Paul Fishbein should have kept mum

Author	Post
arthur Deactivated User 165 Posts 9/04	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 5:55PM In an article on another thread on this forum, Paul Fishbein of AVN sings Vivid's praises in what appears to me to be pure promotion of Vivid. I just wonder if this is appropriate, especially considering the fact that AVN reviews movies that are put out by Vivid. I think Paul should have kept mum on the basis that singing Vivid's praises may compromise the notion that AVN's reviews are impartial. [Link]
Pornmaster Mike Senior Member 32DDD 1462 Posts 8/02	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 6:02PM AVN will always plug Vivid because: 1 - Fishbein and Hirsch are good friends and 2 - Vivid's the closest company to mainstream that porn has - of course they will plug the most "accepted" porn company... - Pornmaster Mike [Link]
arthur Deactivated User 165 Posts 9/04	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 6:09PM Whether Fishbein and Hirsch are friends is beside the point. It's inappropriate, in my view, for Fishbein to be singing Vivid's praises in the way he did in the article. As for the notion that Vivid is the closest thing porn has to the mainstream, I think that's really quite an airy fairy notion. Straight porn will never achieve mainstream status unless it gets rid of the bisexual double standard. In the intellectual mainstream, people won't accept the promotion of female bisexuality and the neglect of male bisexuality. [Link]
MLyons Senior Member 1617 Posts 8/02	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 6:14PM Ah... arthur's tired bisexualilty agenda rears its head once again... To speak to the actual TOPIC... I read the artical and thought it looked more like a fluff/promotional/back patting/porn as corporation/branding piece than anything of actual newsworthy note. All I can say is, big surprise. ::shrug:: Edited by - MLyons on 3/14/2005 6:14:29 PM [Link]
Harri Patel Senior Member #SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele 5110 Posts 3/03	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 6:20PM arthur wrote: I think Paul should have kept mum on the basis that singing Vivid's praises may compromise the notion that AVN's reviews are impartial. Click to expand Name any living human being who entertains that notion. [Link]

Jacco All-Star Member "liable to deprave and corrupt" 2673 Posts 5/04	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 6:31PM Harri Patel wrote: arthur wrote: I think Paul should have kept mum on the basis that singing Vivid's praises may compromise the notion that AVN's reviews are impartial. Click to expand Name any living human being who entertains that notion. Click to expand If you would go to the remotest part of New Guinea or so, you might find one, Harri! Jacco [Link]
Hardware All-Star Member Your other left 14595 Posts 3/02	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 6:33PM AVN is a promotional organ of the industry. It is not an independent news organization. It's biggest supporter is probably Vivid. I'm sure you aren't the only one annoyed that it isn't impartial but nobody else seriously expects it to be. [Link]
arthur Deactivated User 165 Posts 9/04	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 6:40PM If AVN has this relationship with Vivid, then it should be made clear in both AVN's website as well as its magazine that such a relationship exists. It's called putting your cards on the table so that the consumer knows where he stands. [Link]
Hardware All-Star Member Your other left 14595 Posts 3/02	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 6:41PM I wasn't aware that your average consumer even knew that AVN existed. So far as I can tell, it is primarily targetted at distributors and retailers. [Link]
astroknight Questionable Moderator Tastes so good... 4187 Posts 11/99	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 6:53PM MLyons wrote: Ah... arthur's tired bisexualilty agenda rears its head once again... Click to expand Yeah, but this time he somehow restrained himself and brought it up in the second post. In all seriousness, I was amazed and actually considered bypassing the thread to avoid the whining about no male bisexuality. "Vegetarianism for me is about saying ‘yes’ to things - even meat." - Coupling [Link]
arthur Deactivated User 165 Posts 9/04	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 7:03PM If AVN is targeted more towards retailers and distributors, all the more reason for it to have all its cards on the table. If I'm a retailer, I want to know that the reviews I'm reading are as objective as objective can be before I decide on selling the product. [Link]
JAGnLA All-Star Member people pay me NOT to get naked 1944 Posts 2/04	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 7:08PM arthur wrote: In the intellectual mainstream, people won't accept the promotion of female bisexuality and the neglect of male bisexuality. Click to expand First of all the term "intellectual mainstream" is an oxymoron. Secondly nothing could be further from the truth. There is absoltely 0 % chance of the mainstream - intellectual or otherwise - ever accepting male bisexual images in their media. [Link]
