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All Forums > Tech Talk > Tech Talk Forum Page 58 > Quality: Hardware Vs Software DVD Decoding
AuthorPost
Dick Johnson
Member


175 Posts
3/04
Posted - Apr 6 2004 : 3:07AM
It seems that these days more and more people are using software DVD playback, especially that PCs and GPUs have grown fast enough for products like WinDVD and PowerDVDs to be acceptable solutions.

However, up until now I've always used dedicated hardware MPEG2 decoding boards which made it so that even when I only had a lowly Pentium II, I was still able to play back DVDs with perfect quality at resolutions up to 160 hex 1200.

About a year ago, however, I started seeing a problem that seemed to affect all DVDs from particular studios, such as Evil Angel and Zero Tolerance. At first I thought it was isolated to certain DVDs until it grew to be so consistent that I concluded it was related to the mastering processes used by these companies.
The problem was about Fast-forwarding DVDs at 2x speed displaying a static yet flickering frame instead of displaying the frames being skipped over in quick succession. I raised this problem in the thread below:

https://www.adultdvdtalk.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35896&FORUM_ID=16&CAT_ID=3&m=

However, the suggestions I got were to try software playback tools like WinDVD and PowerDVD. While WinDVD didn't seem to have this problem, I felt it was completely unacceptable due to the huge quality drop it seemed to exhibit.

So I wanted to explore this a bit more and know what people are using (hardware or software) and whether they're seeing these problems:

My hardware decoder is the "Creative PC-DVD Encore Dxr3" decoder board which does complete MPEG2 decoding in hardware at resolutions up to 160 hex 1200. In reality, it is a rebranded version of SigmaDesign's "Realmagic Hollywood Plus" decoder board (manual at: http://www.sigmadesigns.com/pdf_docs/hwp_man.PDF) The accompanying playback software, which used the decoder board, is also a rebranded version of SigmaDesigns' product. (In case you don't know, SigmaDesigns is a big name in hardware video decoding and they sell professional decoders for MPEG2, MPEG4, WMV, etc.)
The picture is always crisp and amazing (with good quality DVDs) apart from the FFWD issue with particular DVDs.
Among the things this products does is hardware scaling/smoothing of pictures so that they look really good at high resolutions. I even tried it on standalone MPEG1/MPEG2 files (not DVDs) and noticed that full-screen playback of these files using my decoder was significantly better than using Windows Media Player

When I tried to use WinDVD, which doesn't try to use any hardware decoders, but rather depends on your GPU to do some hardware operations and then does the rest in pure software, I noticed that the picture quality just didn't compare. Instead of watching the real "DVD quality" I'm used to, the picture was kind of dark, a bit fuzzy, had some jaggies, and low contrast. I tried a few of their "Movie Enhancement Effects", but they didn't help. It almost seemed as if I was watching a high-quality movie clip downloaded off the net rather than a DVD.

So I wanted to pose these questions here:
1. Is it possible that I got spoilt by hardware decoding so my expectations are much higher than people used to software decoding?
2. Or could it be that WinDVD/PowerDVD have some settings that I'm not aware of that could make the picture look better than the default settings. I have a P3 1GHz CPU(pretty old, I know), so could it be that software playback is capable of much better quality but it automatically drops down to low quality due to CPU speed?
3. Is anyone else using hardware decoding on a PC here? If so, what are you using and did you see the fast-forwarding problem on any of Evil Angel's Jule Jordan releases? (Also Zero Tolerance)
4. Do you know of independent DVD playback software that can detect and use hardware decoders? I'm talking about playback software that is not bundled with a particular hardware decoder. I believe Xing MPEG Player used to do this in the past, but I haven't checked the latest versions (if they're still in business).

GaySatyr
Senior Member

Half dirty ol' man; half horny ol' goat!
1684 Posts
10/00
Posted - Apr 6 2004 : 4:33PM
Hardware decoding is not necessarily better than software-based decoding -- it's just faster, especially if you have an under-powered computer. Essentially, hardware decoding is little more than a dedicated co-processor running a dedicated software decoding program stored in ROM rather than loaded from files on your hard disk. A hardware decoder allows your main processor to coast through DVD playback or give its attention to other tasks.

