Even if a porn star loses sex appeal due to age, I still think they should stay if they enjoyy pleasing smaller audiences. Nina Hartley is fucking past forty. Ona Zee is very lust and is past forty. Why should these stars retire when they have a lot left in the tank in terms of sex appeal to their fans.

If performers especially female performers, perform past forty it will send a direct message that sex should not die with age. 90 year olds fuck for god's sake.

[Link]

I for one have always been attracted to older men (my husband is 23 years older than me).
Not just Rocco, but there are other porn guys over 40 who are still very, very hot. Randy Spears for another one. Tom Byron. I think Rocco is still hot, and I would let him spank me around any day!

I wouldn't be surprised if many of todays top guys are getting close or very close to 40. Sean Michaels, Mr. Marcus, Mark Davis, Evan Stone, TT Boy - all the guys that were working in the early 90s. Do the math - if they were 22 then, they are in their mid-30s now.
But I think they all still look great and sexy, and I think that since guys mature mentally later than women, I think that an older guy brings a certain sophistication to a scene.

[Link]

As for male stars,the first point to make is that female
preferences simply count for very little,as the overwhelming
viewership of porn is male.

Further,when women do watch porn(or, more precisely,react sexually to it)they do so in a fundamentally different fasion:for a women, the male in the scene is not a sex object;rather,she subjectively identifies with the female
actor and,to some extent,becomes her.She becomes a sexual object that men react to and seek out.

This is the reason you don't sell beefcake magazines
to women;since there are no women in the pictures for female viewers to identify with,they produce no sexual reaction.
They are marketed,rather,to gay men.

As for older male stars being to old for the job,I'd have
to say that's a more difficult question to answer but I suppose it's similiar to the question of why are most athletes in their twenties:thats when their bodies are
at their physical best.

In sport and sex,strength,fitness
and skill always lean toward the young.

[Link]

btw, have you ever read the reactions of say Canadian Girl or gbg32 to some of the male performers of the week? Very interesting stuff.




nietzsche said:
"Ernest Hemingway wrote for the Toronto Star before he became a novelist. I only bring it up to show that I know things."

[Link]

I loved the scene she did with Manuel Ferrara (28 years old) in 'The Pussy is not Enough 2'. There should be more scenes of older women/younger men.

I can tell you, when I'm watching a Rocco scene, I'm not saying to myself, "now I can pretend to be Kelly Stafford, or Catherine Count, or Judy White, or Sabina Mallory, or Elizabeth from "Rocco invades Poland". Why??? Because I'm too busy watching Rocco. I'm endlessly fascinated with the way he moves his body, how he effortlessly switches between 4 different variations of spooning, to 3 variations of doggy, and so on. And just keeping up with his constant talking takes concentration, too.

I think you have us women confused with all the male porn fans who like POV scenes, because they want to imagine themselves with their favorite starlet, and most definitely don't want to see or hear the actual guy in the scene. I can tell you, watching those POV scenes are a turn off to me, since I'm desperate to see what the actor is like, and see him interact with the actress.

[Link]

That a few individuals deviate profoundly from the norm for
their sex in no way implies that sex differences are not
real or that they they do not have major consequences for behaviour.

The fact that there are tens of thousands of gay men in
a society does not mean that heterosexuality does not exist
there also or that it does not differ profoundly from
homosexuality.

One could easily cite case after case of men who are more
inclined in psychology and temperament towards women:being
indifferent to visual stimulation,being attracted to a specific person rather than the entire opposite sex,
abhoring violance,etc.

I would suspect that many of the women that post on sites
such as this one perhaps differ psychologically to some
extent from average women,though I have no way of really
knowing.

But what proves, more than anything else,that what I wrote
about sex diffrences is true is the market;that the overwhelming number of purchasers of visual erotica
are men is something anyone in the industry can tell you
because there livelihood depends on knowing whom to market
their product to.If there was the slightest hint of a
substantial female market for these products,someone would
have provided it long ago.But the market does not exist.

Rene also states that she never imagines herself to be
a specific women while watching these films,but that's
not what I really ment;a women viewing an erotic film
becomes,by identifying in her mind with the female actor,
an object of sexual desire,someone that men find irresistible.I don't mean she wants to actually be,say,
Mary B. or Jane C.Indeed, this is the same effect that
women seek to produce by reading Harlequin fiction;by identifying with the female protagonist, an average or
plain reader can imagine herself cherished and adored
by men.None of this ,of course,is remotely related to the
male pattern of OBJECTIFING THE OPPOSITE SEX AS AN OBJECT
OF PURELY SEXUAL INTEREST.

As for walter burn's statement how come so many female viewers are watching gay porn,until I really have some idea of
the numbers of these viewers and their motivations for
viewing it,I can give no answer.

[Link]

The baby boomers are still very active consumers. The bottom line is king.

