As someone who used to write for AVN, the charge that AVN has been segregating gay awards or GayVN out of some political agenda to disparage gay people is utter nonsense. The decision to split off the awards was done primarily for logistical reasons - too many award categories, not enough time to do justice to all the major winners. Remember, there was a time in which all the awards were part of one show, but in those days, there were less than 50 award categories. Both Paul Fishbein and Mickey Skee (among others) worked out the details, and the GayVN awards were born. It was born in cooperation, not an imposition. The GayVN award show has also become quite beneficial in maintaining and strengthening ties between the GLBT community and San Fernando.
If you don't break the rules, you'll never have any fun! 717 Posts 10/06
Posted - Dec 26 2010 : 11:05AM
I used to spend a lot of time in the swing community and if you want to see homophobia at a fever pitch then come to a swing party. Virtally all of the men want their women to be "Bi", but just have one of the women want a DP, and then sit back and watch the fun. The guys are so terrified that their junk's going to get too close they can't even keep an erection. Even worse, if you have a swing couple where both partners are "Bi", they are made to feel like the last kid in gym class being picked for dodge ball. I would very much agree that the consumers have made that decision. But....depsite all the noise about gay vs. straight, those glory holes in the adult bookstore video section (that's showing straight porn) didn't appear because they expect Mason Moore to show up and start giving blow jobs! XO Mindee Edited by - Mindee on 12/26/2010 11:09:10 AM
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jobe55 Deactivated User
27 Posts 12/10
Posted - Dec 26 2010 : 4:26PM
Mindee, LOL. That's very funny. I agree about the swing community having a homophobic double standard. I think this points to the fact that both swinging and porn were born from the same mindset - ie to get women to put out for men and to perform lesbian acts for the benefit of men...all for the benefit of the male voyeur. It's a very patriarchal thing in which straight-identifying men control the rules and women go along with them. The role of women in propping up this scenario cannot be discounted. Thankfully, though, it is changing. I think you're seeing a lot more bisexual men in the swing columns. There are clubs that have sprung up all over America which cater to a non-discriminatory ethos and allow male bisexuality within a two-gender paradigm. Nevertheless, let's not forget the background to all this: the difference between men and women. When men say they want sex, they mean it. When women say they want sex, they want either to become pregnant or to gain some form of financial reward or manipulated advantage. There is thus an imbalance in what sex means to the different genders. This imbalance is what ultimately gives us the bisexual double standard we see in the porn world. Edited by - jobe55 on 12/26/2010 4:37:57 PM
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jobe55 Deactivated User
27 Posts 12/10
Posted - Dec 26 2010 : 4:35PM
Sheldon, While I agree that AVN may not have imposed segregation on the porn awards, the message of segregation is still there. It sends out a message that only female homosexuality is compatible with heterosexuality. This is the underlying message of porn in general. As for the male-male porn industry agreeing to the porn awards segregation, I don't doubt it. The male-male paradigm is selfish and segregationist by nature. I suppose one of the themes that comes out of this is this: do we really want porn, which is based on voyeurism, to represent the human sexual experience? I think this question will leave a lot of people thinking as to whether porn is good or bad for society, and specifically for the GLBT community.
THAT'S the real issue. Not the absence of male/male sex in "straight" porn, but the fact that "straight" porn is made with only men and "straight" male desires in mind. It caters exclusively to the likes and dislikes of men. It's not some sinister homophobia on the part of the producers, but that the customer base has no interest.That statement is just plain stupid. I'm not even going to explain why. Just read it again and figure it out for yourself.
