I actually find that between the lines, there is some totally great advice for maintaining a healthy 1-on-1 relationship with the man or woman in your life (with or without swinging). Heck, it's downright "Dr. Phil" in its commonsensical-ness.

Edited by - skronker on 8/4/2003 11:29:58 PM

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Great post! Your insights are really interesting and, as Skronker noted, many are quite generally applicable to all romantic relationships. The trust that you and your husband share is enviable -- I'm green all over.

Thanks for sharing.

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Yeah, it's great advice but ... I'm just insanely horny from trying to do "all the math."

--skronker

Somewhere with vision of sugarplums dancing in my head

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Mike L.

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I have no idea as to the derivation of the word. The first thing that pops into my head is square dancing ("Swing your partner round and round."), and the mental image of temporarily dancing with other people but always coming back to your original partner.

Edited by - Mythsong on 8/6/2003 12:36:06 AM

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Apparently since they had the highest fatality rate in any branch of service, they had some sort of group bond which led to them wanting to keep their wives "in the family", which began a interesting "non-monogamy"- to use the Society's choice of words- amongst the pilots wives and the pilots themsevles.

Apparently, these arangements continued from World War II into the Korean War. When the Korean War ended, these groups had spread outside the Air Force and the media first called them "wife swappers" in 1957.

Of course, the term "wife swappers" came from the sterotype image of couples throwing their keys into a pot and picking them out and going home with the spouse of the keys they picked. This term was NOT popular amongst "swinging" couples.

By 1960, there were over 20 magazines published which had "swinger" advertisments in them.

IRONICALLY, NO ONE SEEMS TO BE SURE WHERE THE TERM "SWINGING" CAME FROM, ALTHOUGH MOST EXPERTS BELIEVE IT CAME FROM THE IDEA OF SWING DANCING.

Most early "swing clubs" where off-premise establishments. That simply means that you can meet people at the party, but if you wanted to "play" you had to go somewhere else. The first "on-premise" club (I think you can figure out what that means for yourself) was the famous Plato's Retreat in New York City. (They moved to Ft. Lauderdale, FL and are now known as Plato's Repeat)

Estimates of the percentage of couples who swing in the United States range from 0.5% to 2%. The total estimated number of people who swing in America is approximately 3,000,000.

Hope that was interesting and not just boring recitation.

P.S. - that means that Mythsong was damn close.

Selena Silver

FANS:
Selena Silver Yahoo Group
PRODUCERS/DIRECTORS:
Selena Silver Booking Info

[Link]

The question that comes to mind - why is there such a high proportion of bisexual females in the lifestyle? And why the lack of bisexual males? This is a question that I haven't seen answered successfully by anyone. On the surface it doesn't seem to make much sense, since the statistics for male and female bisexuals in the general population are similar. A woman at a bisexually friendly swing club said to me that she was there to watch the boys play, as they never do at regular parties. I asked her why and she said, "They just don't." Now that was informative. It would seem that swinging mirrors the "straight" porn formula: It's okay for the girls to play but the boys don't touch. If anyone has seen a good explanation please post on it.

The only real conclusion that I can make is that straight men are more open to swinging, but straight women are not. There are a few statistics and a lot of references on swinging in this article. The estimate on the number of swingers in the U.S. is between 0.5% and 2%. Another source estimated about 1%. The lower number for the proportion of bisexual females in the lifestyle is 68%. For the sake of argument lets assume an 8% number for bisexual females in the general population (I got this from a poll result and have seen a similar number in other references). Taking into account the number of lesbians in the general population to be around 2%, this means that 90% of women are straight. Statistically 8.5% of bisexual women swing (1% x 68% / 8%). Only 0.356% of straight women swing (1% x 32% / 90 %). Which brings me to the conclusion that bisexual women are 23.9 times more likely to swing than straight women (8.5% / 0.356%).

Edited by - RobHammer on 8/6/2003 3:16:40 PM

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Btw, I am glad you added a link to the www.sexuality.org site Rob. My last post I got from them. I quoted them and gave their website, but I noticed I didn't put in an easy to click on URL link so people would have to cut and paste. Thanks for adding that.

I am going to take a stab at the issue of bisexuality - mind you this not coming from a study or research, just from lots of experience in swinging (mind you as much experience as a 23 y/o can have - LOL - but we have been VERY actively swinging for several years and my husband has for 8 years) AND lots of conversations about this issue.

I think that in the modern swinging community there is not a widespread acceptance of bi men. I am going to focus mostly on the traditional modern clubs - like LA Couples , Miami Velvet, Platos Repeat, and Club Trapeaze.

These clubs have moved way past the stereotype that swinging was just for much older couples. And, it seems that if you look back the roots of swinging in the 70's and even 80's there was a large age skew towards the older crowd. Alot of that I think simply comes from a couple of factors:

1. it wasn't as widely known, understood, and accepted;
2. younger people can have a harder time with the emotions of sharing their partner sexually with someone else;
3. female bisexuality had not yet become the "in" thing to do (it is now for the college age generation, trust me);
4. it was harder to find these establishments and when younger people did sometimes they would be turned off by the fact that the crowd was so much older them than.

There may have been a more open attitude towards male bisexuality among the earlier generation of swingers. I say this only from lots of conversations with swinger friends of ours who are in the 40's, 50's, and 60's. I am not stating a fact here, only a guess and would love to hear some feedback on it.

