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| Saki At-Large 2087 Posts 11/99 | As overheard on DVD Talk: StephDunn said: "Adult DVD prices are much cheaper than VHS (even though some online stores are now selling VHS for less than DVD.) And adult DVD prices are dropping." That brings up the interesting questions, What is driving the prices of adult DVDs down and how low are the prices going to go? For my two cents on this issue, let me start out with a little personal history. As a consumer of porn for most of this decade, I've seen all manners of pricing and sales methods for both VHS and DVD. Until recently, and more specifically, until the Internet, porn was expensive. Good VHS tapes were usually tough to get for less than $20 (and more like $50-60 if you frequented an adult bookstore). DVDs were were priced at the MSRP, i.e. $40. Most of the reasons I heard as to why prices were so high (100-300 percent above mainstream) were risk, overhead, economies of scale, and profit. Risk: if you operated a mail order business, studio, or bookstore, there was a real chance that you would eventually be raided and charged with obscenity--thus requiring a hefty legal defense fund. Overhead: these are the traditional brick and mortar expenses. Economies of scale: production costs are spread over a very limited number of tapes or discs, making each one more expensive. Profit: basically everyone in the supply chain makes money on the premise that sex is exploitable--people are willing to pay a lot for it, are less willing to complain about high prices, and have little choice where they can buy it. So along comes the Internet, and all of a sudden you have companies who are relatively free from the risk and the overhead and who are willing to take less profit. Those factors lead to increased sales, making it more worthwhile for studios to spend more and duplicate more. Also, online auctions create a market that, in some cases, significantly undercuts the e-tail and retail prices, driving prices down. So where does it end (i.e. reach an equilibrium)? Obviously, the small adult retailers cannot afford to loss-lead to get customers like the big mainstream DVD e-tailers are doing (and losing millions in the process). And they'd be fools not to try to turn a profit, especially since sex is a demand-driven commodity. So what is the "right" price point for adult DVDs? I'm not privy to what the wholesale costs (production, editing, mastering, duplication, distribution, advertising and studio cut) are for adult DVDs nowadays. So I don't know how lean things can go. Have the prices dropped as far as they are going to? I notice that we've got several members who are across the pond, and it sounds like, adjusted for the "European Factor" (everything costs more there), it's like it was in the States maybe five years ago. They haven't been able to reap the benefits of the new Internet porn business model, perhaps due to same issues that I mentioned earlier. Anyway, I thought this would be a good topic of discussion, since it's one that all of us (consumers, retailers, and studio lurkers) deal with all the time. Saki ------------------ [Link] |
| Drew Black broken crankshaft 8011 Posts 9/99 | I don't want to venture a guess of how low adult DVDs will go but I do have a rough idea of how low they can go. A basic single-sided DVD can be manufactured in mass quantities (5k piece lots or greater) for $1.50 each, probably less. The keep case, printed materails and direct labor costs are somewhere between $1.25 - $2.00 per unit domestically, much less overseas. At the high end this puts manufacturing costs at $3.50 per title. Tack on any profit and royalites, licensing, overhead, etc., and you get a decent idea of what the minimum price could be. This line of thinking does not take into consideration the amortization of any costs associated with production, mastering, editing or "talent". For the vast majority of adult titles this adds up to what I would guess to be $5000 - $15,000. Consider the fact that the studios don't have an accurate means of guessing an average title's chances for success they typically amortize these costs into their first production run. This could easily add from $1 to $5 additional cost depending on the size of the first run. My rational also doesn't take into consideration the simple fact that most DVDs are just remastered VHS titles that have more than recouped their intial production costs. Let's face it there's money to be made but there's also huge money to be lost. Many people assume that online stores have little to no overhead. This is simply not true. Any quality online store with good delivery times, customer service and product selection has to have an investment in inventory, staff and a place to operate from. (Granted, they can work out of a low-rent warehouse space instead of an expensive retail spot.) The investment in development, network equipment, computers and software can be very steep for a high-volume commerce site. I read an article in The Industry Standard about 10 months