[Link]

When I've read women's magazine articles about porn (such as Bust magazine's sex issue in 2002), the women wanted to see some decently portrayed sex scenes. No circus acts, no extreme anal stuff, no fake breasts or overly made-up women. One of the things that came through in the article, which reviewed Vivid/Wicked type movies, was that the women watching them felt that the plots/acting were ridiculous/bad, enough that it took away from enjoying the sex scenes. They didn't want to see a Harlequin Romance brought to life on a DVD, that's for certain.

d3pr4v3d m4n14c, in the recent interviews that Rocco has given to the Italian press, he does mention that his 80 year old father has confessed to still needing sex at least twice a week, and that he (the father, not Rocco) has spent his lifetime searching out sexual adventures.

Edited by - Renee on 7/7/2004 10:24:59 PM

[Link]

And the responses of Harlequin readers to their stories,
becoming sexually aroused by subjectively identifying
with a an attractive,sexy,utterly irresistible women is,i'm afraid, the precise manner in which the great majority
of those interviewees also respond to their erotica.

[Link]

But enough about my opinions. Let's hear from some other women. The following is from the article "The Ratings Game" in the Fall 2002 issue of Bust magazine (sold at Borders), in which seven women rated several porn videos. The women were between the ages of 23-33; the videos were recommended by a women's sex toy shop in Madison, Wisconsin:

'Edge Play', from Veronica Hart/VCA.
Everyone like the plot line, which provided for many different kinds of sex. On the flip side, no one like the gang bangs. Also, besides the regular in-and-out penetration and lots of bj's, there was one double penetration scene consisting of two men having vaginal sex with one woman at the same time. How the condoms didn't catch on each other and rupture was beyond me. Besides that, we all wondered how many women actually fantasize about giving that much head. Overall Rating: 5.

'Three Daughters', from Candida Royalle.
Three Daughters had no money shots, no penetration shots and actresses with natural bodies, who really seemed to be getting enjoyment from sex. With the exceptions of two of the viewers who like things a little more hardcore, the women viewers enjoyed these attributes and particularly like the rampant cunnilingus scenes. One problem we had was that although the youngest daughter was supposed to be pre-med, she had no clue about things like masturbation and natural female lubrication. I mean, come on. It might be porn, but we like our heroines a little smarter. Overall Rating: 7.

'Love's Passion', from Veronica Hart/VCA
One woman viewer beat us all to the punch by saying, "I wish it would have ended much sooner." The acting was bad (though the women did seem to be having orgasms), the romance plot was corny, and everyone was pissed that the main character was reunited with her loser ex-boyfriend by the end. On the plus side, there is one amazing cunnilingus scene that I wouldn't recommend trying without a net. Overall Rating: 3.3.

'Blue Movie', from Michael Zen/Dig. Playground
This was easily the viewers' favorite movie. It held our attention and was very campy-funny. Though the breasts were ridiculously fake, we viewers were assuaged by the sexy actors and brilliant costumes, which were seemingly made of random feathers and strips of latex left around the studio. Sadly, Blue Movie follows the money shot/ close-up pattern of so many other videos. However, one viewer like the fact that "the women weren't bossed around like mindless idiots," and liked the last scene with the cross-dressing director. Overall Rating: 8.5."

There you have it, a nice cross section of what a group of women liked (cunnilingus, natural bodies, sexy actors, good costumes, actresses looking liked they enjoyed the sex or had orgasms) and disliked (fake breasts, double penetrations, too much emphasis on blowjobs/close-ups/cum shots, corny or illogical plots, bad acting). Notice that no one said she wished the movie could be more like a romance novel. The women want to see sex scenes, not some bodice ripper come to life.

And then there are us women who prefer gonzo movies (like moi). A recent female poster here on ADT put her porn wants/needs quite eloquently; I hope she doesn't mind me quoting from this thread:

"Yes, I am a woman, no I do not want a lame story, badly acted. I want good sex scenes!!!! No anal, no facial cum shots, nothing too rough, lots of licking, 69 would be nice, great, slow, insertions, and please, please, please, nice HARD cocks!!!!"

don juan, non of these women is saying she wants to imagine herself as some sex object in the movies she's watching. All anyone wants is to see some hot sex, decently filmed.

To get back on topic, I would give my eyeteeth to see Rocco do a hot, one-on-one, non-anal scene with someone who he was deeply attracted to. Something tells me that he'll retire before this ever happens.

[Link]

Can some women learn to enjoy sexual films?Of course!
Just as some men,for various reasons,can develop a taste
for cross dressing.But the fact that some men are
able to get significant sexual gratifaction from this
practice doesn't imply that most are capable as well.

That some(small) number of women can be aroused in
a male fashion doesnt mean that all females share
this capacity.
I suspect that were you to query your women friends
and acquaintances about how they tend to react towards
more conventional male-female relations as depicted
in straight Hollywood films,for example,the mechanism
I described above would be revealed to you in a very convincing manner.

