haha exactly, and while she's at it she should shove an electric buttplug in his ass or a cattle prod and turn on the maximum power for some couple of hours. I think that Max is a mentally deranged sociopat who should stay in prison for the rest of his miserable life.
I keep seeing mention of Facial Abuse. As someone who lives in a state where I doubt online subscriptions are possible: are there any DVD compilations out?
Here's the thing: Contracts aren't all written equally. Whenever I've worked with Kink, EVERYTHING has been laid out. What they'll do, what they won't do, what your safe word is, EVERYTHING. With FA, nothing was laid out. I got hit hard and for real and killed the scene after they bloodied my nose and burst blood vessels in my eyes. The girl who set me up with the shoot lied to me and told me it was all for show/not as rough as it looked. She did warn me they'd play head games, and that's one thing, but I didn't sign up to get beat up for real. Imagine this was professional wrestling and NOT porn. If you have someone who isn't pulling punches or executing moves the right way and he's REALLY hurting people, that isn't a good thing. It's especially bad if he's being put in matches and his partners aren't warned ahead of time so they could either prepare or decline the match. I don't see how it's a good thing in wrestling OR porn. If you're a sadist and that's your thing, more power to you I guess, but you need to either fake it or find people very deep into masochism if you want the moral high ground.
No one was more responsible for one scene and done than Ed Powers. Now that is abuse. the purple bedspread, Ed's unctuous personality. Thinks he is Woody Allen but is more like George Costanza, the left tit cum dump. The greasy ratlike exterior. heinous
I don't really care to see physical abuse. And anything involving spit or puke won't keep my watching. but I was very turned on by a recommend on the BTS with Sativa Rose and her inability to commit to the DP during Gang Bang Auditions 22. You could tell (Or I could imagine) that a lifer like Sativa should have been able to take the usual ring around the rosey Gangbang and the fact that she was unable and pissed off everyone there with their semi hard ons waiting for something to do was a *professional* failure on her part. but what I got off on immensely was her crying and tlaking to the camera guy about her sorrow for letting them all down wasting their time in between sucking and jerking his cock in POV. Then she turns to face the wall and guides his cock into her ass to try and make amends. Phew. Hands down in my top ten of all time. Also in volume 24. More BTS. Sarah Vandella talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk and that is hot too.
^ He is referring to Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon, two of the most famous anti-porn feminists. They wrote most of their famous stuff in the 1980s.
^ Ah,ok thanks.Seen as i was 7 in 1989 and know about as much about feminism as that guys does about being funny it's no wonder it was all kinda lost on me.
I know a lot about feminism, and have read Dworkin, MacKinnon, and their current manifestation in the form of Jensen and Dines. It's unfortunate that, even after years of queer and feminist work toward getting rid of the pro/anti-porn binary, it still exists and is perpetuated by anti-porners on the one hand (if you're not 100% against porn then you're 100% for it) and "pro"-porners/anti-anti-porners on the other (if you express any concern about the industry, its practices, or its representations then you're 100% against it). Both camps keep the other alive, and both are overly simplistic.
Thats the irony here,i actually like rough sex in my personal life and in my porn veiwing but theres a huge difference between rough sex and enjoying someone not handling the scenario there in.If it was an act and part of the fanasty then,although it wouldn't be my thing,i could understand.But to want to see someone legitimatley breaking down is just all kinds of fucked up. I put this questions to the people here defending this sort of thing.What if it wasn't something you were watching on a screen and actual real life,would you still feel the same?
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David Cop-a-feel Deactivated User
Trust me, honey, it gets better 323 Posts 10/10
Posted - Jan 31 2012 : 8:03PM
^ Yeah, I don't think it's really even "sex" anymore.I don't think guys are blowing their loads the moment the girl bursts into tears. It's for misogynists who have issues with women and wish to see them violently acted out while still being legal and, though I'm no fan of BDSM, I believe this stuff is qualitatively different to that scene.
