Probably a whole lot more. But if you'd like to find that out, you'd have to search for some kind of gay forum, I guess. I think the infamous Marc Wallice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Holmes_(pornographic_actor) But anyway, it'll always be very hard to figure out the potential health risks involved for all parties. You never know who might be secretly gay, bi on film or off camera as a gigolo. I mean who would've thought that magic johnson would write in his autobiography that he spend a lot of night with his "good friend" Isiah Thomas in bed "talking" about life and such yea right----> or a Malik Yoba (of the popular cop series of the 90's new york undercover) who has been often spotted at gay and tranny bars in san fran and LA? Ya neva know....Yes! And I would recommend starting with his Buttman goes to Rio series and the dvd combo bend over babes 1/2----> with the lengendary stairs fuck between John and [........]And that is not doing any scenes with males who do males, be it gay or bi!I mean what is true to this??????? Doesn't the AIM test gays before scenes like they fo with hetrosexuals, or is this just a fairytale???? Edited by - adt44 on 11/10/2009 7:54:32 AM Edited to correct reference of "the late steve holmes" to state john holmes (who is clearly who you meant). Edited by - BigBobxxx on 11/10/2009 2:36:57 PM
I've never heard that a girl catch HIV from girl/girl sex. The most dangerous sex partner for a girl is an bisexual man. Best regards Steve Holmes
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This is an oversimplification. First, HIV is transmissible through say fisting if gloves are not being used and the fister has a cut (I've never heard of it either, but that doesn't mean it can't happen), second although HIV risk is minimal in girl/girl sex Hepatitis C is not. What's more, a basic AIM panel doesn't cover Hepatitis. Why not? The most dangerous sex partner anyone can have is a sex partner who is dishonest about their sexual history and refuses to practice safe sex, and or IV drug users. There are an abundance of gay and bi-sexual men who are responsible adults who don't put their sex partners at risk, and there are plenty of straight men who could give a fuck how many women they hurt. Stereotypes really don't serve the interest of increasing the overall health of the adult industry. Sadly, because the industry has such an incredibley negative attitude towards bi and trans performers it only reinforces hi risk deceptive behavior on the part of its male population. Mandy www.mandy-mitchell.com
I'm sure ChristianX' input to this thread will be valuable. No man has fucked more men, trannies and women than he did. Edited by - StormyAlektraKroseblkfan on 11/10/2009 2:53:43 PM
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Nov 10 2009 : 2:57PM
I'm surprised you didn't read his blog, "christioan sings the blues". He names names there.
We can continue having these "how-many-angels-can-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin" discussions forever. But, the heart of this continues to come down to this: AIDS articlePorn performers who choose to limit themselves to G/G only, do, in fact, dramatically reduce their potential for exposure and transmission. Remember, the talent pool in the mainstream porn world, which includes all-girl performers, is tested regularly (every 30-days) with few exceptions. The gay porn world is notoriously less stringent. So, while we all know that anybody can infect anybody, gay/straight/male/female, this fact falsely implies that there's nothing you can really do to protect yourself. (1) Working within an HIV-tested talent pool = reduces risk (2) Working G/G only = reduces risk (as this has a very-low risk of transmission -- even with an infected partner) (3) Avoiding partners that perform gay sex = reduces risk (reduces the risk of working with someone who is at a higher-risk of having been exposed, AND of being exposed between tests) (4) Avoiding partners that have hetero sex with bi-sexual partners = reduced risk Every additional step a performer takes reduces their risk. Performers need to -- and should -- work within their own comfort levels. For the life of me, I can't understand why any performer should come under attack -- regardless of which choices they make for themselves.
