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| Eli Cross Member  What's the fun of getting old if you can't be dirty? 141 Posts 4/06 |  Posted - Feb 1 2008 : 4:20PMA few people have asked what our next big feature is, so I thought I'd post a little teaser info, and also ask for your opinions. First, a disclaimer: I'm posting this in "The Feature Side" because I would love to avoid a slew of replies that amount to "Porn doesn't need a story, it only needs five guys in a crappy Valley house throat-fucking some whore. Stories are stoopid. Oh, and make sure the lighting is really bright! In fact, just shoot the blowbang in the maternity aisle at Wal-Mart!" etc., etc., ad. infinitum. Okay, duly noted. You love gonzo. You hate features. Redlight will seat you now. Don't help. Are they gone? Good. Our next big feature at SexZ is called The Blood of Virgins, and to make a long story short, it's a horror movie. If you'd like more details on the plot, there's a rundown in my blog. Here's the thing; I'm not a big fan of horror movies in general. As a rule I find them cheesy, badly-acted and way over the top. I think Alien is possibly the greatest horror movie of all time, and the last horror flick I liked (that I saw... as I said, I'm not a fan) was 28 Days Later. The last movie that really, really scared the shit out of me was Jesus Camp, but that's another story. So I need your help. Bo Kenney has much more faith in me than I have in myself. He's confident I can make this a great movie, but I'm not so sure. I want to hear from horror movie fans what you think works and what doesn't. What makes a horror movie click for you? Are you watching them expecting them to be scary or campy or creepy or some combination? What do you want to see? Also, bear in mind we still want this to be a great adult movie. I want your thoughts about how to not cop out on the horror elements, but still have hot porn (assume we're not making a Warhol movie where the actual gore is going to be portrayed as the sexy part... no one will be fucking anybody's intestines). Also interested in hearing casting ideas. Obviously, this is one of our shows, so we're talking a lot of people who are up for a lot of extreme sex (and, yes, like Corruption and Upload Blood will have fisting and pissing and hard bondage and any other twisted stuff we can think of). So there it is. Tell me what you think. Edited by - Eli Cross on Feb 2 2008 [Link] |
bono-ONE  All-Star Member SAMCRO 8571 Posts 8/00 | Posted - Feb 1 2008 : 5:31PM [Link] |
| Diville Member 102 Posts 12/99 | Posted - Feb 1 2008 : 5:46PM What makes this interesting is that most porn and horror movies share the same structure. There's a lot of filler between the commercial scenes. So, the question becomes how to embrace both genres without succumbing to the cliches of either. If people still have Jaws in the back of their minds when they go to the beach, the ultimate porn horror movie would stay in the back of somebody's head when he's having sex. What would be some of those universal sex fears? A one night stand that goes terribly wrong? A naturally dominant person tricked or forced into being submissive? Getting wrapped up in something that makes you question your sexuality? Those kinds of things don't have the horror payoffs of a good beheading or vivisection, but practically speaking are less expensive to produce. I'd also say a pussy with teeth is a scary concept, but believe it or not, that film is already out there (and its pretty good according to the reviews I've read). My favorite horror movies are always the ones that don't scare me so much as creep me out. As an interesting aside, when he was making Death Proof, Quintin Tarantino said directing a horror movie is like jerking off the audience. If that's not also metaphor for directing porn, I don't know what is. [Link] |
| Cammy Sutra Member 41 Posts 1/08 | Posted - Feb 1 2008 : 10:52PM [Link] |
| Flash Golden Age Classic 11017 Posts 5/01 | Posted - Feb 1 2008 : 11:38PM What I've found that can really make or break a horror film are the sets, they should be on the darker side, a bit forboding, even if there are no horror elements in that scene, you want to continue the feeling that there could be. A great example of horror sets is the film The Abandoned. I hope this helps some. [Link] |
| BlackSix All-Star Member pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07 | Posted - Feb 2 2008 : 3:02AM I think a really important element in any horror film is atmosphere, that doesn't mean it has to have fog machines, for example, Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Last House on the Left have loads of gritty, grimey atmosphere. Soundtracks are also essential to an effective horror film, you can get away with a lot of stuff on a horror film soundtrack that wouldn't fly elsewhere: atonal passages, strange electronics, extreme repetition, 'non musical' sounds, etc. [Link] |
