed almost all of them.
so not every loss is a real loss!

what to do? hunt the ripers or groups down? well i am sure you will get one or two, but 5 others wait already to fill the gaps. maybe they retired from ripping already then it was for nothing anyway. you wont get money from them too, because they dont have some.
try to close all sites with the links? ok one down, 2 others pop up. AND you even dont need that site to find the links anyway, you can use the search engine of the p2p client to find it.
to use the site is just faster to find it.

to fight the piracy seems to be logical, but is it really the key? in my point of view its a fight of a large strong bug within ants. the bug (who has the law on his site) maybe kill 2-3 ants (the pirate) but it will lose the main battle for sure.

we can watch such a fight since years already. look at the dumb RIAA. what do they have won? oh yes, they hunted down a 12 year old girl and a grandma who doesnt know what a mp3 is. impressive.
i dont want to know what that all have cost the RIAA.

i think the true key is to start alternatives to the DVDs on stores, and for porn they are way to expensive! (maybe not form the view of a producer)
what do the most people do with a porn movie?? to watch it because the story is really great especially of the gonzos???? NO. we use it to wank of course. but do we wank in every scene of a porn movie?
i guess not
for myself i have maybe 1 or 2 favorite scenes on a DVD (barely the a whole movie rocks) and i use them to wank 4-5 times maybe, then i need a new kickass scene = new DVD.
and for that procedure to pay 25$? OOOOOOUCHH! every week a new DVD = 100$ a month just for wanking. who can afford this? and what about the bucks who was a waste because the movie was shit like hell
ouch ouch, that hurts really.

what alternatives do we wankers have?
p2p, but the quality isnt the same but good enough for a wank

another point is you can go in a rental store, borrow a dvd and make a copy of the favorites scenes and burning it on a blank DVD ---> perfect, no quality loss (who needs the non existing inlays in porn DVDs?)
at least we paid one or 2 bucks for the movie.
and DONT forget. the new standalone DVD player generation is able to play DivX. this way i could have 2 or 3 complete movies on one DVD in perfect quality!

do you see what i want to say? come on wake up! the great sales of DVDs are over before they started. the internet and the pc technologies including DVD burners make selling DVDs not really worth anymore.

instead of wasting your money to hopeless fight all the ants you should use it to invest it in alternatives to a DVD in the store.
e.g. make movies downloadable at a small price 5-10$ in DivX. nobody will download it for 15$ (then i can buy the DVD in store). and you can still sell or DVDs in stores.

i personally would dl tons of porn movies at good quality for the same price i pay in rental stores including the blank DVD i will burn the shit on. would save me the way to rental store and the waiting time if the movie is borrowed already, e.g.

YOU SHOULD THINK ABOUT IT and forget to fight what you CANNOT WIN! the RIAA is the prove that you canot win, dont be that stupid.

just my 2 cents

Edited by - Shorty123 on 2/17/2004 12:09:35 PM

[Link]

It is the service providers of the P2P sharers themselves that need informing.

Or the ISPs that host websites like DeluxePass, but that's a different issue (one that Jules Jordan seems to be pursuing). My point is that P2P systems are not websites, and many movie and music industry people don't seem to realise the significance of that distinction.

[Link]

SNP.

[Link]

the problem is to stop all shares, it make no big difference if 5000 people spread a file or 1000, because the file still spreads.

im germany in august last year a law poped up that p2p links to copyrighted material is illegal. imagine, august last year, very long after p2p started. before it was not clear that it is illegal. believe me there are enough countries which dont have a law agains it yet.

the problem of p2p is that you dont send a whole file on a single peace basis. you send it as "chunks", small parts and that is not the same. if i send you chunk xyz which you cant play then how can you say i would send copyrighted material? it is and is not, and thats the problem. not all countries have laws against it. its not the problem of copyright its the way how it will be sent.

and even if it would be clear YOU CANT inform 1000s ISPs.
the ISP cannot check what is shared to because the clients send such "chunks" and not whole files. so if a ISP would tell me to stop p2p i would just tell them, wtf? i did not share that files, can you prove it?

do you really think 1000s IPSs will fight with their users? if it would be such easy why did nobody start that way? look what probles the RIAA had? the IPSs even dont wanted to give the user adresses. an ISPs will protect it useres as long as possible, why its quite simple ... they user is MONEY

they are even unable to avoid the really illegal shit like child porn etc.

well do it if you think its the right way

Edited by - Shorty123 on 2/17/2004 2:03:43 PM

[Link]

But after looking at that page I'm quite shocked to seeing some of the major studio's movies getting onto the internet before they've even been released. Its appauling!