Bill All-Star Member 5334 Posts 6/00	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 7:10PM AVN is a trade publication. A significant portion of its purpose is to promote the trade. If the article had been written on Wicked, Evil Angel, Anabolic, Digital Playground, etc,... Paul Fishbein would have had said wonderful things about those companies too. That's his job. [Link]
arthur Deactivated User 165 Posts 9/04	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 7:20PM JAGnLA, My point is that the intellectual mainstream won't accept the selective homophobia of the straight porn industry, hence it won't accept the straight porn industry as it currently stands. In the great big world out there, where reason reigns, there is no way the public is going to accept images of bisexual females without also accepting images of bisexual males. Accepting one and not the other is an exercise in flawed logic, and the mainstream knows it. [Link]
arthur Deactivated User 165 Posts 9/04	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 7:34PM Bill, It's the adult companies' job to promote themselves, not Paul Fishbein's. [Link]

Hardware All-Star Member Your other left 14595 Posts 3/02	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 7:39PM What part of 'promotional organ for the industry' didn't you understand? PS- The public accepts flawed logic all the time. Puuuuhlease. [Link]
arthur Deactivated User 165 Posts 9/04	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 7:51PM Hardware, You've got to be kidding me about the average consumer not knowing AVN exists. Of course consumers know about it. I honestly don't know what world you're living in. As for "promotional organ for the industry", I have no issue with AVN having this role in the general sense. But I do have concerns if and when favorable comments are made about a particular company whose movies it reviews on a regular basis. [Link]
Hardware All-Star Member Your other left 14595 Posts 3/02	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 8:03PM arthur wrote: You've got to be kidding me about the average consumer not knowing AVN exists. Of course consumers know about it. Click to expand There's no 'of course' about it. Who do you think the average porn consumer is, anyway? Us? That would be a laugh. [Link]
Bill All-Star Member 5334 Posts 6/00	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 8:38PM arthur wrote: Bill, It's the adult companies' job to promote themselves, not Paul Fishbein's. Click to expand It's Fishbein's job to promote the industry. Every good article about a company in the industry serves to promote the industry as a whole. If you don't understand that, then you're not trying. [Link]
Walter Burns Legendary Quoter IAFD, supporters of beastiality. Just say no. 7564 Posts 11/02	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 8:46PM arthur wrote: In the great big world out there, where reason reigns, ... Click to expand Where what? Sir Noel Plum asid: "I guess that's all I want to write here and as I've guessed correctly I'll stop." (I guess that has earned you a quote and as I've guessed correctly, I will quote you.) [Link]
baronorca Member Montana 528 Posts 1/01	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 8:52PM As a retailer, the only real use I get from AVN is to see what the cover of a video looks like. The news is stale, the reviews outdated & the editorials boring. Then again, it's free (to retailers). arthur wrote: If AVN is targeted more towards retailers and distributors, all the more reason for it to have all its cards on the table. If I'm a retailer, I want to know that the reviews I'm reading are as objective as objective can be before I decide on selling the product. Click to expand [Link]
Walter Burns Legendary Quoter IAFD, supporters of beastiality. Just say no. 7564 Posts 11/02	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 8:56PM baronorca wrote: Then again, it's free (to retailers). Click to expand That's outrageous. I used to pay 284$ for a one year subscription! I was robbed. Twice. KimiLixx said: "Maybe you adventure cravers don't get your daily dose of adrenalin or something. You need to live with teenagers that you're responsible for. Oh yeah, that gets your heart racing on a regular basis." [Link]
baronorca Member Montana 528 Posts 1/01	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 8:58PM Please stop using the term "homophobia", hardly anyone is "afraid of" homosexuals, they just have no use for them. Mainstream porn is about the fantasies of straight (for the most part) men, when women make up a major part of the porn watching public, then "male homosexual scenes" will become commonplace in mainstream porn. Until then, enjoy the back of the bus. :) arthur wrote: JAGnLA, My point is that the intellectual mainstream won't accept the selective homophobia of the straight porn industry, hence it won't accept the straight porn industry as it currently stands. In the great big world out there, where reason reigns, there is no way the public is going to accept images of bisexual females without also accepting images of bisexual males. Accepting one and not the other is an exercise in flawed logic, and the mainstream knows it. Click to expand [Link]