| darkside762000 Member United Kingdom 91 Posts 3/06 | Posted - Feb 2 2008 : 5:15AM If you haven't done it already, why not go and post this topic on some horror movie forums ([invalid URL removed]Rue Morgue, for example)? You'll find that there's quite a crossover audience, and I think it will give you a more balanced perspective vis a vis the horror and adult aspects. I find most of these forums to be pretty open about discussing genre movies with hardcore elements (Virgin Among The Living Dead, etc) as long as you don't post explict pictures, so I think you could get some good suggestions. You could also glean a lot in general from reading what people liked/disliked about certain films that might be similar to yours (as I say, not having read your blog, I don't know if your proposed movie is contemporary, gothic/Hammer-style, giallo, etc.) and take it from there. From a personal point of view, I hope Sex-Z keeps up the policy of having a version without the pissing and fisting...I can totally do without that, and thus appreciate being given the choice. Suffice to say, I am looking forward to seeing this picture...Good Luck with it! [Link] |
| pil008 Member 138 Posts 12/04 | Posted - Feb 2 2008 : 5:25AM The fact that you've already chosen a title "The Blood of Virgins" points to either vampires, demon possession, slasher or witchcraft. Here's a few movies you might find helpful: Onibaba (psychological horror really) The Night/Curse of the Demon The Hammer Karnstein Trilogy, The Vampire Lovers, Love for a Vampire, Twins of Evil The Evil Dead Fright Night Society Return of the Living Dead (I love Linnea Quigly in this movie, her tombstone striptease is one of the grestest moments in movie history.) The problem is mixing sex with horror in a way that won't get the moral crusaders in an uproar. Your easiest choice is probably vampires. Of course if "Jesus Camp" scared you then why don't you do something based on that; take a look at The Wicker Man (The original not the remake). Your best way around the horror/sex problem is by having the girls doing nasty things to ugly men who deserve it ("now I'm going to rip your heart out, you pervert!"). As for what I want to see in the movie, I guess it's the same old stuff: good girls turning bad. I don't think any of this helps you at all, but there you go. [Link] |
| sdc Member 236 Posts 4/03 | Posted - Feb 2 2008 : 6:45AM I’ve watched many horror movies over the years and taken many different things from them. I can’t claim to find many horror films scary, but adjectives like creepy, sexy, stylish and transgressive are frequently applied. Like Blacksix, I think atmosphere is the key. It’s atmosphere that makes an old, chaste movie like The Haunting work, and it’s atmosphere that makes contemporary movies like The Eye genuinely unsettling. A few more quick points: With a few exceptions, horror and comedy don’t sit well together. If you’re going to cast Udo Kier, you might get away with it. Otherwise I would avoid comedy. If you want an example of how to make an adult horror film, have a look at James Avalon’s Les Vampyres. This is probably my favourite adult film of the last twenty years because of the director’s keen visual sense and ability to conjure at atmosphere of carnal sexuality. Avalon’s film seems to owe more to the gothic horrors of the seventies than the work of his peers. If you want an example of how not to make an adult horror film, have a look at Nick Andrews’ Dark Angels. For me this is an example of how big budget porn misses the point: conspicuous expenditure, laughable action sequences and tacky CGI do not make a film compelling; at least, not for me. Regardless of the mixed blessing of the aforementioned films, I do think vampirism lends itself very well to adult entertainment. Sensuality has always been part the appeal of vampire films, and they tend not to rely on the gore that could be problematic for an adult production. Some examples of erotic vampire films are: Vampyres, by Joes Larraz. Daughters of Darkness, by Harry Kumel Les Frisson Des Vampires, by Jean Rollin [Link] |
| Savoy All-Star Member Sucker for Sinners 1844 Posts 12/06 | Posted - Feb 2 2008 : 8:54AM [Link] |
| backdoorman Senior Member Shake for me girl... I wanna be your backdoorman ! 2776 Posts 10/07 | Posted - Feb 2 2008 : 9:45AM "Censorship is the first step towards dictatorship !" Honest Ed [Link] |
| backdoorman Senior Member Shake for me girl... I wanna be your backdoorman ! 2776 Posts 10/07 | Posted - Feb 2 2008 : 9:47AM "Censorship is the first step towards dictatorship !" Honest Ed [Link] |
| threesomebody Official BlowBang Judge Would you like my autograph? 2491 Posts 12/04 | Posted - Feb 2 2008 : 11:23AM In general, what I find the most scary is being completely helpless in the face of death, and that torment being prolonged. With Elizabeth Bathory you have chosen a perfect story, because as with most (if not all) serial killers, there is an inherent (if not blatant) sexual aspect. In this case you have young, innocent virgins kept captive by this evil Countess and sexually tortured repeatedly before finally being killed. They KNOW they are going to be killed, but must succumb to the pleasure/pain happening to their bodies, not knowing which orgasm will be the last, and fucking with all their might hoping it will save them. Perhaps they learn they are only to die sooner since they are no longer virgins, therefore useless to the Countess. Anyway, great choice. I am really looking forward to this, and I have no doubt that however the story turns out, it will be a huge hit. [Link] |