[Link]

Maybe pornography is shut out in the upraising/education/peer-groups of girls more than in that of boys.
Boys/young men "learn" it, girls don't.
OTOH magazines for teenagers had bare-breasted boys and stuff on the girls pages. Did they place these photographs there for the adolescent male homosexual or for the girls?

Hypothesis:
If women had to do the service in the army, where many men get confronted with porn, i.e. learn to use pornography, in a quite open manner, women would consume more porn.
Maybe the porn industry should start a campaign for conscript armies and mandatory armed-forces-service for women.

And in sports: How old was Paula Newby-Fraser when she won her last Iron (Wo)man-Events at Hawaii?
Have you ever seen the body of a 40-year old-plus female hobby triathlete?
Way more hot than the usual 18-year old girl suffering from adipositas and hotter than a cheer-leader.

[Link]

Women in the modern world have every convenience to seek
out,purchase and view adult films in the privacy of their
own homes.They can order them anonymously over the inter-
net so as to avoid the social opprobrium that many people
believe is the real factor hindering them from enjoying this type of entertainment.
That virtually no women avail themselves of this opportunity
is a telling comment on the nature of the human female.

The women featured in magazine spreads who are beyond the
usual age of nubility are usually the focus of attention
for utterly different reasons than their looks,most often having to do
with notoriety in entertainment,politics,bussiness or
some other field.Unkown middle-aged females are virtually
never encountered in this medium.

Some men may find older women attractive for various
reasons but if you watch porn regularly or subscribe to
print or online men's magazines that only stay in business
providing men with what they really are willing to pay for,
you know something real about the world

[Link]

From the Mercury News
Posted on Fri, Sep. 05, 2003

Ladies who like it

Porn loses stigma for women as mores change and erotica caters to their tastes

By Michelle Quinn

Mercury News

Alone at home at the end of a hard day, a woman takes a moment from her endless responsibilities to savor a moment of peace and quiet.

And pops in a porn video.

Thanks to the Internet, mail-order video and DVD rental outlets, plus a general shift in sexual mores, a small but growing number of women are turning up the heat in their sex lives by turning to erotica and pornography.

Adult video and toy stores are catering to women with clean, well-lighted places to peruse sexual material and products geared for their enjoyment. Books such as ``The Ultimate Guide to Adult Videos,'' to be released in October by Cleis Press, are aimed at pornography neophytes, especially women, says Chris Fox, publicity coordinator at Cleis. ``People don't think of women as porn consumers.''

And why should they? For many, women buying and watching pornography is still taboo. The mere idea questions assumptions about women's sexuality: that women aren't visually stimulated. That women prefer bodice-ripper romance novels to explicit videos and pornographic photos. That women feel it's immoral or anti-feminist to buy and watch pornography.

Psychologists, sex researchers and those who sell pornography say women's interest in pornography has been spurred by changes in contemporary culture, from the privacy afforded by the Internet to the trendiness of sex in TV's ``Sex and the City'' and other mainstream entertainment.

``Women are more comfortable about sexuality,'' says Lonnie Barbach, psychologist and author of many books, including the 1975 how-to-become-orgasmic classic ``For Yourself.'' ``Every year, the culture gets more open.''

Harrison Voight, clinical psychologist and professor of human sexuality at the California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco, agrees.

``Women historically have had the strongest restraints and constraints taught to them by the culture,'' Voight says. ``Women had to be in love all the time, to disdain sex for the sake of sex. Now women are getting close to a male style of sexuality.''

No one agrees about the definitions, but erotica is most often described as soft pornography and tends to include male and/or female nudity with simulated or soft-focus sex. Pornography is generally defined as depicting graphic sex with little attention to the back story. ``Pornography is really hard core,'' Voight says. ``Many critics argue that it more clearly objectifies women as sex objects. Erotica is designed to be a vivid portrayal of sexual activity, but the sex is not portrayed in a way that objectifies people.''

However, others use the terms ``erotica'' and ``porn'' interchangeably. They say the differences between the two are non-existent. Erotica may just have nicer furniture than pornographic videos.

Hot Stuff, a sex supplies and video store in Santa Clara, tries to make women feel comfortable with open blinds, top-40 music and a women-only sales staff. Female customers stop in at lunch or after work to plan bachelorette parties, check out the accessories such as boas and buy videos. The most popular videos, says saleswoman Kristina Gomez, are ones that tell stories.

Two women shopping together recently at Hot Stuff for lingerie giggled at the store's toys and sexually explicit greeting cards.

One, a 42-year-old from San Jose, says she began to watch pornography to indulge her husband. At first, it made her feel squeamish, she said. ``I could never do that in front of a camera,'' she adds. But now she will watch it alone.

Another customer at Hot Stuff shopping for high-heeled shoes says she too was drawn into watching pornography by her boyfriend.

The Santa Clara woman, 46 and currently laid off from her technology sales job, says she watches videos alone at her boyfriend's house. But not at home -- where her grown kids live with her. ``I don't want to get busted,'' she says. ``They are probably OK with it, but not for Mom.''