Among today’s 20's and 30's there is a society imposed belief that female bisexuality is accepted. You aren't looked at in a strange way anymore. In fact, I have seen girls SO exposed to the idea that they try it just to find out what it is like. Talk to college age people and ask them what they think about two girls together and you may be surprised at how many of them are fine with that.

NOTE: I am very aware that there are many people who find that offensive and even wrong; I am not overlooking your perspective or making it sound like EVERYONE is fine with bisexuality.

Girls have an easy time being turned on by another girl, and many times have an easier time allowing another girl to touch them and play with them than another man who is not their partner. Somehow it doesn't seem like such a violation. Guys also many times have an easier time allowing another girl to touch their partner than another man. Just ask non-swinging guys. Many would let another girl touch their girl, but ask if a guy can and get ready to run away!

As the swinging crowd becomes younger and younger - soft-swap play (where only the girls play together between two couples) is becoming an entry point into swinging for many new couples.

Of course, beyond the psychological factor that it is easier to allow another girl to touch your partner for a guy, it is also very likely that the guy is sexually aroused by two girls together. I think he is very likely to be attracted to both girls so the thought of seeing both of the naked doing sexual things is a large turn-on to them.

How did Jerry Seinfeld put it? "The reason I like two girls together is because I agree with both of them".

If you look at society's influence as a whole among people in their 20's and 30's (and wait until today’s 12 year olds are 25), it is very condoning of two girl play. You see it in main stream magazines, TV shows, movies- everywhere you look really. Our brains are being told: it is ok.

Back to our younger generation of swingers. Among today’s 20's and 30's there is a society imposed belief that male bisexuality is NOT accepted.

Why do straight people accept bi girls and not bi guys?

A friend of mine at our swing club who I have SO much respect for (yes, I am talking about you Maggie) thinks that it is guys own fault that they can't bring themselves to let another guy suck their dick. She says they have made it unacceptable and taboo themselves.

Do guys control that? Well, maybe.

Why are guys not as turned on by two guys together? Well, probably because they are not attracted to another guy the same way they are to a girl. Overall, guys are not considered as beautiful as girl, right? Is it that they are not agreeing with of the guys? :)

In swing clubs, that society influence is very strong which is interesting to me. Society usually frowns about you letting someone else fuck your wife, and we do that anyway. Why do we draw the line here?

I have talked to a lot of girls at our club that either enjoy seeing two guys go at it or would like to see it (again there is also a large number that would never watch that). Is it girls denying male bisexuality or is men themselves?

I wonder how many couples at clubs are both bisexual and afraid to tell other couples because of the "stigma". I watch guys dance around the issue with other man and find it almost funny if it weren't so sad. I wonder how many married guys want to be bisexual but are afraid to tell their wife because of the stigma?

Bottom line, I think guys have made it very hard in today's macho world for a guy to express his interest in another guy. It is the male’s ego's fault. How do they go about changing that? I don't know. Does someone else have an idea?

Mind you, I AM NOT talking about the gay or bisexual community of men who are actively seeking and looking for other men. They are not applicable in this discussion at all - they are open about what they want and content with themselves. I AM talking about guys in the swinging world, which means they have wives or girlfriends and are attending these events as a male/female couple.

I think that until we see two men together becoming more accepted (like two women together), it will not be prevalent in swing clubs.

I for one am strongly bisexual. I LOVE sleeping with woman, but I NEED to get fucked by a guy. My husband is straight. We haven't been involved in the bi guy swinging scene so have never seen it; however, I am fascinated by the duality of people on this issue. Double standards always bother me.

I would love to hear other people's thoughts on this.

Selena Silver
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/selenasilver

Edited by - selenasilver on 8/6/2003 4:32:15 PM

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I know a number of younger bisexual couples, but not the club going lifestyles type. I've heard accounts of some of their parties ending up in a puppy pile. Now that's warm and cozy.

There are swingers with a bisexual male in the couple. It's just not out in the open at most clubs. The last California swingers guide I saw had personals for people looking to get together privately for just about everything. I didn't count and tally all the ads, but in order of prevalence:

Couples with bi-female looking for singles(usually female) or other couples.
Straight couples looking for other couples.
Bi-couples looking for singles or couples.
Singles, straight or bi looking for other singles or couples.
Couples with bi-male looking for singles or couples.
Singles looking for multiple partners (for example gang-bang or three-way).
Singles looking for a partner to go to swing parties.
And a few other categories I'm sure.

As for the issue of male bisexuality being generally accepted, male homophobia is rampant in our society. I've seen that even among guys who claim to be tolerant and open minded, there is a tendency toward discomfort when it comes to being exposed to any male same-sex situation. Males, even bisexual males, need more personal space around other males. This isn't generally the case with most females. I have three sons, and the gay name calling thing here seems to be much more prevalent than I remember when growing. Little boys indoctrinate each other to be homophobic before they even know what the word means. I don't know how much parents or schools are doing to curb this kind of behavior. Interestingly enough, my 14 year old son made a remark that "all guys like to watch lesbians." Hmm. I don't think he paid much attention to my response when I told him "that is not always true."

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Edited by - Eaglespirit on 7/25/2004 8:46:13 PM

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I don't know where you are (I assume somewhere in the Midwest), but if you want to email me privately with that info I can pass on any positive tips I have for your area.

Now, on to your question...