~ GaySatyr

jamesn
Senior Member

Cambridge, MA
750 Posts
1/04
Posted - Apr 7 2004 : 10:32PM
i'm a fan of media player classic, it's 1.2mb and free and it plays back dvds without problems for me--you can find it at http://sourceforge.net/projects/guliverkli/

i tried looking up that creative product to no avail, but i wouldn't be suprised if some of the newer commercial programs hiccup every now and then on a p3 at that speed.

Dick Johnson
Member

175 Posts
3/04
Posted - Apr 9 2004 : 4:19AM
JamesBoston: Thanks for the link. That Creative product is no longer available. Seems that the partnership between Creative and SigmaDesigns is no more. SigmaDesigns are pushing their own retail products (not just chips) these days.
The creative product is the same as SigmaDesign's Hollywood Plus decoder board.
They have a new product out that does h/w MPEG4 decoding.


GaySatyr: I fully understand the difference between h/w and s/w approaches to a problem. However, I think your analogy might be a little off here. A hardware decoder most probably wouldn't be like a second "general-purpose" processor running the decoding algorithm. Most likely it's a very specialized chip optimized for the graphics decoding operations and nothing more, which should make it at least an order of magnitude faster than, say, getting a 2nd general purpose CPU into your system.

Personally, here's how I think of it: a really old GeForce DDR is most probably still much faster than a P4 3.2GHz at rendering 3D, because it's very specialized.
Along the same lines, I was thinking: is hardware decoding still able to do much more expensive operations to refine picture quality that today's fastest CPUs still cannot perform at acceptable speeds?

daviangel
Member

Only time I would buy a girl flowers is if she was in the hospital
455 Posts
1/04
Posted - Apr 9 2004 : 5:40AM
1.Maybe in the past when videocards like the latest ati and nvidia cards didn't have mpeg-2 hardware encoders built into them. See this old review for example.
2. The type of videocard you have in your system which you didn't state will have a larger effect on the quality of your dvd output. Since even on the fast cpu's out there
The entire video decode process can consume up to 45 percent of it's total time if you have a crappy videocard. On the otherhand if you got one of the latest NVIDIA videocards it has a full-hardware MPEG-2 decoding engine that puts into silicon the technology to process and decode MPEG-2 video streams. However, playing DVD content also involves navigation of the DVD, parsing of the data streams, and decode and playback of the video and audio streams. Navigation refers to the graphical interface that allows a user to play, pause, fast- forward, reverse, select chapters, view angles, select language, and use parental controls. Several DVD navigation applications are available and may become part of the standard desktop user interface in the near future. The parsing function includes decrypting data from the DVD disc and separating video data from audio data. The audio data is typically decoded by the CPU and represents about a 5 percent overhead for most current CPUs. The Content Scrambling System (CSS) decryption also represents overhead of around 5 percent on current CPUs. NVIDIA’s VPE handles video decoding using hardware that implements the industry’s standard MPEG2 decode algorithm (Figure 1), which includes inverse quantization (IQ), inverse discrete cosine transform (IDCT), motion compensation, color space conversion (CSC) functions, as well as hardware subpicture alpha blending.
3. Yeah I'm using hardware decoding on my pc with powerdvd and an nvidia card and haven't had any problems with zero tolerance dvd's as far as I know but I'll have to find an evilangel dvd to check out.
4. Like I said I use powerdvd and to make sure it's using hardware you gotta check in the configuration tab to make sure it's on. Also you have to have hardware that is compatible
and if all that don't answer your question go here look around and I'm sure you'll find what you'r looking for
especially click on hardware decoders on your left there.

Edited by - daviangel on 4/9/2004 5:44:00 AM

 
GaySatyr
Senior Member

Half dirty ol' man; half horny ol' goat!
1684 Posts
10/00
Posted - Apr 9 2004 : 10:13AM
What I said was, "Essentially, hardware decoding is little more than a dedicated co-processor running a dedicated software decoding program stored in ROM rather than loaded from files on your hard disk." -- I would expect a dedicated co-processor to be very specialized and very much faster at its dedicated tasks -- not a second "general-purpose" processor running the decoding algorithm. In the old days, back when processors didn't have floating point operations built in, one purchased math co-processors in the form of i87, i287, or i387 chips, again, highly specialized chips.

