For me while Porn can produce some great films like The Fashionistas. The market is over saturated, most products are look alikes, extreme stuff is not sexy at all and all the techonolgical plus that came with the internet are showing their negative sides.
Has porn become like its bloated Hollywood brother and only capable of producing great work rarely than consistently ??
What is going to change as we say in football "a bore 0-0 draw", into an exciting pulsating game.
Personally, I think there's always gonna be a large amount of redundancy n porn. Perhaps your disenchantment has more to do with your personal over-saturation than anything else.
Honestly, the only trend that I've really noticed is that more and more movies seem to be trying to get more "extreme" with some of the acts. It seems that a good portion of porn these days can be classified as borderline voluntary abuse. To each his own, I suppose, but I think there's a certain amount of escalating irresponsibility on the part of many porn makers today.
I think a lot could be done with adult films to make things less redundant, however, despite suggestions by ADT and other places, this isn't really happening. There's a lot more I would like done that I never see, or rarely see. Too much focus is put on certain things within each genre and that's it. For this reason, I hardly ever buy any DVDs.
All parties play into the quaintly over quality problem. Most people focus on the producers of porn but that is a bit simplistic.
Consumers have to realize every time they pressure producers or studios for their next project when their latest project is only 30 minutes old, that adds to the problem. No one can come up with great work in such a short time (consistently).
When consumers say they wanna see something different but ask for more and more of the same, that adds to the problem. Most studios and producers would take risk if they weren't afraid it will be rejected.
Also, don't underestimate the effect of the declining video buyer. Everyone wants to see porn, but fewer and fewer wish to buy it. Increasingly people wish to rent, (Studios do not get royalties on store rentals) borrow porn or steal porn. The effect; each title is worth less, re-orders are slower so many try to make it up in volume. i think this approach is ultimately counter productive and won't work for long. Hence this thread and subject is coming up more and more.
Lastly, consumers should go outside of the major studio system. Independent porn companies and directors will lead this industry into more creative sexual expression just like independent film companies do for the main stream films.
OK, I know that there are people out there who think that I’m intellectualizing too much and that my contributions are too long. So if it bothers you, just skip it.
One could argue that in the 70s, the porn business was a bit more careful about what they were putting on the market. Overall I think it has just been a natural evolution from there. In the beginning, porn people tried to mimic mainstream movies in their approach, but over the years a more commercial, simple truth has made its way into their minds about the reasons you reach success, seeing that in fact it didn’t requer any technical skill to achieve respectable sales. When you see a guy like Stagliano, he was a solid feature director and suddenly he made The Adventures of Buttman. I would have had nothing against Buttman, as long as it had remained a provocative experiment.
I’m gonna try a risky comparison. Maybe some of you know Marcel Duchamp. OK, he’s a French artist but his fame exceeds the borders of France. In the early 20th century, Duchamp became famous for a kind of satirical works that he called the “Readymades”. The first Readymade was actually a toilet bowl that he put in the middle of an exhibition hall. That was just that. But the concept was beyond the only object. It meant that the creative dimension could be defined by other means that the usual standards of technique and beauty. And more of this, the art was not the object itself, but the concept of provocation behind the object. Now maybe stuff like Buttman could be seen as something like that. It was a provocative piece of work that rocked the standards of adult movies.
The problem is that Stagliano (and Duchamp as well, which proves that porners are not worse or better than anyone else) soon started overflowing the market with that kind of products, only returning to quality works sporadically. And when Stagliano did it big time with Fashionistas, you could read between the lines that he acted in part to restore himself as a true director, in his own mind as much as in others’. The point of Buttman has just become more and more empty over the years. Doing something in a more basic way than others can be groundbreaking in the beginning, but when you do it for too long, people (and probably the inventor of the concept himself) forget about the original value of the series, focusing instead on the simplicity and the easy money. It was not provocative anymore, not creative anymore, with clones popping every week. The greatest gonzo director had to go back to feature to make something else valuable out of his career, at least once. I’m sure there was a certain need for self esteem behind that project. And, since porn is a business that deals with art only in its higher spheres, lots of people only kept in mind the lowest dimension of gonzo: that porn watchers are just manic masturbators that won’t care about production values and just want the biggest amount of sex available.