Yes, the scene is very different in the Midwest. The hottest areas in the States for swinging are South Florida and California. By hottest, I mean where it is the most open, you have the best clubs, and you have a young, attractive crowd as well as everyone else.

The reason for that has to do with the conservativism of the areas. The tighter the laws are against swinging, the less people know about it, the less open it is, and the fewer the younger crowd will be. The looser the laws, the reverse is true.

I know what you mean about going back over and over hoping the crowd will get better. It was like that in one city in Australia too. The best advice I can give you is if the only clubs you have don't pull in the crowd you are looking for then you will have to meet people from the online swinger websites. We have been able to find people we are into literally anywhere (including on vacation in Thailand!) from these websites.

Don't get me wrong, we prefer just showing up to a club to-but, this works as well. Never give up on swinging because the party or club you try doesn't do it for you - there are so many different kinds of parties and clubs the best advice I could give is try them until you find the one for you. Believe it or not, there are people who do not what to find people like me or you either - we turn them off.

I will list some of the top swinging meet websites here:
www.swingersdateclub.com
www.playfulswingers.com
www.adultfriendfinders.com
www.alt.com
www.altlifestyle.com

Of course, Kimi- if you guys ever come to LA, you know you are automatically invited to our club with us. We will be happy to host you and your partner and introduce you to everyone. :)

Or, if you ever go to Florida - we can hook you up with the best clubs there. (God, I miss South Beach!!!)

Hope that helps?

Selena Silver

FANS:
Selena Silver Yahoo Group
PRODUCERS/DIRECTORS:
Selena Silver Booking Info

[Link]

1. Remember that any girl you meet is there with a guy - she is going home with that guy and they are a little tense about guys trying to approach her like a single girl. The fastest way into that couple's good books is to treat her like a girl who DOES have a man.

Say hello to her guy first. Shake his hand first. Then talk to her. Always approach them with complete respect for both her and her relationship. Bond with her guy as well as her.

2. Never EVER touch a girl without asking first. She spends the night trying to keep people from doing that (while the whole time looking for who she wants to do that). If you ask first, you are put in her "sweet guy" book and swinger girls are more into whether you are "sweet" or not than your looks. Remember, she already has a man.

The way to do this is to ask her man if it is okay if you ask her if you can touch her. Trust me. Both of them will immediately put you at the top of their list. The single guy that shows respect for the girl's man and relationship always is allowed to fuck the girl over the guy who does not know this. Remember, you will only fuck the girl but you have to make both her and her guy want to let you!

3. Never EVER try to put your cock inside a girl without a condom on it. Don't even get close to that situation without YOU saying "let me put a condom on". If you bring it up before she does, you score even more points. You may get into the REPEAT guy list. Yes, we have those. :)

We spend way too much energy fending off single guys that try to do that. We actually put them in the "no chance in hell" book just because of that. Don't risk that for something she won't let you do anyway. (NO, she won't get so turned on she forgets!) Win this chance and probably future chances by showing you are safe when it comes to sex and she (and her man) can trust you.

4. Take the time to groom yourself properly. It isn't how good looking you are (girls with boyfriends/husbands are just looking for cocks); it does matter whether you are shaved, groomed, smell nice, etc.

BIG TIP: girls LOVE guys who shave their cocks and balls. If you want a blow job, consider this: We do NOT want to put a bunch of hair in our mouths.

5. Bring your own condoms and lube. If you are at a club or party that provides those OR the girl has her own she insists on you using that is fine. But, do you want to miss out because you didn't bring them? Don't ask her for them; why should she spend money giving them to you??? She is letting you fuck her. Bring them yourself.

6. Remember that swing events that allow single guys to attend are all about the girls. If they attend them; then they are looking for extra guys - so that is okay; but it plays by their rules. Guys who try to make it about them NEVER get laid. Be respectful of the couples there. Case them out and see if it looks like they are open to you approaching them or if it looks like they want to be left alone. If you get the "leave me alone vibe", NEVER approach them.

If you get the "open" vibe, go over and introduce yourself (remember focus on her man FIRST), talk briefly, let them know you are around if they are intrested, and politely excuse yourself. You just got on their "consider" list instead of their "NO WAY" list (yes, that is how we think) that the other better looking guy got put on because he tried to monopolize them and they had to make an excuse to get away from. Rememeber, they are looking for a guy they can get to fuck her that night and never have to see again unless they want to. Not the guy they think they will never get rid of.

7. Understand that there are couples that will NEVER consider a single guy. They do not ever let a guy touch her. They just look for other girls or couples where the girls play together only. Do NOT waste your time or burn your reputation by chasing these couples. You will NEVER succeed and you will only hurt your chances with other couples. This is NOT personal against you - no guy touches her; not even the hottest husband of the hottest girl she plays with. Move on.

Hope that helps? And, good luck picking up your next couple for a M/F/M. They can be a lot of fun! :)

Selena Silver

FANS:
Selena Silver Yahoo Group
PRODUCERS/DIRECTORS:
Selena Silver Booking Info

[Link]

Still looking for my smart beautiful "Selena"...

[Link]

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HOW TO JUST "CHECK OUT" THE SWINGING SCENE

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Since my hubby and I "host" at our swing club (which means that on some nights we give tours to all the first-time club visitors so they are comfortable with the club and know the rules) we come into contact with a lot of first timers. We see them handle the "checking it out" experience in many different ways and I am going to summarize the advice we give them that we have seen work the most successfully:

YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING YOU DON'T WANT TO
First, realize that there is no pressure to "do anything" your first visit to a club. In fact, MANY people do not. Just because you are there, doesn't mean you don't have power over your own decisions. :) You may agree to do nothing the first night no matter what.

