I am sure there are exceptions to what the manufacturuers think, but for the most part I don't feel very valued as a consumer of these products. I do think the judgement is 'if you buy this crap you havn't got a real girl and you are a pathetic specimin'. These value judgements are akin to any old stereotype and by rights ought to have gone out the window years ago along with : 'Young people are irresponsible'. 'Black people are violent'. Women can't make strong decisions or be effective leaders' and a whole lot more.

Personally I don't think I'm pathetic. In fact I feel pretty good about myself and my situation in life, which is quite comfortable.

So I only care about what they think about me to the extent that it means they (not everyone, but a great many companies) consider it reasonable to keep churning out crap. It is not because of what they think about me personally.

Z.

Edited by - ziniaraya on 3/12/2004 1:48:26 PM

Edited by - ziniaraya on 3/12/2004 1:59:45 PM

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Let's remove gonzo from the equation for a sec -- I'll get back to that. The treatment of women as meat in those is appalling to me, but that's me, you and whoever else; a lot of men get off on it. I have my suspicions why - it's absurdly obvious, so let's move on to something more substantial and less depressing.

Now, float through the free-form with me for a while:
in a good, erotically charged mainstream movie, a sex scene advances the story. Let's take Basic Instinct , as an example. The first scene sets a tone as well as gives us insight into the Sharon Stone character. Nicely done. The scene where Mike Douglas takes Jeanne Tripplehorn hungrily and forcefully in her apartment gives us insight into his inner demons, as well as some important foreshadowing. It advances the plot, it's not (for the most part, but who cares?) gratuitous, and seems and feels necessary.

But is it hot? Hey, when Sharon had dude tied up, before she ice picked him, I was digging it, and that's not to mention the fact there was other bondage showed or alluded to, bisexual themes, and the entire psychology of sexuality as power and wielded as a weapon as undercurrents throughout the film.

It worked, for me, at least. The brain is the most important sexual organ, not the genitals. That's where adult film misses the mark for me. That's why I liked TonyC's Marie & Jack, it connects with you on a human level, not "here you sick fuck, here's degradation for degradation's sake, not erotic power exchange, not role-playing, not willful surrender, but physical and verbal abuse, on camera, for you to leer at and get even unhealthier attitudes towards your fellow humans." Or, yeah...

Making the sex scenes explicit in a movie like Basic Instinct would not have detracted from the film in any way for me. It would have worked , perhaps even improved it. The running time would have doubled or tripled, but hey, if I could've seen the lovely Ms. Tripplehorne give head, I'd have watched it for sixteen hours!

So, another mainstream movie with sex scenes advocate, eh? And the age old budget issue rears its ugly head, the less than stellar acting chops of the talent (no offense, that's not their job, but if some talented actors decided to go hardcore, I for one would NOT stigmatize them, but applaud them), the fact that stroke material is not WORTHY of good writing (that contempt thing -- come on, it's for these sick fucks to jerk to, who cares about the script?), and on and on.

Maybe that "think first, type later" concept has some merit. Where was I?

Oh -- define 'art' - OK. For me, art uplifts, honors, transcends, invokes thought, ... this is getting hard for my feeble brain. Much of adult film merely feeds rape fantasies. That can't be good for us.

And I don't find that particularly healthy or artistic. I'm not saying I don't occasionally find a Breakin' 'Em In scene worthy of rubbing one or a dozen out...but I feel vaguely soiled on the inside sometimes afterwards. I can rationalize it all I like - oh, it must be OK because hell, this is mainstream porno not something I had to ask for under the counter, this is what's out there, what's selling, people like it other than me, it can't be ALL BAD...but some of it really, truly is.

Where's the middle ground? Why is it the beautiful but antiseptic world of Andrew Blake or the physical and emotional wasteland of utter graphic vulgarity, degradation and misogyny?

When did the niche market of cute girls swallowing 37 loads and pretending to like it become the standard? I like a little rough stuff once in a while, but MAN -- if all I ate was hot dogs every day I'd be ready to nuke the hot dog factory. That's the way I feel about the porn industry at the moment. It's all hot dogs or eye candy and I want surf and turf and a nice burgundy. Something substantial!

I DESERVE GOOD PORN!

So, I'm making my own. Like TonyC, who had a vision and executed it very well, so I thought, I want sex to be part of the human experience, not this alien act I barely recognize that's totally outside the norm of healthy human interaction. Perhaps that's overstating the case, and in fact I do know of at least a few gals in adult who enjoy what they do the way it's being done; rough 'em up, they like it. That's great! But surely there's not a never-ending supply them. I'd have to imagine that most 18 year old girls are scarcely ready for industry vets to ream them like a chicken on a rotisserie and come away with a postive attitude about adult sexuality.

So, what am I making? I'm drawing it. Well, I'm getting my groove back on, anyway. I still haven't finished astromite's present (obscure reference...never mind).

I hope I can create something wherein the sex scenes advance the story, they're part of the plot, not asides from it or diversions. Not anime tentacle demon fucking, not schoolgirl rape, but sex scenes that have valid context and I hope are hotter for it because I want to engage your mind on a higher level than the lizard brain who grunts and sees hot hardbody and wants fuck -- ungh. That niche has been filled, my cup of that overfloweth a thousand times.