This is an oversimplification. First, HIV is transmissible through say fisting if gloves are not being used and the fister has a cut (I've never heard of it either, but that doesn't mean it can't happen), second although HIV risk is minimal in girl/girl sex Hepatitis C is not. What's more, a basic AIM panel doesn't cover Hepatitis. Why not? The most dangerous sex partner anyone can have is a sex partner who is dishonest about their sexual history and refuses to practice safe sex, and or IV drug users. There are an abundance of gay and bi-sexual men who are responsible adults who don't put their sex partners at risk, and there are plenty of straight men who could give a fuck how many women they hurt. Stereotypes really don't serve the interest of increasing the overall health of the adult industry. Sadly, because the industry has such an incredibley negative attitude towards bi and trans performers it only reinforces hi risk deceptive behavior on the part of its male population. Mandy www.mandy-mitchell.com
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This is so extremely far fetched, I mean, the girls fisting on camera constitute a very small group. Those girls often stay in their niche market and don't normally make a cross over to the mainstream markets where most pornstars are working in. So even if there is going to be an outbreak of STD's of any kind in that group, then the consequences wouldn't be so dramatic as it would be when bi performers or gay performes would also just as easily perform in hetrosexual productions. I'm with ya, where you say that generalizations aren't doing anybody any good, but I don't think the "general public" is way off base when they talk about the significant higher percentage of gay or bi performers escorting themselves in any way, shape or form. Consequenly, a lot more potential exposures to HIV and/or other STD's. BTW, Mandy, are you still kickin it at http://www.hungangels.com/board/I saw how you're quite an active member there when I looked for them tranny pageant pix. And what I said earlier, I really don't have any problems with tranny's doing porn, some of y'all are quite easy for the eyes. But what an unfriendly fucked up board with too much nonsence of jabbering twinks, ugly transvestites and very few decent looking trannies. *ugh* I mean, for instance, If I'm googling for Miriam Rivera or Milena Vendramine, and google leads me to the HA boards, I just wanna see pix without having to read all those weirdo's who keep cussing at eachother with "cockbandit" or have to go through threads of more than 100!!! friggin pages to see "a" pic because the men and TG's behave like little biatches. Funny shit.I must give him some props there. I'm always into casual pics of female performers when they're off camera. And he delivers, I can't deny that. Great pix of off screen bare back blowjobs in hotelrooms of the girls we all tend to love here on ADT. Maybe weird, but I like watching those pix where the girls are unpacking their luggage and take a shower, or just sit on bed looking at this Christian with cock hungry puppy eyes without all the damn porno make up on their faces. But, still, I'm still not a fan of his Anyway. I highly recommend his blog even if don't like the guy. You don't see pics of your favourite girls the way he shot them (with his point and shoot/mobile camera) anywhere else. Too bad he didn't continue his blog: http://cwians.typepad.com/
Simplifications are OK because we need to make quick decisions. Over 90% of the girls in the industry don't do fisting. The HIV infection risk for girl/girl scenes are almost zero.There are a lot of nasty STDs and we test in Europe for much more than AIM does. But the really scare one is HIV. That's what it really is all about.It is a personal decision of each girl who she works with and who she doesn't. She doesn't do this decision to serve the interest of increasing the overall health of the adult industry. Male/male sex activities statistically increase the HIV infection risk. This is not a stereotype but a fact.It is not "the industry" who makes these decisions, but individuals with their personal preferences.
So do ethnic groups. Are you also ruling out all black performers or people who work with them because HIV is much higher within their communities? Quick decision!
^ PLEASE don't derail this topic with IR. IR issues have been beaten to death here of late. You raise a valid point, but we DON'T need to make people run the IR-gauntlet over every topic. Especially when your throwing your IR gotcha at Steve Holmes -- one of the finest gentlemen in the industry, and a valued member of the ADT community! If Steve chooses to respond to you, fine. Then, I don't want to see this IR thing consume the thread. (And, I'm saying this wearing my moderator hat.)
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Nov 10 2009 : 6:58PM
Sorry. I know we were asked not to derail the topic, but I just feel the need to quickly respond, since the comparison is not valid. Of course, I know that this comment can be deleted at the discretion of the moderator. Sexual activity with members of certain ethnic groups does not increase the risk of HIV infection to the same extent as sexual activity with individuals who engage in higher-risk practices. No one has ever gotten HIV just for being of a certain ethnic group. It comes from high-risk behavior, which can occur within any ethnic group. In other words, a white gay/bisexual man is more likely to be infected with HIV than a heterosexual black man, which reinforces the point that it has more to do with behavior than anything else. OK. Now let's get back to topic.