At our club, we encourage the newbies to have some drinks together, dance, eat, sit and watch other people. See what everyone is like.

Last week at our club there was a new couple that we gave a tour to and then hung out with a little bit. They commented over and over again how everyone was SO different from what they expected. They couldn't believe how friendly and respectful everyone is. Remember, you aren't dealing with "sharks" like when you were a single girl going out to a bar trying to fend off single guys. These are all COUPLES who are already in a relationship.

Note: remember, our club is a couples only club so there are no single guys there.

KEEP COMMUNICATING WITH EACH OTHER ALL NIGHT
As you sit and watch keep each other updated on how you are feeling. Remember, never risk your relationship because one of you is farther along than they other. Of course, don't assume they other person doesn't want what you want either. Talk about it!

"How are you really feeling?"; "Are you comfortable?"; "Anyone you are interested in?"; "what do you want to do?"; "don't you wish Selena Silver were here?" - LOL - are great questions to keep checking in with each other in.

Also, remember you will be in a sexy atmosphere that is conducive to things happening that wouldn't just happen at a "regular place". At our club, the dance music is electrifying, the drinks are flowing, the girls are pole dancing on the stage, you will see naked breasts and girls kissing, and all those great things that make you a little bit more sexually excited. :) (Of course, I will probably be one of the girls on the pole, naked, kissing a girl! LOL)

You may be more comfortable as the night goes on...

WANT TO SEE WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN THE PLAY ROOMS?
If you are both up to it, head to the back play area to just see what is going on. Some clubs make you strip down naked with a towel around you to cover you up. That is ok. :) You don't have to take the towel off unless you want to. The club we go to does not make you do that, so you can go into the back with your normal clothes on.

Go back there JUST to check it out. Don't feel like anything has to happen. There are public rooms and private rooms. The public rooms are for people who like to be naked and have sex in front of other people. They are filled with exhibitionists who may just be fucking in front of other people or may be people looking for a group orgy. :) It is OKAY to watch those people - they are in that room because they want people to watch. Enjoy the feel of a bunch of people fucking in a room - it is a pretty big turn on!

Please respect the private rooms - those people have made a conscious decision to be in a private room; so leave them and the room alone. It is not okay to try to open those rooms and watch.

BEST SEX YOU EVER HAD?
You may decide that is as far as you want to go that night. If it is, I will guarantee you this- when you get home you will have some of the best sex you have had since you first got together. You will be seriously turned on and sexed up.

You may decide to take it a step further and have sex with each other there. Always a great thing- because new environments are always a good thing for your sex life. You have the option of choosing a private room where no one can see you or to do it in a public room where people can see you. (Remember, no one will try to touch you without asking you first! And, if you say no - that means no.)

It is pretty sexy to fuck with other people around you. The sound of sex everywhere makes you fuck a little harder. :)

WANT TO GO FOR IT?
You may also meet some people that are attractive to you (age, looks, personality) who play under whatever your interests are. If you are just looking for some bi-girl fun, you can find that. If you are looking for the full-swap thing, you can find that. You might decide to go for it.

You may, however, put limits on that first night. Maybe, you are ready to let another girl give him a blow job- for example - but, you aren't ready for him to penetrate her. That is totally fine! Go at your own pace; follow your own rules. It is YOUR relationship.

The best thing you could ever do is tell another couple where you are in the whole process. All of us started where you started and all of us are hoping you have a great time. You would be shocked at how much an experienced swinging couple will help a couple new to the whole thing. :)

Remember, two really important beginning rules:

1. Never do anything when your partner isn't right there.
2. AT ANY TIME, either of you can say "I am not comfortable" and whatever you are doing HAS to stop.

HOW PEOPLE HOOK UP AT SWING CLUBS

1. They go up to another couple in the club and introduce themselves/or someone comes up to them . If you are outgoing and are comfortable with this, don't be shy introducing yourself to another couple. Remember, they are there to meet people. Be very conscious of whether they are interested in hanging out with you. :) Everyone has their own tastes and they may have their eye on someone else. NO BIG DEAL. :)

2. Host couple introduces them to someone . If your club has host couples like ours does, talk to them! Tell them where you are, what you are thinking, who you would like to be introduced to. Remember, they know a lot of people there and know what they are into. They can actually play excellent matchmakers. I know we do! :) Of course, for those of you who don't want to meet someone, but are really curious about the scene - talk to the host couples. They are more than happy to answer any question you can imagine.

3. Dancing on the dance floor . It is a very popular place to meet people. It normally works with the girls catching each other's eye and moving a little closer to dance together. :) As everyone "dances" together, they may move it into the other room. They may just dance for a while and move on. Great place.

4. Random pick-up's in the play areas . Other people don't want to talk to or "know" the people they play with. They just head straight for the larger public, orgy rooms. There you can catch someone else's eye that is already going at it and ask to join (lots of facial communication here!) and hop straight into action with someone without ever having to talk to them. It is really cute and funny after a group has been going at it furiously to finish and kind of go "so what is your name?" LOL

THE GIRL ALWAYS INITIATES RULE
This unwritten, but oh-so-true Swinger rule may make you feel more comfortable: always let the girls initiate things between the couples. You don't have to worry about guys hitting on you. They way it usually works is the girl will say hi to your girl. If everything is fine, they bring the hubbys into it. Isn't that cool? In swing clubs, the girls have ALL the power.

