Hmmm. I will say that just about every country has it's fair share of no sex having, tight-assed morons who ought to be lined up naked in town square and have rotten food and garbage thrown at them by random passers by (Hey, they like the medieval shit, give it to them). My point was - How many countries stand up and bellow every day about how free they are? Of those, how many outlaw sex? Don't call it prostitution. Just call it sex because that's what it is. Prostitution is just a word made up by people who were running and hiding from the fact that they were outlawing plain old ordinary sex. You call it something else, you can pretend it isn't the same thing. You can pretend the government isn't in people's bedrooms. Edited by - randomprecision on 8/16/2007 8:30:53 PM
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conquistador Deactivated User
Hellhamster. 2947 Posts 10/03
Posted - Aug 16 2007 : 8:35PM
@Everett: I *was* backing up your point. The muddy definitions are a huge problem. I don't think I misunderstood you. I wasn't attempting an argument just a tangential point which could support either direction. The argument has been made, you know. That sex players on camera and sex players off camera are different. By players I mean in the theater sense of performers. Because the idea was having a sexual relationship versus portraying a sexual relationship for the camera. One is tittilation for the sake of others as pornography. And one is prostitution. Just calling it like I see it. Edited by - conquistador on 8/16/2007 8:37:43 PM
Ok. But i still don't understand why prostitution is banned in some countries where porn is legal. How can somebody be for hardcore porn and against prostitution?
Practical and humanist aspects mostly. Prostitution is linked to human trafficking and slavery, which is deplorable in every sense, and is used as a justification to outlaw it. Take Sweden for example; it's always been a very socially liberal country, usually at the forefront in that aspect, but they have a strong ban on prostitution. I'd partly attribute it to human trafficking, and partly to the feminist "agenda" of portraying prostitution as predatory behaviour by men towards women. Radical feminists tend to portray male sexuality as predatory by nature and seek to oppress it.
Well, you know. It's not our fault they only like sex on very narrowly defined terms. It turns out that the only way some men can reliably get laid on a regular basis is to pay for it. Now I don't know what people (even feminists) have against men having sex but my theory is that it upsets women because they have less power and control if men don't have to beg for sex all the time. There hasn't been a time in the last 50 years when women (In the US at least) couldn't have men falling at their feet for sex. They may not have always been able to do everything a man could do but they had the pussy and they always knew it.
thank you conquistador. I think we're more on the same sheet of music than not. I was reiterating my feelings on this topic and being consistent with what I basically said in other threads about 'is-porn-prostitution'. Since a lot of the conversation is repetitious, I think I may 'try' to stay away form threads on this topic in the future. But the urge to participate when a new one comes up is irresistable!
If porn is prostitution then are we John's for paying for it and need to be arrested. I believe in free speech but this topic has been talked to death. It reminds me of a boss I had when looked at some men's magazines brought by a fellow coworker in the warehouse and after the fifth magazine said "What kind of women would pose for pictures like this" I then said "What kind of men would look at pictures like this." Is it guilt that make some men ask questions like this. Do some men look to be punished. Wayne In Dallas
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Aug 17 2007 : 3:45PM
Just to set the record straight MM was not stoned to death. I think that you have her confused with the story of Jesus and his peeps coming upon a woman who was about to be stoned to death, which he stopped by asking for those in the crowd who were without sin to cast the 1st stone.
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Aug 17 2007 : 3:54PM
Just to stir the pot (I've grown tired of Kurt Lockwood). What is it called if a male is hired to have sex with himself?
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Dither Persona non grata
I love America 650 Posts 8/05
Posted - Aug 17 2007 : 4:27PM
I think the scope of male sexual traits goes beyond sex per se. Feminists have established a normative ethical guideline, where all "typically male" traits are regarded primitive, neanderthal, predatory or oppressive. It's very visible in contemporary culture; the typical expressions of male values, be it a football pub or howling at women in short skirts, being portrayed as almost monkey-like behaviour. "Typically female" traits are on the other hand regarded favourably; as warm, caring and by comparison complex. This impacts on purely sexual views. I tell you, if I only had a dime for every time I read a feminist column in the newspaper describing the female sexuality and its exceedingly complex spectrum of emotional needs and desires. There was a campaign for women's right to orgasm for crying out loud, with parades and the whole shebang. And those very same women are the strongest force in pursing the ban on prostitution. For unlike the extremely complex female sexuality, the male sexuality is the primitive one, no emotions attached. Why exploit prostitutes, why even watch porn some say, when you can just blow a load at will and be done with it? Women's sexuality is a complex emotional and physical composition, it's needed, it's a right that society must nurture. Men's sexuality is just to blow one off. It's redundant, it's deplorable, it's primitive, good riddance. That's how it seems some feminists view it. Not that there isn't a grain of truth to it, but it's a generalization of huge proportions. I also think the male will find his emotional life poorer if he can't get any, no matter how much he jacks off. And I think women can also be driven by "primitive" lust alone, without the "ten volume encyclopedia"-type complexity to it. That's why I've developed a distaste for feminists.
a prostitute is someone who is paid to have sex; porn stars, male and female, are prostitutes. a john is someone receiving the sexual favors of a prostitute. porn viewing wouldn't count--watching sex is not the same thing as having it! but i agree with random precision that the legal and moral distinctions between porn and...non-exhibitional prostitution are meaningless, and that prostitution should be legal.
