If sometimes yes and sometimes no -- how, what, when, where, and why?
I think this topic is worthy of a thoughtful, civilized, and mutually respectful discussion. Personal attacks, argumentativeness, intolerance, and statements unsupported by lived experience and reasoning will not be constructive in fostering a genuine conversation.
Why say no, when it feels so good to say yes. 117 Posts 10/06
Posted - Oct 14 2006 : 4:19PM
I am all for roleplaying. Personally I think roleplaying is greater than circus sex. Meaning I'd rather see a girl tied up saying things like "are you sure you want to do this." And during the sex he finds out she's a vampire. That would be exciting.
Versus seeing a girl getting chokefucked with smeared makeup, I'd take the sensual roleplay anyday.
I don't consider dom stuff degrading. I personally haven't really seen it done well though. But that's because I don't really hang out in that genre too much and nobody every recommends anything.
Also I don't like all the tickling and slapping and whipping or whatever if there isn't any sex. That's a let down for me and is kind of what I expect with a dom film. Just a long tease sequence and no sex.
But to answer your question, I don't see anything wrong with any type of roleplaying.
I'm going to give a short answer first, and perhaps chime in on the discussion as it evolves...
No, as long as it's consensual.
If you believe what several directors say - and they've posted it right here on ADT - a lot of new girls coming into the industry actually prefer rougher sex and being submissive. I can think if a few girls off the top of my head that fit this category. As long as the girls are actually ASKING to be in scenes that require submission, and the director and other actors involved deliver the dominance in a way that doesn't unnecessarily push the limits of the submissive, then in my opinion, it's not degrading. On the contrary, it is often EXTREMELY hot,
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nietzsche Deactivated User
5470 Posts 8/03
Posted - Oct 14 2006 : 4:29PM
Can anybody recommend some D/s stuff where the women are s.
I love watching men dominate women with their big cocks, their feet and by forcing them to lick their assholes. It really makes me feel good to watch some bitch get slapped and choked, spit on etc. while simotaneously being ass fucked and stepped on by a man with big feet.
Still wanking after all these years. 8082 Posts 10/00
Posted - Oct 14 2006 : 5:56PM
Why is it assumed the women are the submissive?
Is dom/sub-themed porn where men are submissive degrading to men?
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Midtown Deactivated User
299 Posts 7/05
Posted - Oct 14 2006 : 6:39PM
Of course it's degrading to women. And, the fact that it's consensual is irrelevant. A lot of people have jobs they hate or even find degrading. However, they do those jobs because they need to earn a living.
What about women who like to get roughfucked & be submissive in their personal lives? You can't say it's to earn a living.
When I was a teenager, a teacher told me that giving blowjobs was degrading. I replied by saying that I couldn't think of a position of more power over a man than when his cock was between my teeth.
"Degrading" is subjective. And men tend to forget that women are equally allowed to experiment and experience and pursue their fantasies just like men. Just because my fantasies and desires might not be the same as your mom's, doesn't mean the behavior is degrading to women.
midtown's sweeping generalisation is actually pretty close to the truth. it most certainly is degrading. essentially. and mainly for the reason that this is a huge part of d/s . duh.
aside from that, i don't see how consensual d/s is "degrading" in a larger sense. is it detrimental to feminism? doubtful. it's fucking porn . i don't think fuck films (spec. bdsm) speak volumes out society's attitudes towards women in general. they're made by a minority, and therefore reflect a minority opinion.
i'm done for now, but i'd like to point out there is a world of different between home d/s and pornographic d/s. that's kind of pertinent to this discussion.
I see what you're driving at, but it's still relavant. If a woman is being abused and she tolerates it because she's desperate for the money, you have a point. If she likes being slapped around and spit on, then that's on her.
Much of what's wrong with porn is that it's made by and made for men who hate women. I don't hate women, so I ignore the Max Hardcore wanna-be types.
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Midtown Deactivated User
299 Posts 7/05
Posted - Oct 15 2006 : 12:45AM
Bingo, my man! I've been saying this for a while now. Until porn rids itself of this element, it deserves all the heightened government scrutiny it gets. As for the proponents of such videos, my position is that they all need therapy.
Do you honestly believe porn actresses won't say "NO" to scenes they don't want to do? There's enough variety in porn that I don't think any woman in the industry necessarily has to do rough sex. In fact, there's always softcore where there's no real sex at all. A woman who has a decent body and face can do basically anything she wants...both in the porn industry and in the world outside of porn.
Besides that, porn always was "dom/sub-themed" to some degree. The women were always described as "whores" and "sluts" on box covers.
Porn is a reflection of society...not the other way around. Traditionally, the woman's role in sex has been submissive. In all actuality, in RL, women have MORE control over men than men have over them. It's been that way for some time. People pay for this porn to see women in roles they don't generally get to see them in or experience for themselves.
It's true. Most men will never get to "throat fuck" their girlfriend and many won't ever get to sexually dominate a woman in any way, shape or form. The women who actually enjoy this are relatively rare but they do exist and I suspect many of them end up doing porn.