The couple watches a range of pornography including stories with bondage, she says, ``but nothing too twisted.''

``I like classic porn.'' she says. ``I like a story.''

``Context'' is what women want, says Carol Queen, staff ``sexologist'' at Good Vibrations, a cooperative of stores in San Francisco that sells sex toys, books and videos. ``They want to know why are these two people or five people or 15 people having sex right now?''

For years, lesbian customers have been a pornography niche market. Now, straight, suburban females may represent a new market to retailers like Good Vibrations, which last year launched a national advertising campaign in mainstream magazines such as Ladies' Home Journal, Cosmopolitan, Us and Marie Claire.

Since then, mail-order and online business has increased 10 percent, says marketing manager Thomas Roche.

``There is an untapped market of women who won't go to video stores,'' says Anh Tran, who runs WantedList.com, an online service for ordering adult DVDs. ``Reaching out and getting that market is where the real money is to be made.''

And what do women buy and watch? According to Roche, it's difficult to generalize, but women tend to like videos that focus on ``natural-looking'' women (those without breast implants). Women like to see women, not just men, enjoying sex. And female viewers like a positive attitude about women and sex.

Among female customers, top-selling videos are ones with strong female actors or with female directors. Some actresses have turned to directing, such as Veronica Hart, Candida Royalle and Chloe.

Of course, the debate over whether pornography is good or bad extends to women. Many therapists say they see no harm for either sex as long as it doesn't become a compulsion. Some raise questions with women about porn consumption as they would with men: Is it a way to escape? Is it about power? Or anger?

Others object to any pornography being available. ``I would vigorously dispute that this stuff is beneficial to women,'' says Patrick McGrath, director of media relations at Morality in Media Inc., a New York-based organization that works to get federal and state obscenity statutes enforced. He said the pornography industry produces work that often portrays women in an offensive or degrading light. ``I would question the efficacy of this material.''

Violet Blue, author of the upcoming ``The Ultimate Guide to Adult Videos,'' agrees that the pornography industry has a lengthy record of making movies that denigrate women. ``A lot of women have seen something that has turned them off,'' she says.

It's possible to avoid the offensive, Blue says, by finding out which movies are directed by women or have actors who have refused to be in movies with sexist stereotypes.

In the past five years, the number of female directors of pornographic video and film has increased from a handful to 30, compared to about 200 male porn directors.

Jewel De'Nyle, 27, is one of the newest pornography directors, aiming for a wider market. A porn star too, she runs Platinum X Pictures, which makes some films targeted for women. Her No. 1 seller is ``Dirty Girls.'' ``Guys enjoy it, lesbians enjoy it and straight married people enjoy it.''
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From tinynibbles.com

Women watch porn, Fastfacts:

In a new study by Glamour Magazine to be released this Fall, 87% of women between the ages of 25-39 state that they consume and enjoy porn as part of their self-defined healthy sexual lifestyles, more than report using sex toys, having sex with food, or experimenting with new sex acts such as anal sex.

In late 2003, Neilsen Netratings revealed that 1 in 3 users of porn were women. Over 9 million American women accessed adult sites in September 2003 alone. According to Internet Filter Review, 13% of women are accessing porn at work.

In the past five years, the number of female directors of porn video and film has increased from a handful to 30, compared to about 200 male porn directors. (Mercury News 9.5.03)

As of 2003, only 4% of today's (non-erotic, Hollywood) films are directed by women. (BUST winter .03)

In 2002, over eight million adult videos and DVD were rented in America. 30% of those rentals went to women and "couples." (Adult Video News 1.03)

In women-friendly boutiques such as Good Vibrations, women make up 80% of the porn rental and purchase market (2003). These figures are never included in mainstream journal statisitcs (such as AVN).

In a 1987 Redbook survey of over 26,000 female respondents, nearly half stated that they regularly used porn.

In the 1996 book Defending Pornography by ACLU president Nadine Strossen, "Women, either singly or as part of a couple, constitute more than 40 percent of the adult videotape rental audience. . ."

In 1989, Good Vibrations added adult videos to their catalog, at the behest (demand) of female staff and customers.

don I'd encourage you not to confuse cause and effect, I think that most porn (movies) are crap, women don't generally want to spend money on crap, ergo they don't buy as much porn.

donjuan wrote

I have read this bit about about female preferences not counting and similar sentiments on this board frequently.They may not yet count as a marketing demographic although the stats above will show that's changing but female prefernces do count in more subtle ways. Can I just put a slightly different spin on that, one that is more personal? If we move beyond the solitary male masturbator perhaps into the realm of couples who watch porn together and we'll use a hetero couple (cos that's what I know)from my experience the viewing preferences of the female partner do count. We use porn as sex toy if you like ,my partner chooses not to watch porn alone, we watch together, I generally buy the porn we watch, we choose together what we watch on any given occasion.

