It's also worth saying that of the message boards I've visited this is by far the most professionally run . That doesn't mean I agree with each and every decision , but it's not easy being human , is it .
Lee, I do not troll. Please read posts before criticizing them.
My posts may not be the most tightly reasoned around, and obviously not everyone will agree with them. But they are serious posts asking a serious question.
Nothing in my text or logic compares ADT to any other forum. Also, my logic explicitly covers the question of the value of fanboy vs. industry player participation.
You suggested that Steph could choose to have a more free forum where industry people would decide to post their opinions more readily . I just pointed out the gaping hole in your fantasy by comparing it to the shallow reality of a forum which has tried to follow those rules . If anything the decision to have safeguards has probably convinced more porn performers to post here than would have done otherwise . Complain that they don't speak their minds if you want , but at least they're speaking - well , typing . That should please those who care .
Your statement about the emptiness of 'fan-boy' posts set against those gold plated industry posts is an opinion . Just an opinion . Personally I wonder how spreading your legs in front of a camera makes someone automatically worth reading . But that's just me . There are interesting industry folk to be sure , but not because of their amazing ability to , shock , fuck on tape ! If you're looking for more than just "I think you're amazing !!!!" followed by "You guys rock !" then you're probably hoping in vain . Why would you want more anyway , is this some kind of psychology project ?
Not everyone has to use these forums in the same way , or get the same things out of them though , do they . Some are all over the stars , others ignore them entirely . Swings and roundabouts and bouncy castles .
I doubt itADT is like sleeping in a warm comfortable bed, that other board is like sleeping in a cardboard box behind a drug store on a rainy night next to a noisy generator.
Lee, I have not suggested an "Ungoverned" forum. Please don't fixate on that. There is a broad spectrum between totalitarianism and anarchy; I'm suggesting a slight shift might be beneficial, not a giant leap to total anarchy.
Specifically, the analysis that says member X is or is not worth the trouble probably needs to be different for industry participants, since I believe they add significantly more value than the average fanboy.
It's a pretty safe bet that the average member would rather read a post from Jewel De'Nyle than from jrv or Lee O. I don't think I'm going out on a limb on that one. I don't think I'd take more than two votes from Jewel in a poll, and neither would be mine.Perhaps I'm missing something, but my understanding is that Jewel directs (whatever that means) and produces, and perhaps has some amount of management responsibility at PXP, within her product lines at least. That seems likely to require more talent to do successfully than merely spreading one's legs...Agreed.
Note that I don't read pornstar writings uncritically. Even the most biased people can unwittingly give away useful information: "I worked with so-and-so yesterday" tells me that so-and-so is apparently still working. Exactly that has corrected false information a couple of times.
From my observation, When "industry insiders" post here at ADT, it is more of the shameless self-promoting variety and not the insider's thoughts or insights.
Let's be honest here and I'm going to use Jenna as an example (and not to call her out) -- when does she start threads or posts replies? Isn't the vast majority to promote a new signing or a new release? It certainly isn't when fans pose your average inquiry.
Anyway, Jewel was just one member at ADT and Steph and Drew set the rules to abide by here at ADT.
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Mayor of Chatsworth Freelance Pornographer
Chatsworth, CA 178 Posts 1/05
Posted - Mar 8 2005 : 12:06PM
Yes, there is a lot of self-promoting, some of it verging on spam, and I would say too many spam-like postings are tolerated. But there are also many insiders willing to share their knowledge and opinions with the ADT community. Maybe you don't notice the mass of these postings as they're nested inside hundreds of different threads, and spread among the many ADT forums.
I think your comment disparages these insiders, and does so unfairly.
Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99
Posted - Mar 8 2005 : 12:12PM
Being an industry insider does not give one the ok to attack other members. It is my hope that people representing companies would act in a professional manner in our forums. Many have and I thank them for it. Some have not.
This forum will never be a free-for-all. There are plenty of those on the internet full of 13-yr olds having a ball.
I am happy to read rational feedback and have always been willing to rethink decisions. I have given many people second and third chances. I am a human simply trying to be fair and have a forum that people want to visit. In this case Jewel said "I could care less if I ever talk on your site again your loss not mine."
I ignore those of you who have made clear you are only here to stir up shit. Trolls generally go away when people ignore them.
You can't please all the people all the time. Some want us to moderate and ban more, some less.
I was just made aware of this thread about 20 minutes ago and am still trying to make my way through it all. ADT isn't my full time gig and I don't read this particular forum unless prompted to do so.
FWIW, there were many instances in the past where I feel that we should have pulled the trigger on banning Jewel. I never liked the fact that she was "allowed" to rant in a fashion that would get other people banned in an instant. Yes, she received a lot of leeway and it was becomming a problem. She was asked to play nicely at least a half-dozen times over the years via email. The last time the response was extremely caustic. It made the descision very to pull the trigger very easy.