The only Buttman that I watched was Buttman in The Crack because I thought that the concept seemed creative. It turned out crap. I have never rented a movie for the cast alone. I’ve seen a pure gonzo movie just once knowing in advance it would be gonzo. That was Perverted POV #3 by Mike John, which was actually quite funny although not memorable. But now that I’ve seen one movie of this kind, I don’t feel the need to rent another one.
If the majority of watchers don’t want to punish the makers of those crappy films, why would it all stop? In porn, you will find just what you are looking for. If you’re looking for easy wankable stuff, you’ll find it. If you’re looking for more thought provoking work, you’ll find it as well. But for those who adopt the easier approach of quantity towards quality, they better assume it til the end with its cortege of gloomy consequences, and for instance not cry for the fact that girls come and go before being thrown away like hygienic towels. Some of the aforementioned folks still seem to regret it though. From time to time they have a peak of lucidity. Or let's rather say that for a split second reality shatters a corner of their numb, idylic world made of countless flexible, speechless gonzo girls. But it remains a world of images, there are no consequences whatsoever and it's very well like that. It’s more like “Wow man, I’ve all the Ultimate Buttfuck videos from 1 to 76, and I regret real bad that we don't get to see Krisztina Dynamite from UB 12 anymore. Damn is that tough that girls can't have a solid career in porn today!”.
Come on guys. I've seen that there was even one video a couple of years ago where you have some Eastern babe shooting a scene with part of one finger that seems to have been cut off not very long before. She still wears thick medical bandages around the extremity of her severed finger. It looks like the director/interviewer vaguely asks her about it on tape, to which she aswers briefly with some trivial and elusive remark probably supposed to tone down the viewer's unease, then it doesn't restrain him from shooting her right there, shortly afterwards. I can't help finding that a bit sordid.
It all comes to the same problem of market logic. The fact is that sex is the most powerful pulsion within most of us. When you put an adult DVD in your player, you will reach for the sex scenes immediatly, simply because it’s what you tend to naturally. So why bother even taking care of the rest? Even if you had the most spectacular movie on a DVD at home, something captivating like The Rock, Die Hard or whatever... Somebody tells you that actually there’s a sex scene lost in the middle of it. Well, you won’t care anymore about the well crafted action and you’ll immediately reach fo the sex scene chapter, jack off, and then only maybe you’ll watch the rest. So some might do themselves a favor and question their self esteem once in a while, just like Stagliano, Siffredi or Leslie do everytime they finally produce a good movie. Viewers trade a bit of self sex against a bit of self esteem, and promote quality stuff. Even if your fantasy if rough sex, there are good films with relatively rough sex. Solid movies don’t mean tame sex, unless your standards are really those of a freakshow.
Now a good mean to upgrade artificially the quality of porn would be if the some of the biggest and most quality oriented labels on the market regrouped to form a pool. Having the big stars and the products appealing to the largest audience, they could maybe pressure distributors and video stores, like: if you buy only movies from our pool, we’ll establish a priviledged commercial relationship with you, that kind of stuff. That would help to wipe out the weaker companies. The concurrence would still exist, except mostly between big names, and the makers of the lower crap would be put to rest. But of course it’s only a dream, and there are so many individual interests around that this will never happen. Plus there are laws against that kind of abuse of a dominant market position. Still in the case of the porn business, I think it wouldn’t do any harm to the viewer.
Another thing that would be cool, although I don’t see it happening in the US (maybe in a more liberal European country) would be that the Ministry of Culture establishes a distinction between pornographic products for wanking purpose, and pornographic products with a more obvious creative (or sometimes politic) value. It slightly exists in France, where for example movies like Baise Moi (for those who have heard of it) or Romance are not rated X and are still approved for screening in just any cinema along with the likes of Terminator 3 or Lost in Translation. This concept should be extended. In Europe, works of art are often strongly supported by the state and you can ask for helps from special funds to budget your movies. Baise Moi, Romance, that trend of films were in part funded by the state in the name of cultural exhaustiveness. Also, some erotic movies shot for TV are state-supported. You have to do a presentation of your project before a commission which then allows you money.
If straight-to-video adult directors would also be allowed to present their own project, and highlight its cultural value or message, it would be nice. That would not necessarily kill projects which don’t receive state fundings, and at least that would help the most ambitious ones. For example a movie like Bad Wives would certainly be recognized as valuable work of art under such criterias. Some Leslies would be acknowledged as well despite their greater shock value and relative nastyness. The best works would obtain advantages such as partial tax exonerations or the right to a larger diffusion than basic porn.
