I don't know where they draw the line.
Many, however, seem to draw the line in this regard with their creditcard.

Some of them even will follow lines - the guiding system used in big hospitals, leading them to he venerology, traumatology or infectious disease department - or subsequently explore the lining of coffins.

Eventually someone will even experience the linen provided by a correctional facility.
Maybe the place of the line will change thereafter?

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Edited by - Tinaka on 9/15/2005 6:14:41 PM

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"Members of the jury, have you reached a verdict on the charge of culpable homicide?"

"Yes."

"How do you find the defendant?"

"We find the defendant guilty, your honor."

At least, that's my hunch.

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Yeah, I might comfortably drink 15 shots of liquor in a bar before driving home and killing myself. In my state, the bartender that served me can still be held liable even though I was the one who ordered and bought the drinks. It's the same point.

I agree with you.

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Where do you draw the line? Anything that might get someone hospitalized or leave a permanent mark. Leave the "EMT porn" to the japanese ...

Edited by - skronker on 9/16/2005 9:26:05 AM

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As for producers (ala Max) then I don't believe they are idiots. Nobody wants to do time. Since he's been in biz for a long time, it seems reasobable to assume that he knows exactly where to draw the line.

Edited by - Zoid on 9/16/2005 9:01:42 AM

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Cream pies etc is probably not a problem at more serious studios. I wish girls would say no to the assholes and work more for the good guys...

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I love anal sex and anal internals but that in absolutely no way equals rough, dangerous or violent sex... I want to see hot sex, and it can totally be super hot without being violent!

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You can put me in your boat though, I think internals, rather anal or vaginal, are hot in my book

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Though an anal internal is an "easier" way to transmit an infection because of absorbsion tissue in that region, if one was to have ANY sort of sex act AT ALL with an infected person it is still dangerous...

That's what testing is for... If you aren't going to do an anal internal with someone infected, are you still going to do an unprotected vaginal internal?? Or any act of sex at all for that matter? Come on!

**Sharde's Note: This isn't driected at you PL, simply the moronic argument against anal internals... If you are one who is against the idea of anal internals, then the same theory for your agument would absolutely suggest that you are (or should be) scared of the idea of unprotected sex OF ANY KIND... Or having sex at all, for that matter... It's a ridiculous argument!**

Edited by - sharde on 9/16/2005 5:11:16 PM

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As for unprotected vaginal 'creampie' being dangerous, of course you are correct. Even sex with a condom is not 100% safe. However, the CDC, which ought to know, places the danger of HIV infection from anal intercourse much higher than from vaginal intercourse. Thus, not doing an anal internal mitigates one's risk, which is surely not to be sneered at.

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An HIV positive male has anal sex with a porn starlet and cum in her ass she will get AIDS... Though if the same male star were to have only unprotected vaginal sex with the same porn starlet, she will not get AIDS...

Does this make any sense? At all??

Hardware I respect that you are a moderator but statements like the one you just made illustrate my point exactly how stupid the argument against anal internals are...

Again, this is not a shot at you Hardware, but because chemically and biologically viruses can be transmitted easier though the tissues in the anus means nothing... Nothing at all. Someone will still get the same virus through vaginal sex, having sex with same person... The only difference would be the rate at which the virus is absorbed into the body... And that's it... Vaginal sex is no safer with an infected person... End of story.

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RE:Porn shoot

Edited by - AztecGold11 on 9/16/2005 11:03:17 PM

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And no...it wasn't my movie...hahah

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Would not "Luke" lay himself open to a libel/slander suit if this was only a rumor?
Amazing.

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However, the CDC's statistical analysis clearly demonstrates that the odds of contracting HIV through unprotected anal sex are much higher than the odds of contracting HIV through unprotected vaginal or oral sex. Thus your claim that vaginal sex is no safer is not supported by the evidence gathered by the CDC.