And finally for what it's worth I think Rocco at forty is very hot and Randy Spears is sexier in the last few years than he's ever been. My husband at forty one is a lean, fit sex god. Age has nothing to do with attractiveness in my opinion.

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As long as actors/actresses are attractive and appealing performers, there should be no arbitrary age limits.
Many of us "baby boomers" grew up along with the porn industry. There is a definite market for hot, attractive women in their 30s, 40s, 50s and even 60s.
Give me an older women who still looks hot, knows how to dress and make herself up, and can carry on a conversation any day.

Some clever director will finally come out with a series featuring hot older women getting done by young studs (clean-cut and mannerly please... no parolees). Women 39+ with studs no older than 25 :)
Besides, wasn't this part of all of our teenage masturbatory repertoires?

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Yes, a good bit of what they sell is the Wicked/Vivid variety of porn. However, they also sell titles like 'The Fashionistas', Belladonna's Evil Pink, Seymore Butt's films, Shane's World, and assorted offerings from John Leslie and Rocco Siffredi, even some of the Animal Trainer ones.

Will you find anything from RLD or Anabolic in their catalogs? No, for obvious reasons.

I think Loraine is correct, a lot of these women-focused businesses don't get counted well in the AVN type statistics.

Somewhere recently, I read that Adam & Eve, the big sex toy/porn mail order company, reported that around a quarter of their customers are female.

[Link]

Or this one?
"I don't watch porn because, blabla... And this guy from the other company had these bizarre-terminally-perverted mags, which showed (what God/Jahwe/Allah/the concerned botanist/the gynecologist forbid)." "Yeah, that is disgusting. We also had such a guy , but he had even more disgusting magazines, which showed..." and so on.

I do not believe porn producers make their profit with one consumer per company.
But I would be interested what happens to the relationship of USA and Austria relationship, if the CIA gets the information that Austria's biggest selling hardcore magazine (biweekly) sells more copies (60000+ IIRC) than our TIME-equivalent (weekly) and extrapolates our military strength from this data.

I am not surprised that "87% of women between the ages of 25-39 state that they consume and enjoy porn" (see Loraine's post).

Chances are that there are more well-known people in the age of 30+ than in the age of Jailbait+, e.g.
Why should Playboy, FHM and so on shoot a pictorial with an unknown middle-aged, if virtually every Hollywood-Star, e.g., is 30+ to 40-something, and willing to pose?

Interestingly when I buy a copy of Private^WChristian Morality Today at the magazine-store I see a bunch of magazines called "40+" or something. And isn't there even a generic term called MILF in the adult industry.
And the low cost magazines one encountered in the Army ;-) starred plenty of women in 30+/40+.

I would even say most men (beginning from age 30+) do not prefer the *look* of let's say 18-23 year old-women.

For the mainstream world (ads, fashion models, etc)
Anyway it is easier for the photographer, lighting chief, make-up dept. to make a 16 year old look like 27, than to make a 31-year old look like a 18 year-old.

For mainstream and hardcore:
Maybe most models reevaluate their life in the late 20ies, new job-alternatives arise, think about founding a family?
And come to think of it modelling, wether hardcore or fashion/ads seems to be a part-time job for most models, which they use to finance their education. And once they have finished their education, there is no need for this part-time job anymore.

[1]
Zarter (german) = tender person

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don juan - unless you are a female, don't assume that you're the authority on females. NOT all females like porn. NOT all females LEARNED to like it - believe it or not, some like it for the EXACT same reasons guys like it - to arouse them and to get off from it.

finally - even though you are a human, please also don't assume that you are the authority on all people.

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Vicky Vette - wasn't she the girl who complained about being raped on set , before returning again to the industry ? I'm fairly sure I read somewhere that things were not entirely as she claimed them to be . Girl who cried wolf ? - No way I'm gonna pay to watch her until I find out .

This discussion about women's tastes in erotica/pornography is kind of interesting and all , but isn't it a little premature to make any conclusions about this stuff ? It wasn't so long ago that women started going in large numbers to see stripers ( it was too socially unacceptable before ) . Give it time and I think the number of women openly admitting to watching porn will increase too .

About a month back now there was a discussion about porn on The Write Stuff - a panel based talk show on channel 5 , Britain's 5th largest terrestrial (free to air) channel - and the result was a real shock to me . The show goes out live at 10:00 am so obviously there weren't any graphic descriptions , and it was a little handicapped in that respect . But what was interesting was the tone of discussion - very relaxed , no nervous tittering - and the general consensus - porn is fine as long as it doesn't take over your life ( like anything ) .

Incidentally the panel comprised of 2 men and 2 women , with none of them particularly noted for being liberal . Actually both of the women are quite conservative , and yet didn't feel the need to bash porn to propagate their media careers . The audience and phone-ins , again 50/50 men women , were also on the whole very favourable to the idea of porn . The couple of anti-porners the producers had shipped in to argue the other side of the piece looked pretty isolated by the close .