Unfortunately, even in France that’s very unlikely to happen now that the reactionaries are in place. Actually it was that corrupt bastard Chirac who was responsible for France’s restrictive laws towards porn in the 70s as a Minister. And now he’s President. Whereas under the left wing, there was an Erotica and Pornography Convention that was organized in cooperation with the Ministry of Culture. The Minister at that time was very cool and supportive towards porn (he was gay so maybe that helps to keep an open mind). But now for specific social reasons that I won’t develop here (thankfully you might say), pornography is facing more and more criticism.
Still if a director like Mason held the speeches that she holds in the US right now, she would be interviewed by all sorts of serious magazines outside the porn community. Not that she would automatically receive rave reviews because the movies in themselves don’t seem that far away from typical gonzo in terms of production values, but at least numerous mags would interview her once to let her discuss her position.
Still, for now and for several decades to come, nobody will freely discuss the merits of pornographic material outside the porn community itself, and a cultural elite that varies in size depending on the part of the world you’re living in.
Waiting for a wider recognition to come and to upgrade the quality standards of porn, you have nothing currently left except to act yourself and stay quality conscious as a porn buyer. Good things happen when another logic than the purely economic one is at work. A user who says “Let’s primarily pick movies with a good dollar/wankability ratio” is no better than the director who made those films. The same way a user who keeps renting movies from directors he suspects to have a questionable work ethic towards the non-stop flow of new girls they have based their whole career on (i.e. Woodman) is responsible. People who put the wellness of their talent below their own achievements are just as symptomatic of that spiral of carelessness and jungle law policies. So don’t bring your masturbating sessions to the same level of primary economical logic, too. Don’t stop thinking as soon as you enter the adult section of your video store. It’s not about wanting more quality, it’s about promoting the little quality that’s still there. Or already there, if you remain optimistic. It’s not because sex is a pulsion that you also have to lose your brain when you select your sex flicks. But I’m probably just another asshole who has to see moralistic points everywhere.
The porn business isn't all that different than mainstream in that "great" films are few and far between. In mainstream you only get about a half dozen really great movies a year, and in porn you get about two or three really great movies a year.
I watched "Heart of Darkness" a few weeks ago, and while it didn't have the budget of a "Fashionistas", I thought it was pretty well put together...
You make many interesting points in your lengthy post. You mentioned the movie Romance by Catherine Breillat. What has been the reaction to her new movie "Anatomie de l'Enfer" that stars Rocco Siffredi? Is it getting good reviews, and have you seen it yourself?
Here in the US, Romance was released with an NC-17 rating, meaning that it could be shown in regular movie theaters. A French art film like this is only shown in special theaters that show foreign films anyway, where the viewing public is more open-minded and not likely to complain to the government or to the theater owners about a movie's content. The movie is also available in its original French version on DVD.
I see that Breillat gets funding from the French Cinematographers Society, which I suppose gets funding from the French government, so in this oblique way the French taxpayers are supporting some very explicit movie-making. Something that will never happen in the US; besides, we don't have a goverment-supported film institute.
You offer some interesting arguments, but I simply have other opinions towards porn. While I agree that is can be art, just as pretty much anything can, porn is not something I watch for a cinematic experience.
I had a friend once, who wanted to see a porn film, with a plot and acting on the same quality level as a mainstream film, with the exception that when the usually-token lovemaking scene came up, that it was hardcore, and then the movie resumed afterwards in all other ways.
Myself though, I watch porn for it's base purpose, with no pretense towards art, acting, story etc.. on a technical level, I simply want it to be well-lit, well dressed, and well performed by attractive people. My own opinion has always been, and will remain, that if I want to watch a film with good acting and a well-written story, and so forth, I've got plenty of (too many) mainstream films to spend my time watching rather then watching poorly-acted porn. And even if the porn was "well acted" I honestly would rather keep the two genres seperate for myself, since when I'm in the mood for or trying to watch one I'm not interested in being distracted by the other.
This doesn't mean I'm going to avoid features totally, or "artistically shot" porn (ie Adamo), but it does mean that most of my purchases fall into "gonzo" or probably more appropriately "wall-to-wall" with just a token set up between sex scenes, and that when I watch my Adamo films, I'll be appreciating the nice costumes and quality cinematography as I ship from sex scene to sex scene, over the "story" and dialogue.
