Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - May 19 2009 : 4:16PM
The sex in and of itself isn't really the issue as much as the abuse of power is. We all know that aphrodisiac thing, that becomes toxic in the presence of a narcissist. The guy was in a position of a mentor, of power, the teenage girls, may have just been looking for daddy, in all the wrong places, but he was responsible to protect them. He was in violation of the trust placed in him by the community. His untrustworthiness, in this case, is grounds enough to decide not to hire him. That being said, was he or his behavior that of a sex crazed sexual predator? Is he beyond redemption? To both questions I think not. He just never should be in a position of power, especially when young female students are involved.
I didn't say that your opinions annoyed me (although our disagreement on this topic is pronounced). What annoyed me was the "hate list" bit. To me, it seemed grossly out of proportion to anything I had previously posted in this thread. But whatever. If you feel that I'm a hater, so be it.Thanks for keeping your violent fantasies to yourself.
Thanks for your reasonable answer. Sorry if I was overheated in my earlier post. In fact, I was at university when I was seventeen, ( and she was not on the staff.) Where I live, she didn't break any laws. These numbers are completely arbitrary, and vary from one country to another. In Australia last week, a prominent TV sports commentator was sacked from his job for having consensual sex with an adult woman seven years ago. It has made me more than usually angry about the whole "sex is evil abuse" fad in society at the moment, hence the short fuse. Now, regarding schoolteachers: In a caring and sensible society, schools would give practical training in sexual skills and techniques from puberty onwards. The subject might be called "Human Sensuality" perhaps. It would be a specialized area of the teaching profession, just as math and science are. It would be required by law to be part of the curriculum in all secondary schools. I imagine that will give you an idea of how far apart our ideals are. If our democratic culture survives that long, I'm guessing this might happen in a hundred years or so. I don't think you and I will be around to hear about it.
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - May 20 2009 : 7:50AM
Licker; Sex education is important, but not relevant here. In situations like this it's not really about the sex, as it is about power and exploitation.
Licker: I don't think I have a witchburning attitude. I'm a reasonable adult, and fairly liberal at that. You seem to think that the only reason teenage girls pursue sexual relationships is for physical gratification. Most often, that's not their sole motivation. Female sexuality is complex, and sexual aggression in young girls often stems from insecurity. It's an ego boost to have a man express sexual interest in her, to validate her in that way. If he finds her sexually attractive, he must view her as a woman, not a child, right? He must view her as an equal, worthy of his attention. And if he's desired by other girls in her peer group, she feels particularly special if she's singled out by him. Many women, and most girls, look for meaning in everything a man does and says. And even if he's clear about his attentions ("I think you're hot. This is just physical for me. I'll never leave my wife.") she's still going to think it means more. Not necessarily love, but at least fondness. There may be the scattered few that pursue male authority figures for purely physical reasons, but how can you separate them from the rest? Girls will say what they think you want to hear. That's their nature at that age. I was like that. I had a crush on my high school's vice principal, as did every other girl in our school. I'm sure I'm not the only one that wasn't sorry when I was sent to his office for some infraction. Hell, lots of girls broke rules purposely just to get sent there. He was a handsome man, and I wonder if he noticed the disproportionate number of female discipline problems he encountered in contrast to his fellow administrators. I remember how shocked we were when our guidance counselor was fired for having an affair with one of our classmates, because he was a creepy old coot. In that vicious teen way, we wondered why she picked him, and not the hot vice principal. That's another element of female sexuality, particularly in a school setting. Teenage girls are vicious, spiteful creatures. The fallout and ridicule they'll experience from their peers, even friends, is ten times worse than a simple broken heart when the fling ends. My point is, sex between adults and teenagers is complicated and risky, even if it's consensual. The laws exist because nobody can determine the maturity of any individual girl or boy, and I think the adult that finds that girl or boy sexually attractive is by far the least qualified to make that determination.
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eyeballs a bleeding Deactivated Again
181 Posts 9/07
Posted - May 20 2009 : 2:50PM
Blah, blah, blah. Dump the guy, don't dump the guy. Who cares? Hell, I'd dump the guy just for being stupid and chasing after 14 year olds girls.