A tip for you if you are the guy of the couple: Let your wife/GF initiate contact (and have her do it through the other girl). When you do meet the other couple - you say hi to the other guy first before you greet the girl. When we meet someone at the club, my hubby ALWAYS introduces himself to and shakes the hand of the other husband first (while I am shaking the girl’s hand) and then he shakes her hand. It is just a little sign of respect to the other man that seems to go a long way. Aren't men funny?

RECOMMENDATION ON HOW TO CHECK OUT SWINGING
There are a couple of different ways to have your first swinging experience.

There is the club scene like I mentioned- and the club scene is different in different parts of the country (as was discussed earlier in the thread). Here is a listing of Swing Clubs in the United States. Here is a link to [ invalid url ].

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND THIS WAY OF "TRYING IT OUT" DUE TO THE FACT THAT YOU CAN FOLLOW THE ADVICE ABOVE.

If you don't have a swing club you can go to (or if the one in you area does not appeal to you), you can meet with a couple or group of couples that have house parties.

If you do this, I highly recommend that you meet an EXPERIENCED other couple who knows exactly where you are in the process and is willing to "help you along" :) When two inexperienced couples get together, it seems like nothing EVER happens. LOL That is a big tip.

NO CLUBS AROUND YOU, BUT YOU WANT TO TRY IT THERE?
Try it for the first time on vacation. The best clubs in the country are in LA and South Florida. Pretty good vacation spots! There are even open-minded resorts in Jamacia and Mexico where lots of swingers hang out. Just an idea. :)

IF YOU ARE EVER IN LA, look us up at the club we belong to LA Couples

THE ONGOING PROCESS
You may never decide it is okay for either of you to play with someone else. THAT IS OK! You may only go once, you may go many times because you love the vibe and the people. We have plenty of non-swingers who come to our club to party in an open-minded club.

You may decide after going several times you are ready to take a next step - and it may be a small one. You may find your comfort zone expanding and your rules changing as time goes on.

You may jump into the first night and be THE stars of the party. LOL

Take it at your pace, develop your own rules, and communicate with each other COMPLETELY. There is no RIGHT in swinging. It is what is right FOR YOU.

Selena Silver

FANS:
Selena Silver Yahoo Group
PRODUCERS/DIRECTORS:
Selena Silver Booking Info
SELENA SILVER ADT "PICK OF THE WEEK"
ADT Pick of the Week

Edited by - selenasilver on 9/4/2003 8:04:54 PM

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Did you ever talk to your "girly"? or leave your browser open to the topic? :)

Selena Silver

FANS:
Selena Silver Yahoo Group
PRODUCERS/DIRECTORS:
Selena Silver Booking Info
SELENA SILVER ADT "PICK OF THE WEEK"
ADT Pick of the Week

[Link]

It's funny that Ferret mentioned that he thought that Oprah wouldn't talk about swinging, because we recently got Oxygen in our area and I was at their website and was surprised at how many shows about sexuality they have. I seriously think that Selena should pitch a swinging/sex industry show to Oxygen. Call it "Inside Sex" or something like that.

I've read older novels where the word "swinger" was used as slang for anyone who deviates from the sexual norm, particularly homosexuals ("swinging both ways"). Maybe it's been whittled down over the years to primarily connote wife-swappers

The million dollar question:
"Why is it okay to be a bisexual woman at a club and not a bisexual man?"

Acculturation. The same reason it's, like, kewl, for Britney and Madonna to kiss, but if 50cent and Chris Rock were to kiss, Jay Leno would turn up his nose. The solution to the club thing is to just go to gay clubs that are friendly to women, right Selena and Rob? The solution to the culture thing is time, I guess. Right now, the liberal male edge of the media is stuck in this "hey man, bein' gay is kewl but keep it off me, bro! har har!" phase. We need the liberal edge to realize how harmful this subtle message of disgust around male homosexuality is. More importantly, lesbians and gay men still have civil rights issues to deal with. Ellen DeGeneres may be hip now, but 10 short years ago Sharon Bottoms lost custody of her child because she was a lesbian.

There are 2 forces pushing the increase in our culture's increasing acceptance of female bisexuality. One is women's liberation of our own natural human desires, the second is the androsexual power structure that allows and encourages that which pleases the male gaze. To a certain extent, the society that has created this increased expression of female bisexuality is the exact same one that has always allowed women the "freedom" to prostitute. Not to conflate prostitution and swinging. But these descriptions of swing subculture sound like it's not as much a subversion of culture as one might initially think. Selena, I agree with your friend who said that men control this individually. One of my theories is that everyone is bisexual, but that men's bisexuality is acculturated out of them. Since desire and attraction cannot be completely controlled, 1) homophobia must be constantly reinforced (subtly or overtly) and 2) heterosexuality must be extremely privileged, ie, breeders are given more de jure civil liberties, plain and simple.

I suspect that for many of the men in the swing subculture (not Selena's hubby), fucking girls is cool for the husband as long as it's safe for him emotionally and he's allowed to watch, but if he gets left for a woman, it probably won't be 2 seconds before he's cursing lesbians and glaring at women who kiss in public, or worse, using that against her in a custody battle.