In point of fact, we know of two HIV positive males who had unprotected anal and vaginal sex with assorted females in the porn industry. Not all those females got HIV, but some did - those from the group who had unprotected anal sex with an internal ejaculation. That being so, even without the confirmation provided by the CDC's statistics, it seems obvious that it is the act to be most concerned about.

Again, I am talking about mitigating, not eliminating risk.

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everyone threatens to sue luke, the problem is he's right most of the time like the HIV-scare, JKP-meltdown, company-doings, etc.

the ones that do file suit, with the one exception his insurer chose to settle, they're withdrawn, thrown-out, etc. if he's wrong, there's usually a correction up within a day or so, but he's gotten better at figuring out which sources to trust.

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However, acts that are rough enough to hospitalize a starlet are simply not cool... At all...

Edited by - sharde on 9/17/2005 2:36:59 PM

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Anyway, I remember Delilah posting here saying she enjoyed working for Anabolic. I also don't really see Mason pulling off this kind of shit (ie. threatening someone and bribing) which suggests (to me) this story is for the most part bullshit (if not completely).

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When someone unknowingly passes on a disease, the police would see nothing criminal to prosecute. If some guy causes serious injury or death to a girl by beating or choking her, he's going down. "she consented" or "I didn't mean to injure her" isn't going to fly in court. When you delberately wrap your hands around someone's neck and squeeze until they pass out, you don't have a leg to stand on.

So let's be clear, I'm not talking about stuff like Max Hardcore's work. Degradation or psychological torment is irrelevant to this. It's the physically dangerous stuff that concerns me. In an online trailer, I just recently saw for the first time a girl getting choked unconscious. It stunned me, but I hear this stuff is becoming more common. I wonder how it will reflect on the industry when the first death happens and some guy gets jailed for life.

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when female talent looking like keri sable is in demand, and you've got guys as strong as lee stone applying the pressure-someone's gonna get hurt.

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Asphyxiation is a loss of consciousness due to the presence of too little oxygen or too much carbon dioxide in the blood. The victim may stop breathing for a number of reasons (i.e. drowning, electric shock, heart failure, poisoning, or suffocation). The flow of oxygen throughout the body stops within a matter of minutes if a person's respiratory system fails. Heart failure, brain damage, and eventual death will result if the victim's breathing cannot be restarted.

please read carefully before you contradict

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Please inform yourself before putting a foot in your mouth.

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This is what I KNOW:

You are not on my set and have no idea what is happening and the discussions that go on. You also cannot feel the pressure applied or the state of the actress involved. You cannot in any way assume that you know what risks I take, or my knowledge of those risks. I have studied j-j and I also have talked with a couple of physicians. I have been choked and have choked people in personal and professional sex. Literally thousands of times. I realize that you who critique this practice don't like to see it. DON'T WATCH IT. I have seen practices in porn that are far more dangerous, but no one complains because the girl has a dick in her mouth and it's "hot". I sincerely hope that no one is ever injured in any way while performing, and I take precautions to insure that they don't. There are all kinds of people performing all kinds of things in this country that are 100 times more dangerous than what I do. If you are so concerned about humanity, why don't you go out and march against football, auto racing, boxing, or the X games.

My thought is that you don't, because your interest is not in humanity, it's in stopping people from doing something that you don't enjoy/understand. Why the people of this country care what consenting adults do with each other is beyond me. It's ridiculous.

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Edited by - Zartyr on 9/18/2005 5:36:45 PM

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The thing that concerns me about this particular practise is that when the accident happens, as sooner or later it surely will, it's going to bring a rain of shit down on this industry like nothing before.

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THE MEDICAL REALITIES OF BREATH CONTROL PLAY

by Jay Wiseman
Author of "SM 101: A Realistic Introduction"

For some time now, I have felt that the practices of suffocation and/or strangulation done in an erotic context (generically known as breath control play; more properly known as asphyxiophilia) were in fact far more dangerous than they are generally perceived to be. As a person with years of medical education and experience, I know of no way whatsoever that either suffocation or strangulation can be done in a way that does not intrinsically put the recipient at risk of cardiac arrest. (There are also numerous additional risks; more on them later.) Furthermore, and my biggest concern, I know of no reliable way to determine when such a cardiac arrest has become imminent.