The hardware solution to decoding video is available built into some add-on products and some video boards. It is still a more efficient solution than the software-only approach. However, with the serious horsepower available in today's computers, the hardware decoder solution has become less important; with older, slower machines, it was necessary.

My main computer has a 3.2GHz P4C, 2GB of DDR PC3200 SDRAM, and an ATI All-In-Wonder 9800 Pro video board which includes hardware decoding. I'm using PowerDVD software. Reproduction quality is limited only by what was encoded on the DVD, not by my system.

~ GaySatyr

Unicorn
Member

156 Posts
4/04
Posted - Apr 10 2004 : 5:06PM
What kind of video card do you have in that box?

ATI and nVIDIA both have DVD players optimized for their chipsets. They offload some of the rendering chores to their graphics processor and use the processors filtering features to sharpen things up a bit. Might be worth a look.

at 1600 x 1200 on a P3 and PC100 SDRAM, you are stressing your system by running everyting in software. The drivers are probably having to dial the quality back to keep the picture running smooth at 30fps.

If you are running an old video board....say a Trident blade with 2-4-8 megs of ram onboard, you may think about swapping out that card for say a low end ATI Radeon with 128 megs of ram. ATI bundles a DVD player with their card that's very good.

They have pretty good stuff in the $75-$100 range that will meet your needs. It is generally agreed ATI has an edge on nVIDIA in DVD playback and all around quality output.

I use Cyberlink's Power DVD and love it. Might be worth a look for you before you spend more money on silicon. They have the usual free download and 30 day trial thing at their site.


Hope this helps!

Unicorn

jamesn
Senior Member

Cambridge, MA
750 Posts
1/04
Posted - Apr 11 2004 : 3:07PM
i'm too lazy to look it up, but does his board support 8x agp like the cards mentioned? if not, maybe 25 dollars at newegg and a free pci slot could still save him some cpu cycles since i'd assume he'll upgrade within a year or so, and with pci-express probably replacing the current standard, getting anything but an budget card now is money that could go towards his next computer.
Dick Johnson
Member

175 Posts
3/04
Posted - Apr 16 2004 : 3:15AM
Thanks guys for all the replies.
So what video card do I have?
I'm too embarassed to say... it's a GeForce 2 Ultra :-)
*hides in shame*

I've been looking to upgrade for a year or so, but put the whole thing off when I heard about PCI Express as I wanted to make sure my new system uses it for many/most of the add-on cards.

I hope Nvidia releases a PCI-X version of their brand-new GeForce6


BTW, I didn't attempt to run software DVD playback at 16x12. I was just saying my h/w decoder supports that.

It seems that everyone on this thread actually recommends/users PowerDVD. I'll give them a shot.


daviangel
Member

Only time I would buy a girl flowers is if she was in the hospital
455 Posts
1/04
Posted - Apr 16 2004 : 4:52AM
Well if your waiting for pci-x you'll be waiting till the end of this year not to mention a pci-x vidcard will set you back at least $400+. Also there isn't very many motherboards with pci-x slots last time I checked.
Unicorn
Member

156 Posts
4/04
Posted - Apr 16 2004 : 10:18PM
Hold out until the fall for PCI express - dont buy anything new now.

Try Power DVD. Also search for NVDVD - nVIDIA's proprietary software DVD player. it may help. The G2 line was slammed pretty hard for MPEG video quality , but it's still a decent card.

Good luck!

Unicorn

Dick Johnson
Member

175 Posts
3/04
Posted - Apr 18 2004 : 11:53PM
Thanks Unicorn.
I do plan to wait since, having not upgraded my PC for so long, I do plan to buy new and I don't want to buy into a dying platform :-)

I'll also give the NvDVD a shot when I get a chance.




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