When it comes to sexual rebellion, I personally keep a vigilant eye on egalitarianism, because our whole history has been about the eroticization of male dominance over women. That's why I once wrote that I would never have a 3some with straight guys (MMF or FFM). They just don't deserve it. The whole patriarchal culture is pushing for woman on woman love to be merely a performance for the male gaze, and I can't hang with that during live sex. If *I'm* here exploring my bisexuality, then you better be ready to explore yours. This even applies for me one-on-one: If you want me to play with your cum, you better be ready to play with it. If you want to watch me suck someone else's cock, you better be ready to lay down next to me and share.

Does this mean I'm going to make my current boyfriend pay October's rent with cum on his face? No. He hands it off in person so that won't work as well as me dropping it off in a mail slot with no one seeing me. But we'll work something out.

Obviously, I'm not as strict when it comes to porn. But in my fantasies, I can go anywhere. I can tell myself that Micheal Stefano licked Brandon Iron's pretty ass during the scene, but they cut it out.

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There is always hope... I was the girl who just 2 1/2 years ago swore I would NEVER have anal sex and did not think I would EVER sleep with a girl. LOL

You made me curious what happened; so thanks for sharing.

Selena Silver

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How do I reply to that? Wow.

A little birdie on ADT told me that you are the mysterious, intelligent woman on the boards that has everyone intrigued by you. :) Well, you are intriguing me too...

I think that you are right when you say that woman's bisexuality is having it's day right now because a) women are exploring their sexuality and b) men approve of it. That is why it is so acceptable to society. Of course! You just put it better than other people have before you.

As for me, I am glad I can find so many girls who are free to be open about being bi (even if that is the reason). :)

I think that you are right that there are some men in the swing culture who would react badly if their wife left for them another woman. I have also met many couples in the swing culture where it is so obvious that is not an option that there is a total freedom when it comes to girl/girl play. I for one would NEVER date a woman, but I love them as friends and as sexual playmates.

There really are men who are happy (and even turned on) when they see their woman getting sexually pleased. I think that is one of the biggest keys in making the woman (who traditionally can have a very hard time seeing her man with another woman) feel comfortable allowing him to have other women as well.

I loved your attitude though about "if you want me to do it, you have to do it". LOL That attitude is why I never had a threesome until I met my now husband. I fantasized about two cocks (at the time I didn't think I was attracted to women). I offered to do F/M/F threesomes for boyfriends but ONLY if they gave me a M/F/M threesome. They always freaked out and said NO WAY (although they always still asked if we could do the other!). I passed. My now husband took me to the MFM first.

Hmmmm...let me see if we can learn something here. He took an active path of finding out my sexual desires and made sure I was fulfilled in them. Now, I am passionate about making sure all of his are fulfilled. Anything to learn there?

I am really lucky. I am truly blessed. Today, by the way is our one-year wedding anniversary. I wish all of you the same happiness and fulfillment I feel. Especially you, Sue R. LOL

Btw, I pray that Michael and Brandon do NOT read your little fantasy. LOL (Or do I secretly wish they will???)

Selena Silver

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Happy Anniversary to you and your hubby! I smile whenever you mention him in your posts, because it's so clear how much you love him and how much he loves you.

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To address the issue of bisexuality within the swinging subculture your observations on society in general certainly hit the mark. There are things that transcend our current cultural norms, indeed help to define them. It is simplistic to say that if you lobby away the civil rights issues and cure homophobia you would see male bisexuality come into parity with female bisexuality in the swinging community. As personally satisfying a thought as that is, there are a couple of basic differences between men and women that are likely to keep the numbers skewed.

The male gaze is real. Men objectify women. Males can get instantly aroused just looking at female flesh. This also holds true for gay men, with the object of desire being the same sex. Men easily separate the emotional from the sexual. Unconstrained by social inhibitions, the young male really would fuck anything within sight. Believe me, I can personally attest to this and say it has nothing to do with social conditioning. Acculturation may help to reinforce this, but these types of male responses are biologically driven.

The typical female does not get instantly aroused gazing at male flesh. She may find it pleasing, but the erotic level is substantially below that which is observed in males. A woman's emotional and sexual response are more closely linked. While the man is aroused by gonzo for it's pure visual appeal, the woman is looking for a connection between partners or signs of real pleasure to trigger her arousal.

Women don't see men as sexual objects as much as men see women as sexual objects. The attractiveness of a man is not determined solely by his looks. Women in general do see themselves as being the object of the man's desire. The fact that women wear sexy clothing and men don't is more of a manifestation of this than the cause, though it is a reinforcing factor. Porn is as equally available to both men and women, but men are four times likelier to use it. Look at strip shows, pole dancing, prostitution. Men are more aggressive, and this applies to the sexual arena as well. Given the difference in male and female sexual response you can't explain it all away with acculturation.

What does all this have to do with swinging and bisexuality? Taken on the surface no one point stands out, but as a whole the picture begins to emerge. The male fascination with girl/girl is indeed a manifestation of the male gaze. Since women don't objectify men to the same extent, this is not an area that is a collective female kink. Given the fact that the males response is object oriented, the typical male is likely to see any boy/boy activity as a turn off or neutral at best. Male homophobia tends to reinforce this. Since woman in general are more relationship focused, they are not as likely as men to want to swing in the first place. I'm still trying to figure out the correlation between sexually adventurous women and bisexual women. Attendance at swing events certainly seems to establish some correlation (not to mention the proliferation of bisexual women in porn).