So, if I'm treated like a piece of shit who doesn't deserve the good stuff, then I'm exercising my right to ignore the studios' output completely. That contempt goes both ways. When someone comes along who cares about what they're doing, and makes it hot at the same time, SIGN ME UP! I know they're out there! Jules toes a line of edginess I like and attention to detail and aesthetics I can appreciate (and doesn't smack or spit on his costars or call them names), I have high hopes for the Guy Capo stuff I haven't seen yet, and I know there's more.

But this never-ending parade of fleshbots put through the paces and slapped together so some fucker can say "here's a little bitch getting her asshole torn up who eats loads out of a turkey baster-pay me"...ugh. UGH! Fuck you, too!

Guys who like what's out there have been served. PLENTY. Hot dogs every day. Put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig.

Free the good porn! Send me money so I can quit my job and make the good stuff for you! Just kidding. I don't have any illusions that anything I say makes a spit of difference. So...

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I like the harder edge porn just as much, if not more then the next viewer, but there are too many directors that think they have to gag the girls into submission to make their mark in the industry. You asked what you might be missing about what porn is now? I'll play devils advocate for a brief moment and will say perhaps many individuals already have fulfillment in their personal lives on some of the points you've brought up and turn to the boob tube for straight-forward, brutish, in your face porn. It is what it's always been.

When I get the chance, I'm a jaded, know-it-all with a DV camera amateurishly pointed at a beautiful girl, but at least I know to keep my movies locked in a dresser drawer. What excuses do they have?

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Brad Armstrong may not be Ridley Scott, but his work isn't amateurish. Paul Thomas is reviled around here, but he puts out a movie a year that's worth watching all the way through. Occasionally you will find a script where the sex scenes do move the plot along, and even help develop the characters. (I'll plug Improper Conduct again.)

Am I missing a point here? Seriously, isn't this an obvious place for you to turn? No teenagers getting torn up, no unrealistic circus acts, just adults acting like adults. And I loved Jeanne Tripplehorn too, but Devinn, Stormy, Ava Vincent and, back in the day, Kobe Tai look even better giving head, IMO.

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Broadly, I agree with what Mr Lyons is expressing and similar thoughts were behind my motivation for the thread I posted up earlier in the week (the thread called Beyond the Lost Hienie, through which the tumbleweed blew!). I think there's little doubt the average viewer is taken by the biz to be a total cretin, and the average female performer is rated little higher. I don't actually believe the content per se is the issue - more the attitudes behind it. However, while I should make it clear that I absolutely despise the way much contemporary porn at the low end of the scale is marketed, frankly I feel that some of the people who take themselves desperately seriously as "film makers", daaahling, are as responsible for holding their audience in contempt as the lowest-grade DV-cam merchant.

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This ain't new. It's been happening forever. It's why we started RAME and I suspect why ADT was started as well -- we, as consumers, need to watch each other's backs because the porn companies sure ain't gonna do it for us... and we need a place to do it.

As Brad said lo those many years ago -- and the words still echo today -- "An educated consumer is the porn industry's worst nightmare."

In the "good ole' days" it was starlets on the box who weren't in the movie -- a trend that seems to be mostly gone. Now its taking path of least resistence and fucking someone wherever it's convenient for the filmmakers, not for where it makes any sense. ("Hey Suzy's in the outer office... can we shoot her?" "Sure... take her into the warehouse, have her blow you... we'll put it into some movie we're not putting much thought into...")

(Which means I tend to disagree with the notion of "Good Natured Contempt" -- I think it's "plain old contempt.")

So, with any luck, we tell each other which movies to avoid and which ones deliver what they promise. And we act accordingly.

In doing so, we'll educate each other, and the porngraphers who don't hold up their end of the deal, would hopefully suffer.

They come to realize that we know what we're talking about (thus, we're "educated") and they have to work harder to earn our business (their "nightmare").

However, since Leisure Time is still doing great business, I don't know if the promise ever panned out. :-)

Jeff

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Maybe I'm arrogant to believe I need writing and acting? But I haven't found it, so I've turned to wall-to-wall for my stroking needs (because that's what it boiled down to, otherwise I'd be watching a mainstream film).

I know true film auteurs believe I'm a cretin. Hell, I admit I'm a cretin, but I'm a difficult if not impossible to please cretin whose standards may be set too high.

Without story and the performers' ability to suspend my disbelief, features are just a waste of time and money for me. Looks alone don't do it for me.

I think it's more to do with ME; I've changed. Watching other people fuck just doesn't get me aroused. But sexual tension does. Sexual situations...do. I like intensity, often lacking in features, but which gets translated as POUNDING in "the rest".

*yawn*

Five minutes of closeup genitalia shots is just...boring.

So, I need to be engaged by what I'm watching. I'm merely rehashing old complaints from days eternal now, as pointed out, so I'll move along. ...but if you can point me to it -- I'm open minded.

I'm so confused!! I might try that "think before posting thing" one of these days, but I can't make any promises!