MLyons Senior Member 1617 Posts 8/02	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 9:07PM Walter Burns wrote: That's outrageous. I used to pay 284$ for a one year subscription! I was robbed. Twice. Click to expand Wow, are you crazy? The only thing I find interesting about AVN Magazine is the ads. And well... I wouldn't pay their subscription fees to look at the ads. This thread is great though. It's like an Abbot and Costello routine! :) [Link]
Steve Holmes Senior Member 1235 Posts 12/02	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 9:11PM arthur wrote: ... In the great big world out there, where reason reigns, there is no way the public is going to accept images of bisexual females without also accepting images of bisexual males. ... Click to expand The world in who I live pretty much does. Most straight people I know find a kissing couple cute when it is two girls but disturbing if it's two guys. The competition in porn is huge. Everybody tries to find their market. If there would be a large enough demand for male bisexual porn, there would be more product. Steve Holmes [Link]

Walter Burns Legendary Quoter IAFD, supporters of beastiality. Just say no. 7564 Posts 11/02	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 9:13PM MLyons wrote: Wow, are you crazy? The only thing I find interesting about AVN Magazine is the ads. Click to expand It was the only source on American porn I had at the time. This was before I was connected to the net. I picked up a copy when I was in LA in August 1996. I used the ads for scanning pictures of porn stars. Hey, you have to start somewhere. Am I Abbott or Costello? Wally said: "If everybody writes only about the stuff they are happy with...who is gonna warn others about the crappy stuff?" [Link]
TonyC Comstock Films 2523 Posts 8/03	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 9:14PM Steve Holmes wrote: The competition in porn is huge. Everybody tries to find their market. If there would be a large enough demand for male bisexual porn, there would be more product. Click to expand Falacious logic. -T.C. Comstock Films:Real Life, Real People, Real Sex [Link]
arthur Deactivated User 165 Posts 9/04	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 9:35PM Tony C, I would say that the straight porn industry is as prejudicial to male bisexuals as the Ku Klux Klan is to blacks. And it uses almost every excuse in the book to exclude male bisexuals from the mainstream. I'm staking out a moral position here by saying that the mainstream SHOULD NOT accept straight porn until the industry gets rid of its selective homophobia. This is non-negotiable. As for the notion that some people find two men kissing disturbing, I don't doubt that. However, let me pass on to you a recent incident. I was in a mixed gay/straight bar and two guys were kissing each other passionately next to a group of straight women. The straight women were looking at them with a mixture of awe, fascination and huge smiles on their faces. [Link]
TonyC Comstock Films 2523 Posts 8/03	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 9:39PM arthur wrote: Tony C, I would say that the straight porn industry is as prejudicial to male bisexuals as the Ku Klux Klan is to blacks. And it uses almost every excuse in the book to exclude male bisexuals from the mainstream. I'm staking out a moral position here by saying that the mainstream SHOULD NOT accept straight porn until the industry gets rid of its selective homophobia. This is non-negotiable. Click to expand You ascribe far too much significance to the "porn industry". -T.C. [Link]
astroknight Questionable Moderator Tastes so good... 4187 Posts 11/99	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 10:21PM Okay people, time to place your bets on how long until arthur is demanding male bisexual scenes in straight porn where the guys are wearing a fur coat or a short sexy leather coat... "Vegetarianism for me is about saying ‘yes’ to things - even meat." - Coupling [Link]
TonyC Comstock Films 2523 Posts 8/03	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 10:23PM astroknight wrote: Okay people, time to place your bets on how long until arthur is demanding male bisexual scenes in straight porn where the guys are wearing a fur coat or a short sexy leather coat... Click to expand Don't forget shot on film . -T.C. Comstock Films:Real Life, Real People, Real Sex [Link]
astroknight Questionable Moderator Tastes so good... 4187 Posts 11/99	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 10:30PM Tony - I thought of adding that, but then I thought eh, it's just porn! "Vegetarianism for me is about saying ‘yes’ to things - even meat." - Coupling [Link]