| Janitor Retired Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99 | Posted - Feb 2 2008 : 12:07PM [Link] |
| Cuddly Wombat Senior Member Just another bare bum in the shiower 1739 Posts 12/04 | Posted - Feb 2 2008 : 12:42PM Plenty of flowing, see-through, Victorian-style nighties blowing in the wind. I am big on transformations - various scenes of monsters of various descriptions banging in the shadows and changing back into human form for the last half of the sex scene. A guy turning into a werewolf in the middle of sex with an unsuspecting girl. A group of girls are exposed to a zombie virus and the only cure is to innoculate the base of their spines with semen - the girls start to turn into zombies whilst some guys are trying to cure them in a mass orgy. Lots of sex in graveyards and in churches. Another favourite theme is possession of young virgins (the daughters of archeologists) by ancient slutty Egyptian princesses. She could also have hypnotic powers and command a college sorority house to perform the most obscene acts for her entertainment in a great orgy - "By the power of mighty Isis I command you to fist her ass!". [Link] |
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| TheSpirit Member Riddle me this... 336 Posts 5/07 | Posted - Feb 2 2008 : 3:53PM If there's a central villain in it al, I'd say look more towards once again, the oriingal Halloween and Michael Myers, or, and bear with me Eli, Freddy Krueger. With the first three films the character was, as well as Freddy Vs. Jason(specifically the opening segment where Freddy is still human), the true sinister and disturbing nature of the character was shown. That's what a talking villain should be. Sick, twisted, and pleased as Hell to be doing what he doing, rubbing his victims faces in their horribe predicament, and in the case of Krueger, taking the one place they should feel safe and tearing it away from them, destroying them with it. If you want my opinion, I'd say watch some of these following movies if you want to go down the serious path for a horror movie, and maybe use a talking villain: Halloween(1978) The Texas Chainsaw Massacre(Original and remake) American Psycho Day Of The Dead The Devil's Rejects John Carpenter's The Thing(amazing feel of claustrophobia and paranoia is created in this) The Evil Dead Henry: Portrait Of A Serial Killer A Nightmare On Elm Street 1 & 3 Saw(Despite what this franchise has become, I do believe the original has some amazing things to offer, specifically between the two leads in the movie) Audition Old Boy(I completely consider this a horror movie and revenge movie in one) I hope that proved to be somewhat helpful. I know a lot about hrror and what makes some aspects work, and what makes a lot of it fail, well, personally. [Link] |
| john thomas Deactivated User 1168 Posts 6/06 | Posted - Feb 2 2008 : 4:19PM Note also that horror films will often end without perfect resolution so that there is something to play on the audience's minds as they leave the theatre. John Carpenter is the master of this: consider the ends of Halloween, The Thing or Prince of Darkness. Porn, by contrast, is essentially a visual genre. It is about what you do see. Context, identification with the participants, things implied or hinted at may give more depth to the porn experience but, in the end, it is what is actually on screen and how well it is captured that makes the difference between good porn and bad. Porn, even the best porn, tends to prefer the comfortable closure - most perfectly embodied in the cumshot finish - and the neatly contained scene over the disturbing open-endedness of the best horror. Theoretically, the two genres can complement each other. But I wouldn't want to be the one who had to pull off that balancing act. (Whether I would want to pull off to it is a possibility I am willing to leave open.) Both genres speak to the gut, but in different ways. If I was looking for scenarios that could combine the genres I might suggest something like a slave girl who knows she will only live so long as she can come up with ever more depraved sex acts to satisfy her mistress' cruel lusts or a woman who, in the throes of passion, is taken over by demonic forces driving her to extreme or horrific acts. Since you are interested in pushing boundaries I will also mention that some sort of incest subtext could be as disturbing as any horror element and has the useful aspect that it becomes only more disturbing the more erotic it becomes. [Link] |
| backdoorman Senior Member Shake for me girl... I wanna be your backdoorman ! 2776 Posts 10/07 | Posted - Feb 2 2008 : 8:08PM "Censorship is the first step towards dictatorship !" Honest Ed [Link] |