Edited by - cobalt60 on 3/12/2004 4:48:30 PM

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Now it surprises me when I'm able to find a title I'm even halfway confident about renting. I'm just not bitter enough nor vindictive enough towards women to be thrilled by watching them get put through the wringer. I want to see them as valuable, beautiful, erotic, hard-fucking (in a way THEY have some chance of enjoying)...... THAT'S IT. That's it! That's the disconnect! That's what distorts so many porn guys and distances them from getting along well sexually with the average woman. Porn Guys get so used to being the only person in the room that their tastes start to go off the rails and there's no woman there to help make a course correction for them and return them to what's actually sexy. Then their new lusts become solidified in their brains over time, and when they decide to try this stuff out with a girlfriend (or introduce the wife to their new bag of tricks) they get rebuffed. And instead of analyzing what happened and admitting that they kind of went off track themselves, Porn Guys will tend to blame the woman they're "with" and see her as more and more of a prude who doesn't understand them. Then she'll find and throw out his porn collection and he'll increasingly resent her and HE WON'T MIND watching abusive porn quite so much because now it's part of his fantasy life to just take out his frustrations on some hot bitch's ass. (As opposed to being in a give-and-take situation where each looks after the satisfaction of the other and emotional closeness leads to heat.) When the process is complete, a distorted porn guy will still behave as if he's the only person in the room EVEN WHEN HE'S WITH SOMEONE. She's part of the furniture, in other words. He might start to steer toward hookers or the disadvantaged and desperate, as the chances to "do his thing" with a normal woman will be few. My point is that it may be a good idea to reevaluate where this river of depraved porn is sweeping us off to, and if we really want to reach the destination.

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CC

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You certainly make a good point, and I certainly indulge in features now and again... but there are a number of things lacking there. Instead of a complete LACK of pretense about story, role-playing or character, there is far TOO MUCH of it, especially with regard to the comparatively mediocre acting and directing abilities and the budget constraints of those who create them. I'm not saying this is true for every porn fan, but it's true for ME. In fact, my rant isn't aimed at ALL of pornography either. Like Dreamweaver, I do like the harder edge, which most features simply do not provide, but I HATE by the numbers warehouse porn where the only redeeming value comes by just trying to enjoy the beautiful girl, DESPITE the director's presentation of her.

For me the answer isn't features unless you're talking about those extreme oddities like The Fashionistas. The answer is finding the right gonzo directors. For my money, Joey Silvera not only shoots what I like, but most of his work is done with a genuine attitude of care toward the girls he shoots. His scenes leave my smiling. A hard edge that you know is explored with an eye toward experimentation and role playing within the comfort limits of the performer rather than a rote checklist that is independent of the personalities involved. Jules has certainly turned my crank on occasion, and lord knows John Leslie is no slouch. And I can certainly see why Evil has picked up Johnnie Darkko as well.

It's no accident that these people are all together under one banner and are among the best at what they do. John Stagliano is one of porn's few true visionaries, and understands all of this better than most of us do I dare say.

In any case, my rant isn't me yelling that I'm fed up with porn, or that there aren't still things to like (and that includes plenty of work outside the Evil Angel fold of course). But to me, features aren't the middle ground that I'M looking for. It's not the hardness or the softness. It's not the acts or the checklists, it's simply the attitude and the attention to... excitement and eroticism that I'm after, as well as some decent production values. Despite what many people contend, I think this can be had in both the softest and the hardest scenes--but all too often, it is lacking in both. And what follows is.... well, boredom.

Again though... that's not to detract from what you're saying at all Obibong. You have a good point... It's just that for me , most feature porn, as it exists right now, is not the answer.

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I know I'm not rich, in fact I'm comfortably poor, saving up money for other more important things, and there is no possible way I could, or would, ever buy the 300+ titles I have on my list of wants.

I can see these studios urgency to crank 'em out, one after the other, because it's a business, and the more you make and put out, the potential for higher profits increases.

Plus, since 1999, or 2000, how many new studios have formed? If I were to want to get into making porn now, I'd have to be legally insane, there's really no stand-outs in the crowd, and all I'd be was another number, at the bottom of a very long list...

---BIGmike, going and going and going since MCMLXXX---

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On the other hand, I'm not necessarily sure that at heart, the problem truly is contempt for the audience. It may well be in the capabilities of the producers, and that may be why so much of the good stuff comes from the same sources. It's possible that everyone's trying, but some people can do better, and some can't.

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Slightly off topic, Frank Herbert makes an interesting observation about the ties between the male sex drive and aggression in The White Plague. I see this played out a lot in the abusive nature of 'cutting edge' gonzo. Some women enjoy that kind of thing, which is fine, but I perceive that a lot of young women who want to explore their sexuality are being taken advantage of and, as a lover of women in general, I think that's sad.

Gonzo may not have totally won the war but it certainly carved out a huge chunk of territory for itself and I don't see feature porn ever getting it back. Given that fact, the drive towards the bottom was inevitable. The growth of the Internet and realization that there's money in them thar' hills simply accelerated the process.

While Jeff and friends may not have succeeded in eliminating the trolls at the bottom they at least have the right idea. Point out where people are trying, if not succeeding, to make the kind of sexual content you're looking for so that like-minded individuals can support those efforts as well. In other words, the best you can do is to help 'your kind' to survive.

As far as what porn could be, well, let's start with what it can't. It can't be all things to all people in a single scene. Even a casual perusal of these boards is enough to tell that no matter what you like in porn there's somebody out there who hates it. Given that fact, there never will be a day when all porn is 'good' porn.

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Ah, succintness...all I was trying to say, right there in that little nugget.