[Link]

Alex,
I personally don't think you can justify stealing like that. The simple fact that someone is rich or that a product is successful is no justification for stealing it. I agree with you that the heart wrenching appeals not to take food out of the mouths of multi-millionaires, most of whom would trample you or I underfoot if it served their purposes, is hard to take and, as I stated earlier in this post, it maybe allows us to feel better about our actions but it is still stealing and in so being it is still ultimately anti-social.

SNP.

[Link]

But, at the end of the day, the studios are the ones producing the content in the first place. None of the file-sharing systems are any good if there's no content to share. So the ultimate scenario is that the studios decide that all the piracy is destroying their reason for running a business and shut up shop. They go do something else, or go back to VHS. With no content to swap, the file-sharers have cut off their own supply.

It's an extreme situation, I'll grant, but my point is that it can get to the point where businesses will just not bother any more if there's too little revenue coming in.

[Link]

But after looking at that page I'm quite shocked to seeing some of the major studio's movies getting onto the internet before they've even been released. Its appauling!
[/quote]

yes, and what is the conclusion?
who has the ability to get on DVDs before they were released?

hollywood movies are in the most cases available in the internet before they reach the cinema

the thiefs work in the studio itself often or are friends of people who work there

[Link]

I think the deeper and more extreme you get into the world of piracy, starting I suppose at stuff like kazaa and ending up at private ftp rings, the less people are interested in using/watching/playing the stuff and the more it becomes a hobby and eventually, to some, an addiction that takes over there life.

I've just regoogled a site I've not visited for a while but is good for a laugh and worth spending half an hour on just to see how totally totally addicted some of these guys are to their pastime. Have a look at the forum section on www.theisonews.com , their are some real nutcases on here and nearly all of them can't type their name without their caps lock playing up.

SNP.

[Link]

Not a one of you apologists would be happy if I invaded your home and stole something from you, and yet you expect others to just 'get over it.' If you really hold movie makers and record companies in such contempt then stop buying their products. You only make yourselves worse than you claim them to be by stealing from them.

PS - You cannot expect me to believe that you HAVE to own these products. I guarantee the sun will rise tomorrow whether or not you have a copy of LOTR or A Good Source of Iron.

[Link]

DAMN DUDE!! Calm down a minute! They're so wrapped up in getting it, having it, and moving on to the next thing -- I gotta be the first on my block to have this shitty shot from-the-theatre-seat copy of some lameass movie, they don't even enjoy the fruits of their labors. It's really sick and sad.

I don't use IRC, fuck I'd never sleep as I can't stop posting on the one and only forum I've ever joined, but I also don't use and refuse outright to provide technical support to people who install kazaa, gnutella, limewire, emule, edonkey, any of it. Something like 60% of what's out there is malware, trojans, viruses, junk media files, renamed shit; how do I know shorty? Because I have friends who call me to fix their shit, and I laugh in their face and tell 'em "I told your dumb ass, but NO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O....". Fuck 'em. Home or corporate users - get that shit off your computer and we can talk.

It's my job to know what this stuff is, how it works, what it does, and if I can leverage it for my or my clients' uses. It's good for one thing: assing up your computer.

And one other: things like FREENET and WASTE allow anonymous, encrypted, authenticated private filesharing for uses both illicit and political. Same with steganography. It can be used for good or evil. I support law firms; they want their shit encrypted. So if I set them up a private P2P network, am I part of the problem? I don't think so.

All the stuff I've mentioned or linked to has legitimate as well as illegitimate uses. So do guns, so do, oh, you get the point. Freedom, true freedom, means there will be people doing things YOU DON'T LIKE, but you're free to do your own thing, too. Use your powers for good. It's a choice. Choice is a wonderful but frightening thing.