Agreed. I was responding to the general tone of some replies in the thread, and not to you personally. The points you make are good ones, given the present condition of society. Anyone who has difficulty imagining that we evolved from apes needs only to spend a few days in a high school to see plenty of evidence.
What's difficult for men is that our hormones are always raging and on alert, and many of our first sexual experiences happen in our teens, so those thoughts, images and innocently good times stay with us as we mature. If I found 16-year-old girls beautiful and sexy back then when I was 16, why can't I still find them beautiful and sexy and be attracted to them when I'm 30? Just because society has decided to stamp that kind of behavior or thought as deviant doesn't make me a sicko - it makes me human. It's a proven genetic fact that younger women have a much better chance of producing a stronger, healthier baby than an older woman. Also, the younger woman's pregnancy is likely to have reduced complications because her body is fresh, strong and able to tolerate everything better than an older woman. I also believe that older men have genetically superior and "better programmed" sperm than boys. Looking at animals, the older male of most species usually services a lot females, and will go for the younger, healthier ones - the ones who have a greater chance of producing a strong offspring for him. That's nature... Anyway, I feel it's a very natural thing for men of all ages to want to procreate with younger women. Generalizingly speaking, they have tighter, shaplier bodies, soft, glistening hair, are bouncy, energetic and full of life, their breasts are perkier, their skin smoother and unblemished, and they're very playful and not as demanding or as judgmental as older women. Understand, I'm not condoning having sex with minors, as that's illegal, but today's "kids" are far more imformed and emotionally mature than I was at 13-17, mainly because of the internet and our breaking down of some barriers on television - most know what they're doing. And isn't it quite hypocritical that we create all these porn movies with women who look very young (almost teen-like) while at the same time condemning the men who buy this porn if they so much as look at a girl on the street for more than a half-second? Pervert! Sicko! I've had teen girls have crushes on me and come on to me, but the law prohibits my interacting with them. If such laws didn't exist...I'd be very tempted to act on my natural, males urges. As a father of a teenaged girl, I wouldn't want a "dirty 30"-year-old man dating my daughter...just because. I'm not sure I really know why I feel that way. Maybe because as we mature we get many new ideas for sex, and I simply can't imagine my little girl being tied up in bondage and spanked by some older guy. In any case, older men love young girls, and young girls have always been intrigued by older men because 1) girls want to be loved and feel desirable, 2) they enjoying knowledge and learning, 3) men are more emotionally mature and not preoccupied with video games/toys, 4) older men have money to take them out, to travel, to buy them things, etc. Throughout history, women of all ages have preferred "men" to "little boys." There's a reason for that... If there's mutual consent, I don't really see who's being harmed. With regard to the initial topic: if you're not comfortable with this guy, be honest and tell him his past unsettles you and makes you uncomfortable. Why the hell can't people just be honest with people, rather than make up some stupid excuse/lie? That's one of the many things that's wrong with this world. Nobody will level with anybody. The guy didn't brutally rape anyone, but what he did was illegal. I doubt he's going to feel any hostililty towards you, but that's for you to discern. Good luck. Edited by - Cryogenix on 5/23/2009 10:11:07 AM
I've heard some similar things, but not that its gradual. It's more that at mid-30ish and upwards the risk of complications grow. I don't think 29 or 30 is more risky than 16. If anyone could find a source that would be great of course.This I really, really doubt. It does not sound logical at all to me.
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - May 23 2009 : 11:59AM
[url=347370]<brThe common belief among most doctors is that men reach their sexual peak at the age of 18, which explains why teenage boys spend an inordinate amount of time in the shower.