And so we cringe at the wretched little movies that try to get by as couples-friendly, and gape in horror and amazement as we realize today's feature is every bit the train wreck that they have been since the 70s.

And then we cringe on the far side, the wall to wall sex side, where it looks like every frustrated guy who couldn't get a date finally gets his due in a pound of flesh that horrifies, shocks and amazes (and sometimes excites me, but that's a whole different topic and leave my demons alone, please, they're just fine where they are).

I've read good ... I mean *GOOD* adult graphic novels that handle story, characterization and hot sex flawlessly. But see -- I can read, hell I even enjoy reading, and that's not en vogue any more. But in your mind, you put the inflection in the right places, the voices are just right, the music in the background is whatever you happen to have on the stereo. It's sublime (sometimes it really is Sublime ).

It's like still photos -- I get more cranked up from what's in my head, why is she there, what is that look for, what's going on in her head -- I like the emotional content that I create better than what's given to me in the setups prevalent in pornos.

So I KNOW...deep down in my blackened little heart...that it's possible to combine sexual chemistry and tension with eroticism. How can you have heat on a set with lights and people milling around? On some sets, they close it off but for the actors, a camera operator and director. Mmmm...intimate...quiet...let the moment BE what it is...don't FORCE it...let the human interaction take over and MAGIC will happen.

Fuck that! We're on a budget! We've gotta get these lights and cameras back! Did you say the line without flubbing it? Good enough! WRAP!

I know we can have better. skronker might make it. I might write and draw it, if I can get over this infernal laziness and fear of success (...leave the demons alone!). Until then, I just don't watch. I talk to people who watch, because I like a lot of people here, but as for the product being talked about; that contempt really does go both ways.

And its not all of them, not all the talent, not all the directors, or editors, some of them are fantastic folks I'm so glad to have gotten to know better - as people . But the rest? Just like anywhere else. I know some of the people I work with are dead weight who should be fired or retire - it's so depressing and so chronic (and they're so close to going down the tubes) that I stopped busting my ass every day and starting goofing off here -- A LOT.

I don't apologize for it, because the higher ups don't have a plan, or care, either. I know my talents are being wasted there, and it won't last forever. I have a plan, though, unlike them. And celebrating humanity, and yes, of course, sexuality, is a big part of it.

Until then - what have I done? Jack shit. So who am I to talk? Someone who knows better - that you could have better, but you're not considered worth the effort. And the money's not there. Well, I think you are. And one of these days, I'll do my damnedest to prove it. And if the product is good, the money will come. And instead of making three pieces of crap, you make one thing that's worthwhile, and the cycle begins again. In theory. It's horseshit coming from me, I know...

So keep me out of this -- ugh -- sorry -- meanwhile, if you can find what works for you, GREAT! With rare exception, I can't find it.

Some of the directors mentioned could do it -- SOMEBODY GET THEM THE MONEY!! That's all. Get them money, equipment, time, a decent script and actors who look good naked. Is that so much to ask? I know...I know...shut up, cobalt. *SIGH*

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And I saw an excellent scene in Fresh New Faces 3 -- Stefano literally charms performances out of two new girls, including sweet Southern thang Corina Taylor and a British lass, Jamie Brooks. Stefano is dominant, but also spends time kissing and whispering to the girls. No mad anal action or crazy degradation, just two hot little girls having a good time with a guy who knows how to fuck, a lot of touching and kissing, and best of all medium shots where you see not only body parts but faces (even if the face doesn't always match the body part -- ha ha, but that's the beauty of [menage a trois is it not?). One of the most satisfying scenes I've seen in a long time, that was just part of a routine "newbie"-themed flick that was, in the end, about average for a gonzo (mostly, I didn't dig the female cast, just not my types, but that one scene -- totally my types!).

Just to say, I think there are great scenes out there -- even in standard productions. And it's up to the consumer to sort it out. People on ADT are pretty smart (well, most of 'em), so it shouldn't be too hard to sort out the good from the bad (and the ugly).

Vote with your wallet.

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CC

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I keep hoping someone comes along to show a different way to shoot porn that can still attract an audience. I still feel that features have more potential. After watching a bunch of RLD type videos I go running to some Wicked features for some imagination, and I would rather watch Devinn Lane and Jessica Drake get fucked than all the sad looking young girls of gonzo put together. The problem is if you have talent and a good script, you want to make mainstream movies, not disreputable porn. I gotta admit that almost all features now, and in the past, are really difficult to sit through.

I also have to concede that the actual sex scenes are filmed far more professionally nowadays with more care for good angles etc. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be much future for girls as pornstars, the career span appears to be shrinking rapidly. The audience prefers rough extreme anal sex scenes, and I can understand girls not wanting to go through that on a daily basis. Fortunately some can, like the incredible Ashley Blue. I guess I prefer longer term relationships with my porn stars.

Edited by - rjk13 on 3/12/2004 8:18:37 PM

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Angela Landsbury said it best:

Tale as old as time.

Well, actually she sang it. You get the point.

I have always struggled with this issue. I think it is a big reason why guys like Mike John and John Stagliano are my favorites and girls like Kami Andrews and Selena Silver should be studied by all other pornstars. These people very genuinely seem to love pornography and if they were not pornographers they'd be right there with us complaining. Far too few of them in this business.