A few more words about Baise Moi: it first got an Under 16 rating, and then went Under 18. Under 18 was actually invented just for it. It was under the pressure of religious fundamentalists who were shocked that minors were able to see it and were too happy making a fuss about it. Before that, a movie was either rated Under 16 or X. The right wing government was willing to satisfy the moral majority and disallow younger people to see Baise Moi, still in France the pressure from the intellectual community is traditionally very strong and people wouldn’t have tolerated that it was regarded as a simple X movie, even if they didn’t always like the movie themselves. So the recent Under 18 label is quite like your NC-17. It is for rough films that are nonetheless not considered as exploitative, but authentic intellectual efforts. Also to close this chapter, in France there exists no distinction like NC-17 towards R.
Now, to be honest with you, I’m seeing movies primarily as an enjoyment. They can be tought provoking, still they have to be exciting to watch. I apply this rule to all movies. I keep myself away from movies that only look socially redeeming, because most of the times (especially in France where movie makers don’t have any culture of entertainment) they quickly turn out to be boring pictures about dull people with a not-so-subtle lefty subtext. In France, intellectual means socialist intellectual. It’s all the same kind of people who rule our cultural life. It can be good occasionally that they have a lot of weight because they are eager defenders of individual liberties, but on the other hand they control most of the cultural press, movie schools, journalist schools, and almost all universities. So that when you watch a movie made by a people with that kind of profile, you know quite well for what ride you’re in, and their movies are often more predictable than the so-called formated genre movies they despise. Those have at least one decent plot twist. I won’t be watching Breillat’s work only for the sexual outrage, while I know that I will have to go through a bitter and painful, biased but also caricatural depiction of society for most of the movie. Even with a tormented sex life, characters from French indy movies remain boring characters. The fact that they are boring but sometimes have perverse sexual impulse doesn’t change much for me. I could go on about this for hours but it would bring us very far from the porn subject, although there are many interesting implications on the way French intellectuals have influenced our vision of sex.
So, I like porn as any other genre movie. I have to be riveted. Wall to wall action is fine to me, I’m not necessarily demanding for a big plot. Everyone has his own strengths. But there has to be a minimum of talent, personality, tempo (can be through editing, story or even roughness, that’s the director’s choice) and production values. Then if the artist manages to induce a political/philosophical message in addition to those primary requirements, fine. For example, even if it has nothing to do with pornography, I recommand seeing a Korean movie named 2009: Lost Memories, which is at the same time a hardcore action movie but manages to tell us a very strong message (even objectionable at certain times).
On the other side, Breillat’s style simply does not appeal to me. I understand that some people may find it interesting. Actually, I would probably like to discuss with a woman the ideas that are exposed in the movie. But to sit through a film showing you that in slow paced, auteuristic details... No thanks. I like my porn best when it is arousing or intriging, but it has to be at least a little punchy. I don’t mean rough. Anal or no anal, ATM or no ATM, I don’t mind, the fact that this is porn doesn’t mean that I don’t have to abandon myself to the director’s will like everybody accepts to do when he watches a mainstream movie. My only limit being: I want my share of fun and fast paced action as I would like to find in any other brand of movies. Knowing French cinema, most of all French social cinema, I had the feeling that Breillat’s work was not gonna deliver the goods in such matters. I wrote about Bad Wives in my previous post. Well, take the living room scene w/ Dough and Lauren in this film. Dough gives his cumshot, he begins to walk away, but Lauren grabs him and says something like (I don’t have the movie at hand): You came but I didn’t. And you’re not gonna leave until you’ve done your work. So the scene continues and he has to caress her to orgasm before he is allowed to leave. You also have a fabulous POV shot from the couple’s kid who watches his parents have an argument from behind the window of his room. It manages to turn the restriction of not showing kids in adult movies to its advantage by showing us a different perspective at a couple’s sex/love life. And otherwise, the film is still captivating, sexy and witty.
Having had the occasion to hear Catherine Breillat speak, in my opinion she represents a very militant and relentless side of feminism that owes too much to hardcore leftism to interest me. Sorry.