Sounds to me like some in the adult industry would be well served to have some technical help on staff or at least on retainer. It's 2004, this shit ain't new. Adapt or die. This newfangled computer g-haul bullshit ain't going away.

[Link]

if inside or not, it plays no role of course, thief is thief.
i just wanted to say that in some cases you dont need to look to far away to find one. they even sit in the studios itself.

and no i dont expect that studios just "get over it" if there would be a solution of the problem.

i showed two possible ways only.
1. you can get over it and spend your safed money in other ways
2. spend the money the lawyers or whoever you think he could stop piracy, and after a time get over it because you see now that you wont have a chance to win.

yes, of course, maybe position 2. is speculation, but i think not. RIAA showed us how this way work already. if you want to do the same failure like the RIAA or if you think you are more clever than them, feel free to do it.
my advise is, do it not.

maybe i got you wrong, i dont speak english very well.

Edited by - Shorty123 on 2/17/2004 4:09:04 PM

[Link]

There's just too many Cobalt's around with the abilities to get the job done (Although in cobalts case, their isn't the absence of good judgment and uprightness) and too many AlexPanzer's with lack of good morals.

[Link]

Cool pic!!! That eye's really freakin' my shit.

[Link]

BTW, cobalt60's just jealous because he's bottom all the time.

[Link]

I hope Platinum X goes huge, hard work and quality may not be such a lame-ass idea after all.

[Link]

potty mouth!

Edited by - Kami on 2/17/2004 9:15:27 PM

[Link]

Edited by - skronker on 2/17/2004 9:57:11 PM

[Link]

I think that one of the primary reasons that file-sharing has become so prevalent is because people recognize that there is a fundamental difference between tangible property and intangible property, and accord only a limited degree of respect to others' ownership of intangible property.

If you invade someone's home and steal an item of tangible personal property, such as a television set, you deprive the property's owner of the possession, use and all other benefits of owning the property. Pretty much everyone, with the exception of criminals and sociopaths, recognizes that this is a bad thing.

If, on the other hand, you acquire an unauthorized copy of an item of intangible property, such as a copyrighted Brandon Irons movie, you are not depriving Brandon Irons of his ownership interest in the movie, nor restricting or limiting his right to duplicate, distribute and/or license the movie as he sees fit. Brandon can certainly argue that unauthorized duplication of his movie costs him sales, or erodes the value of his ownership interest in the movie, and he's probably right, to at least an extent. Do most people feel the same degree of concern for Brandon's loss as they do for the television owner's loss? Simply put, no. If you substitute the name of a media conglomerate for Brandon's name, the answer becomes a resounding no.

The concept of private ownership of tangible property, and the legal and ethical considerations relating thereto, developed slowly, over the course of centuries. The concept of intellectual property is of comparatively recent origin, and is far less ingrained in the collective consciousness. Technological advances which permit almost effortless duplication of copyrighted works are an even more recent development. Given that the vast bulk of humanity had no reason to even think about this stuff until a few years ago, it's not particularly surprising that ethics and attitudes in this area are in a state of flux.

[Link]

In regards to my comparison, my experience is that people's primary reaction to theft is a feeling of violation. The concern for the material loss is usually secondary. I appreciate and agree with your exploration of the differences in physical and intellectual property but I don't think it is on point, as the owner expresses the same reaction either way.

[Link]

This is what I mean about people not understanding that P2P is not a website.

Personally, I don't think this discussion is BS - it's one of the most interesting and thought-provoking threads I've followed on ADT for a while.

[Link]

That's hardly on topic either way though. Does Brandon feel violated? Absolutely. Is that feeling reasonable? Sure. Does he have a right to be angry? Of course. But what is the anger solving? When somebody does you wrong the American way used to be to kick his ass. Now it's to hire a lawyer. Great, hiring a lawyer turns the violation outward and creates the illusion that you're able to "take up arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing, end them". But is that really the case? Have any intellectual copyright legal victories really lead to stopping piracy? Napster got hosed, in steps Morpheus. Morpheus was destroyed and here comes Kazaa. The RIAA sues 12 year old Kazaa users which will lead to nothing more than Kazaa II which will obfuscate users IP addresses to protect them. All the armies of lawyers have not accomplished anything. The file sharing continues unabated and every tiny victory in an unconsequential battle merely teaches the pirates how to better protect themselves in the overall war.