Often the first detectable sign that an arrest is approaching is the arrest itself. Furthermore, if the recipient does arrest, the probability of resuscitating them, even with optimal CPR, is distinctly small. Thus the recipient is dead and their partner, if any, is in a very perilous legal situation. (The authorities could consider such deaths first-degree murders until proven otherwise, with the burden of such proof being on the defendant). There are also the real and major concerns of the surviving partner's own life-long remorse to having caused such a death, and the trauma to the friends and family members of both parties.

Some breath control fans say that what they do is acceptably safe because they do not take what they do up to the point of unconsciousness. I find this statement worrisome for two reasons: (1) You can't really know when a person is about to go unconscious until they actually do so, thus it's extremely difficult to know where the actual point of unconsciousness is until you actually reach it. (2) More importantly, unconsciousness is a symptom, not a condition in and of itself. It has numerous underlying causes ranging from simple fainting to cardiac arrest, and which of these will cause the unconsciousness cannot be known in advance.

I have discussed my concerns regarding breath control with well over a dozen SM-positive physicians, and with numerous other SM-positive health professionals, and all share my concerns. We have discussed how breath control might be done in a way that is not life-threatening, and come up blank. We have discussed how the risk might be significantly reduced, and come up blank. We have discussed how it might be determined that an arrest is imminent, and come up blank.

Indeed, so far not one (repeat, not one) single physician, nurse, paramedic, chiropractor, physiologist, or other person with substantial training in how a human body works has been willing to step forth and teach a form of breath control play that they are willing to assert is acceptably safe -- i.e., does not put the recipient at imminent, unpredictable risk of dying. I believe this fact makes a major statement.

Other "edge play" topics such as suspension bondage, electricity play, cutting, piercing, branding, enemas, water sports, and scat play can and have been taught with reasonable safety, but not breath control play. Indeed, it seems that the more somebody knows about how a human body works, the more likely they are to caution people about how dangerous breath control is, and about how little can be done to reduce the degree of risk.

In many ways, oxygen is to the human body, and particularly to the heart and brain, what oil is to a car's engine. Indeed, there's a medical adage that goes "hypoxia (becoming dangerously low on oxygen) not only stops the motor, but also wrecks the engine." Therefore, asking how one can play safely with breath control is very similar to asking how one can drive a car safely while draining it of oil.

Some people tell the "mechanics" something like, "Well, I'm going to drain my car of oil anyway, and I'm not going to keep track of how low the oil level is getting while I'm driving my car, so tell me how to do this with as much safety as possible." (They may even add someting like "Hey, I always shut the engine off before it catches fire.") They then get frustrated when the mechanics scratch their heads and say that they don't know. They may even label such mechanics as "anti-education."

A bit about my background may help explain my concerns. I was an ambulance crewman for over eight years. I attended medical school for three years, and passed my four-year boards, (then ran out of money). I am a former member of the American Academy of Family Physicians and a former American Heart Association instructor in Advanced Cardiac Life Support. I have an extensive martial arts background that includes a first-degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do. My martial arts training included several months of judo that involved both my choking and being choked.

I have been an instructor in first aid, CPR, and various advanced emergency care techniques for over sixteen years. My students have included physicians, nurses, paramedics, police officers, fire fighters, wilderness emergency personnel, martial artists, and large numbers of ordinary citizens. I currently offer both basic and advanced first aid and CPR training to the SM community.

During my ambulance days, I responded to at least one call involving the death of a young teenage boy who died from autoerotic strangulation, and to several other calls where this was suspected but could not be confirmed. (Family members often "sanitize" such scenes before calling 911.) Additionally, I personally know two members of my local SM community who went to prison after their partners died during breath control play.