It is NOT irrelevant that it's consensual.
Is it degrading to females as a whole? I don't know. But if it is, then pretty much all porn would fit neatly into that category. Don't you think?
Porn shows situations and sex acts that are quite unusual in RL. I, for one, have never bumped into a hottie in some mundane setting and ended up with my dick in her ass 5 minutes later. PORN IS FANTASY!
Life really is too short to spend most of it worrying about whether or not the whole of femininity feels degraded by the fact that these movies are made (and made by people who actually enjoy what they're doing).
absynth makes the heart grow fonder 434 Posts 8/06
Posted - Oct 15 2006 : 12:57AM
At risk of going all armchair shrink...
Some of the shit out there is certainly degrading towards women and I'm sure there are plenty of women who dislike the rougher stuff, but still are "willing" to do it if the money is right. Ladies who fall under this category most likely have a past history of physical, sexual and/or emotional abuse. It's sad, but I'm sure the industry has its share of them. I know during my time in the military I discovered that we were all one great big disfunctional family and most of us joined to escape our pasts. The young ladies, in particular, had extra tough home lives.
To some extent, I believe quite a few people who get off on filming, acting out, or watching such scenes (both men and women) also have some deep seeded issues (misogyny, masochism, etc) rooted somewhere in their pasts. Isn't the basis of the dom/sub relationship driven by the psychological need to punish or be punished?
I'm also of the school of thought that fetishes are both nature and nurture.......
Anyway...
It's never fair to generalize....
I have moods when I like to see the extreme circus sex and darker shit, but I'm also not so desensititized that I don't bat an eye at some of the stuff people are putting on film today and calling porn.
At any rate, as long as all parties involved are cool with what they are doing, it's fine by me. If I can see that they are having fun and getting off in the process of their sexual exploration, I am inclined to do the same.
Yes. And what really bothers me is that the people who are complaining about it seem to think there's something wrong with people exploring their darker sexual fantasies in a safe way where all parties consent and (hopefully) nobody gets hurt. Everybody comes out happy and satisfied except for the people who (for some reason) rented or bought stuff they knew they wouldn't like, watched it and then got upset about it.
I won't deny that I may have some "issues". That would be completely disingenuous. Everybody has issues. Everyone. I've never met anyone whom I would describe as being perfectly (psychologically) healthy. It's simply a matter of figuring out what their particular "issues" are.
At any rate, these "issues" don't come out of nowhere. They (usually) exist for a reason. Women aren't the only ones who can be emotionally or psychologically abused. Men have feelings too and women can be absolutely brutal. Sometimes, they don't mean to be but often, they seem to really enjoy it.
It's the sadistic side of women that many people are failing to see when they describe women as victims even when they are verbally asking for and visibly enjoying being dominated and/or abused/humiliated.
I "assumed" male-dom/female-sub in starting this thread only because that's the sexual configuration that's generally the subject of controversy. But I don't personally assume that women are always the submissive ones in "real life". Of course, fem-dom-male and fem-dom-fem porn is available too, though not as much as male-dom-fem stuff.An excellent question -- and certainly open for discussion.
When it comes to the subject of "degrading to women", my first thought has to do with the feminist movement. My deep thought is that the degradation that takes place, has remained in place, is resurrected, is changed, etc., is ultimately due to the fact that women possess something that is most powerful, something that men can't possess. If not forced, no woman should feel degraded.
absynth makes the heart grow fonder 434 Posts 8/06
Posted - Oct 15 2006 : 12:51PM
Misogyny is like racism in that a person doesn't just wake up one day and proclaim to be either. It's a long painful process that takes a person from point A to point B and both feelings usually are first developed and nurtured in the home and later reinforced by life experience (like you said, women can be cruel.) Most men who harbor misogynistic tendencies either have unhealthy relationships with their own mothers or were witnesses to abuse of their mothers by a father/step-father/mom's boyfriend, etc.
The core of a misogynists hatred for women is seeped in feelings of their own inadequacy. Constant reminders by way of both physical and verbal beatings and even a feeling of being powerless in regards to being able to stop the actions of the abuser lead to this inadequate feeling.
As for all of us having "issues", more true words were never spoken, friend. I was the product of a very abusive environment. I could have at any point taken a "darker" turn in life, but I always had my mother to lean on. I am one of the lucky ones.
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Midtown Deactivated User
299 Posts 7/05
Posted - Oct 15 2006 : 1:02PM
Absynth deserves praise for his willingness to be open and honest on this subject.
This is a ll true, but you must also consider the frat boys (like I was).
"Ya dude, I stuck it right up her ass. She ever let you do that? No, then I'm the man."
"I blasted it all over her face, she never saw it comin'"
Party, Whoooaaa!
Some guys are just assholes without having any trauma or abuse. Some will grow out of it and build serious longterm relationships. Some won't. Sportfucking will build feelings of objectification, and lower regard for women.