The fight of the RIAA/MPAA and software companies against piracy reminds me of the US war on drugs. When you throw that much money at a problem over such a period of time only to fall further and further behind, a reasonably intelligent person would start to question the tactics being used. Why hasn't anyone on the RIAA/MPAA had the common sense to look at this and admit "We're losing!" Why would the porn studios attempt to emulate tactics that are proven to fail?

[Link]

In regards to your attempt to assign degrees of violation to different acts of theft, I'm afraid I don't see the merit to your system, but I do see that you have the particulars exactly backwards. The feeling of violation is stronger when you have something stolen from you that you've created (ie, intellectual property).

[Link]

And on another point....

To call it "file sharing" is a misnomer. In the tangible world as you'd describe, 'sharing' indicates a temporary change in ownership or possession. In the digital world, 'sharing' really means duplication and distribution.
Instead of two people sharing one thing, two people now each have their own.

Similarly no 'swapping' takes place, as files are not exchanged, they are copied. So, a wholesale disregard for copyrights is clothed in fuzzy, friendly terms like 'swapping' and 'sharing'.

Finally, and this is just a suggestion, go after the uploaders, not the downloaders.

Recently, (or relatively recently) an advertising agency employee uploaded an advance screener of "The Hulk" to a P2P network. Investigations tracked it back to him, he was arrested, tried and convicted. He's serving (I think) 3 years of house arrest.

Scott Kinney
Diversified Video Associates
www.xxx-imports.com

[Link]

A couple of days ago the RIAA filed charges against another 500 or so file sharers. At this exact moment there are 3,669,081 users on Kazaa sharing 570,067,846 files. That doesn't count the millions more using other services like Limewire or Bearshare. It doesn't count the millions more using IRC and the millions more anonymously downloading from usenet. Didn't seem to scare anyone, did it? That is the whole freaking point. Fire sharing might be wrong, it might be bad, it might be criminal and it might be destroying the very fabric of society. But the industry is spending billions to fight it and they're losing. It's been said that the true definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing the same way while expecting different results. On that score, the anti-piracy groups are quite clearly insane because they keep throwing more money at this only to fall further and further behind. Why is anyone trying to adopt their methods? They're losing.

[Link]

The sad fact of prosecuting copyright infringement *is* that it's a slow, laborious, infringer-by-infringer slog.
That's just the way it is.

I don't think you can accuse the RIAA of 'doing the
same thing over and over again hoping for a different
result'. They've changed their tactics and strategies over time, and they pay attention to the results they get.

Ranting that they haven't come up with solution that addresses all infringers everywhere at once doesn't stack up very well on your sanity scale, either.

In another forum, I posted some of the other approaches that the RIAA is considering. Perhaps you'd find them more in keeping with the ethos and power of P2P networking. As I recall, they included:

*Virus-laden files with attractive names: some of the
virus payloads attached "I steal music" to Outlook sig files, some reported IP addresses, some were designed to delete all mp3 files found on the computer's hard drive.

*Honeypot-nodes: Looking like they have 'good stuff', in fact have junk files.

*Black hole programs: automated requestors that overload selected nodes and their peers until they fail under the load.

There were others, but I can't recall them offhand.

Scott Kinney
Diversified Video Associates
www.xxx-imports.com

[Link]

Hey, I got nothing by being articulate, calm, rational and well-spoken. Frenzied geekspeak at least elicited a response!

I know you know exactly what I was talking about; good, all I wanted was to make sure someone did. Thanks.

I'm sure smarter and savvier people than I, who are actually affected by this content stealing, have considered what I'm saying and indeed may have their own freaks and geeks working on similar, and other, solutions.

I like to think so, but some days I wonder if they're all off at DRAGONCon or posting at slashdot or what the fuck. I hate stereotypes. This guy kept coming on to my wife at her office, so she showed him a pic of her geeky husband and he said "OMG, he looks like a lumberjack, I thought you said he was a computer guy?" Fucker. Should I mash his face with me hob-nailed boot?

OK, all done. You're in good hands. (and just for the two cent toss: of course it's stealing, duh.)

[Link]

Scott Kinney
Diversified Video Associates
www.xxx-imports.com

[Link]