I have no clue if Clara's experience is typical, but lets say for the sake of argument it is. The only way you get girls to get into this stuff is if they are dramatically unaware that its all real, they're thinking its professional wrestling, and that everyone's in on the joke. If this is the case, you're gonna capture "REAL FEAR" on the faces of women who thought they were in for professional wrestling. You're also gonna get a product that some people here appear to want, watching women suffer. As I don't like this stuff I don't know, but I'm guessing real aficionados know when its not real vs. when the girl is really coming apart. The difference of the girl pretending to break, pretending to be afraid, pretending to cry vs. when the pain, horror, suffering is real, is, arguably, that the sexual pleasure to the aficinado is just much greater when its real. Of course that means a real person has to really be terrified for someone to spank it... If Clara's experience is standard operating procedure, wow, that's some business model...heck of way to earn ones bread...
When you say that people who watch this abusive porn are being fueled to become rapists is exactly the argument those anti-sex feminists espoused to make porn illegal. Dworkin was so extreme her famous quote is, "All penetration is rape." All studies show the opposite. The nations and states with the most tolerant pornography laws have less sexual assault rates than the anti-porn ones. I'm too lazy to look this up, but I understand that Utah - a state with stringent anti porn laws has the highest rate of sexual abuse in the United States. And if I'm wrong, someone show me, but I understand you can track a states or nation's decline in overall sexual violence as that area's pornography access is increased. I don't want to derail this thread, but there should be Zero Tolerance (no pun) for those anti-porn arguments of "see it, do it" on a porn forum.
Just to clarify-I myself don't want to see them beat up, or slapped, etc. I don't even like the light slaps on the face or the tit slaps. A slap to the ass is about the most I wish to see regarding physical pain. Point being-this thread has taken a turn and been a bit derailed at this point: The original issue was one of an emotional breakdown or to put it simply: "Biting off more than they can chew". But again-I'm talking about scenes like the one I described in American Bukkake-where the girl knew exactly what would happen and the scene was consistent with what she was told... she just overestimated her abilities, etc. That is interesting to me-does it make me a sadist? Maybe, but I prefer to think I'm just interesting and unorthodox.
I have a niece who is about 19 and honestly her and her friends are pretty naive about virtually everything. I can easily imagine 18-19 year olds having zero clue and finding themselves on an FA shoot and freaking out. That said, they had a girl last year that was 18, STILL IN HIGH SCHOOL, who turned 18 less than a month before. They began destroying the fuck out of her immediately... I distinctly remember her being asked "is this the oldest cock you've ever sucked" and while she's answering it she starts barfing on the cock. Then the barfing continued for a good 15-20 minutes. It was an intense shoot and this girl seemed as naive as any girl I'd ever seen. Yet sure enough, four months later, she was back for round two at FA. More puke, and this time anal. I was definitely surprised. Clayra, your shoot sounded totally nightmarish and really awful. Had you seen FA beforehand? You're obviously one of the smart cookies in porn; had you seen their stuff and assumed it was all negotiated and "fake wrestling" ahead of time? Or was it a total shock? Did you have medical treatment because of the injuries to your eyes? Did these guys even apologize off camera? Ugg, hearing about your experiences is totally awful. Edited by - joeblow123321 on 1/31/2012 11:22:48 PM
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - Feb 1 2012 : 10:31AM
I'm sorry Clayra but I have a hard time with you claiming you didn't know what you were in for. The name of the site is Facial Abuse, correct? What did you expect? I'm not being a smart ass or being sarcastic in my tone, but I'm asking a serious question. Did you not know what was going to happen? Didn't your agent tell you who you were shooting for? Who was the girl that set up the shoot? I ask because over time you've come across as a fairly level headed performer on this site, and as such, I just have a hard time believing that you were completely unaware of what would happen. And if you were completely set up so to speak, I wouldn't be blaming the end users of the product for wanting to see it, I'd be blaming the people producing the material.