Anyway , just a sign that times could be changing ...

[Link]

When one uses words like "few","small","most",ect.,it's
against the background of actual numbers that they have any meaning.When I apply these terms to porn I'm thinking
of the 250 plus million people that live in the US.

Consider the world of cross dressing.I'm sure there are
web sites centered around cross dressing.If I were to
visit such a site,I suspect I'd see articles titled
"Frequency of cross dressing up 50 percent since 1994",
"More men coming to embrace cross dressing","Cross
dressing in the military:a growing practice" and so on.

The site would showcase dvds like "She-males from Bolivia
vol.14"It would conduct interviews with devotees
concerning their opinions regarding the perfect
cross dressing film, with thousands of posters
arguing on the merits of plot,attire acting,etc.

Many members would volunteer long personal histories of
how they overcame years of fear and shame to publicly embrace this practice and how they now want to help others
to embrace it as well.

To the members of this website,it would seem that cross
dressing must be a rapidly growing fashion and that
they are not that exceptional after all but rather
simply pioneers of a trend bound to become mainstream in a very short while.

But we know that this is not the case.We know that cross dressing will never become more then the pursuit of a
small number of enthusiasts.

In the same manner,sane people understand that porn
will never become adopted by women to any great extent.
While a very small number may enjoy this commodity,I think it is fair to say that the average women would be as excited
by pornography roughly to the same extent she would be by
reading the newest installment of The Bulletin of the
Atomic Scientists

If others think,as I do,that this thread has run on far too long,let me summarize and conclude:

1)Men are strongly aroused by pornographic imagery;
to men, the women(the more the merrier)in these
pictures and films are sex objects and men take
them out of the picture and have mental sex with
them.
2)Women are largely indifferent to porn;however
they can,if they allow themselves,become sexually
aroused by this material by imagining themselves
as the objects of male passion

That is all there is to it.We began this thread with Shakespeare;let's end with Rocco's own countryman.

Ladies and gay lovers young!
Long live Bacchus,live desire!
Dance and play;let songs be sung;
Let sweet love your bosoms fire;
In the future come what may!
Youths and maids,enjoy today!
Nought ye know about tommorow.
Fair is youth and void of sorrow;
But it hourly flies away.

Lorenzo de' Medici

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I don't care how old he is. No one does it for me like Rocco, period. I'm ruined for life when it comes to porn unless he seriously schools some new guy in the Ways of Rocco. Thank God for his huge catalog of DVD's available for sale.

"Oh yes nasty....more, more!"

Why Rocco? For many of the same reasons Renee stated. First of all, he fills the scene with so much, it's not just endless Viagra infused thrusting. He talks the whole time which I love. I love how he is rough yet somehow gentle at the same time. He just seems passionate to me, which is what most male performers are lacking in my opinion.

I think it was Animal Trainer 4 in the scene in France with Catherine Count and Amanda Angel, he is fucking her throat so hard that all her makeup has run down her tear and mascara stained cheeks. He looks her in the eye and tells her she is beautiful. How do you NOT love this guy??

After watching him In Rocco's Way to Love, his scene with Catherine Count was, to me, one of the hottest scenes ever. They both truly looked like they were seriously enjoying themselves. It's almost as if he taunts you to bring your A game to the set, then he gently guides you over the edge so you WANT to push your own limits, not only to please him, but to please yourself.

Rocco invades Poland, Rocco and Agnes. If there were more scenes like this one in porn, I think more women would run out and buy DVD's for themselves or for their significant others. There is so much going on in this scene and frankly, you almost have to watch it a few times to take it all in.

Our local video store has a rather limited selection. So we brought home In the Garden of Shadows by Ninn Worx the other day. In the first scene Anais keeps telling the guy she is with, "Harder! More! Spank me! Harder!" I remember thinking no matter how hard he tried, he was not going to satisfy this girl. Though when it was her turn to give a bj, she did the same half way job the guy gave her. I felt a sense of satisfaction in that! Thinking that Rocco would have made her want to go so deep all her black eyeliner would have been around her knees in an effort to please him the way he did her.

As I said, I am wrecked for life. There is porn, good porn, then there is Rocco, in my book.

Edited by - ~Ami on 7/11/2004 8:26:32 AM

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I am PROUD to have introduced so many women friends to Rocco/Buttman movies, in the last 10 years. I personally want to thAnk the entire staff of Evil Angel for existing, because sharing your work with women friends (and not always as a prelude or teaser or accomplice to sex) has been a great pleasure that has extended over the years -- it's a fantastic bonding experience, because you learn which of your friends is really open to this stuff, and I am happy to say that Evil Angel product has BUILT friendships for me. No shit. Fashionistas testimonials roll in TO THIS DAY. Chicks dig it. And, yes, I have ENJOYED BETTER SEX because Rocco was in the house! I can't carry his lumber, but he has carried mine! (So to speak).