Kelly

Edited by - tscfan317 on 3/12/2004 9:37:01 PM

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Well, I guess all us porn fans have been disappointed more often then we care to admit, though I've never actually cried about it. For me, about 10% or so of the scenes I watch are enjoyable. The others are fair, or outright boring, or disturbing, or sometimes a combination of all these. But, since I know good enjoyable scenes exist out there, I can't quite give up the search and throw in the towel, no matter how frustrated I've been at times.

Skronker is right, the first scene in Stefano's Fresh Faces 3 is one of those rare scenes where everything comes together. The three people in the bedroom all look like they want to be there, there's no fakery or emoting, the camera work was great, and I didn't even notice until it was over that there was absolutely NO ANAL SEX, NO CIRCUS ACTS, NO DEGRADATION OF ANY SORT.

By contrast, there are two b/b/g scenes in the same film that have double penetrations, one even has a DVP. And you know what, these weren't nearly as exciting to watch as the first scene. In each b/b/g scene, the 3 people manage to fit their body parts into as few places as possible at the same time -well, big deal. Contorting oneself and one's partners into human pretzels may look interesting once or twice, but after that all these DP's end up looking the same, and these contortions can't make up for a lack of real heat between the performers.

Even sticking with your favorite directors at the well-known studios only works part of the time. Given that most of these directors have to put out a new title once a month, they all seem to have some of that assembly line mentality, start lowering their standards, releasing stuff even they know isn't quite good enough. The directors always bury these scenes in the middle of the film, maybe hoping people don't notice. (Guess what, some of us do, and we even write reviews! )

I have to say, I've recently watched Johnni Darkko's Anal Perversions, and I can see why Evil Angel signed him on. He at least took enough pride in his work to make certain that all the footage was in focus, the lighting wasn't too harsh, the skintones looked natural (far better than any other gonzo film I've seen), the audio was fine, the music he chose didn't distract from the action, and his camera work caught all the essential parts of the scenes; I didn't once feel like he was in the wrong place at the right time. Two of the scenes were really good, and oddly enough were the ones with European actresses, though the film was made in Los Angeles. You definately don't get the idea that he has contempt for the performers or the fans.

Maybe there should be more directors like him....I mean, more directors who are not porn actors (I know, this is practically blasphemy ), more directors who know how to operate a camera, and film a scene decently. That would go at least part way to lowering the disappointment of some fans.

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Somewhere along the line, that focus has changed a bit. The sexual aspect, IMO, has become merely the means to an end. That end is really, more or less, to see a beautiful woman degraded and debased.

Well known music-critic Lester Bangs wrote in 1980 (in regards to a Blondie ad): "I think that if most guys in America could somehow get their fave-rave poster girl in bed and have total license to do whatever they wanted with this legendary body for one afternoon, at least 75% of the guys in this country would elect to beat her up."

Unfortunately, the current porn output seems to be bearing this out as true. We love our starlets, they're beautiful and outside the accessibility of the average joe... that's why people seemingly love to see them choked, spit on, gagged, double stuffed, ATM, slapped and wrecked.

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I think there are several topics here: first, the contempt porn producers have towards their audience; second, the contempt porn producers have towards women; third, the contempt porn producers have towards the business and product they produce (and themselves for being in the business of producing it); and lastly, the desolate landscape of most porn video today, and by implication, its relationship to the aforementioned contemptuous attitudes. But I'm not sure all this stuff is quite as connected as it appears.

The condition of porn production today is not so much about contempt as it is a consequence of economics. Most producers are trying to make the best hardcore they can, and are making it based on (a) what they like themselves, (b) what they think their audience likes, and (c) what they feel they can afford financially to do. They also operate under the constrictions of what they know how to do--their competence as video-makers. Add to this the limitations, perceived or real, of the talent pool producers work with every day, and you have a fair picture of the reality of pornographic video at the moment. The bottom line is this: gonzo (with the few exceptions of Private, Evil Angel, maybe Hustler, and the odd title now and then from one of the smaller companies) has a very low baseline for profitability. Features have a much larger baseline, but only because of cable, and that market puts various restraints on what is, or is not, acceptable to its audience. And that, my friends, is porn as it exists today. There is no middle ground. the industry has backed itself into this ridiculous corner, and until it finds a way out, porn will continue to look pretty much as it does now. And this has really nothing to do with sexual content or audience contempt at all.

As far as audience contempt is concerned, it exists in any sector of the entertainment industry. And it is also a two-way street. Porn has contempt for its audience--but its audience also has contempt for porn. Just look at some of the threads (like the one recently about "old porn stars,") here at ADT if you don't believe me. Or have a look at other sites, such as Luke Ford. There's plenty of disdain to go around. This little conundrum has existed in erotica since Aretino and won't leave us anytime soon, either.