Ah... blaming the fans for watching, I love it. So by this logic, if a speed skiier in the olympics, crashes into a tree... well, it's not his fault. It didn't happen as a result of his choice to lead a risky life career... nope, it's the fans fault for not turning off the TV years earlier. I understand blaming the agent ... for not explaining. Or the FA people for betraying whatever they claimed that was surpassed... Or even an actor/s who pushed it beyond what he was supposed to. But to blame the fans is ridiculous, and nothing fancier. I've never been to the site, nor heard of it and had no idea what "FA" meant until this post 2 above mine finally defined it. Yet I recall now, someone mentioning that it contains the word "abuse".... So this makes me think of an actor/ess complaining after doing a golden shower shoot for a pee site, that nobody told him/her that the pee was going to taste so awful.... oh, and then blaming the fans for watching lol.
"Point being-this thread has taken a turn and been a bit derailed at this point: The original issue was one of an emotional breakdown or to put it simply: "Biting off more than they can chew"." Psychologists know that emotional abuse can be just, or more, harmful than physical abuse, depending on the circumstances. Ultimately I don't think it matters so much if the girl is mentally or physically beaten into submission, the result is sad, pathetic, cynical.... "But again-I'm talking about scenes like the one I described in American Bukkake-where the girl knew exactly what would happen and the scene was consistent with what she was told... she just overestimated her abilities, etc." None of us know what's in another persons mind. Why does it matter if she to blame for being naive or immature and getting into something she can't handle, the end result of some dude masturbating while she comes apart is a totally different issue. "That is interesting to me-does it make me a sadist? Maybe, but I prefer to think I'm just interesting and unorthodox." Watching a human being suffer is interesting? Ok, maybe from a psychological standpoint, but from an erection standpoint?
Hilario I see no new points here. Again, they are grown women who not only choose a risky profession (even the regular gonzo stuff can be emotionally damaging and lead to perhaps a torn rectum...) but in cases like this-actually choose to do a scene where they are guaranteed to be roughed up to a dangerous level... I really don't follow the concept of how they are victims when they jump up and down and say "pick me! I want to be a meathole!" This is a sliding scale-most of the women that take cum in the mouth don't like it either, some who sign up for anal don't like that. You could argue that facials are sadistic, but this is porno-either it's legal or it's not. So where is the line on ethics hilario? What is okay to masturbate to, and where is it that we cross the line? When she is slightly uncomfortable? Please clarify. Also-I can't really relate, I don't really ask other guys what they jerk off to, nor wish to spend my time examining the why, it's kind of a turn off, but that's just me. And again-you could crusade for many things for REAL VICTIMS-why pick porn stars with decision disabilities? Edited by - seedfeeder on 2/1/2012 5:43:12 PM
Consent! Clayra consented to perform acts for Kink. She didn't consent to get a bloody nose and burst eye vessels from FA. It wasn't an accident, it was intentional. It was and is intentionally done to give guys like you hard-ons, who get a kick out of seeing "real emotion" as somebody put it. "Breaking Down". Your comparisons with a girl disliking the taste of urine show to me how little you understand the concept of consent in a BDSM scenario. Mild autism perhaps. P.S. Clayra didn't blame the consumers. I would, however, hold them partially responsible in the case of sites like FA.
First-claiming I like to see a girl beat up suggests you have a mental deficiency, not me-as I've been clear about MY meaning. And I'm pretty sure she was pointing at the fans in this thread, I didn't read the long version of the story in the link. Since you are clearly thick, I'll use smaller words for you: I don't like violence in my porn, I don't even like to see slapping, I don't even like rough blowjobs... much less the nonsense it sounds like is on "FA". The fact that you know so much about the site says you know more about the "erection crime" you whine about, than I do... Every job has risks, you cannot blame the end consumer when you fall prey to the risks in your job. As a real estate broker, I have one of the few jobs where a person agrees to meet complete strangers, in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere. So if I get murdered at some point-as many brokers and agents have, I should blame the buyers? Sorry, the argument is idiotic. She may be a victim, but she is not a victim of those who pay to go to that site.