One the one hand Jewel is missed by many here, on the other hand many people are happy to see her gone.
I am gonna go out on a limb here and give my two cents. I know I don't post super often, and when I do, it is press... but, I DO read this forum EVERY day. It helps me stay in the know about what talent is hot and what fans want to see and what directors think about all different subjects. I don't feel the need to post to every thread, only if my reply is of some value. I don't think a person should be scolded everytime they get a little heated and say something rash. That is what makes discussion boards interesting. Jewel has a way about her that can rub people wrong, but at least your getting rubbed... Just my thoughts...
Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99
Posted - Mar 8 2005 : 12:49PM
Guys - it doesn't matter how many of you want her back. She does not want to come back. She voluntarily left and said goodbye not too long ago (remember?) Moreover, I don't make decisions based on polls. Like I said I will always listen to rational feedback.
Whether you liked Jewel or not, I don't think anybody can disagree with that statement. Unfortunately, Jewel refused to play well with others sometimes and got downright nasty as well. I don't know if it was the straw that broke the camel's back or not (I'm still making my way through all of this thread), but when Bill questioned her after the HIV outbreak and she wished HIV on him, that should have pulled the trigger right there. She had enough instances like that that although I think she really added a lot sometimes, I can completely support deactivating her account here.
"Vegetarianism for me is about saying ‘yes’ to things - even meat." - Coupling
For my part I've always found Jewel to be very nice to chat with but I can see what Jenna is saying in her last post. I definitely sense a strong will in Jewel and say what you will it's a big reason she's where she is today I would think. I've enjoyed her as a performer mostly and that's really the most important part for the average viewer I think. Getting to know her as a person albiet briefly in Vegas and then in LA last year was nice and I will look forward to hopefully seeing her again this June. I wish her nothing but success with Platinum X! Now I'm off for some Spring Training Baseball. It's an ESPN game on at 12 so look for me,hehe. BTW it's the Giants v. Rangers, their stadium is like 10 minutes from my apt!
I think you got a pretty thick limb to go out there, Jenna, with a lot of common sense. The problem occurs when a person repeatedly rubs people. Maybe part of it is meant to be humor (which is often lost with the written word), but there was also a lot of bile.
All that said, there's a lot of stars who have their own forums. Excuse me for having a case of raging reviewer ego for the example, but let's that somebody like me, or Rog or another well known reviewer joins a stars free forum and continually rubs people. Yeah, we're a known quantity who tries to give insight that allows companies to improve their product. How much leeway should we be given to rub people? How many stars are going to leave us hang around and rub people the wrong way (including personally attacking moderators on their site) after we respond to their e-mail asking us to watch how we say things a little better if we tell them to shove it and that we'll write whatever we dang well feel like?
Don't get me wrong, I think Jewel added a lot, but her attitude also caused a fair amount of hurt and it's up to Steph and Drew to decide when the help outweighs the hurt.
"Vegetarianism for me is about saying ‘yes’ to things - even meat." - Coupling
I think a LOT of her postings were hype, just as I think a lot of yours are hype, Jenna--but that's niether here nor there.
I'll give my opinion though--I pretty much side with Astroknight and what he's said. If Jewel wanted to come back, I say +1 to letting Jewel back. She did bring something to the forum. At the same time, though, most of her participation was nothing more than spam for Platinum X. She's certainly not the only one like that--but that's certainly not why she was deactivated, either.
To be truthful, I won't particularly miss her, but I guess I don't care one way or the other.
Ultimately, as Steph said, Jewel has to want to come back.
Anyway, that's just my opinion. No one else has to feel the same way I do. This is a good thread.
ALL of her postings might not be true , but I have to be honest, many of the stars I have seen only post to(self)promote or defend themselves, not to offer valuable insight on any specific topics. THERE are exceptions, (so don't jump down my throat people), definitely Tricia and Kami stick out as ones. Granted some stars are attacked sometimes because of their status or fawned over(if I see another person write "what an honor it is to be writing in the same thread as..."I think I will jump out a window.), but IMHO it goes hand and hand in that with the fact that sometimes they abuse their popularity and name for personal gain ("check out my website," wait until you see the new scene I have coming up with person X its hot") Personally, I will miss Jewel, but I applaud Steph and company for sticking by their guns and not allowing special privileges due to her status as a star.
Edited forTYPOS because I can't spell or write today by - phatbasey on 3/8/2005 2:15:39 PM
As Jenna already put out, her posts weren't all spam. Of course, when people asked her for some recommendations she always recommended PXP stuff, but that's because she was not only a regular poster, but also a business woman.
And I must have missed out on much of her rudeness. I remember one or two threads were she and Bill weren't exactly paying compliments to each other, but in my opinion, that was not worse than some of the stuff AC Cream put up in probably hundreds of other threads.
I don't know about what Jewel said in private e-mails, and maybe it's true she couldn't care less about being deactivated, but I know that I would gave preferred her to stay on the forum.