And on that fateful day, the hatred consumed me... 1423 Posts 3/09
Posted - Nov 10 2009 : 8:13PM
Hmmm... This is a kind of topic which can can have no real resolution... Yeah, there are double standards and hypocrisies - it's rife in porn (as in the real world). Porn by its very nature, is a risky activity - fucking a multitude of people, who in turn, each fuck a multitude of people is not really something a person can expect 100% health safety in. Every performer sets their own limits (in all aspects of porn) - Some are simply nude models (methinks 100% safety there),some are GG only, some only use condoms... Most perform without, and from there they set limits on what and who they'll perform with, and the acts involved, along with the duration of their on-screen careers. The point is, it comes down to personal choice: whether prejudiced for illogical or considered reasons, if you choose not to have sex with someone you cannot be forced to do so. A person has to take personal responsibility for their actions - in regards to safety, the safest thing is not to any of it. Failing that, you set your limits... That's all...
Not sure how your illustrating behavior as a higher/highest risk is somehow off-topic, but oh well. I do find it interesting and somewhat scary how some are emphasizing orientation over risky behavior, as if the two can't be separate. It's a dangerous assumption.
Aplus, I've read this 10 times, and still can't figure out what you're saying (or why you're saying it responding to realtip) I'm not bitching at you, I just don't get it.
Well my point was simply that some are pointing to bisexual or gay orientation as a main catalyst, while downplaying or outright ignoring very risky behavior between two heterosexual people. The assumption being that risky behavior somehow is safe or safer if done by straight people. HIV isn't just a gay or bi disease. Maybe at one time it mostly was, and it probably mostly still is. Risky behavior can put anyone at risk though, and to suggest otherwise is a dangerous game. And to be very blunt, I think porn sometimes is one of the worst offenders when it comes to promoting very risky behavior.
The same could be said for TS or Bi men. If performers are simply assessing the risk of HIV infection based on statistics alone then applying that logic would justify avoiding black men and women because of higher HIV rates. Just because the HIV rate in the overall black population is much higher than in Caucasians doesn't mean that a performer is more likely to contract HIV from a black man than a white man. Same goes for TS. Just to be clear, I in no way agree with this line of thinking, rather I point it out to show how ridiculous it is to cast a blanket judgment about the safety of an entire group of people based on statistics that are (in my opinion) misleading. HIV/AIDS is not a gay disease. Straight people who believe this are sadly mistaken.
Yeah I use it as a vehicle to promote my site and name. Most of the discussions are of no interest to me, but it is a nice way to communicate with other people working in the niche.
I agree that it is the personal decision of each and every model who we choose to work with. I don't disagree with this in any way, but I do think that the "personal preference" is based on a deep seated culture of homophobia within the porn industry and as a trans performer I have every right to try and have a dialogue with your side of the biz. I mainly work with female performers (often within a BDSM context) and I know that every time a girl works with me she is assessing the risk not to her health but to her career because of the tranny stigma. Many straight people in the industry may wish we would just go away or stay confined to a small pool of people, but its not going to happen. We are all interconnected (I bet it wouldn't be too difficult for me to connect myself within 3 sexual partners to most people in the industry) and as the old IWW slogan goes "an injury to one is an injury to all". www.mandy-mitchell.com
But see thats just it Mandy. Performers use personal preference as a default answer for anything to try to hide their personal prejudices, bias, or outright ignorances. Everyone takes the same tests, so I can't quite understand the obvious overreactions. And I can surely understand your frustrations.