The primary danger of suffocation play is that it is not a condition that gets worse over time (regarding the heart, anyway, it does get worse over time regarding the brain). Rather, what happens is that the more the play is prolonged, the greater the odds that a cardiac arrest will occur. Sometimes even one minute of suffocation can cause this; sometimes even less.

Quick pathophysiology lesson # 1: When the heart gets low on oxygen, it starts to fire off "extra" pacemaker sites. These usually appear in the ventricles and are thus called premature ventricular contractions -- PVC's for short. If a PVC happens to fire off during the electrical repolarization phase of cardiac contraction (the dreaded "PVC on T" phenomenon, also sometimes called "R on T") it can kick the heart over into ventricular fibrillation -- a form of cardiac arrest. The lower the heart gets on oxygen, the more PVC's it generates, and the more vulnerable to their effect it becomes, thus hypoxia increases both the probability of a PVC-on-T occurring and of its causing a cardiac arrest.

When this will happen to a particular person in a particular session is simply not predictable. This is exactly where most of the medical people I have discussed this topic with "hit the wall." Virtually all medical folks know that PVC's are both life-threating and hard to detect unless the patient is hooked to a cardiac monitor. When medical folks discuss breath control play, the question quickly becomes: How can know when they start throwing PVC's? The answer is: You basically can't.

Quick pathophysiology lesson # 2: When breathing is restricted, the body cannot eliminate carbon dioxide as it should, and the amount of carbon dioxide in the blood increases. Carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O) exist in equilibrium with what's called carbonic acid (H2CO3) in a reaction catalyzed by an enzyme called carbonic anhydrase. (Sorry, but I can't do subscripts in this program.)

Thus: CO2 + H20 <carbonic anhydrase> H2CO3

A molecule of carbonic acid dissociates on its own into a molecule of what's called bicarbonate (HCO3-) and an (acidic) hydrogen ion. (H+)

Thus: H2CO3 <> HCO3- and H+

Thus the overall pattern is:

H2O + CO2 <> H2CO3 <> HCO3- + H+

Therefore, if breathing is restricted, CO2 builds up and the reaction shifts to the right in an attempt to balance things out, ultimately making the blood more acidic and thus decreasing its pH. This is called respiratory acidosis. (If the patient hyperventilates, they "blow off CO2" and the reaction shifts to the left, thus increasing the pH. This is called respiratory alkalosis, and has its own dangers.)

Quick pathophysiology lesson # 3:

Again, if breathing is restricted, not only does carbon dioxide have a hard time getting out, but oxygen also has a hard time getting in. A molecule of glucose (C6H12O6) breaks down within the cell by a process called glycolysis into two molecules of pyruvate, thus creating a small amount of ATP for the body to use as energy. Under normal circumstances, pyruvate quickly combines with oxygen to produce a much larger amount of ATP. However, if there's not enough oxygen to properly metabolize the pyruvate, it is converted to lactic acid and produces one form of what's called a metabolic acidosis.

As you can see, either a build-up in the blood of carbon dioxide or a decrease in the blood of oxygen will cause the pH of the blood to fall. If both occur at the same time, as they do in cases of suffocation, the pH of the blood will plummet to life-threatening levels within a very few minutes. The pH of normal human blood is in the 7.35 to 7.45 range (slightly alkaline). A pH falling to 6.9 (or raising to 7.8) is "incompatible with life."

Past experience, either with others or with that same person, is not particularly useful. Carefully watching their level of consciousness, skin color, and pulse rate is of only limited value. Even hooking the bottom up to both a pulse oximeter and a cardiac monitor (assuming you had either piece of equipment, and they're not cheap) would be of only limited additional value.

