The UN theme for this Saturday's International Women's Day was "Equality for Women is Progress for All". In honour of that theme, I want to pay my respects to the women in the adult entertainment industry, who have stood and are standing up against the pervasive sexual inequalities in our societies, and in particular against the patriarchal hypocrisy of "slut shaming". These women need to be lauded for their courage and their battles to achieve equality in sexual practices and societal mores, their sex-positive attitudes and their independent and assertive stances against the prevailing culture. In furtherance of achieving sexual equality, I support all of the women we enjoy so much on this forum for their right to choose to express their sexuality in a positive manner. We men must come out of our closets and declare with these women that their right to perform in porn is a valid choice, both in terms of the enjoyment of sex itself and as a means of gaining their own sexual freedom and financial independence. As an example of such magnificent women, I encourage you to read Angela White's biography on her own brilliant website.
^ I'd say that 'slut-shaming' is something women engage in more than men. Because many women see porn stars as competitors for their boyfriend's or husband's attention. There are more women voters than men voters in US society. Which means that any issue the women unite on will be theirs for the taking. The only problem is that women don't unite. They often compete against each other. And this is especially true for women's views about porn stars. Many women in mainstream society look down on porn stars. The word 'slut' has a positive meaning for me and for many other men. But when one woman calls another a slut, then she usually means it as an insult, rather than as a complement.
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A-ten Deactivated User
581 Posts 8/07
Posted - Mar 10 2014 : 10:40AM
The vast majority of men are never going to be ok with the women they care about engaging in this behavior. Women wouldn't even want to live in a society of men that look at them as fungible sex toys they don't need to love because every woman will give up the body to them whenever they want it. The main requirement men have of women once they decide they love them is sexual fidelity. You think that is going to change? What kind of delusion do you live under? Even men must be faithful to keep their women. I swear. Guys that watch porn start to lose sight of real life. Men are expected to not be sluts either. The majority of men do not think other men that bang around are cool, especially if they are cheating on their wives and thus their family. Both men and women are expected to practice sexual fidelity in a relationship in normal society. Porn isn't normal society. It's a whole other world. Normal society will never embrace the values practiced in porn. As far as porn as a productive career, it can be. Girls like Katja Kassin can write a book on how to do manage a porn career. She didn't seem to fall too deeply into the pitfalls and used her earnings productively. She seems to be exiting the industry in a positive way moving into a professional career. That's the best way to use a porn career if you don't hit it huge.
Thank you Pornorator. I agree with you, Dan, that women also engage in "slut shaming" other women. But I don't think it's helpful to say that "women engage in [it] more than men". It's a problem stemming from a culture that has historically attempted to control the sexuality of women (and men in different ways too). Both men and women engage in reinforcing the status quo, but blaming women for the 'majority' of slut shaming misses the point: that women are under immense pressure to position themselves on the correct side of the good girl/bad girl dichotomy and that some women may resort to measures that are antithetical to social change to do so. It's not excusable, but it's understandable to an extent. But regardless of who engages in "slut shaming" more or less, for social change to really occur I believe we need to do less finger pointing and take more action. This is a problem with our culture, not just one gender. A-ten, I don't even know where to start with your comment. Obviously, you have a right to your opinion, but that's all that is. You seem to take monogamy and sexual fidelity as the norm at face value. If monogamy makes you happy, that is awesome! I wouldn't tell you how to express your sexuality. But not all of us practice monogamy or find it a healthy way to engage in sexuality. I also think that you are ignoring the fact that it IS more socially acceptable for men to sleep with multiple women and they are often encouraged and congratulated for doing so. In contract, women are denigrated and shamed for it.
Thanks for your contribution, Angela. As a matter of interest, would it be possible to obtain access to your Honours thesis? I'd be greatly interested in your discussion and conclusions.
I'll be able to give you access very soon. I'm actually about to rework it for something I can't go into details about at this moment. I'll also be updating it with the new research that has been released so it will be even more relevant to the industry in 2014.