One thing that is starting to bother me is the various threads trying to decipher what is "reality sex" in the video and what is "fake," and making qualitative judgments based on these impressions. The gonzo format encourages this type of thinking, of course, but it is all a nonsensical game of bait-and-switch. I am often reminded of Desiree Cousteau, one of the most famous performers of the Classic era, who despised making porn films but was viewed by fans as a happy-go-lucky hippie girl having a great time in her movies. So don't be so sure whose having fun in their scenes. Ultimately, erotica is about voyeuristic fantasy, and authenticity is secondary to the appearance of authenticity. And this is where there is no substitute for a gifted pornographer. In this vein, I wish fans would focus more on the competence issues. The problem with visual erotica is that your frame of reference is not what you make it in your imagination (as in a good dirty story), but only what is revealed to you by the camera eye. It is much more restrictive. The accumulation of these images, and their final arrangement, determine the erotic content of the product. When Cobalt says that magazine layouts "work" for him more often than hardcore video discs, he is really attacking the competence of video makers. Most erotic photographers are professionals who know what they are doing; most camera jockeys in porn are not. One reason why Silvera and Leslie seem to have some polish and style to their work might be because they learned a few things working with professional filmmakers in their youth. One reason why many younger pornographers seem limited is because they have never seen a film by--much less worked with--a veteran erotic filmmaker such as DeRenzy, Damiano, or Pachard.

The measure of a good porn disc is that it have little or no dead space, sexual or otherwise. The fast forward button should not be required. The whole object should sustain your interest, from one scene or sequence to the next. The non-sex parts (whether gonzo or feature) should have some coherence to the whole, and some entertainment value on their own merits (God, I feel like the porno Aristotle now). Remember, the whole premise of wall-to-wall sex flicks (and their were plenty of features in the old days that had more action, more girls, and more orgasms that any gonzo made today)? It was that they eliminate the dead air in the simplest way: with more fucking. But wall-to-wall hardcore today is made for the FF button, even more so than most cable features. The interview segments are hideous wastes of time. The chat is stupid and artificial. The attitudes are based on a misguided notion about eroticism and "what fans want." The sex action is static, poorly lit, poorly captured, edited in a most pedestrian manner, and guided by a presumption that morbid, solitary, fetishistic sexual spectacle is more important than universal sexual fantasy, arousal and fulfillment. I'm assuming that most fans prefer the latter; but then again, neither I, nor most of the posters contributing to this thread, qualify as "most fans."

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People Lee respects ; Kami Andrews for her warm and loving spirit , John Stagliano for gambling so much of his own money on an expensive feature ( when he could have churned out 10 more gonzos at the same cost but a fraction of the risk ) , Alain Payet for shooting sexy girls in sexy situations ( all without chocking ) , many posters on ADT who clearly think about the girls behind the veil and care at least a little for their welfare . There are possibly a few other people as well , but the names won't come to me right now .

Perhaps the way out of the corner that porn finds itself in is to be found in the possibilities of cable distribution . Maybe nobody read last time , is interested , or has any answers to give , but I ask again : Isn't there a possibility of breaking the bounds of cable propriety ? Who sets the rules which govern what content is acceptable and what is beyond the pale ? Maybe that way there's a chance to break the hold of All Sex and release eroticism from wherever it's currently trapped .

Incidentally , I feel that many European features make a better stab at erotic pornography than their American counterparts . This could be due to less stringent rules on cable distribution in certain countries , or due to a more relaxed attitude to filmmakers who also dabble in hardcore . One of my favourite directors at the moment is Silvio Bandineli , a man who has also worked ( still works ? ) in mainstream erotic film under the name Frank Simon . The skills needed to work in that more highly regarded ( and hence more highly fought over ) genre of film making are apparent in some of his hardcore works as well . I'd love them to be more widely known , especially in comparison to some American directors who don't really impress me much : Brad Armstrong for instance . Here's a review of one of his features that you may find interesting .

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There are a number of incredibly talented directors out there with style, vision & an almost insane (but no less brilliant) sexual imagination that often go unappreciated by already jaded viewers who see their work. I personally feel that it's often the viewer, not the director, who takes the most fun out of watching porn.

I don't think that requesting from a director a certain sex act or camera angle is a bad thing at all. I feel the opposite but I also think that both viewers and some directors can take all that way too far & often times their movies suffer because of it.

With some viewers I think it's a no win situation for directors & I prefer watching material from directors who capture their own personal style. There is an overwhelming abundance of material to choose from out there and, in my opinion, only a small percentage of it is good.

If the director is (or has) a good cameraman I enjoy watching their material from both an artistic & erotic level. I get so much more from the footage when I see it from both levels and I think the best directors are ones who allow themselves to create their own style & simply capture the flow of the scenes. A perfect example of this is in the Michael Stefano - Vanessa Valenzuela scene from JUST OVER EIGHTEEN #7. Rarely have I seen two performers so eager to fuck one another and David Lugar expertly shot that scene in a complete departure from the endless routine centralization that Red Light District normally cranks out. It's porn at its absolute best.

Although I'm a female & watched films more for the "top male talent" than anything else (which make my viewing needs often, but not always, disregarded & neglected) I think on the issue at hand, I have to side more with the directors. Before I settled on my favorite companies & directors to buy from I watched tons of movies from many different distributors and read comments about some of the titles here. It seems to me that a lot of directors really do listen to consumer feedback and try to incorporate what viewers say they want to see. The fact is, unless you're on the set or the one holding the camera, you're rarely going to see exactly what you want. It's better, I feel, to find the companies & directors that best suit your needs and give yourself the opportunity to enjoy their work instead of trying to dictate everything that is wrong with each scene. Normally, you will find that when you put those negative frustrations aside, there is an incredible amount of footage to enjoy.