Mandy, you're right, it is not going to happen. But I think the time is just not yet ripe for tranny porn to go mainstream. Nacho( Vidal) made a great step in that direction, so did Rocco Siffredi and Joey Silvera (and to a lesser extend John Stagliano). I'm pretty sure that Tranny porn could possibly be the "new big thing" in the porn biz. And I'm convinced this could happen some day, but only not now and possibly not even in our life time. I mean, who would've thought in a million years that America is gonna have a black president? Certainly nobody a good 10+ years ago. In my opinion, analogical speaking, a "revolution" of that kind could, as said, also happen in regards to (trans gender) TG porn. I mean, people who have traveled a lot to Asia (Thailand (Pattaya, Patong, Phuket, Koh Samet),Philippines(Angeles City), Laos, Cambodia) or Latin America (Brazil, Colombia; Ecuador etc) or even Hawaii (and certain area's thereof), know how this TG market is a blooming business. The so called Third Sex has been to a large extend accepted in those parts of the world by hetrosexuals and for the most part considered acceptable for the same group, but only as long as these TG's are behaving like the women they'd like to be and not like gay-ish kathoey's or ladyboys (their names in Asian countries). I think you can only know and understand what I'm talking about if you've been to the aforementioned countries and have stayed there for longer then, say, 3 weeks). Quite frankly, I was amazed myself as to how big and "normal" this market is considered under hetrosexuals. Almost none of them did mind that a lot of TG's we're still pre-operative, that is still having a cock. As long as this group had tits and looked prettier than the women on the streets. As long as these TG's didn't act as queers, all was good to them. "TG's give way better blowjobs, because they know how we like it", is something I heard very often, lol. But to change the conception of TG porn In the US as being something only for gays, one has to do something about the image of TG porn, I guess. You guys need more people like Vaniity (the earlier posted shemale with Snoop Dogg) who just mingles the crowds at the AVN's to promote her market and herself (like she did) and more professional acting TG's who don't act like "proud" queers. Just act like the women you want to be and don't act like gay men. Such girls need to be recruited way more. Just girls with nice personalities without being in peoples faces all the time. That's not feminine, thus not quite appealing for men. Off course, I've put it very simple, but here is where it starts, imo. You girls have to get back 2 basic. Maybe this going back 2 basic stuff, could also change something about the image "problems" that many hetrosexuals have (such as myself) in regards of the TG market I've mentioned in earlier posts. It will be hard, but the struggle might be all worth it for TG's. I mean, if you see what kinky and somewhat extremely "perverted" stuff companies like Evil Angel are bringing on the market, than the next logical step would be TG porn. Not that TG porno is perverted (because that's certainly not the case) but 'cause people just want to see something quite different from what they've seen so far in porno flicks, especially if the have been watching por like forever. In the 70's or 80's people just watched "regular" porno, nothin special but it's getting extremer and more excited as the years go by. That's just a fact. Nowadays there is hardly any regular porn available, and if it is, it does not sell as good as the rough evil angel stuff. But I think the TG niche market shouldn't concentrate that much on bringing out DVD's: don't think anybody non-gay would like to have those laying around at their homes. You gotta make some professional looking hetrosexual orientated download web-sites AS PART OF the established porn (download) web-sites . For example, last time I checked for Monica Mattos and Janine Lindemulder, I read that they both had done a scene with Vaniity. Also Bella Donna allegedly has done 1 or 2 scenes with her or with some other TG. And I haven't heard that people are now boycotting these girls, as a matter of fact Monica Mottos has even won multiple AVN awards for best female foreign performer. Nobody talked about her past as being a performer in TG productions or even in beastiality (gross) productions. Besides it's already a good step towards the right direction, that the AVN doesn't have separate shows or other less cool looking awards for the industy's TG performers. And that the expo is full of stands with likeable and sociable TG's. Also let TG producers such as Joey Silvera and Nacho Vidal don't cast these skinny ass "twinks". I mean, that's only confirming the image as if TG porn would only be something to watch for gay people. That's what I mentioned earlier in a previous post: how can one as a male viewer identify oneself with that guy when he has this typical "gay-ish" look? Also more beautiful passable TG 's wouldn't be bad thing. And last thing, some TG's just have to realize that it will never gonna happen for them to crossover and will need to concentrate themselves on their own niche markt. Transvestites (Men with a wig, who haven't start a transition process with the use of female hormones, and without breast implants) will never be "in fashion". People, get real and just because one looks in the mirror and sees a beautiful lady (and feels like one), that doesn't mean that they are, objectively speaking. My last 2 cents. Good luck with your endeavors, Mandy!