Certainly SueR, one solution is to go to clubs like the Power Exchange in San Francisco. Not all clubs expressly prohibit male bisexuality. From the FAQ at Club NightLife in San Jose:
Q: Are there Bi-sexual activities at the parties?
A: Yes, mostly female, but we do not go down the hallway to make certain that men are with women, and vice-versa. Use your own judgment when it comes to any activity, whether you are engaged in Straight or Bi activities.

Here's hoping that Selena can arrange for your fantasy to manifest itself in her next shoot.

Edited by - RobHammer on 9/8/2003 8:07:29 PM

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It's odd becasue I am very bi, in fact if I had to label myself I'd say; I am an 85% lesbian who is very much in love with a man.

I think I'll always be interested in womyn but can't imagine being with one, even with my loves consent. I like things between us the way they are, besides I know myself and I could not deal with seeing him enjoying another womyn.

That makes me a jealous type I suppose.
It's conflicted though because I am completely open minded as far as fetishes or anything out of the average goes as far as sex. I'll try (almost) anything once and have (almost) no problems with other peoples sexual preferences.

My point? I don't suppose I really have one. This thread has just been so though provoking I thought I'd share just a bit.

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I know many great couples who come to our swing club frequently to dance and hang out with us "wilder types" and never have and never will swing. They have a great realtionship in my opinion because they can be open enough with each to say "we want to be around these types of people", "we want to be in a sexualy charged atmosphere" while at the same time reaffirming to each other that what is right for them is to keep it just as fantasy fun.

Let me guess- you go out to strip clubs sometimes for fun as a couple, right? It really isn't that different from that if you just hang out and eat, drink, and dance in the main club except that you can dance too. :) Oh, and you don't have to tip anyone. Oh, and the drinks are free or you brought your own. Oh, and you can watch the girls who are dancing naked actually kissing each other instead of just pretending to. Oh, and... LOL

Selena Silver

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Selena Silver Yahoo Group
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Why's this relevant? Well, she's mentioned she wants (maybe..she's playing cautious for now, can't say I blame anyone for wanting to be safe/careful) to try a girl herself, or maybe a F/F/M 3-some. I must say, I find this hilarious, since I had been entertaining the notion of what she thought of getting fucked (wow, no matter how long I read these boards and occasionally post, it's just weird typing that on a chat board) by other guys...on a visual level, the idea of watching her get off like that is mind-numbingly arousing to me. Seems we're backwards! LOL. Actually, I don't think it's that uncommon for men to enjoy watching their woman get pleased, at least as a fantasy-it seems a fairly common one. What % of that translates over into real life, I can't say, though I'm rather curious. I imagine it's all the people with solid relationships who're already completely comfortable with each other.

But, anyways, the information on swing clubs (and the lifestyle in general) you've provided is excellent Selena, and even directly relevant for me...since I've been pondering possible venues for her to find a girl interested in some F/F play or F/F/M play (I do a lot of the legwork in making things happen since I'm an information whore). A pity my SO and I are out all over the world now (Temporarily physically separated due to work, I'm in Japan, she's in New England, USA) and not over in LA, sounds like you've got a nice little club there. May have to stop by if we're ever over for vacation. :)

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It is very interesting how hesitant people are in bringing this up to their partner. They can be very afraid that their partner will think:

a) they want to "cheat" on them;
b) they are a sick pervert;
c) they aren't attracted to them anymore

I was very impressed with Frigo for actually bringing it up to his partner. :)

But, if you really think it through...

If you believe the polls you see today, there is a very high percentage of people who cheat on their significant others. The fact that your partner came to you and asked what you thought about this should tell you that they DON'T want to cheat on you. That they would like to do "something", but that they want to include you. That is something, isn't it?

An interest in swinging doesn't necesarily indicate a pervert either. (Otherwise, I am in real big trouble! LOL) Before you rush to to judge.... just check out a club one night (with a deal that there is NO playing) and see for yourself.

Sexual attraction in the beginning of a relationship is strongly helped by the "unknown", the "mystery", the fun and excitement of exploring something new. As relationships develop over time that newnewss is gone. There is no more mystery and people start to yearn for that. As a couple settles into sexual rituals instead of sexual exploration the excitement of it can dwindle. And, as you lose that desire to just rip each other's clothes off you have to work very hard to keep love alive. Love is a decision over the long haul right - not just a feeling?

The publishing industry makes a fortune off of books on how to rekindle that fire. I think I can offer up one alternative for couples (that isn't right for all of them!) that can save you all that money. LOL

Sexual passion can always rekindle and sustain the feelings of love. Sexual passion comes from attraction and that desire to explore, which is why newness can really help. Sexual passion comes from being really satisfied sexually by someone, from the desire to do that for your partner, from the willingness to explore and try new things, from the ability to push yours and your partners limits together.

Everyone tells couples who are searching to rekindle that passion to "spice things up". And, I think putting yourself in a highly sexual atmosphere surrounded by highly sexed people can be a great way to do that! LOL

Your partner may have a great idea that takes your relationship to new levels (or even saves it). And, remember, they are thinking of something that includes you which indicates they WANT to be with you.

What if you are thinking about bringing it up to your partner?

It wouldn't hurt to have an evening where you work to put them in the romantic and sexual mood (especially if that has been missing for a while). Make yourself attractive, orgainize a romantic dinner or outing. Think of something you did in the early days of your relationship when you couldn't keep your hands off each other.