The context of 'segregation' makes all the difference. When it comes from the dominant group, yes, it almost always enforces oppression; but when it comes at least somewhat from below, it serves the interests of a persecuted group. That would be better described as separation, not segregation. It's not AVN's fault if people choose to misinterpret the separation of awards ceremonies. And, there are other separate porn award ceremonies - the Feminist Porn awards, and one honoring African-American porn whose name currently escapes me.That comment seems like gay-bashing to me.Porn is not supposed to represent 'experience' - it is supposed to depict sexual fantasies. Fantasies do not equal reality. Edited by - Sheldon on 12/27/2010 9:15:46 AM
Hello? Most straight men do not want to watch two men go at it. It isn't so much a matter of homophobia as it is the fact that straight men are straight. Now it's possible that a woman might want to see a bisexual orgy with two men and one woman or something but I would guess those women are pretty rare judging by the fact that most women want nothing to do with bisexual men (and I should know). People watch what turns them on. Some men who would consider themselves straight might get a voyeuristic thrill out of bisexual male action in porn but I would guess it wouldn't be many.Ridiculous. Edited by - randomprecision on 12/27/2010 6:35:57 AM Edited by - randomprecision on 12/27/2010 6:38:03 AM
Hello? Most straight men do not want to watch two men go at it. It isn't so much a matter of homophobia as it is the fact that straight men are straight. Now it's possible that a woman might want to see a bisexual orgy with two men and one woman or something but I would guess those women are pretty rare judging by the fact that most women want nothing to do with bisexual men (and I should know). People watch what turns them on. Some men who would consider themselves straight might get a voyeuristic thrill out of bisexual male action in porn but I would guess it wouldn't be many. ______________________________ And what the reason of this in general?!! These standards! Also it is absolute lie that isn't a lot of women who want bisex with 2 guys. Certainly, them would be more if standards weren't imposed that male-male sex it is bad because this say their homophobic men! TV Serials where there are gay-couples and gay-kisses, any male-male sensuality make mad success because it is pleasant to young girls. And what about phenomenons as Slash and Yaoy? You purposely try to deny the obvious! It is convenient to you. To justify double standards and continue to impose them.
Rosco Fuji, You want to say, that unique possibility to resolve this problem it is simply ban any pornography. Isn't it? Ban on pornography is exist in some countries of Northern Europe, for example. I think that is not unique possibility.
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jobe55 Deactivated User
27 Posts 12/10
Posted - Dec 27 2010 : 5:27PM
Rocco Siffredi's success disproves all your theories and prejudices. Rocco is the biggest porn star, male or female, in America. His videos are always hot sellers. In almost all his movies, Rocco has a small amount of male-male contact, such as when Cristian Devil rubbed his penis on Rocco's foot. He continues to sell big. So much for your theory about male-male contact scaring the porn-viewing male. Honestly, I think some of your attitudes are stuck in the 1950's.
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - Dec 27 2010 : 10:22PM
I have no idea what you are saying!
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - Dec 27 2010 : 10:24PM
But the question to ask is, how was the guy doing it? Was it all a joke, or was the guy really turned on by Rocco's foot?
I don't trust men who don't like big tits. 1067 Posts 12/04
Posted - Dec 28 2010 : 2:29AM
Got some good laughs from this. I'll have to go back and re-read and see if the op actually said what his sexuality is, but if he's bi I hope he doesn't tell people one of the reasons why is "...because Sigmund said..." Also it seems duke has a hard on for making all men "wake up" and embrace their supposed latent homosexuality. Yo why is that so important to you? Do you get a free ipod if you get 20 guys to sign up for the bi-sexual plan?