IAFD, supporters of beastiality. Just say no. 7564 Posts 11/02
Posted - Mar 8 2005 : 2:15PM
Seems every ADT regular has added his/her two cents here. I can't be left behind.
I have two thoughts: (Wow, Walter, you are so modest today. Only two thoughts?)
1) I have always felt that industry participation has as much negative aspects as it does have positive ones... at least if one is looking for a discussion forum.
2) Not every post made by a non-industry member is made by a slavering fan boy.
Let me in on something.... Is it bad to promote here? It seems as if people are looking at it like a disease growing within this forum... I always thought that it was appreciated and needed to bring everyones attention to new product. Otherwise people would be left in the dark when it comes to specifics about the films.
Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99
Posted - Mar 8 2005 : 2:33PM
There's a difference between passing on information and promoting. Many come here to find out about contract signings and new releases. That's as much news as it is promotion. The problem is when someone is looking for recommendations and industry people use that to promote a product that has little to do with the request at hand.
I have a high art, I hurt with cruelty those who would damage me. 225 Posts 4/04
Posted - Mar 8 2005 : 2:37PM
Jewel added a lot of information that was useful to her fans and a whole lot of entertainment value to this board. I do hope that drew and steph reconsider her deactivation but if they don't she should always know she is welcome on other boards.
Heck no, and I think in a lot of instances it's helped things out for everybody. There's been movie titles named, stars put together in scenes that might not have otherwise, and other good things that have happened. Heck, part of the reason Steph and I started doing a guest pollster now and then for the weekly poll was promotion. Like virtually anything else in the universe, it's only bad if it's taken to an extreme (and I don't think Jewel did that).
"Vegetarianism for me is about saying ‘yes’ to things - even meat." - Coupling
In my opinion Tricia Deveraux is the perfect example of how an insider should post here and I'm not saying this just because she's an all-time favorite of mine. She treats people with respect and doesn't feel the need to overpromote Evil Angel DVD's because I think she knows the fans are already too smart to know which DVD's to buy and which not.
I also get the feeling she doesn't look down on the fans who post here unlike some other insiders who post here, insiders who think they're doing us fans a favour by posting here but they forget it's us fans who keep them in the business!
All I can say is that it doesn't bother me at all (as long as it doesn't sound like a press release, that is). It wouldn't be very natural either, for a person in the industry not to mention his/her own products whilst adding to a thread. I think the way most of the 'professionals' who post here do it is pretty agreeable.
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Ivor Biggun Deactivated User
99 Posts 6/04
Posted - Mar 8 2005 : 2:56PM
Well it's good to see you acknowledge what has been obvious to many of us, that Jewel did get special treatment. FWIW, I don't think stars should be treated any differently, but then again I don't think a little bitchiness should warrant a ban either.
In my opinon it is NOT BAD to promote here, it is BAD if All you (not you personally JJ or anyone, but collective you) do IS promote. I can not speak for anyone but myself but I feel that this forum is great to learn about people and have fun and sometimes it does not feel like the Stars truly share they just sell.
Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99
Posted - Mar 8 2005 : 3:29PM
Jenna - part of the problem is that we don't offer a better way for studios to promote new releases. We are working on that. In the meantime we have the Porn News forum so that you can all promote movies, signings, etc. That way those who don't want to read promotion don't have to read that forum. And those that want it can get it. Considering how quickly that forum has grown in popularity it's clear there are plenty of people who want it.
On this subject, I think some people here would prefer that the focused promotion remain in the "Porn News and Press Releases" section, since that's what it's there for. Personally, if it's just an added 10-word post in some thread about what's a good Paola Rey movie, I never thought it was a big deal.
The problem is, I think the illusion (and in many cases, the reality) that a lot of people would like to maintain here is that the industry people care about the fans as more than just their revenue source -- that they are interacting with us here as individuals, not as a product and a market. Self-promotion that is a little too dedicated cracks that illusion. (For what it's worth, Jenna, your participation in this thread is probably exactly what everybody likes.)
She is Kelly Lords and is clickable 175 Posts 12/04
Posted - Mar 8 2005 : 3:41PM
Major Sharp, see updated avatar caption.I said in my first post that I understand that they don't want to give someone special privileges, but I never said that I agree that this policy is the right way to go. To be honest, I don't. My opinion is that anonymous users, like myself, should obey to stricter rules than users who post under their real-life identity. I'm probably in minority on this one, but this is what I think.
promote but don't make it sound like PR, recommend but not your own stuff?
my point...why wouldn't one if they really believed in their product and stood by it? is that bad?
aside from that, JdN did contribute, whether you dug her or did not, some personality.
Her coming back tho...you can't put the genie back in the bottle. If i got bounced i wouldn't be knocking on the door to be let back in. I can't see that she would want to as well.
Posted - Mar 8 2005 : 5:54AM