ago that put the development price tag for second-generation commerce sites like DVD Empire, DVD Express and Divadee to be somewhere between 1 and 2 million dollars. That doesn't include marketing budgets. That's just development and IS infrastructure. You have to sell a helluva lot of DVDs to recoup that investment. I think we will begin to see a trend towards appropriately priced product. DVDs taht are garbage will be priced low, higher quality product from the better studios will continue to command a premium. How low can the total crap go? $7 or $8 minimum from the loss leaders in high volume. A quality adult DVD shouldn't be available for less than $20 or so from the major studios, anything less just cheapens the brand. Don't expect any major pricing changes in the near future until something like on demand streaming video threatens to take a slice of the DVD market away from the studios. |
| Drew Black broken crankshaft 8011 Posts 9/99 | Any business that sells adult materials, either online or in a traditional brick and mortar store are open targets. The online suppliers are especially at risk beacuse all transactions are logged an recorded. (At least they are at any reputable ecommerce site.) Brick and mortar adult shops tend to have a little more flexibility in their accounting practices, especially for cash transactions. |
| Saki At-Large 2087 Posts 11/99 | On the legal risk issue, I agree that bookkeeping and audit trails are quite a bit better than what you'd find at a retail location. However, I think that the likelihood of the local district attorney ordering a raid on your establishment is quite a bit higher if you run a publically accessible sex business than if you run a mail order sex business. The city I live in (and surrounding cities) has pretty much cleared out all adult businesses, including adult video and novelty shops, in recent years, citing family values, business development, and crime reduction for justification. The only that are left are in the unincorporated portions of the county. The city I used to live in (Atlanta) used to raid the chain that used to be called 9 1/2 Weeks. Homosexual sex, sodomy, and sex toys are illegal there. Every six months, like clockwork, it made the lead story on the evening news as the cops dragged out trashcans full of evidence and led clerks out in handcuffs. On the other hand Adam & Eve, Penthouse, and others all operate out of states that are prosecution-happy when it comes to sex. But they are in the mail order business, usually catering to people out of state, bringing in jobs, and staying low-key. I haven't heard of many cases where an adult on-line retailer has been prosecuted for selling adult items. I don't know whether that's because jurisdictions are relatively ignorant about the Internet, because the transactions take place in private, or because Internet businesses generally take precautions and may refuse to sell to communities where prosecution is likely. In any case, I don't know how much of a factor that prosecutorial risk contributes to the overall cost of adult videos. It seemed that the attitude used to be, "We've got to make as much money as possible before we're shut down" or "We've got to build up a nest egg so that we can afford to mount a defense or defend ourselves in a lawsuit." I don't know whether our online friends feel that this is a factor anymore. Saki |
| Janitor Retired Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99 | The prices of adult DVDs are dropping simply due to competition. While it's expensive to open a fully functional online store it's not that much to take a canned e-commerce solution and open a basic store. And everybody wants to get into e-commerce. It's the thing to do. I'd also like to see the prices reflect quality - that would give us all a better idea of what we're getting. Often this is the case, but it's not yet the norm. |
| Saki At-Large 2087 Posts 11/99 | On the issue of production costs, I understand that $15K is pretty conservative. I've heard from the independent producers that it's more like $30K. So I can see why there's an effort to recoup their costs early (in fact, I think they even hedge against not selling the whole first production run by bumping up each copy even more). I totally agree with Drew on the issue of VHS remasters, since the production costs have already been (theoretically) paid for. There are no royalties that need to be paid to the talent. And most studios (VCA being one of the exceptions) don't spend a lot of money on remastering and repackaging old content. And at least with re-releases, the studios have a pretty good idea whether the DVD will be successful based on the VHS sales numbers. On the issue of e-business costs, I didn't mean to downplay the serious startup capital that the long-term businesses must cough up. I've talked with tier 1 hosting providers and they estimate that it costs between $35 and $50 million to create a bulletproof, worldwide, and responsive e-business today with adequate customer service, fulfillment, and