Tell them how much you really do love them; how you really do want to be with them forever; how much they mean to you. Tell them you want to do the things that it takes to keep your love and your feeling of sexual attraction alive. Tell them that it is real important to you that both of you are sexually fulfilled and that you have an idea to bounce of them that might do that.

Tell them that you have heard about something very intriguing and you would love to peek into that life with her as a fun naughty night out. If you like, it you can go again; if you don't- you won't. No big deal. Just a fun night out together.

Make sure they know that they are in total control the whole time. What they say goes.

I would also ask them to tell you if they have ever thought about it? Any fantasy they have never told you? This shouldn't just be about swinging, it should be breaking down those silly walls that committed couples have that keep them from telling their partner their true sexual fantasies. Tell them you REALLY are open-minded to listen and will make any of their fantasies and needs happen that you would feel comfortable doing. But - and here is the important part - even if they have one that you wouldn't be comfortable doing, there is NO penalty for telling you! Fantasies are just that - only fantasies. And, tell them you want them to feel the same way about you.

Just my thoughts. Hope the help. :)

Selena Silver

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I'm not having communications issues with my girlfriend in regard to fantasies and the like(later to be my fiance, methinks...hehehe). Quite to the contrary, the idea of 3somes came up directly in conversation when we were just sitting down and chatting about (I forget what, I think either the social acceptability of women finding each other attractive or possibly we were just saying, "So, what's your fantasy?") and she had mentioned she was interested in playing with another girl, or maybe doing a threesome with me and another girl. We're very comfortable with each other, so we feel we can just sit down and tell each other "I'm kind of curious about X"

So I find your thread fascinating because after she told me flat out she was interested in possibly having an experience with another woman, I decided to check up on good venues for meeting similarly open-minded people. :) Hence my fascination. Heheh. Still, everything you posted in your last post is solid relationship advice, even if I don't think mine needs it, I'm sure someone who reads this thread will find it useful. :)

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Edited by - Frigo on 9/11/2003 10:41:54 AM

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I hope you share with us your first experience. I LOVE hearing those stories. And, when you guys next come to LA - let me know, we would be more than happy to show you our club. :)

Selena Silver

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I thought it was great that you guys actually brought it up, talked it through, and decided against it.

I do not believe that there is a blanket right or wrong for all relationships. I beleive there is only the right or wrong that two committed people in love agree upon for each other.

I FIRMLY believe that a couple should have open communication - free to say anything without reprisal - and work through together what their rules are.

Obviously, me and my hubby worked through our rules and swinging is all good in them. You worked through yours with your partner and it is not. I think both of us are great examples of communication working and couples that will end up happy. :)

Thanks for your contribution and point of view!

Selena Silver

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By the way, this is post no. 69 - my favorite number.

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And, what a description...

Selena Silver

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One of the myths about swinging, or so I've heard, is that it's only ugly people doing it. Many swingers state that this isn't the case (and of course, as I can see, this isn't the case with SelenaSilver), but now I've watched two documentarys about swingers on TV, and they both present the same people: old, fat, bald guys with old and fat wives. Well, not extremely old, fat and bald, but I sure wouldn't consider these people being good looking enough to have sex with them, or watching them have sex either for that matter...

So, here's my question: Are there any swinger clubs out there that only bring in people that are good looking (I know this sounds a bit fascistic (is that a word?) or elite-ish (is that a word?))??

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Edited by - luv2lick on 9/17/2003 3:58:18 AM

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Thanks for some really good and interesting information about swinging! You can also disregard my question above, since it seems to depend on what club you go to.

Now to another question:

Does "fake swingers" exist? Lets say that I am a single guy looking for some good times. I call one of my female friends and introduce the idea of swinging to her, just to be able to be in free open-minded atmosphere. Then, we would go together to the club, have sex, together or by ourselves, and then go home...

Would this be "illegal" in the world of swinging, and if so, how could one tell that you're a "fake"?

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There is some information on this at sexuality.org with links at the top of this thread.

Hiring a hooker to get into a club is usually a big no-no.

Going to a club on a date with a female friend who is also there to have fun (with you and others) would be ok. It really depends on the club. You shouldn't use a woman as a "ticket" to get into a club. If you and her are really there to have fun together, and have that understanding in advance (and an agreement on what your mutual limits are), things should be fine.

As an edit:
I went to a club where a woman was there with a friend. Her husband and his wife stayed home. Note: they were both already involved with swinging and had known each other for quite some time.

Edited by - RobHammer on 9/23/2003 2:59:41 AM

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The funny little code in swinger land is that most things are equal exchange...everyone is willing to give what they are taking.

Also, many clubs (like ours) requires you to be back in the couples are as a couple. You can't leave her at the bar and head to the back yourself.

However, if you are talking about a friend who is willing to have sex with you and other people and wants to go with you - there is nothing wrong with that.

There is no rule that says you have to be married! LOL

The way "fakes" as you are putting it are spotted is by the lack of participation on your female companions part.

But any two people who are both fine participating can go to a club together.

Does that help?

Selena Silver

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Selena Silver Yahoo Group
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SELENA SILVER ADT "PICK OF THE WEEK"
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I think that this documentary did more to prevent acceptance for bisexual males and produce even more resistance against them than what I refer to as the "Terrible Three".

Terrible Three = Christianity, Judaism, and Islam

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