There are two things I've learned from posting & reading threads on this site:

1) Just because I don't like a particular movie, series or director it's probably going to be another viewer's favorite material so, instead of knocking it, it's better to just move on to a director you know you can trust.

2) Many viewers are hopelessly confused (and dead locked) about what they want to see & when directors provide it, they often just find something else to complain about.

It's a never ending cycle but I don't feel that many directors have a contempt for their audience. I think, in fact, in opposite terms. I use to see many lousy scenes in which I got the impression that the director was trying so hard to capture tiny things that fans say they want to see that everything else the scene had to offer was completely voided out.

I hope my comments don't offend anyone or piss them off. That is not my intention. These are just my thoughts & all opinions count for something.

Lori

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The notion that producers have "contempt for their audience" seems a bit much, maybe too analytical. Making porn movies is, just like everything else in the world today, about making money. And like every other industry, the idea is to make as much profit with as little investment as possible. The problem with the porn industry is that it is unregulated. Any Dick or Jane can make a porn movie...no credentials neccessary. Any company can outright lie in its advertising and on its product covers...no truth in advertising watchdogs. Any performer/director can treat its talent in any way...law makers aren't watching. All of this just lends itself to an industry that can take advantage of the consumer to make more money.

Nearly all of you have taken advantage of the audience in some way, shape or form. Even those of you on this group that I love. How many times have you thrown in a scene just so you could get the product out the door? How many circus acts have you performed or directed? How many of you actually have any formal training in producing, directing, editing, etc? How many of you have allowed your talent to be abused or degraded for a more exciting scene? I don't think you have contempt for us, it's just the economics of it all.

Porn has a built in audience who have a lot of disposable income. Porn also has a lot of shady people who will do anythng to get that income. They don't care if we are disappointed with their product, we've already shelled out the $19.95. They also know that only 5% of us read reviews so there will be others shelling out that same $19.95. Is this contempt or just Capitalism?

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I mean, the girls are there to get fucked, right? Isn't that why you do porn? I find it hard to believe that the girls believe they are going to be cast for a Shakespeare play.

I find movies like "Fashionista" with their faux art pretensions much more insulting. I'd like porn to go back to the halcyon days of gonzo, where all you needed was a videocam and a fistful of cash (Max Hardcore, Ed Powers, etc.)

sk

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I like people (sometimes, when I'm not pissed off at the world), and I want to see people having fun, and happy, and that doesn't mean there can't be some rough stuff, edginess and intensity (I LIKE IT!), but it's just different when you know (or are fooled into believing) that the participants want to do it, are celebrating life and love and lust -- and you can watch if you wanna! Taylor St. Clair comes to mind, Bella, Ashley Blue, and maybe they're fooling me - so fool me, it works.

I liked the Wifey stuff for about a week, but c'mon -- once you've seen a couple dozen outfits on her and the same old blowjob + facial or swallowing routine, they lost me. If it ain't broke, don't fix it? It's broke, all right, like a record that skips...*skip*....*skip*...

Lack heat? Just as much as the slicker stuff coming off the assembly lines in CA.

** Not getting my porn dollar any more.**

Mike John, I love the guy and he works a mean camera, but six scenes of the same routine with different girls in the same hotel room just gets old after a while, and how can it not? Mike'll tell you "I shoot what I like". Fortunately for me, he likes a lot of the same things I do! But even so...it's not like I'm rushing out to buy everything he does when one or two discs more than satisfy my need for his brand of POV. I don't believe he has contempt for us fans at all, but he's doing what he knows works and may have painted himself into a corner with it.

**Getting SOME of my porn dollar.**

Many times, say in a John Leslie Voyeur title, there's a twist to the setup that gives it that little bit of extra "oomph" that makes it a keeper. The unseen spectator, the order the acts in a sex scene play out, any number of 'mixing it up' elements that set it apart. I've seen the same from Silvera, too.

** Getting MORE of my porn dollar. **

It's not all good, of course, but neither is my chili -- sometimes it's too hot, too salty, too something, but when it's GOOD, it's worth bringing over to a friend's house to say "try this!" Saying you can't go wrong choosing a director you like is like saying they'll never have an off-night, or a mood swing or just try something new that doesn't quite work out. Don't we all?

I'm not singling out Leslie, Silvera, Stagliano or anyone else as the exceptions to the banality that abounds, either, but I know there's imagination out there and I like it.

** Getting the REST of my porn dollar. **

ADT helps us keep each other honest, doesn't it? The consumers and the industry? The trick is getting more people to come here BEFORE they buy, rather than to buy their first Adult DVD, sight unseen, and never buy again. And reminding each other not to get stuck in a rut of our making and to recognize it when it occurs.

And constructive criticism is good for those directors who care - the rest don't even register on my porn dollar radar.

** Getting NONE of my porn dollar! **

I hunger -- lunch-time! OK, well, I think I'm talking in circles anyway. So, let's see what else shakes out and meanwhile, I'm still boycotting. Darko, Capo, whoever you are, wherever you film, bring it on! -- keep proving the naysayers wrong and putting shame in the game of your peers. We'll get there. If the whole industry doesn't get shut down first (like we'll ever let that happen -- we'll go colonize the Moon if this country gets too fucked up! ).