| Flash Golden Age Classic 11017 Posts 5/01 | Posted - Feb 3 2008 : 2:35AM [Link] |
| Tristram Member 80 Posts 2/06 | Posted - Feb 3 2008 : 5:49AM I should perhaps say that I'm not a big fan of genre-driven horror films to begin with; they tend to be a bit like porn, the difference being that a certain number of killings must take place instead of a certain number of sex scenes. There is a ritualistic rhythm that shapes the narrative structure and usually stands in the way of telling an interesting story. The best horror-type movies to my mind are films like Alien, Rosemary's Baby, and The Shining, which all have a different type of structure (and which also tend to appeal to more people than just die-hard horror fans) - in these films there is a much longer build-up, it takes some time before things start happening, and it's the unknown rather than the explicit or gory that is scary. A film like the one you're about to make will inevitably have the kind of ebb/flow structure of porn and I think that putting the ebb/flow structure of genre-driven horror films on top of that is unlikely to work particularly well, better then to have a more drawn-out build up in the horror element, starting with little hints of evil and gradually increasing the severity of what happens; good horror films of this type often also leave it unclear for quite some time whether the horror is real or imagined. [Link] |
| You Wish Member Last person please turn off the lights 85 Posts 7/07 | Posted - Feb 3 2008 : 11:54AM [Link] |
| john lyons Senior Member Co-founder of Vinegar Syndrome 1188 Posts 1/08 | Posted - Feb 3 2008 : 5:16PM I'm not quite sure if I'd label Defiance a horror film, although it certainly has some gruesome moments. But I feel that the mood Weston builds in Defiance is exactly the type of atmosphere quality X rated thrillers and horror films should have. I honestly think that if horror is not your bag but you're doing one anyway, you should extract the elements you like most from horror films and put them into a type of film you feel more closely connected to. I think that the biggest problem with making a quality X rated horror film (or any quality X rated film) is to keep the sex scenes in the same mood as the rest of the movie. There's nothing more off-putting than when right in the middle of a serious scene of plot development, people suddenly just start to screw, without much pretext, and the sex itself completely destroys the ambiance of the rest of the film. I would also recommend you see Dracula Exotica (you can find bootlegs all over the place) as a proper way to integrate explicit sex into a horror narrative. The scene where Dracula's two female slaves have sex before being doused with holy water and killed is a perfect example of explicit sex and great horror moodiness. That said, I haven't seen any of your other films so i can't comment on your style of integrating sex and story. But these are just my thoughts...Best of luck! I'm looking forward to checking this out when it's done and also looking at some of your other work. [Link] |
| Flash Golden Age Classic 11017 Posts 5/01 | Posted - Feb 3 2008 : 5:22PM [Link] |
| john lyons Senior Member Co-founder of Vinegar Syndrome 1188 Posts 1/08 | Posted - Feb 3 2008 : 5:27PM [Link] |
| RandomPrecision Senior Member Enjoy! 8175 Posts 3/06 | Posted - Feb 3 2008 : 6:01PM [Link] |
| Yankey Doodel Member 283 Posts 11/05 | Posted - Feb 4 2008 : 6:49PM I think the first and most important thing to recognize if you're aspiring to make something of genuine quality, is that for a horror movie to be actually good what it needs primarily to do is to tell a good story just like any other kind of movie. What isn't required is for it to just be a series of manipulations. Though it may use many manipulative tactics on the surface (or not), unless these things are at the service of a solid underlying substance the film can only fail as anything beyond pure exploitation, as it is with any genre. Secondly, the fundamental thing that distinguishes horror from all other genres is the horrible and repellant/fascinating character of the contents and themes therein. It may be good to notice here the inherent necessity in those distinguishing features to dispose of the usual filtering of all terrible sorts of ideas that would generally be otherwise unacceptable. It may be kept in mind that in one of the most widely successful films ever made that a Satan-possessed preteen is shown thrusting a crucifix into her bleeding vaj and saying, "Fuck me Jesus!": meaning that it may be beneficial if a legitimate horror aspect is desired, to remain willing to go 'All The Way' in concept even if there are certain things that wouldn't be acceptable to explicitly display on screen in a porno that already will have things like additional fisting and urination, etc. This would probably be the central dilemma for me as far as the outward style were to go. If I were asked to make a horror-porno my inclination would be to attempt to approach the logical limits