While an experienced clinician can sometimes detect PVC's by feeling the patient's pulse, in reality the only reliable way to detect them is to hook the patient up to a cardiac monitor. The problem is that each PVC is potentially lethal, particularly if the heart is low on oxygen. Even if you "ease up" on the bottom immediately, there's no telling when the PVC's will stop. They could stop almost at once, or they could continue for hours.

In addition to the primary danger of cardiac arrest, there is good evidence to document that there is a very real risk of cumulative brain damage if the practice is repeated often enough. In particular, laboratory studies of repeated brief interruption of blood flow to the brains of animals and studies of people with what's called "sleep apnea syndrome" (in which they stop breathing for up to two minutes while sleeping) document that cumulative brain damage does occur in such cases.

There are many documented additional dangers. These include, but are not limited to: rupture of the windpipe, fracture of the larynx, damage to the blood vessels in the neck, dislodging a fatty plaque in a neck artery which then travels to the brain and causes a stroke, damage to the cervical spine, seizures, airway obstruction by the tongue, and aspiration of vomitus. Additionally, there are documented cases in which the recipient appeared to fully recover but was found dead several hours later.

The American Psychiatric Association estimates a death rate of one person per year per million of population -- thus about 250 deaths last year in the U.S. Law enforcement estimates go as much as four times higher. Most such deaths occur during solo play, however there are many documented cases of deaths that occurred during play with a partner. It should be noted that the presence of a partner does nothing to limit the primary danger, and does little or nothing to limit most of the secondary dangers.

Some people teach that choking can be safely done if pressure on the windpipe is avoided. Their belief is that pressing on the arteries leading to the brain while avoiding pressure on the windpipe can safely cause unconsciousness. The reality, unfortunately, is that pressing on the carotid arteries, exactly as they recommend, presses on baroreceptors known as the carotid sinus bodies. These bodies then cause vasodilation in the brain, thus there is not enough blood to perfuse the brain and the recipient loses consciousness. However, that's not the whole story.

Unfortunately, a message is also sent to the main pacemaker of the heart, via the vagus nerve, to decrease the rate and force of the heartbeat. Most of the time, under strong vagal influence, the rate and force of the heartbeat decreases by one third. However, every now and then, the rate and force decreases to zero and the bottom "flatlines" into asystole -- another, and more difficult to treat, form of cardiac arrest. There is no way to tell whether or not this will happen in any particular instance, or how quickly. There are many documented cases of as little as five seconds of choking causing a vagal-outlfow-induced cardiac arrest.

For the reason cited above, many police departments have now either entirely banned the use of choke holds or have reclassified them as a form of deadly force. Indeed, a local CHP officer recently had a $250,000 judgment brought against him after a nonviolent suspect died while being choked by him.

Finally, as a CPR instructor myself, I want to caution that knowing CPR does little to make the risk of death from breath control play significantly smaller. While CPR can and should be done, understand that the probability of success is likely to be less than 10%.

I'm not going to state that breath control is something that nobody should ever do under any circumstances. I have no problem with informed, freely consenting people taking any degree of risk they wish. I am going to state that there is a great deal of ignorance regarding what actually happens to a body when it's suffocated or strangled, and that the actual degree of risk associated with these practices is far greater than most people believe.

I have noticed that, when people are educated regarding the severity and unpredictability of the risks, fewer and fewer choose to play in this area, and those who do continue tend to play less often. I also notice that, because of its severe and unpredictable risks, more and more SM party-givers are banning any form of breath control play at their events.

If you'd like to look into this matter further, here are some references to get you started:

"Emergency Care in the Streets" by Caroline (I'd recommend starting here.) "Medical Physiology" by Guyton
"The Pathologic Basis of Disease" by Robbins "Textbook of Advanced Cardiac Life Support" by American Heart Association "The Physiology Coloring Book" by Kapit, Macey, and Meisami "Forensic Pathology" by DeMaio and Demaio "Autoerotic Fatalities" by Hazelwood
"Melloni's Illustrated Medical Dictionary" by Dox, Melloni, and Eisner

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