Now for the few hints I can give you on Anatomie de l’Enfer:
Re-employing Siffredi was not well perceived by the press who thought that it was not a great proof of integrity, more like an easy gimmick from a supposed auteur like Breillat to once again use a big commercial name like Siffredi after the initial hype caused by Romance. It was pointed several times (by male critics) that there was something strange in Breillat’s relationship with Siffredi, and that she must have kept hiring him to fullfil some more personal fantasies through her work. I wasn’t too sure what to think about those ironical remarks coming from men. I thought it was a bit of a male chauvinist argument to dismiss a daring female director by understating that she might do this to compensate frustrations and get a closer touch at her fantasies of Siffredi’s sexual performances. OK, maybe her movies are connected with sexual frustrations, but from there say that she chose Siffredi for personal purpose, I think it’s not very respectful and it’s quite a simplistic way to mock Breillat’s look at sexuality.
Rocco again had problems with the lead female protagonist (this time confirmed comedian Amira Casar) who was very scornful and despised him openly on set. Now for Anatomie the main actress didn’t do anything sexual and had insert shots filmed with a body double for the sex scenes, who I don’t think was any famous porn performer.
However, I won’t comment on the film specifically, since I have only seen excerpts. It looks very dark, maybe more than Romance. Having also seen images from Romance, I had been seized by their crudeness, and naturalism. Here it looks like there is an even deeper focus on dark tones, haunting ambiance and a harsh photography. The ideas of inititiation and domination are also there but pain and torment seem pushed to a paroxysm with strong moments of self inflicted suffering, which exceed the reflection on pulsions that could be seen in the first. Well, it is self inflicted in the sense that she first attracts Rocco to cause her severe humiliations, before Rocco gets himself turned upside down by the experience. The movie seemed even more pessimistic from the few highlights I could see and what I heard of it. I don’t know if it was also the case in Romance, but I’ve heard that in this one Rocco has a scene where he breaks down and shed tears. I was also impressed to see how many women journalists were so deeply shocked by the movie. Of course, on TV everybody wanted Rocco for ratings purpose and Breillat herself was nowhere to be seen. Nevertheless, several female reviewers seemed to directly recriminate Siffredi for the tone of the movie. There was no distance in their commentaries between choices that were obviously made by the director, and Siffredi himself, making it obvious at times that they were just angry at him because he still represented in their eyes pornography and its many abuses. He was so badly perceived as a porn icon, that his character’s fictitious deeds seemed constantly interlocked with the violence and abuses towards women which characterize porn in collective consciousness.
I was rather disappointed by that, with the feeling that both male and female critics had their own bunch of very stereotyped remarks about the movie or its crew, which proves that both men and women can be equally narrow minded when it comes to controversial subjects (each in their own style).
If you like Breillat’s stuff, maybe you should have a look at Une Vraie Jeune Fille (A Real Young Girl). It was made in her youth (no Siffredi at the time) but I think there were some problems surrounding its original release. Anyway, it benefited from quite a large distribution after the success of Romance. That early piece of film doesn’t look as dark and immediately gloomy as Romance or Anatomie, still it leaves a bitter taste and doesn’t spare you many details of the young girl’s intimacy. You can see her taking a piss, etc... It’s just another kind of initiation, less borderline and openly trashy, more sadly trivial but likely to cause some discomfort as well. Actually showing sex in hardcore details during mainstream films has become something of a trend in France lately, pushed by that new wave of lefty naturalists. There is also a film called “Le Pornographe” which is, as the title says, about a porn filmmaker and has at least one explicit scene. It is directed in a much more academic style, though.
IAFD, supporters of beastiality. Just say no. 7564 Posts 11/02
Posted - Feb 29 2004 : 4:46PM
Gotta be honest here — and to keep the peace I will add nothing more to this thread. The limitations put upon 'art' or 'artistitic expression' in this thread make me sick. The lack of historical knowledge does the same thing. There is a difference between 'porn art' and art porn'.
Oh yes, on topic: Has porn reached its peak and is it now mediocre? Depends on who you ask and which normative interpretative framework is being used. I don't like to play those type of games, AT ALL. I don't believe in a teleological explanation of history.
Hardware said: "As far as I'm concerned, pussy and ass are a matched set." (Damn, I just checked. I only have one of them.)