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jobe55 Deactivated User
27 Posts 12/10
Posted - Dec 28 2010 : 6:05PM
Rosco Fuji wrote: "But the question to ask is, how was the guy doing it? Was it all a joke, or was the guy really turned on by Rocco's foot?" Rosco, there was nothing comedic about it from the participants' viewpoint as far as I could tell. In the scene, Rocco is lying on the floor having sex with a woman, his legs perched up on the couch. Cristian Devil is sitting on the couch fondling the same woman. At one point, he taps his penis on Rocco's foot. It would seem to me that European straight-identifying men are able to interact physically with another male without it compromising their perception of themselves. Maybe American men are like that too - witness the Jackass movie series with all its male-male contact - but the American porn world refrains from it for some reason. Edited by - jobe55 on 12/28/2010 6:06:23 PM
With all due respect, maybe you should get out into the real world a little more. You're trying to prove how people look at real-life bisexual encounters based on their perception of fantasy settings such as Yaoi and the occasional homoerotic overtones in TV shows? Seriously? In response to somebody (RP) who actually has real-life experience with that, no less... The fact that some 17-year-old girl might be reading slash fanfics about the Winchester brothers doesn't imply she's just dying to see Johnny and Carlos from her high school geography class to go at it for real. File this thread under "Single-issue obsessives say the darndest things", I suppose... Edited by - shalalin on 12/28/2010 7:33:27 PM
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jobe55 Deactivated User
27 Posts 12/10
Posted - Dec 28 2010 : 8:29PM
I think the porn industry has failed to move with the times. Perhaps it's not surprising. It's a very conservative industry. Its depictions of human sexuality are designed to accommodate the fantasies and fetishes of men who describe themselves as straight. Thus, visual depictions of male-male sexuality are generally segregated whereas female-female sexuality is included in most porn movies that contain both genders. Some of the major supporters of the bisexual double standard are studios like Digital Playground, Vivid and Wicked. These studios are run by exceedingly conservative individuals. In a sense, I think porn's women are partly to blame. Many of them are exceptionally homophobic towards male-male sexuality. It's ironic that a bisexual woman would be homophobic about a bisexual man. These women are laughably hypocritical.
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - Dec 28 2010 : 10:48PM
None of you have a clue on this issue. It's all about Niches. There's a whole category that focuses on guy on guy contact. It's called gay porn. Just like there's 100 other categories in porn; Wet tits, wet asses, cumfarts, bukakkes, etc. If you rent a Big Wet Tits release, you're expecting Big Wet Tits, and the last thing I want to see is Tony Homo getting it from behind by the defense. As far as porn girls not liking guy on guy contact, says who? Plenty of main stream popular girls do guy on guy bi scenes. Case in Point: http://www.group-facials.com/cumeatingcockholds/jynxmaze/site.html Edited by - rosco fuji on 12/28/2010 11:10:23 PM
Speaking only for myself and my porn consumption: I consider myself a heterosexual male. There is some neutral sexuality present in me, because I do like some transexual porn, but only if the TS's are very feminine. I am not interested in seeing male homosexuality in my pornography. I have absolutely zero problem with gay men, but I do not find it sexually stimulating and in fact, it actively turns me off in pornography. It just isn't my thing. The so called borderline things like DPPs and such also don't bother me, but I also don't search them out, more due to the fact that circus sex like this again, isn't my thing. So there you go, I would hardly consider myself one of those "Keep that gay shit away" or "That's so gay" kind of guys, but it still doesn't change the fact that I do not want to see it in my pornography. I think there is a place for porn like that, but the vast majority don't seem to want this kind of material.
The porn industry moves wherever there is money to be made. Look what happened after X-Play proved there was money to be made in parodies. Every company under the sun has now released one. Including several that had mostly focused on all sex titles prior. If there was money to be made, the titles would be there.
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jobe55 Deactivated User
27 Posts 12/10
Posted - Dec 29 2010 : 4:12PM
Flash, How much money is actually made by a regular straight porn movie? I've yet to see any figures. My understanding is that most straight porn movies sell very little. It's hardly a good business model. In any case, I've noticed a lot of bi cuckold-type movies from some of the studios. Of course, the conservative studios like Vivid, Digital Playground and Wicked will probably never get around to making them. It's probably "not their thing". jrsl, Who said you have to watch stuff you don't like? You can always choose or use the remote control. I also think it's arrogant of you to assume knowledge of what "most people want". There is no such thing as a free market in porn. I keep saying it over and over again: no such thing as a free market in porn. It's a chosen market, not a free one. Overall, I think the original poster is coming from the angle of the disparate treatments of female bisexuality versus male bisexuality by the major studios in porn. It's a fair enough jab. The major porn studios are bi male-phobic, bi female-friendly. Edited by - jobe55 on 12/29/2010 4:13:21 PM Edited by - jobe55 on 12/29/2010 4:18:04 PM
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Clams Deactivated User
173 Posts 12/10
Posted - Dec 29 2010 : 4:45PM
Only because most straight males won't buy bi/gay male stuff. How many times does this obvious fact have to be sobbed over?