That may be what you believe, but every known study out there would contradict your beliefs. It has been genetically proven that male sperm potency is at the highest from ages 20-30. At age 30, a mans testosterone will start to drop...THAT is nature. Facts: -Men who are 35 or older are twice as likely to be infertile as men under age 25. -The mid-thirties also bring a significant increase in sperm DNA damage and thus an increased risk of producing birth defects. -One in 99 fathers ages 30-35 sire children with schizophrenia versus one in 141 for fathers under age 25. -Type 2 diabetes and metabolic syndrome, involving pre-diabetes symptoms and cardiovascular risk factors, start to occur more often in men aged 40+. Both disorders are strongly associated with below-normal levels of testosterone, lowering potency. -Men 40 and older are nearly six times more likely to have offspring with autism than men younger than 30. Many sources: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/44641.php http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=157 http://how-old-is-too-old.blogspot.com/2008/02/sperm-facts.html Most studies would support the theory that younger women often prefer older men when choosing to procreate....but this is a psychological response to wanting security during the 9 months of pregnancy she will have to endure. Men, by contrast, focus on younger women due to the visual and physical aspects of their beauty. They don't have to carry the baby to term...they simply want a willing and attractive receptacle for their sperm. So yes, an older man who is attracted to younger women may not be wrong, even "jailbait." But nature notwithstanding, if the law of the land makes acting on such "instinctive behavior" illegal, the man doing it must learn to either control their baser instincts or face the consequences of their actions. To try and stand up and defend your actions as "Sorry, nature made me do it" is to admit that you aren't much of a man as you can't control yourself. Does this make murder OK as well? I mean, having sat on a jury during a murder trial that was clearly a crime of passion, I totally could understand the MOTIVES of the killer. He caught his wife in bed with his brother doing the nasty. He was working 3 jobs to support her spending habits while she sat home and fucked his brother behind his back. I could RELATE to his anger. I could UNDERSTAND his feelings of hostility and rage. I could even have some COMPASSION for his actions. But that still doesn't justify killing his wife and brother. Having feelings isn't a crime. I've got teenaged daughters as well and they have teenaged friends who come over and hang out at the pool. At 17 they are totally attractive. I'm not going to deny the male desires I have when I see them running around half naked. But I WILL and DO deny myself to dwell on these feelings and to act on them. Why? It's called a moral compass. Not everyone has one. Not everyone's works all that well. Mine doesn't sometimes. But on this matter, it does. Now having said all of the above, I still believe the man in question seems to be trying to rehabilitate himself into becoming a contributing member of society, however flawed. I wouldn't have fired him unless he posed some threat to me or society. I also don't believe in taking away jobs from recovering alcoholics or drug abusers for the same reasons. If they are actively staying clean and actively contributing to society, I believe I have an obligation to not deny them the chance to improve their lives. That's just me.
I respectfully disagree. While kids today are exposed to more sexually explicit material and are much better educated about sex than those who came of age in the latter half of the 20th century, they're not more mature. 16-year-olds are not prepared for adulthood. As late as the 1950's, most girls were expected to marry and start families right out of high school, or after college at the latest. Since the dawn of humanity, girls matured at a natural pace and were instructed by their mothers, grandmothers and aunts in the skills necessary to run a household and raise children. They performed back-breaking chores on a daily basis, often cared for multiple younger siblings, and were ready to enter the adult world when they reached sexual maturity. Childhood was short. I argue that a 14-year-old girl in 1905, who'd already spent 3 years performing child labor in a factory to help feed her brothers, sisters and parents, had sewn her own clothes, made meals from scratch, milked cows, harvested crops and helped deliver neighbors' babies was far more mature than any 14-year-old girl today. Even if she were brought up as a privileged debutant, she was still groomed for the responsibilities that came with womanhood. Whereas our grandmothers were ready to hit the ground running at age 18, our daughters are still pondering their academic options, daydreaming about possible careers, working for disposable income, and enjoying an unprecedented amount of leisure. So yes, girls today can roll a condom onto a banana at school, can see any number of sex acts on the internet, can prevent unwanted pregnancy, can dress provocatively in public, and feel free to fuck anybody they want. But with few exceptions, they're not fully mature.
^Ah, yes - prolonged adolescence. I'm not convinced it's the good thing our society likes to believe it is. Granted that there may be some benefit to letting children explore various fields into which they may pursue a career, it seems to me that it is as much about parental fantasies of childhood happiness as anything else. For myself, I'm a big fan of raising children on a farm, and giving them responsibilities at any early age. In fact, there's a working farm down around here that takes in problem kids from the city and turns them around. Their biggest problem is that they can't take in anywhere near all the kids that people want to send to them.