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I am surprised that no one has really delved into the effect the recent and forthcoming "war on porn" will have on this issue of quality...and leave it to me to bring it up. I think with the appointment of Bruce Taylor to the Attorney General's office, the industry will see a wave of raids, inquiries, and crackdowns that will force a lot of the crap off the market. The smaller, low-budget guys will not survive the IRS, John Ashcroft, the Christian Right, and the Postmater General delving into their operations...and it's coming. The survivors will be the companies who run decent operations, keep decent records and ledgers, and put out a decent product. The visonary stragglers at the bottom, myself hopefully included in that demographic, will survive on artistic merit and in the fact they they produce material that is defendable as art because it obviously has the integrity of a true body of artistic work. All the other dominos will fall by the push of a government finger, or drop out voluntarily before they get pushed over.

Mason had a FABULOUS discussion about this very issue here.

It only took me about two days in this business to realize that the consumer is hardly a factor in this industry...unlike any other marketing venture. The DISTRIBUTOR is the guy you want to please...the consumer has to pick from whatever ends up on the shelf...and distributors could give two shits about "the integrity of porn as art". He wants low numbers on his debits side and high numbers in his credits column...and he wants to stay within the safety zone of hot chicks getting fucked...nothing risky, experimental, avant gard (sp?), or challenging in any manner.

So who is the most at fault? The Producers for playing into the hands of the distribution game, the distributors who do nothing to elevate the demands of the porn culture, or the consumers who are going to buy irregardless of what is produced or distributed? (I'm having a mental picture of Sylvester chasing Tweety while being chased by Spike the Bulldog, in the middle of heavy traffic, just prior to the sound of screeching tires and a multi-car pile-up.)

Edited by - guy capo on 3/15/2004 2:25:27 PM

Edited by - guy capo on 3/15/2004 2:27:42 PM

Edited by - guy capo on 3/15/2004 2:31:59 PM

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Since there is good reason to doubt the infallibility of my knowledge of porn as much as the nativeness of my English trying to add a comment that can match the others would probably be a challenge even Pepsi would back away from. So I just forget about featured posting and move to wall-to-wall posting:

I'm not a sick fucking pervert who lubes up his hard dick. I'm a sick fucking pervert who wants to get a firm, tight grip on his dick. And then give me some good stuff I enjoy stroking to for longer than 15 minutes and my pre-cum will shoot any kind of lube into the Valley of Redundancy, Rest Virginia. (No offending intended, it's just a bad pun about what I think about remaining a virgin that would be quite good perhaps when not explained afterwards and completely off topic.)

This thread shows that the way a box cover writer (or a company/ a director) treats the girls could be an indicator of how they see their customers. At least you can get that out of my post. To which extent you want to agree on my point is up to you and maybe correlates negatively with the amount of your contempt towards sick fucking perverts who don't lube up their dicks.

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"This is what you want; this is what you get."

As someone who has struggled to NOT condescend to the audience & treat them the way I myself would want to be treated, my reward has been mostly a lot of shit from a lot of people & constant pointing out that since I don't have an Escalade with spinners my shit must suck. So I will be taking some of this discussion with a HUGE grain of salt ...

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There's nothing quite like a year old thread you started coming back to haunt you... but it's largely the impetus that STARTED this thread in the first place that I am finding more and more solace these days in companies like Wicked. They don't go far enough down the path of real passion or intensity for my tastes, but at least they're TRYING to do something special--and at least I don't feel like killing myself out of despair for humanity after watching one of their movies. Obibong made a point that I didn't give enough credence to before. Maybe, at least sometimes, when the mood is right, features are the answer. Besides that, Wicked's behind the scenes interviews and featurettes are some of the best in the business.

I'm not writing off gonzo or all-sex vids by any means. It's still a large and stable part of my pornographic diet, but don't tell me that Wicked disrespects their audience merely because they market to a different niche. That's just ridiculous.

Edited by - MLyons on 4/8/2005 11:51:48 PM

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Mind you, I still don't agree with the point you were making, but what the heck does your post have to do with what we're discussing here?

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-T.C.

Comstock Films:Real Life, Real People, Real Sex

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Grab your local newspaper and see what is playing at the local cineplex and try to keep this discussion in your mind. The crap that is thrown together and fed to the public is no less appalling than the ccrap thrown at us in adult. Maybe a bigger budget but unimaginative, mediocre and most defintely lazy. How long before the adult industry starts putting out trailers that mimic "from the company that did craft services on The Ring, we present The Ring part two". I mean come on.

So I agree adult definetly takes it's audience for granted but are we as consumers really voiceing our opinions all that loudly for something better. The DVD's keep selling. We sure can't ask Mike John to stop shooting his series. Hell as long as he is making enough to pay his rent I am sure he is happy. Forget the "escalade with the spinners" I am sure he is happy with a GEO Metro as long as he can come to work everyday and pop a shot on the forhead of some girl that would never look at him let alone have sex with him if money isn't involved.

It's refreshing in a sense to know that adult mimics mainstream so closely, at least for me. My only hope now is that when the feds come that we can stand up as effectively as Hollywood has against censorship.

Sinclair
VMG Video

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A lot (but not all) of the recent Red Light District and Anabolic videos I've seen seem to be more about how macho and fratboy-like the male performers can act, instead of hot women having great sex.

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