croy Platinum Member Discovry 4574 Posts 3/04	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 10:32PM It is the job of AVN to promote the industry. They live on ad revenues. They are not the Ralph Naders of porn. This is generally true of all special interest magazines - cars, guns, motorcycles, etc. I have worked in a porn store. The average consumer is not aware of AVN . Ironically it launched the Walter Burns we all know and love. They rent what is on the shelf with hot covers. Your average frat boy knows what Howard Stern tells him. The middle aged guys go for the hot cover. Those that post here and others like them are a minority. The mainstream does not accept male bi-sexuality. Watch Stern. Look at any show from The Tonight Show to The O.C. . The numbers of women kissing women far outnumber men kissing men. On the few shows where men kiss men, they are gay characters or it is an accident. AVN is indeed not like the KKK . They do not actively promote the killing of bi-men or the idea that they are a lesser sub-species. You will probably ignore this part, but: This isn't a moral judgement on your position. It is merely the truth about how most people see bi-sexual men. Steve Holmes is right - most guys like seeing two (hot) women kiss and grope each other. Two men? Not so much. Vivid and the mainstream porn industry in general just ignores or stays away from male bi-sexuality. Vivid is pretty mainstream. Besides VCA they are the only company I know of that has taken out billboard adds. Multiple times, if my memory serves. Jenna Jameson, a contract star, is more well known than any porn star since the infamous Traci Lords. Yet another effort in futility. [Link]
Tinaka Member 953 Posts 8/03	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 10:34PM This bi-sexuality issue is sooooooooo tired zzzzzzzzzz. [Link]
arthur Deactivated User 165 Posts 9/04	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 11:03PM Croy, You're making huge generalizations that are based on selectively homophobic preconceptions. This is just so very typical of the straight porn industry as a whole. As for popular culture, the top-rating TV show Desperate Housewives recently showed two guys (one of whom is probably bisexual) making out in a pool. I scanned the internet message boards afterwards and was pleased as to how many posters (male and female) thought the naked pool make-out was hot. We're talking about a new generation here, folks. Look, to each his own, but don't tell me that female bisexuality should be acceptable and male bisexuality shouldn't. Commercial justification or not, it's an exercise in flawed logic. As for AVN, if I'm reading it I want to be reasonably sure that I'm reading objective porn reviews. If a reasonable measure of objectivity can't be assured, then AVN should say so in a by-line following each review. [Link]

DenverDon Benevolent Firmly Embedded in Depravity 5914 Posts 7/02	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 11:37PM arthur, It's unreasonable to expect AVN to announce that they are not being objective. DenverDon <<<<[[[[ [Link]
Jacco All-Star Member "liable to deprave and corrupt" 2673 Posts 5/04	Posted - Mar 14 2005 : 11:40PM I didn't even know that there are people who pay for AVN. And I don't know anybody who isn't in the industry or is active here who even knows that it exists. (No, I am not getting into the bloody homophobia discussion) Jacco [Link]
Bill All-Star Member 5334 Posts 6/00	Posted - Mar 15 2005 : 12:28AM jacco wrote: I didn't even know that there are people who pay for AVN. And I don't know anybody who isn't in the industry or is active here who even knows that it exists. Click to expand There are some adult video stores in the US that sell it and it's available by subscription (at a pretty high price). The cover price recently went from $7.95 to $11.95 a couple of months ago. Stores are paying approx. $7.00 + shipping for sale copies. [Link]
croy Platinum Member Discovry 4574 Posts 3/04	Posted - Mar 15 2005 : 3:34AM astroknight wrote: Okay people, time to place your bets on how long until arthur is demanding male bisexual scenes in straight porn where the guys are wearing a fur coat or a short sexy leather coat... Click to expand Hasn't he already? [Link]
croy Platinum Member Discovry 4574 Posts 3/04	Posted - Mar 15 2005 : 3:40AM arthur wrote: Croy, You're making huge generalizations that are based on selectively homophobic preconceptions. This is just so very typical of the straight porn industry as a whole. [..] Click to expand I am making generalizations based on what society does. I certainly don't have an exhaustive knowledge of what is on TV. I see no redeeming value in it. A forum dedicated to a show does not show how society in general feels about anything. It shows what fans of a show feel about the series and each episode. A poll of Southerners probably show a large percentage like barbeque in some form. A poll of Russians probably gets a lot of confusion. I never made a suggestion about what should or should not be right. I made observations on what is. This does not mean I disagree with you. Indeed, that statement does not mean I agree, either. Truth is not meant to follow anybody's agenda. It merely exists. [Link]