I don't recall ever saying they're more responsible or ready for parenthood, just more aware of their environment and the ways of the world (and of laws) than my generation was, to the point today's teens (and adolescents) have blackmailed their parents and sometimes even gotten them arrested by setting them up. Kids aren't as innocent as today's parents think they are. Kids know what they're doing in this era more than any other in history.
Early maturity is no picnic. I became pregnant with my first child when I was 12. Physically, it was not great for me - bones in my spine fused prematurely, I quit growing, and I did not experience a normal puberty and development. I had six live births between 1982 and 1990. Five of those children survived infancy. Four of the pregnancies were difficult. Not a single one of my infants weighed as much as 6 pounds when they were born. All were considered low birth weight, one was premature, and one was borderline (37 weeks). I never smoked, I never took drugs, I had excellent medical care. There is no history of poor pregnancy outcome in my family. I know men are physically attracted to young, even VERY young, girls. I don't believe for even a second that it's biologically driven for positive procreation and that young girls are at their best breeding time. Many, many, many animal studies have shown that very young animal mothers produce smaller and less neurologically developed infants. They also show that young animal mothers are less attentive and successful at rearing their offspring. Humans are still animals. Men want to have sex with girls because they are easy prey in the mating game. I do believe that many men are stuck with the images of girls in their mind from their first sexual awakenings. I do believe that men will tell themselves anything to convince themselves that it is okay to sexualize children. 14 year old girls are not women. I don't care how round their hips are or how big their boobs are, their brains are 14 and they are children. It's not just society, it IS biology. Historically, society has been forced to allow, and even encourage, very young mating. When most people could not look forward to a life span of more than 35 years, it was crucial to begin the next generation as early as possible. That didn't make it right, it only made it necessary. Similarly, older men with resources were given the greatest opportunity to create offspring, and mated with young girls. Humans are supposed to be able to reason. The pressure to mate with children has been relieved in most Western societies. Stop rationalizing the desire to do it and stop accepting it.
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Ha ... for once, I agree with Eyeballs a Bleeding. But carry on. I just think the whole issue is as simple as: Katsirk is not comfortable with her trainer's criminal past. She cancels and decides he doesn't need an explanation. Case closed. Sometimes, these discussions on ADT remind me of agonizing neighborhood committee meetings. Although, must say, Licker's extreme phobia of being in range of juveniles sounds really weird! But .. different strokes, as it were!
This is the most convincing argument I have ever heard about this. Point well made Kimi. I have noticed myself that second and third sons are nearly always taller than their first-born brothers when they reach adult life. This might suggest that even the early twenties are too young for pregnancy. Then again, other risks begin at around 30, so the safe window is not very wide. Basically, evolution has left our bodies in a fairly screwed up mess. The law, however, doesn't care. It says nothing about pregnancy. It's only the sex that the law objects to. The "conservatives" want to force underage rape victims to continue the pregnancy to full term, regardless of what harm it might do to them.
Would now be a good time to start a "My sex offender is a fitness trainer" thread and how I want to fire him for being a fitness trainer. Or should I let it sit for a week?