Oh also butinski, my question "where is the line" was to hilario (as clearly stated-again, you appear to be illiterate)-in regard to much milder situations-again, as stated clearly. So... since I said nothing you could really argue with, you pretend my question was to you or the general folks, and also that it was regarding the specific case of clara at FA? That's a pretty cowardly tactic in a debate. Then ... on top of that, you indicate that it gets me off to see a girl like her get beat up-again, underhanded. Making it up as you go, and being duplicitous as you've been here only speaks of YOUR character and YOUR ethics. But I guess your ethics while involving caring about injustice, do not extend to any need for honesty, interesting.
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David Cop-a-feel Deactivated User
Trust me, honey, it gets better 323 Posts 10/10
Posted - Feb 1 2012 : 8:36PM
You CAN blame the consumer because they are creating the demand for this type of porn. Now a girl booked for a rough shoot may be psyched-up for that but not necessarily aware she is to be "broken" for the viewers pleasure. Add to that the fear of possibly being blackballed if she doesn't complete the shoot,the need for income,etc, and the notion of "choice" becomes a bit more opaque.
I disagree David-but hey, at least you read what I said and responded to ME and MY words, unlike other folks who make it up as they go. My background is economics, so I certainly understand supply and demand, supply shifts, movements along supply curves and so forth-but the argument that you and others use here is beyond oversimplified, this is why: The direct culprits in this particular case are clear. The people who pay to see it, did not personally assault or batter this woman, so they are not DIRECT culprits. Your argument is that they are indirect culprits. This is dishonest, as you are making a "root of the problem" argument, but only going halfway down the weed. So really-you'd have to examine further, WHAT creates this form of sadism, what creates this sexuality-and when you get to the end cause.... you'll find you are essentially blaming society and culture. Which is bullshit. Instead, the woman should hire someone to beat the shit out of the guy who did it to her, sparing further women the same fate, problem solved :) So again, with blame-go either the direct or indirect route, but if you choose the latter, you can't go halfway and have it hold water. Further-the point of this thread wasn't about guys getting aroused by girls getting beat up-but about girls who breakdown unexpectedly for their OWN reasons, not because guys went way past what was agreed upon, such as the example I gave. People don't pay that site to see girls get beat up, American Bukkake usually has 0% body contact.... so again, the argument-in regard to the ACTUAL POINT I made, and the one much closer to the original topic, is 100% horseshit. It's not my fault when a pornstar due to emotional issues and low IQ agrees to do something and then changes her mind 1/2way through, nor did or would I know that prior to buying the movie. As I said-this thread got derailed and now the rhetoric is really piling up.
"I really don't follow the concept of how they are victims when they jump up and down and say "pick me! I want to be a meathole!" I don't think it matters that they sign up to do this. It's disturbing that there are people that get sexually excited from this stuff. "This is a sliding scale-most of the women that take cum in the mouth don't like it either, some who sign up for anal don't like that. You could argue that facials are sadistic, but this is porno-either it's legal or it's not. So where is the line on ethics hilario? What is okay to masturbate to, and where is it that we cross the line? When she is slightly uncomfortable? Please clarify." The line is where women are brutalized until they have an emotional breakdown, and I don't think it's a tough one to draw. I'm guessing porn is generally disagreeable for the women who perform, especially so for anal sex, for example. My job is sometimes disagreeable as well, but I accept that to earn my living, porn is no different. No offence personally, but "slippery slope" arguments, which is mostly what you are saying, are silly and overly simplistic. "And again-you could crusade for many things for REAL VICTIMS-why pick porn stars with decision disabilities?" Because I don't like bullies. Many years ago I got in a fistfight with one of my good friends when I saw him kick a dog. That said, I used to be a bully, so I know of what I speak. "Also-I can't really relate, I don't really ask other guys what they jerk off to, nor wish to spend my time examining the why, it's kind of a turn off, but that's just me." You're insinuating that I have a lame life because I am not minding my own business? Again, I don't like bullies, and I get off on challenging them, face to face is always the best. Now I'm not saying you're a bully, but when I see men taking advantage of women it makes me see red.