Paulfishbein AVN 4 Posts 3/05	Posted - Mar 15 2005 : 2:56PM I never get these forums which is why I rarely read them, but you guys are so ready to shoot arrows, yet nobody ever EVER bothers to ask questions. For one, I spoke to the Forbes guy for a half an hour and he chose the quotes to use, not me. We talked about a lot of things and a lot of the adult companies. All I was saying is that if Vivid wants to go public, they'd be a likely choice to succeed. True or false? In the meantime, we talked about plenty of stuff that he didn't use. Also, the point that I would say nice things about Wicked, Evil Angel, Red Light, Hustler or any other big advertiser is absolutely true. The adult industry takes the slings and arrows from the outisde world all the time. When I talk to the media, I try and find the positive things to ttalk about. I am nobody's spokesperson except my own. My opinions are my own. I've been doing this for 22 years. I've been there when the industry has seen 35 busts in two days and where people went on trial for selling sexually explicit movies. Some went to jail. I bet some of you were babies when the industry saw its last round of busts. You need to be there to see it to understand why I am so protective of the companies. Further, all of you guys who like to take shots at the reviews and the awards have never been inside this building. You've never checked out the process for voting. You cannot get inside the heads of 60 different reviewers who watch the product. We are as objective as can be. The bad reviews get capsulized and we try and promote trhe better movies. It's impossible to run full reviews of 1,000 releases a month. To those of you who get that we are a trade publication thank you. You get it. [Link]
constance le Member 212 Posts 10/02	Posted - Mar 15 2005 : 3:16PM 2 words: special olympics [Link]
astroknight Questionable Moderator Tastes so good... 4187 Posts 11/99	Posted - Mar 15 2005 : 3:21PM constance le wrote: 2 words: special olympics Click to expand ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Vegetarianism for me is about saying ‘yes’ to things - even meat." - Coupling [Link]
MLyons Senior Member 1617 Posts 8/02	Posted - Mar 15 2005 : 3:31PM Welcome, Paul! Great to have you here. [Link]
Paulfishbein AVN 4 Posts 3/05	Posted - Mar 15 2005 : 3:32PM I will try my best to stay involved here and answer questions, but you might have to nudge me once in a while because we're actually real busy here!!! [Link]
TonyC Comstock Films 2523 Posts 8/03	Posted - Mar 15 2005 : 3:37PM constance le wrote: 2 words: special olympics Click to expand Two more words: just porn -T.C. Comstock Films:Real Life, Real People, Real Sex [Link]
Asmodeus Lord of Lust az-mo-day-us 6338 Posts 10/01	Posted - Mar 15 2005 : 3:38PM Paul, welcome to the forum! And thank you for taking time to shed a little light on this story. I really hope you stick around and socialize with all us porn freaks from around the globe! [Link]
todhunternet Member Burbank 38 Posts 12/04	Posted - Mar 15 2005 : 4:16PM Paulfishbein wrote: Further, all of you guys who like to take shots at the reviews and the awards have never been inside this building. You've never checked out the process for voting. You cannot get inside the heads of 60 different reviewers who watch the product. We are as objective as can be. The bad reviews get capsulized and we try and promote trhe better movies. It's impossible to run full reviews of 1,000 releases a month. Click to expand At least one of us has been there, been in the meetings, written reviews, and had his paychecks signed by you. And I do not appreciate the condescension. The other posters can speak for themselves. --t Edited by - todhunternet on 3/15/2005 4:16:24 PM [Link]
TonyC Comstock Films 2523 Posts 8/03	Posted - Mar 15 2005 : 4:44PM <creepy nazi accent> It's beautiful! </creepy nazi accent> -T.C. Comstock Films:Real Life, Real People, Real Sex [Link]
MLyons Senior Member 1617 Posts 8/02	Posted - Mar 15 2005 : 4:46PM [Link]
Paulfishbein AVN 4 Posts 3/05	Posted - Mar 15 2005 : 5:45PM Hey Tod Hunter. You do know the deal around here. You were in the meetings. You helped nominate. You voted on awards. You wrote reviews. You were here for years. But instead of standing up and telling the truth.....which isn't really fun reading for yours and other gossip sites....you take shots at AVN and me personally (for example, your assessment of the Philadelphia Magazine piece). Talk about sour grapes. But you don't have the balls to say anything to my face. Why don't you gripe to me perosnally. You have my IM. I see you on line. Or would you then not have any gripes for your little site? [Link]