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jobe55 Deactivated User
27 Posts 12/10
Posted - Dec 29 2010 : 7:07PM
Clams, Then why are straight men buying Rocco Siffredi's movies, almost all of which contain some fleeting male-male contact? Obviously they're not frightened by it. Maybe the real issue is the amount of it. If it's brief, I think most men will buy it. Rocco's shown that they do.
Whatever. Bottom line, look at the sales and rentals. There are gay and bi titles. If there was a huge demand, more would be produced. Clearly there isn't. As for the other comment, how can my speculation be arrogant, it's speculation? And fast forward? Fuck that. I'm not interested in watching it and therefore don't want it in my porn. I have no problem with mixed hetero/bi porn being available, but I not interested in buying it. I will buy what turns me on. I won't pay for what doesnt.
It seems that the OP (kvitka) is obsessed with the idea that straight men should just accept what his heroes (Freud and Kinsey) thought about sexuality as being the absolute gospel. Just because Freud said we are all born bisexual doesn't make it so. And I don't know where you got the number that 48% of men are gay. It also might help if you got someone more fluent in English to express your thoughts. I don't know why people have to politicize porn. Just because the majority of consumers are straight men who don't have any interest in gay male porn, it doesn't mean they are homophobic. Are we also scatophobic, since we don't embrace that genre either? I've not heard of any violence against gay performers, or attempts to interfere with their filmmaking. As someone pointed out, if they combined the two industries in one event it would take 10 hours.
Hmmm ... Everybody considers it perfectly normal when guys are interested in lesbian porn; however the girls do not have the right to be interested in gay porn. Isn’t it evident that girls like sex between two men as well? After all, we like to contemplate man's body. We are attracted to it. However, both gay and bi porn are taboo as of now. Why is it? The answer is simple and succinct. Because of the patriarchy. Only this mythical patriarchy, invented by dork-hetero,. Why are the porn studios owners think only about the pleasure of men? What about us, girls? Why we are not allowed? It's as simple as that. The male body is an object of girls desire. So why are we not allowed to like gay porn? Why there is only lesbian porn? I love my body and I find it very attractive and appealing. But! This does not mean that I am going salivate over lesbian porn. No! I’m not in the least interested in female body. What do we have in the straights-porn industry? It imposes the idea of the girls bisexual without any exceptions. Why? Where in hell that idea came from? Does not it imply that guys should be bisexual as well? Here the mystery comes. Mystery that is deeply hidden from us. Guys do not have the right to be bisexual. Just like that. Why? Why is it so? Did not you know? If they are bisectual then they will be immediately called "sissys", "broads”. That's it. That’s the way the “machos” call the conformists, "broads". There are a lot of girls who dream about having sex with two guys. No, not heterosexual and bisexual. Hetero men are in rage when they hear this. Isn’t it obvious that evrything must be different! He’s alone with two chicks. Why is that? And here again we are looking at that horrible word "patriarchy". It never occurred to the porn studios owners that they can profit from more gay and bi-porn. Actually not any bi porn but the one that represents two guys and a girl. And not vice versa.
I would love to watch following videos: 2 guys caress each other for me and then invite me. Anyway, a lot of girls would be dying to watch such a video. But nobody makes it...
I read something in a book a while back that I found really insightful and helpful when thinking about porn and its "genres." In a nutshell, they said that porn genres such as "straight" or "gay" do not dictate the content of the film nor the content/bounds of the viewer's fantasies. In this way, it's more instructive to view porn genres as a sort of simplistic label, or even alibi, within which a viewer is able to indulge in the whole spectrum of their sexuality. That's why there's a huge difference between buying "straight" porn where two guys "accidentally" touch each other, and a flick that's labeled "gay" that involves men touching each other. Wish I could remember the exact way they put it, and who the writer was...