To respond to some posters in this thread, I don't think the erotic pull of BDSM is necessarily or even typically based in misogyny (although, of course, it can be). The appeal of domination (e.g., powerfulness, control, responsibility, the ability to "do" and "do to") is pretty basic to human nature; likewise, the appeal of submission (e.g., wanting to be wanted and taken care of, to be the object of attention, to surrender control, to be "done to" and "acted upon").
BDSM can be passionate in the most basic, animalistic sense. It can also be imaginative, theatrical, dramatic, exciting -- a departure and respite from the sometimes dull routine of everyday life.
There's no question that difficult and even dark feelings are involved in this style of sexuality, but it's not as if those feelings don't exist in people anyway. As RandomPrecision noted, BDSM sex-play done responsibly and consensually can be a wonderful way to explore those feelings safely.
Does my attraction toward male-dom-fem sex and porn unsettle me? Sure. It's hard to know, for instance, why the image of a woman wearing a dog collar, trussed up in armbinders, with a ball gag in her mouth and clamps on her nipples makes my cock so hard. It just does.
But I'm not a woman-hater by a long-shot, either in my emotional response to the porn I watch or in my personal life. If a woman in a dom/sub scene isn't clearly enjoying herself, if she's upset or crying, my wood will droop instantly; I'll stop watching and throw out (or return) the DVD.
I'm an equal opportunity perv. Although fem-dom-male porn isn't much of a turn-on for me (maybe because the guy is the focus of attention in those scenes whereas my "sexual gaze" is directed toward girls), I'm attracted to sexual submission in my own sex life almost as much as to sexual domination -- in both cases as a game or as play, not as something that exists outside the bedroom. I think it has something to do with a strong desire for sexual intensity.
a lot of the 'guilt' that comes with watching this kind of thing has to do with the fact that the western world is fundamentally patriarchal, and has been for centuries, and that power structure is dangerous. most people know this, either consciously or unconsciously. we want to acknowledge the anima but the animus refuses to be vulnerable. its reaction is to lash out at the anima, so, when we see men abusing women, those of us who are in touch with our feminine sides feel that guilt, which is much larger than simply being confined to the bedroom.
*rough psych lesson 101*
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Midtown Deactivated User
299 Posts 7/05
Posted - Oct 15 2006 : 10:23PM
Some of this crap is truly appalling. I saw some trailer - I don't even know what the movie was, I was so horrified by the images. This guy hit this woman across the face so hard, her whole head was thrown to one side. There is no way in the world that anyone is going to convince me that this kind of behavior is acceptable. This whole "consenting adults" argument doesn't hold much water either. A person could consent to their homicide in order to have their family receive a life insurance benefit. But, that wouldn't make the act any more legal.
Good & Evil is merely a matter of perspective, I perfer to call myself... Determined 1229 Posts 7/05
Posted - Oct 15 2006 : 10:39PM
Sexandsubmission.com is an excellent site. This is the only site I've seen where they have sex with the girl while she's tied up. There's also slapping, paddling, flogging, clamps & hot candle wax.
All the scenes have pre & post-interviews. The pre-interview talks are about what the women would like to try, what their willing to try & what they don't want to do. The post-interview reflects on what they liked, and didn't like, about the scene.
It also features mostly pornstars, rather than amateurs. Some of which have made repeat appearances, which are some of my faves 'cus these women really appear to enjoy it! I was truly amazed at what some of these women like!
Back to the topic...
I love women. I have an insatiable curiosity and have learned to love just about everything a woman does in porn that she appears to enjoy. However, I won't be purchasing a copy of "Donkey-Punch" anytime soon.
I'm not a hater. To me, the only "haters" are the ones who continually make negative posts trying to enforce their opinion on everyone else.
I was commenting on the larger use of sexually abusive tactics in porn, not dom/sub specifically.
I agree with you that dominance can be a beauiful thing. As a dominant myself I have found a great many women who enjoy being submissive, without needing to be paid for it.
However, as I stressed, there is a difference between a a woman who enjoys serving who gives her all, and some pig who takes advantage of young girls in a financial crunch so he can abuse them. They are not one and the same.
Dominance does not include malice. Those who engage in malicious acts for self gratuitous or financial ends are indeed haters.
Remove the words "To women" from the title, as they are irrelevant. The answer is: Yes, BDSM is degrading, by definition. Corrolary: Us Subs like it just _fine_ that way, thankyewverymuch. :-)
YET. Someday, bio-tech will advance to the point where sex change operations are reversable out-patient procedures, and our grandchildren will wonder what all the fuss was about. At the same time, _they_ will be morally outraged at the new porn theme of genetically uplifted animals screwing artificially intelligent toasters.Some of us _like_ being subject to that sort of rough play. Who are you to say that's unacceptable?For the sake of argument, could you name some "matriarchal" cultures? Socieites that practice Matrilineal descent _don't_count_ if the society's leaders are still male. And the Trobriand Islander "research" has been thoroughly discredited over the years, if National Geographic is to be believed.
no, i can't name any. i don't retain that kind of information. but it's quite clear that the symbolism of christianity is a complete subversion of the previous feminine power. and places like america are essentially christian.
*i apologise if i'm speaking in generalities and am not backing myself up with facts, i just forget them at the moment.