Quote from Kimi Lixx: Early maturity is no picnic. I became pregnant with my first child when I was 12. Physically, it was not great for me - bones in my spine fused prematurely, I quit growing, and I did not experience a normal puberty and development. I had six live births between 1982 and 1990. Five of those children survived infancy. Four of the pregnancies were difficult. Not a single one of my infants weighed as much as 6 pounds when they were born. All were considered low birth weight, one was premature, and one was borderline (37 weeks). I never smoked, I never took drugs, I had excellent medical care. There is no history of poor pregnancy outcome in my family. . . . Men want to have sex with girls because they are easy prey in the mating game. I do believe that many men are stuck with the images of girls in their mind from their first sexual awakenings. I do believe that men will tell themselves anything to convince themselves that it is okay to sexualize children. 14 year old girls are not women. I don't care how round their hips are or how big their boobs are, their brains are 14 and they are children. It's not just society, it IS biology. Historically, society has been forced to allow, and even encourage, very young mating. When most people could not look forward to a life span of more than 35 years, it was crucial to begin the next generation as early as possible. That didn't make it right, it only made it necessary. Similarly, older men with resources were given the greatest opportunity to create offspring, and mated with young girls. Humans are supposed to be able to reason. The pressure to mate with children has been relieved in most Western societies. Stop rationalizing the desire to do it and stop accepting it.) First, I am sorry Kimi that you were essentially raped at 12. I think it is reprehensible that a 12 year old child could be treated in such a manner (I believe that sex with a young child is rape no matter what the circumstances). I hope the person that did this to you is rotting in prison right now. As you say, 14 year olds are not mature enough to have sex -- so I can infer that 12 is also too young! Any adult that would have sex with a 12 year old should have his dick and balls cut off and made to eat them in the town square, then hanged by the neck until dead! I have another somewhat related question. In Michigan, sex outside of a legally recognized marriage is a felony punishable by four years in prison. Would you all have the same attitude if both people were 30 plus? Would you still not hire that person due to a criminal record even though that same act is legal in 48 out of 50 states (it carries life in prison in Utah as well)? BTW don't feel sorry for me, I just go to Ohio to get my rocks off!
I have a neighbor who is a registered sex offender. In the 6 years I've lived here, there have been several petitions passed around the neighborhood warning that he is a threat to teen-aged girls in the area and attempting to force him out. There are also people who find it abhorrent that he is allowed to live in a home with three daughters, aged 7, 9 and 12. However, there is a back story: At age 18 and a senior in HS, he was prosecuted for having sex with his 16-y/o girlfriend, a junior in that same HS -- a relationship of which her parents most definitely did not approve. He served five years in jail. Upon his release, he and the girlfriend were married. (BTW, he's black and she's white - does that explain things?) They are still together and seem to be a wonderful couple with three wonderful children. However, in the eyes of the law and in the hearts of many nosy neighbors, he will always be a registered sex offender. I think each case should be handled on its own merits. I don't condone a 34-y/o coach having sex with 14 and 15 year old cheerleaders in his charge. There are, however, a lot of worse situations as well as some more benign, all lumped under the registered sex offender label. Supposedly, he's paid his debt and learned his lesson. I wouldn't want the ex-coach working with teen-agers; however, I don't see a problem with his working as a fitness trainer with other adults. Edited by - GaySatyr on 8/29/2009 11:42:33 AM
“Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.” - Kierkegaard 2684 Posts 8/09
Posted - Aug 30 2009 : 11:09AM
I agree with Proxy & Bob. Legally he might have paid his debt to society, but that doesn't take away the fact that he molested 14-15 year old girls. Everyone is responsible for their past actions and just because s/he served his time (thus wiping the slate clean legally) doesn't make his actions go away. She doesn't need a reason to discontinue doing business, especially with someone with an egregious past as him. As for doing business with Microsoft that is a whole different unrelated argument and ridiculous to draw a parallel to. If it were me, I would just fire him without a reason. He is responsible for his past behavior, reformed or not.
“Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.” - Kierkegaard 2684 Posts 8/09
Posted - Aug 30 2009 : 12:11PM
LubeNLuv, I couldn't agree with you more with the exception to your last paragraph. I also believe in general forgiveness and helping reform convicted felons. However, I agree with the woman in this case where she didn't want to do business based on the person's past egregious behavior, not on present probability of recidivism. Discontinue employing him professionally does not equate to preventing him from making a living (overall) or reduce his chance to improve his life. The onus is on him to improve his life, not on her; losing her business does not make a failed life. Cryogenix, irrespective of the physiological maturity of under-aged teens, the intent of the laws is to protect children from being exploited, especially from adults abusing power and positions. I also disagree that 13-17 have mysteriously evolved psychologically and emotionally recently. Although they might dress more scandalous and act older these days, this doesn't equate to them making more mature/responsible choices. I know there have been a scary number of cases where people have been falsely accused and convicted of molestation, however, this is not reason to scrap a law that protects under-aged teens and punishes violators.