"People don't pay that site to see girls get beat up, American Bukkake usually has 0% body contact...." The few things I've seen from them gross me out, but I don't see anything wrong with this stuff. Do they emotionally abuse the girls? Ultimately though, the stuff I object to is the kind of thing Clayra describes. "The direct culprits in this particular case are clear. The people who pay to see it, did not personally assault or batter this woman, so they are not DIRECT culprits." If you agree that certain stuff is morally wrong, I'm not sure how you can so nicely draw distinctions about culpability. And no offence, arguing that you didn't beat her, u just paid to watch her being beat, is a cowards argument. Seed, you seem obsessed with assigning blame. If something is wrong its wrong. Let's just stipulate, for the sake of argument, you didn't "cause" the abuse, the fact you enjoy it is still cynical and sad. And ultimately as to blame, consider that we don't only convict child molesters, but also the folks that buy the pictures. I am not saying this disturbing pornography, like Clayra describes, should be illegal, or is any way equal to or like child predation. I am saying that there is a solid argument that there is shared responsiblity from the producers and the viewers, and the ACTRESSES too, of course...
Then you communicated your points poorly until now. What the OP described and what I have described had nothing to do with any physical abuse. If that is your "line", I can go along with that-although frankly, it is completely off topic and I would now accuse you of being a time burglar. Edited by - seedfeeder on 2/23/2012 4:51:14 PM
Either IQ points dropped a lot on ADT, or a lot of people argue from convenience. When did I ever say I watched FA, or better yet, why did you not notice that this (physical abuse) is not what this thread is about, that I too in this thread argued against it, that I have never been to this site.... By pretending I've said all these things when I've said the opposite-you are the coward, arguing alone on a false stage.
No arguments with any of that here. And I had to ask the question as some morons here are tying things like a girl agreeing to eat 50 cum shots-but clearly regretting it halfway through, to this "facial abuse" or whatever, where they are beating her up for real. Tying those two things together as "equal" types of abuse, or in fact even "equal" crimes by the end viewer-as hilario and other confusarinos have done, is ridiculous. Then when arguments are made-they play hide the cheese, relying on the physical abuse to make their point-which ultimately undermines their original point (you know, the point of the thread) which is emotional breakdowns.... which have nothing to do with guys in the scene being too rough, and certainly cannot be blamed on the end viewer.
"What the OP described and what I have described had nothing to do with any physical abuse." Emotional and physical abuse can both brutalize the victim, I think you've misunderstood my post(s). Let me be clear, what I find reprehensible is what appears to be a deliberate attempt to cause an emotional breakdown, whether that's from hands or just words matters not at all. Indeed, some of the worst examples I've heard of involve emotional abuse only. To do that for sport, so that other people can masturbate, it's sick. Edited by - hilario on 2/2/2012 3:30:54 AM
You again continue to communicate poorly. Usage of that word in such a way is uncommon, and as such should be noted when intended in that way-clearly you like to make others do all the work in your discussions. You've failed to make any point to me then: I've already proven that people who go to that site (American Bukkake) may be looking for degradation, but not breakdowns. You compared the 2 things, yet failed to prove it, then backed off it completely-so you've lost the only battle I cared about. Some of your points about FA are true, that's about it. So I'm going to quit wasting time on you until you learn manners enough to communicate effectively, again, you're a time burglar and a thread derailer and nothing fancier than that.