back office infrastructures. But I don't think most adult DVD retailers aren't to the point where they are handling thousands of order per day, nor spending millions or even hundreds of thousands on their infrastructure. Based on my observations, it looks like there are quite a few web sites that are flying by the seat of their pants. There are even more that obviously don't have the customer service or responsiveness, but will try and undercut the big players by a few bucks per disc. Although I think that we'll eventually see an emphasis return to stability and reliability for e-commerce, right now, the emphasis is on price above all else. That's why you have auctions, bargain forums (like this one), price search engines, etc. There seems to be a breakpoint of only a couple of dollars between the site that offers good service and fast shipping and the one that has the lowest price but who knows when you'll get it. For example, I might pay $2 more to order a DVD from DVD Express or Amazon because of their good service, but if the difference was $5, I'd probably take my chances. Personally, I think that the pricing of DVDs, mainstream and adult, will probably look a lot like at of audio CDs, which have withstood inflation, market changes, and studio politics. $16-20 for new content, $8-10 for budget releases, and somewhere in between for sales. Saki |
| Saki At-Large 2087 Posts 11/99 | Steph, fraud is another angle to consider, but that's not unusual to the B&M business either. My local adult video store has spent quite a bit on inventory security for their store (lighting, tons of cameras, monitors, VCRs, shoplifting sensors). Yet the walls are plastered with surveilance photos of people caught shoplifting. To rent tapes or DVDs, you have to have a driver's license (which they check via a service bureau for court judgements and other public records) and a credit card (which they run an authorization against). They also face the similar difficulty getting a reasonable merchant account (which probably explains why they have posted minimum purchase requirements to use a credit card--a violation of the card associations' rules). So while the specific challenges are different, both Internet and B&M face the same general ones. So I'd have to agree with you that competition is probably the difference... Saki |
| Drew Black broken crankshaft 8011 Posts 9/99 | |
| HoustonDon Member Houston 561 Posts 11/99 | The Sex industry, as it's so often called, makes huge profits in every conceivable manner. The front end costs are really low to produce the product and followup costs are not that much greater. Sure, there are lots of legal issues that appear to cost more but in reality they aren't that great. Much of the industry uses aliases and various holding companies to protect their assets. Cash is king too which makes the paper trails harder to follow. For every bust you see of a local sex shop, there are hundreds of days without incident. The stores that close usually do so because they are being targeted due to "other" activity going on at the business. In my city, there are 5400+ police, an aggressive set of laws, and hundreds of such stores. A few people get arrested every once in awhile because they "go too far" (usually allowing hookers or drug dealers to set up a side business). On the business model side of things, my personal take is that you really don't need anywhere near the amounts quoted to set up an e-tail business if all you are dealing with is sex related items. There are hoards of companies willing to provide you web space, plenty of suppliers willing to set up an account if your credit is good, and lots of willing people to work for you if you pay them decently. Pay your bills on time for 6 months and the suppliers will be treating you like royalty. You only need millions of dollars if you intend on competing with the likes of Amazon, DVD Express, or Reel. Worldwide sales don't warrant the huge additional costs for many businesses so I'd suggest they stay local (ie: inside the USA for most of them). The market is huge and the risks are relatively small. On a related note: Pricing is a funny thing with adult products of all kinds. As stated, the markup is tremendous. I remember a guy who started selling adult cd-rom's on ebay about 4 years ago. He started small and sold them for very competitive prices. It didn't take long before he quit his day job and made a killing. Last I heard, he branched out to dvd's and he still beats the big stores. Adult features are shot on video. They usually don't cost much to make yet for years have cost more than Hollywood. Economies of scale do not explain the difference in price. I walked into a local store last week-just to look around. They had some of the "sale" dvd's seen here for over $50 @!!! I ended up giving the guy the URL here since he claimed his distributor charged him so much. He claimed to sell mostly VHS and I showed him why (it's the price, dummy). Saki? |
| Saki At-Large 2087 Posts 11/99 |
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