[Link]
Darth-Morpheous Deactivated User
1701 Posts 3/02
Posted - Feb 29 2004 : 10:06PM
I have been watching porn for over 10 years now and I think it is about 10,000 times better now than it was when I first started. I used to watch older movies from the 70s then the garbage from the 80s. The stuff now is pretty close to perfection in my opinion.
I'd like to second what Darth-Morpheous said and say that porn in my opinion is better than it's ever been. I started watching porn back in the mid 80's and remember how bad especially from a technical standpoint it was. Movies shot on film were flat and grainy and movies shot on video had a fuzzy, tinted picture. Nowdays, thanks to improvments in video cameras the picture is a 1000 times better. Directors are also more talented and innovative. And the talent pool has grown and gotten better. Back in the 80's I had one or two favorites who I'd buy a tape for e.g. Ginger Lynn, Hyapatia Lee, but now there are at least a dozen stars for whom I'd pick up a video. And then there's the great leap forward in technology with DVD's. To me this is a second golden age.
porn is better. when i rent older tapes i see nothing but garbage. dont get me wrong, theres alot of garbage out there. buy from good directors & good companies & you get what you want.
I agree with much of what GuiM has posted here, at length, so I will not reiterate what has already been said.
However, I will say this much: it is very easy to romanticize the past when it comes to films. Everybody has a favourite period of film, and as time goes by it is very tempting to say "They don't make them like that anymore". But then somebody does, and you are blown away.
The porn industry is not that much different, except it is appealing to a niche market, but it otherwise has the same people watching it. It is very easy, after watching for a long time, to get jaded with the industry and think they are not offering anything new. But as GuiM says:
The analogy I like to use is this: if you were stuck in the desert and dying of thirst, and someone came up to you with boot-polish or gasoline, you'd chose one. Neither are ideal, but you are dying of thirst. Same as the film/porn industries - you chose from what there is on offer. The discerning viewer will DEMAND something better, and it is up to consumers to make sure the industry keeps US interested. We are keeping them up, not the other way around (although... :)). Especially in a direct market such as this.
As it stands, the adult DVD industry has some of the BEST DVDs around, and the mainstream could learn a lot. However, we - as consumers - are still in charge. We have to remember that, and not be "content" with stuff you may think is "mediocre".
(Oh, and just a side-note on Baise-Moi: It was rated-R (18+ by the Australian classification board, but as the result of a couple of letters, it was reviewed and reclassified RC (Refused Classification, or in other words - banned). Seems here, the views of the minority outweigh the vast majority who had chosen/not chosen to see it in the weeks prior to that. Ken Park had a similar story here. We have an X category, but that is almost purely for porn as it does not allow violence in that category. Fetish movies are not allowable at all. I should also add, X is only really available in certain areas to buy over the counter, and that is not in the major cities).
GuiM, please let the artists (read: filmakers) live in their ivory tower, thank you so much
having almost none 'historical porn' knowledge i can only talk about what i came across in the last eight years. With the rise of the german GGG label, series like gag-factor & slap happy, websites like meath0les.com and bukkake becoming a major fetish for the masses modern porn production hits a new alltime low for me. don't get me wrong i luv hardcore but vulgarity and violence are disgusting to me. Sex should have style!
where there is shadow, there is light, for example some of these french Dorcel flicks are special in a way even spoiled me enjoys: pretty actors, awesome wardrobes, breathtaking locations, intense sex and well done lightning plus sleazy muzax some lazy producers should take a look and try to copy for their features, there's also much room for improvment, did i say scripts? don't say the talents won't remember the text, they will be more than happy to be part of something cool. i bet you all know the ingredients, just do it! the audience will follow (or even expand), so will the money. a producer going the 'easy way' is always in danger to drown in the competition
one interesting development is that porn has become partly mainstream, especially during the last years porn became influential to mass media in a way never seen before. so a new, more pornophil generation is about to kick out some of the ressentiments a lot of older people still have to fight with.
also take in account that the masses just started to discover digital adult services, like satellite/cable channels and broadband internet. so it never was that easy to get your fav smut. when whole europe switched to digital tv systems i foresee a real peak in porn demand. this maybe a great chance for higher budget feature porn to set new standards. the big bang in europe is still to come.
to come to an end, i firmly believe those in the game who produce porn because of passion first and money second will always have the superior product.
Don't settle for mediocrity. do something special then feel special.
Little Puck Interview
Posted - Feb 27 2004 : 10:41PM