If everyone in the industry was so concerned about HIV risk they'd do condom only scenes. This bullshit about selecting who they work with based on whether or not they engage in 'high risk' practices is delusion at best. It's still unprotected sex, so you're kidding yourself if you think you're lowering the risk with your selectivity. This logic doesn't work in the real world, so why should the sex industry be any different? HIV doesn't descriminate, even if you do. Edited by - ma meeshka on 11/11/2009 6:06:16 PM
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jasonjason Deactivated User
12 Posts 8/09
Posted - Nov 11 2009 : 6:15PM
Every single porn performer is at the same risk level as the riskiest person in the industry. The virus doesnt care if youre gay, stright, bi, or purple with pink polka dots. If you swim in the porn pool you get wet with the same water as everyone else in the pool. And this pool has alot of people pissing in it. P.s. AIM will never tell you this little fact...they will tell you that having unprotected sex with a porn star(sex worker) is safer than having sex with a civilian.(Perhaps the most laughable statement ever from an std clinic) Edited by - jasonjason on 11/11/2009 6:19:09 PM
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jasonjason Deactivated User
12 Posts 8/09
Posted - Nov 11 2009 : 6:50PM
AMEN to that. One would think that sex workers, especially sex workers who work without condoms, would be more educated about the risks. But this is porn. Keep them young and dumb and ful of cum. The fact that so many porn stars are ignorant of the risks they are taking is a testament to the great educational efforts of AIM. How can AIM tell sex workers that they are safer than civiians?(lol) Even most streetwaling prostitutes know enough to use condoms. I guess those several thousand positive std reports from AIM to county health should just be ignored. If ignorance is bliss, the porn industry must be the happiest place on earth
These are individual decisions and various people will decide differently. Whatever they decide for themselves has to be accepted. We will not force anybody to have sex.
We should be careful not to mix two topics. One is a matter of taste. Some people just don't like male homosexual activities or transsexual partners. You can't argue about taste. Just let everybody freely choose their partners. The other is the HIV infection risk. This is statistically proven higher in the gay scene. Test are no full protection. One can already infect partners before results are shown.
That is definitely not true. The risk for a guy to catch it from a girl during vaginal intercourse is extremely low. The risk to catch it by getting anally penetrated is much higher.
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jasonjason Deactivated User
12 Posts 8/09
Posted - Nov 11 2009 : 10:16PM
Point well taken Steve. Lets put it this way...every female performer is at the risk level of the riskiest person in the pool. Out of curiosity, does anyone here have an educated guess as to what the percentage of HIV psitive performers there are in the gay industry?
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Nov 11 2009 : 11:00PM
Ridiculous blather. If a performer doesn't wish to work with, let's say, brown eyed performers, that is their right. Fanboys flaming about truth, justice, hypocracy and the American way should also be tested for HIV, as their heads are buried so up their collective asses that they could easily infect themselves.
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Nov 12 2009 : 12:35AM
I totally agree. For me, it is completely a matter of taste. The only time I even brought up the STD issue in this thread was in response to someone else's post. I'm not hiding the fact that I don't care to see GBT male performers behind any excuses having to do with STD trasmission, because I agree that if you're working as a performer in porn at all, then you're already placing yourself at risk, regardless of whether it's straight or gay porn. True, gay porn presents a higher risk. But that's still not the issue as far as I'm concerned. I just don't want to see it because I don't like it. Simple as that. It would be the same as if I tried to say that I don't date men because I'm afraid I may get a life-threatening STD. No, that's not the reason. I don't date men simply because I'm not gay. That's the reason. Likewise, I'd simply rather not see men who do gay porn performing in straight porn.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Nov 12 2009 : 5:46AM
If someone doesn't like trannies I don't think there's any problem with them not doing scenes, but the often abusive and hateful language directed at trannies or those who do decide to perform with them tells you what is really going on most of the time in the 'industry.' As for risks, think of all the performers now escorting, sure they're supposed to use condoms but how does anyone know what they are doing behind closed doors for more cash?
We've had many cases of AIDS in straight porn but I've never heard about a tranny porn who tested positive to AIDS. I understand there isn't that many tranny actresses but still. I think it underlines the hypocrisy.