The Elusive Southern California Spearmint Rhino 88 Posts 6/07
Posted - Aug 17 2007 : 7:47PM
"Not that there isn't a grain of truth to it, but it's a generalization of huge proportions. I also think the male will find his emotional life poorer if he can't get any, no matter how much he jacks off. And I think women can also be driven by "primitive" lust alone, without the "ten volume encyclopedia"-type complexity to it. That's why I've developed a distaste for feminists." Hello. While I agree with your comment concerning the possibility of a woman being sexually driven by pure lust only, I also question the way you generalize feminists. First: Which feminists are talking about? Do you mean ALL feminists, or do you mean Andrea Dworkin? If you mean all feminists I would encourage you to read Susie Bright's material or the written work of Dr. Carol Queen. Also, a big debate has gone on in the feminist community for years regarding pornography. Take a look at the recent edition of 'Spread' magazine, a zine for and about those in the Sexwork industry, in the letters to the editor feature. There you will find a letter written by a professor of Women's Studies at the University of Minnesota, which is relevant to this very topic. I consider myself a feminist and I watch a LOT of porn. I watch Lesbian, Heterosexual, Gay Male, BDSM, Leather, and Bi porn. I have yet to watch transgendered porn. I have some views on male sexuality, and in specific the portrayal, or lack of portrayal of the PENIS in society. I also know that men can be sexual crime victims as well as women. Lastly, up here in the Bay Area we, at least those of us who consider these kinds of things, consider prostitutes and strippers Sexworkers. And those Sexworkers are at this time attempting to organize themselves to fight for health care and other benefits offered by employers to employees in most occupations. Now, I think we as a society can continue to degrade those who fill Sexwork positions, or we can pay our money to them for their services, and appreciate that there is someone who will perform those services. Just like we appreciate that there are those who will have sex on video for our enjoyment.-Both men and women.
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Dither Persona non grata
I love America 650 Posts 8/05
Posted - Aug 17 2007 : 8:13PM
My experience with feminists is limited to local/national level activism and media exposure, in addition to the general social trends I subjectively notice in society. I haven't read any feminist literature and it's not a high priority on my list of things to read.That's exactly the approach I'd prefer, by a mile, to the banning and sweeping under the rug tactics seen here. They claim the intention is to combat human trafficking from eastern Europe, but that's a red herring. It's equally, or more, a matter of political gender power-shift. To grab what is seen as male-dominated decision making literally by the balls. Edited by - Dither on 8/17/2007 8:14:30 PM
In Europe, a lot of prostitutes are illegal immigrants. That's why they are vulnerable to exploitation. I think the state should give green cards to prostitutes.
The Elusive Southern California Spearmint Rhino 88 Posts 6/07
Posted - Aug 17 2007 : 11:02PM
"To grab what is seen as male-dominated decision making literally by the balls." I am not sure I understand that line, but if when you refer to politics you mean at the federal level (e.g. Hillary Clinton et al (whoever et al is...)), then you should know that I have read some posts about the federal agenda on feminist-porn-positive sites. In specific, I read a post referring to Sen. Clinton and some of her feminist political ties. This post was made by a woman and she was alerting other porn-positive feminists that Clinton may, in her political decisions, reflect the attitudes of some of her anti-porn constituency. On a side note: Lately I have seen some amazing porn featuring men, which speaks to a huge change in male sexuality that I believe is upon our society.
A few weeks back I was looking for something online and unwittingly stumbled across a site that gives instructions on how to start an obscenity lawsuit where you live. (If you must know, it's www.obscenitycrimes.org. Pretty funny reading actually - says porn should be banned because two guys looked at porn and became rapists. Should we ban cars because some people drink and drive too?) Anyway, there's a page on there where you can look up the laws regarding sex from all the states that have them. I was more than a little surprised to find that my state still has laws on the books making it a felony to have sex with anyone you're not married to. My wife and I are both felons, I guess! Back to the original point, I believe a "porn is prostitution" case that went to court was defeated because the court decided that prostitution is when a person pays someone else to give them sexual pleasure, whereas porn performers are merely actors who are supposed to engage in sexual acts in front of a camera or an audience - they're not in it for pleasure. 'Nuff said.
Actually, the logic is even dumber than that. It would suggest that we should ban cars because people look at them and become drunk drivers. Or that steak knives should be banned because people who have them are tempted to use them to stab people. Or that "Murder She Wrote" should be banned because someone might watch it and decide to kill someone. All of these things are so, actually. A person might be inspired to commit a terrible crime by seeing a picture of Snoopy. But that's inside their own twisted mind, isn't it? Edited by - randomprecision on 8/19/2007 2:14:40 AM
Is Brown Bunny Chloe Sevigny's BJ scene porn? is a BJ,is that prostitution? i wondering Besos...... Rosario Stone Edited by - Rosario Stone on 8/19/2007 11:49:45 PM
As a performer, I can say that it could be considered glorified prostitution... the agent plays pimp.. I play whore.. However... We aren't paid under the table. I just paid a shit load to uncle sam in taxes. It doesn't matter who hands us money.. if it's the studio or pov director because we still fill out that w-2 form.. Which of course makes it legal.. and the goverment is willing to consider legalizing things that make them more money... for instance sex. Sex will always sell.. and they can tax us.. and they do tax us.. plus the studio.. plus distributors.. plus the buyer. This doesn't just apply to sex, but most contreversial things in society (alcohol)..(pot in cali) ect. So maybe this is considered prostitution.. but I sleep easy at night and wake up with no shame for the simple fact that I get taxed and std tests. I get taxed for fucking... so fucking has a downfall? hummmm.. but the same could be said about being a doctor right?
BJ in Brown Bunny at least pretended to be an artistic depiction of...well blowjob. That's what pornography used to do for a long time. Now when it has became little more then recorded sexual intercourse made to serve as a wanking material I think it could be said that porn is a form of prostitution.
But the urge to participate when a new one comes up is irresistable!