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - Feb 2 2012 : 3:55PM
I don't know whose line the above on was, but you both ought to try actually going out with women sometime. I know a couple of women who actually do get excited about stuff that's mentioned on this thread. One in particular loves the really degrading Max Hardcore stuff where it looks like the girl hates every moment of the scene. Of course they've both had some sexual trauma in their earlier years which explains a lot about their attitudes about sex in general.
So some women, as well as some men, also get off watching performers breaking down. No revelation there. I met a woman once who... never mind, it's irrelevant. The posters in this thread are not looking for anything simulated, or consensual BDSM play, they are looking for boundaries being crossed. Cases where the performer could not handle the situation WHATEVER the reason, WHOEVER is to blame.
Indeed, and I'm an experienced man, been with a lot of women, including several long term relationships-the majority had rape fantasies to some degree and almost all want a little roughness-to be dominated to some degree, bitten on the back, hair pulled, ass slapped, etc. Reality is not always the same as "Go Dog Go" or "See Spot Run". And as I said much earlier in the thread-sadism is very common in sex, and no clear line has been drawn, at least not by hilario.
Agreed-to varying degrees. I like to see lines crossed in some ways, but certainly not others. Like I've never understood the throat fuck-much less things like whatever the JM movies are called where they get way wild with it (i forget the name of the series) and her makeup is everywhere, so much spit on her face she's unrecognizable.... etc. Or their "slap happy" series for that matter-but again, it's legal and consensual, so I also don't judge those who like it nor act like these women are victims that should be crusaded for. I'd say JM and Max really started this bit of really crossing boundaries in porn that now has become more 'mainstream'. And it should be noted that in both cases-many actresses go back for more 2, 3 or more times. The fact that some don't know their limits, cannot logically be blamed on the guys that like it and buy it.
is this thread completely derailed now or should I try to keep it going? I've really only scratched the surface here. in the last minute of Lizzy London's scene for Facial Abuse, they do their standard Q&A with her and ask if the scene brought back any bad memories. Up until this exact question, she was in good spirits.. even laughing at times. But as soon as that question was asked.. she bursts into tears and reveals she's been raped a lot in the past. This kinda thing isn't exactly uncommon in FA scenes. I can think of a few off the top of my head in which girls revealed that they were molested/raped and the staff is usually less than sympathetic. One scene in particular is from Latin Abuse with a girl named Angel - very old scene, one of the first. While being fucked doggy style she reveals she was molested at age 8. The director essentially instructs her to 'admit' that she enjoyed it. Then he asks her for the name of the man who molested her, which is "papi", and then has her say stuff like "fuck me harder papi' to the guy banging her. The cameraman in Lizzy London's scene (a new guy) is a tad more considerate. She says she feels that having been raped a bunch has made her a stronger person and the cameraman agrees and ends with 'you're alright with me kid'.
Who wants to see girls abused and raped, I sure do not, I only want to see them really being pleasured during sex and hopefully having many orgasms whether one on one or group action, anything else as far as ladies being abused to me does not belong in what I consider great porn. Let's just enjoy all of the participants in recorded porn action truly getting off without being hurt, PLEASE!!
I saw a clip recently where a girl broke down with Rocco. I gotta say, respect for the Roc man sky rocketed when I saw how much of a gentlemen he was with her. It was awsome to see a director/performer seem genuinely concerned for his co-star's level of comfortableness. Rocco's scenes can be rough sometimes, but they're always erotic because the girls are right there with him. It's not one sided.
I have been through this thread and have seen quite a few people getting upset about this topic and at the OP. I dont get why a porn forum, which should be filled with the most open minded people possible, still tends to get all bitchy at the guy for posting this topic. I personally dont think its overly sexy when a girl gets her brains fucked out to the point where she starts crying and breaking down, but I will say that I find those scenes to be BY FAR some of the most interesting to watch.
Posted - Jan 31 2012 : 4:35PM