Rock on.

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Don Juan - I agree that the women on MilfHunter quite obviously have over inflated ages , but 23 seems a little inaccurate as an average . It's probably nearer 30 .

Your attempted parallels between porn viewership and cross dressing are intriguing to me . What exactly inspired you to make that connection ? The basis of cross dressing is as a fundamental part of someone's sexuality , while watching porno is merely a form of entertainment ( for most viewers ) often resulting in sexual release . I think the comparison is pretty shaky , and would suggest something more obviously related . Perhaps horror flicks ?

Don't forget as well that much of the furor that has existed over pornographic films also at one time extended to all the other art forms . Book based erotica , now largely the preserve of women ironically , was once viewed as being just as dangerous as the moving image now is . Each medium has its day in the sun , where those most fearful of change get the chance to bash the new terror , before settling into a safe position of sufferance . All I'd suggest is that we're too early in this pattern with movies to truly get a sense of what the end demographic of viewership will look like .

I do agree with you though that there are some differences in the sexual makeup of men and women . However I doubt they're half as significant as you would claim them to be . Are men more visually oriented ? Sure . And do women ascribe higher importance to the emotional undercurrent ? Probably . But the number of girls pinching my butt every time I go clubbing is a constant reminder of just how similar we can be .

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Your pseudo-intelligent psychological chatter really really bores me (YAWN) (YAWN) (YAWN) (YAWN)

Night-Night

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I started watching porn at 22 and back then I liked to see young guys getting the pussy; Tom Byron was my hero then. Now I'm over 40 and the identification mechanism must have kicked in, because while I enjoy seeing porn jocks in their prime like Eric Everhard and Manuel Ferrara in action, I do get a kick out of seeing the veterans in action as well.

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But it is the result that counts.
And the result in watching erotica is - forgive me for oversimplifying and speaking french - getting a hard-on or getting wet.

This can be measured and you get hard facts, instead of the common blabla psychologists and social scientists produce, when they think they do biomedical research, neither having a clue of the relevant data they need, nor how to get the data and design a proper experiment.

man vaginal photoplethysmograph
man penile strain gauge

I strongly recommend to read a little bit of Camille Paglia, or even better some Bulletins of Physiologists.

I am sad to inform you, that you failed in "Sociopsychological Pornophysiology 101" this semester.
I recommend to read the following articles, if you plan to take this course again.

Early-phase physiological response patterns to psychosexual stimuli: comparison of male and female patterns.
Rubinsky,-H-J; Eckerman,-D-A; Rubinsky,-E-W; Hoover,-C-R. Arch-Sex-Behav. 1987 Feb; 16(1): 45-56

The onset and sequential changes of psychosexual arousal for male and female were compared. During an erotic film presentation, genital hemodynamic and groin skin temperature measures of sexual arousal recorded moderate to large increases for both sexes. A sequential analysis revealed strikingly similar male-female response patterns for both the genital and groin measures of arousal. Thus, the commonly held view that males typically show a greater sexual responsivity to visual erotic stimuli than do females was not supported.

Men's and women's reactions to sexually explicit films: a serendipitous finding.
Hatfield,-E; Sprecher,-S; Traupmann,-J
Arch-Sex-Behav. 1978 Nov; 7(6): 583-92

[...] We also attempted to determine whether men and women differed in how easily they became aroused by sexually explicit films. We found that they did not.

Edited by - Zartyr on 7/11/2004 2:05:08 PM

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Like I said, I enjoy a good Rocco scene because of the way he moves, and the way he interacts with his partners on screen. It's not a whole lot different than my enjoyment of a good ballet scene on PBS's Great Performances. I don't imagine myself as the prima ballerina; I want to see her and her partner do an excellant pas de deux .

I agree with Ami, I think a lot more women would be interested in porn if they could see someone with great moves and screen presense like Rocco, though I do understand he's not every woman's cup of tea. She is right, too many porn actors move literally like pieces of lumber, without much finesse or style, and with little real interaction with their co-stars. Fortunately, most of Rocco's stuff has been filmed with long and medium shots, so you can see all of him, rather than those mind-numbing close-ups that put your brain to sleep. (I've also watched the Rocco/Agnes scene at least 6 times, what a pairing!).

As for women having access to porn, there are some women's magazines out there that openly advertise sex toy businesses. Next time you are at Borders or Barnes & Noble, check out Bust magazine, which is usually in the Ethnic/Alternative lifestyles section. One of my latest issues has 14 ads for sex toys websites, and about a third of these also sell DVD's. This is an important way that many women find their way to porn.

One of my favorite ads from Bust magazine, for obvious reasons:

P.S. Skronker, why don't you send a little thank-you note to Rocco?

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What is important are not differences in arousal
to erotic stimuli but the manner in which that arousal is elicited.

Rene,the aspects that you list as being important for
making a quality erotic film may be valid but these
considerations rarely enter into men's enjoyment of porn.