of the nature of horror-porn by making the picture as exploitative as I could possibly get away with. I'm in disagreement with the notion that such things necessarily have an inverse relation to quality. On the other hand though, it would have to be remembered that simply attempting to break common taboos is obviously passe nowadays, which of course brings us back to the beginning and starting with solid material. And of course you have a decent point of departure already with your source. Another further problem in this regard would be that of competing with much of the usual porn of today itself seeming to be the cutting edge of horror-porn, following a damsel-in-distress + Blair Witch Project kind of formula. The usual problems of the integration of the sex with the narrative on the other hand I don't think should have to be too worrisome in this case, since as may have been noted already, the premise is already one of macabre eroticism. I think that if you concentrate on making the exposition visually titilating while at the same time just treating the sex scenes as explicit depictions of Elizabeth Bathory's actions then it may be little of a problem. After all, this will be a porno, and if you ask me people ought to know what type of film they're sitting down to watch. So, it is then the suitably unusually distressing story that everything else needs to rest on. Understanding that, all kinds of tiresome contrivances can be avoided. Here are some common ones that come to mind: 1. It isn't necessary for a horror movie to be 'intense'. The horror and action genres are two different things that occaisionally have made a fine combination, but a large number of horror flicks fail in trying to emulate the few real classics of this type (such as Alien). If not both appropriate and well executed it always comes off as tedious. 2. Following on that, an overabundance of loud and rapid MTV nu-metal-esqe editing effects don't make a movie memorable, involving, enjoyable or good. 3. Self consciousness about making a horror film masked as humor: even if you go the cheapest, most purely exploitative route there is no good reason to make apologies to the audience. 4. Bad CGI has none of the charm of an unconvincing latex/corn syrup and red #5 appliance effect. [Link] |
| darkside762000 Member United Kingdom 91 Posts 3/06 | Posted - Feb 5 2008 : 5:00AM [Link] |
| Smiler Grogan All-Star Member the war cry 14790 Posts 1/08 | Posted - Feb 5 2008 : 4:13PM One of the problems with the horror genre, as far as finding new things is that we've seen so many of the cliches. Not only that, with the Scream and Scary Movie franchises, exploiting those cliches and giving that wink-nudge to the audience was the point. Mr Cross is right when he talks about horror films being cheesy and over the top. It's hard to truly scare anyone anymore. You can certainly gross people out a la the Saw films and their progeny of torture-porn, but I get the feeling that's not what he's aiming for. [Link] |
| TheSpirit Member Riddle me this... 336 Posts 5/07 | Posted - Feb 5 2008 : 7:43PM [Link] |
| Smiler Grogan All-Star Member the war cry 14790 Posts 1/08 | Posted - Feb 6 2008 : 3:01PM Mr Cross was being sarcastic. Jesus Camp is a documentary showing how fundamentalist psychos indoctrinate their children (8-13) to become "soldiers in God's Army." It is scary, but not fictional. If he did try to make a porn film based on that he would probably find himself in a real-life horror film! [Link] |
| juha Senior Member 2752 Posts 3/05 | Posted - Feb 6 2008 : 8:21PM In my opinion audiences create camp over the years. I like scary horror movies. But in combination with porn I prefer the horror to be creepy and uncannily. On the subject you've chosen, the blood baroness, some excellent mainstream movies have been made, COUNTESS DRACULA from Hammer studios and DAUGHTERS OF DARKNESS especially. I think it would be great if you could emulate the classic sex and horror Hammer studios look in the period part of your film and the dreamy eerie atmosphere of DAUGHTERS OF DARKNESS in the modern part. Sandra Romain is an excellent choice for the lead. I think it would support the story if for the period part only European girls and guys would be casted and for the modern part only Americans except for Sandra. Since the struggle for eternal youth is something that binds the baroness and porn I would appreciate a deeper examination of this struggle. [Link] |
| pil008 Member 138 Posts 12/04 | Posted - Feb 7 2008 : 4:24AM [Link] |
| Eli Cross Member What's the fun of getting old if you can't be dirty? 141 Posts 4/06 | Posted - Feb 7 2008 : 5:16AM Thanks for the great input, everyone. We're off to Eastern Europe for a week to scout locations. I'll give you an update when we get back. [Link] |
| Savoy All-Star Member Sucker for Sinners 1844 Posts 12/06 | Posted - Feb 7 2008 : 2:18PM [Link] |
| BlackSix All-Star Member pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07 | Posted - Feb 8 2008 : 4:45AM [Link] |
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