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Clams Deactivated User
173 Posts 12/10
Posted - Dec 30 2010 : 3:35PM
Most guys are 100% straight. They buy porn to see hot babes. They don't hope to get a glimpse of mope ass. There is no continuum except in the imagination of the liberal elite, and maybe 10% of the population.
Well, one issue I've always had with that argument is why then, if straight men only like to see women, are there such fetishes involving big dicks, multiple dicks fucking one girl, cum shots, etc. I mean, god, why do "straight" men love watching other dudes cum?
Gay porno has is disproportionate a high share of the market. It is obvious that not only gay guys watch these videos. =))) And I am compelled to repeat that I dont force anybody to masturbate on gay sex. but award ceremonies must be under ONE BRAND. Because it is segregation and marginalisation male-male sexuality from human sexuality. Someone tries to convince me that girls don't watch a gay porno, and most guys there are 100% hetero. LOLS. You deny it obvious and don't want to see change and also don't want to do change. All know why was created a ghetto as GayVN.
You can not doubt that very many people have paid attention to this theme already. Why Madonna and Britney Spears have right to kiss in 2003, but Adam Lambert has no right to kiss a guy in 2009. Why?
Don't flatter yourself with your keen knowledge of people's psyches. I'd agree that people are not born "straight" or "gay;" that sexual preferences are socialized in the first 3-5 years of life and that people cannot control their socializing because it's done at such an early age in life, but no research has ever shown that a large percentage of people who identify as "heterosexual" have secret "homosexual urges any more than a large percentage of people who identify as "homosexual" harbor secret "heterosexual" urges. And here's a question for the friend-group of Kvitka/Karla/Adora (but not Jobe): why aren't you criticizing the gay porn industry for not including straight sex scenes? Is that different from the absence of male/male scenes in "straight" porn? Or are "homosexual" men absolved from having to see naked women in their smut? Edited by - john lyons on 12/30/2010 6:29:23 PM
As already noted, I don't believe in clear-cut sexual identities. They're cultural constructs developed to neatly package the big mess of human sexuality into manageable categories (of which only two are really popularly accepted as "real"). This does not mean that everyone secretly finds everyone sexually attractive, it just means that the majority of people don't have neat and tidy pre-packaged sexualities. When people throw around statements like "100% heterosexual," once I've stopped giggling I think to myself, what does that even mean? What would 100% heterosexual look like? What sex acts and contexts would that involve? Anyway, this thread/agenda is getting pretty ridiculous. I'm genuinely on the OP's side regarding many core issues being raised, but the rhetoric, and groups/people/sites being blamed for heteronormativity are way off base and don't encourage any kind of real, rational discussion.
Thank you, John.=) I study psychology at State University. There are a lot theories about sexuality=)) This is just one of them. About researches - A. Kinsey and many others. Especially I like the researches spent at university of Georgia where homofobic men was excited at gay porno viewing, but after experiment they denied it. And bisexuality it is NOT inclination 50-50 =) "why aren't you criticizing the gay porn industry for not including straight sex scenes?" This industry is one gender paradigm, this industry not imposes double standards on human sexuality (especially when this industry intentionally forced out from mainstream). Personally me won't faint at the sight of the naked woman. I would like that there was no any pornography, i say it from the bottom of my heart! Here I speak only about award segregation. It is obvious that it is unreasonable and caused only by biases. And why dont ask straight girls about lesbi-scenes in "straight" porn? This has been simply imposed to them. If this only for straight men, Then let this award be renamed to "Porn for straight men VN". This genre represents only male heterosexual interests. Not Adult! Am I not Adult? Happy New Year, by the way!
Edited by - kvitka on 12/30/2010 8:03:43 PM
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - Dec 30 2010 : 9:00PM
Point of reference, its the target of the cum we're focusing on.