Indeed, the only thing porn is designed to provide is
SEXUAL VARIETY: fresh faces and fresh bodies.

It may sound primitive to you but it's true:not the
"emotional connection during a scene",not how an actor "mov
es", not the special clothing-not anything at all, just an endless conveyer belt of new female flesh.

Because women don't experience a desire for sexual variety,
this aspect of the male psyche is intuitively incomprehensible to them.But rest assured, it is there.

The only thing stopping men from experiencing this
variety in real life is the fact that their last names
aren't Getty, Rockefeller or Rothschild.

Although a woman may enjoy watching an erotic flim, she surely
would never choose to actually have sex in real life with the actors in the film. Would this apply to men?Do we wish only
to experience this on the level of art, entertainment and
high fantasy?

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

We REALLY want to have sex with the women in the movies!
But since the title "Sultan of Brunei" is already taken,
we read reviews at adultdvdtalk.com.Don't believe any man if
he tells you anything other than what I've just said.

Edited by - don juan on 7/12/2004 11:23:03 AM

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[sarcasm] Gee, thanks for telling me how I feel about porn, and the feelings that I have when watching porn - I think. [/sarcasm]

Edited by - DenverDon on 7/12/2004 12:25:15 AM

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Before one bets, one should do a little research. One does not even have to go to the library, simple googleing will do; "male female arousal erotica" and click on the first match.

-quote-
As with previous research, the researchers found that men responded consistent with their sexual orientations. In contrast, both homosexual and heterosexual women showed a bisexual pattern of psychological as well as genital arousal. That is, heterosexual women were just as sexually aroused by watching female stimuli as by watching male stimuli, even though they prefer having sex with men rather than women.
-quote end-

I would say chances are high that women get the "slighest degree of arousal towards depictions of solo men" reading this and regarding various TV-commercials featuring bare-breasted and more or less nude men, hearing women that they love "Snatch", because Brad Pitt's body is so hot, and that the the vast majority of attendants at a Chippendale's performance does not consist of gay crossdressers but women, actually.

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Zartyr provided this material:

-quote-
As with previous research, the researchers found that men responded consistent with their sexual orientations. In contrast, both homosexual and heterosexual women showed a bisexual pattern of psychological as well as genital arousal. That is, heterosexual women were just as sexually aroused by watching female stimuli as by watching male stimuli, even though they prefer having sex with men rather than women.
-quote end-

I would say chances are high that women get the "slighest degree of arousal towards depictions of solo men" reading this and regarding various TV-commercials featuring bare-breasted and more or less nude men, hearing women that they love "Snatch", because Brad Pitt's body is so hot, and that the the vast majority of attendants at a Chippendale's performance does not consist of gay crossdressers but women, actually.

That's right,Zartyr old boy,"just as sexually aroused
by watching FEMALE STIMULI as by watching male ".This is
the very process of arousal through subjective identification that I've been trying to convey to you.

The "by watching male" almost certainly means heterosexual
activity or couples sex;the prior, two females together;
in both cases arousal for women is centered on other
women.

The silliness of Chippendales I won't even bother to
discuss.

Consider, for a moment, a man that looks rather like Brad
Pitt,Chad Peters,let's say,an unedjucated,semi-employed
construction worker, lacking all fame or notoriety:
what level of attractiveness would this person possess
for most women?

In the second case,imagine a poor,unemployed,partially
educated women that just so happens to bear a striking
resemblance to Tera Patrick:what degree of attractiveness
would this person possess for most men?

What do you conclude from these two examples?

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How can women center their arousal on women pictured in a movie, when they are watching male-male fellatio, and male-male anal penetration?
(Oh, I am sure your wisdom, insight and experience will deliver you some explanation that does not contradict your beliefs.)

-quote from Material&Methods-
[...]
Each participant saw films featuring female-female oral sex, female-female penetration (with a strap-on dildo), male-female cunnilingus, male-female penetration (penile-vaginal), male-male fellatio, and male-male penetration (penile-anal). [...]
-material&Methods-quote-end-

-quote from Results-
[...]Similarly, heterosexual women were slightly, but not significantly, more genitally aroused by films depicting male-male sex acts than by films depicting male-female sex acts, t(22)=.9, p=.4.
-quote from results - end

AFAICS men and women do not watch a strip show for the purpose of seeing a performer waving around with results of IQ-tests, higher education diplomas and paychecks, but simply to see beautiful naked bodies in motion.

I also gave the example of Brad Pitt in "Snatch" . By any means, he plays a poor, unemployed, partially
educated men in this movie.

BTW, I have better things to do, than do discuss with someone, who is either is a firm believer in how he thinks the world goes or should go around - which can be interesting or even quite funny for some time - or someone who shows a special mixture of very high levels of ignorance, incompetence and indolence - which only is (exuse me for shouting) ANNOYING.

HTH, HAND, GFAK, EOD.

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