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Actually its pretty hypocritcal for people to claim they are protecting their health by ostracizing performers who work with TS, yet at the same time say things in regard to condom use likeNobody gives a shit about the actual risks performers are taking, they just want the girls to feel safe so they will continue having unprotected sex, and if that means uniting against the scourge of shemale porn so be it.
Some performers "give a shit," and it doesn't make them "hypocrites" for making decisions -- no matter how wrong you believe they are -- that they feel comfortable with. Even if you were 100% correct -- and you're not -- this entire thread's "hypocrisy" premise is total nonsense.
You are correct I was using hyperbole when I said nobody. As for hypocrisy, I don't really care about whether people are being hypocritical as this is not an ethics oriented business. I do care that scapegoating TS and bi male performers is used as a way to obfuscate the very real risks we take as performers when we work without condoms.
I do too - regardless of the hypocrisy angle, or whether performers should feel comfortable or not (which of course they should), I can't ignore the underlying prejudice. This doesn't mean targeting individual performers is the answer, but I do find it annoying when people avoid addressing the real problem - stigma against LGBTQ individuals. I also hate the "it's just porn" defense. This is such a meaningless and contradictory "justification" or "reason" for anything. This is starting to feel like an IR thread...
No performer needs to defend him or herself for choosing who to accept or not as a partner. Steve Holmes
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Nov 18 2009 : 12:35AM
It's just porn is not a defense, it is a fact. I really don't care if a porn entertainer won't fuck people with green eyed, or people with IQ's under 110. It's just porn, and it their body's and their business. This is not a new civil rights movement. People should quit the phoney self righteousness that infects this subject and all the IR threads that ever have or ever will exist on this forum and elsewhere. Stick enough money in front of someone's private parts, and there will be a whole lot of fucking going on, it doesn't matter what the genre is. It's just porn and not jihad. I think that I will now go spend some quality tine with myself.
Very easy to say when its not you on the other side feeling discriminated against. It might be their right, but it doesn't necessarily mean it still doesn't stink. I suppose they can always just go back to their unsanitary anal sex scene with ATM to make them feel safer.
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Nov 18 2009 : 10:33AM
^If the issue was about bankers, carpenters, nurses or some other main stream occupation or profession, I'm with you. But when comes to getting naked and exchanging bodily fluids, all bets are off. It does not need to be rational or even fair, it is personal. Are we next to accuse hetro-sexual performers of discrimination, because they may refuse to engage in gay sex? When it comes to the subject at hand, we see more and more main stream female performers engaging with trannies, Belladonna and Janine, leap to mind. Times and attitudes are always subject to change, without becoming hyperbolic about it.
If you don't break the rules, you'll never have any fun! 717 Posts 10/06
Posted - Nov 18 2009 : 12:54PM
One thing I noticed when I originally got into the "Swing" lifestyle was that there was this almost complete dislike, bordering on hatred for any guy who might be Bi or Bi-Curious. However, it was almost an unwritten law that all women be willing to do other women. In porn there are a number of people who wouldn't want to perform with me because I'm a BBW..I can't say that I think too much about it. People will do what they want to do and who they feel comfortable doing it with. I can't see it as a big deal either way.
I was specifically *not* talking about performers - I was talking about fans/critics/etc. I have argued before that targeting individuals is not fair, and not useful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Holmes_(pornographic_actor)
yea right----> 
or a Malik Yoba (of the popular cop series of the 90's new york undercover) who has been often spotted at gay and tranny bars in san fran and LA?
....]And that is not doing any scenes with males who do males, be it gay or bi!I mean what is true to this???????
I saw how you're quite an active member there when I looked for them tranny pageant pix. And what I said earlier, I really don't have any problems with tranny's doing porn, some of y'all are quite easy for the eyes. But what an unfriendly fucked up board with too much nonsence of jabbering twinks, ugly transvestites and very few decent looking trannies. *ugh* I mean, for instance, If I'm googling for Miriam Rivera or Milena Vendramine
, and google leads me to the HA boards, I just wanna see pix without having to read all those weirdo's who keep cussing at eachother with "cockbandit" 
or have to go through threads of more than 100!!! friggin pages to see "a" pic because the men and TG's behave like little biatches. Funny shit.I must give him some props there. 