I don't know of any surveys or studies that say whether men or women engage in slut-shaming more. But in my personal experience, the most vehement slut-shamers I've ever met were women and not men. The worst men I've met in this regard calmly advocated ostracism of the so called sluts. But the worst women I've met in this regard showed real anger against slut-women and even delight, when so called-slut women suffered rape or some other violence or misfortune. The difference between men and women in my experience wasn't cultural or religious. They were from the same background. The only difference between them was their gender. I think the reason why religious, very conservative women are so angry at so called sluts is that women who show their bodies a lot easily win the attention of men. The conservative women have no chance at all in their competition with sluts for the attention of men. They lose every time. And that's what makes them angry. Nobody likes to lose. While conservative men often express sentiments against slut-women as a way of placating and mollifying their conservative spouses and girlfriends. They do it to show their loyalty to their conservative women, and not necessarily because they have strong feelings against slut-women.
Great post for International Women's Day - nice one, Pornorator. Maybe we can keep the thread focused on the positivity of that sentiment and not get bogged down in nonsense.
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Mar 11 2014 : 9:26PM
And the correlation between "equality for women" and pornography is what, exactly?
^ Did you read the original post? Are you aware of sexual double standards?
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Mar 11 2014 : 10:38PM
^ I know what "slut shaming" is, although I doubt this was high on the list of issues regarding "equal rights for women" for the United Nations International Women's Day. Of course I'm not cool with this "slut shaming," but I think it goes without saying that this issue is rather petty when compared to the terrible injustices women in other countries around the world face. I just don't agree with the OP using this International Women's Day as a jumping-off point to talk about "slut shaming" in regards to women in porn.
^ Slut-shaming often leads to discrimination in employment, ostracism within the community, and even murder in some countries, where people call it 'honor killing'. This issue is very important for the women involved. But I think this is more a human rights issue than a women's rights issue. Because women are divided on this issue. Many women also engage in slut-shaming, discrimination, ostracism, and sometimes participate in honor killings of their relatives too.
^^ Your entitled to your opinion, but I obviously beg to differ, especially when posting on a forum dedicated to our enjoyment of porn and its performers. In this context, surely female adult performers are the appropriate target group. If I had wanted to point out my support to abolish other injustices against women as a result of gender inequality, I would have done so on other, appropriate forums. Further, I was not aware that the application of the theme of this year's International Women's Day was restricted to a particular number of issues deemed worthy of such. Surely it applies to any area where gender inequality exists. Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka, United Nations Under-Secretary-General and Executive Director of UN Women, released a message for International Women’s Day 2014 on 3 March. In concluding her remarks, I would argue that her call to action is entirely applicable to the practice and purpose of "slut shaming" - and of course any other gender inequalities - that female adult performers, as well as all women in general, are subjected to:See more at: UN Women: <uEquality for Women is Progress for All</u, 3 March 2014. I will commit to the "SHE imperative" and one of the ways in which I will be doing so, I will continue to stand up against the practice of "slut shaming" and any other gender inequalities that apply to the adult entertainment industry. Edited by - Pornorator on 3/12/2014 9:17:33 AM
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Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Mar 13 2014 : 12:54AM
^ Okay, although I think there's a difference between the slut shaming mentioned above, where women in some places are criminally punished and in the worst cases physically harmed, and the general stigma that's always existed for the women who do porn. The reality is that we're a long ways away from the business of pornography being accepted as just another average 9-to-5 job; the stigma attached to those who choose to perform sex acts on camera, for everyone to see, and get paid for it isn't gonna disappear anytime soon. (I'm assuming that is the basis of your idea here-that women who do porn should be viewed no differently than any other woman out there with any other job.)
I'm all for discussing slut shaming and porn stars on International Women's Day. But I wonder if the shaming of pornographic performers is limited to women. I doubt a guy who performed in porn could hope to get a job as a schoolteacher. Are there are differences between how society treats male and female porn stars? I hope Angela will continue to engage, and I'm hoping some male porn stars share their two cents as well.
I agree that it is still socially more acceptable for a man to be a slut but I hope that we are moving toward a more equitable place where it isn't because there is no way that we should lionize a guy that sleeps with multiple partners while we slut shame a woman that does the same. I know that I don't and I don't think I'm alone in doing that. Of course all that means is that we should slut shame bot men and women who sleep with multiple partners but that is equality of the genders. Edited by - pat362 on 3/13/2014 11:00:19 AM
I'd also like to point out that if there is one industry where sexual equality is skewed more toward women than it's porn because women are paid significantly more than men and they are not slut shamed for performing with multiple partners but are actually asked to work with more. Now life after porn is probably different but is it really any different for the guys that have done porn? I would say that the only guys that don't have a problem getting a job in another industry after porn are those that didn't make a name for themselves because all the others are recognized as much for their sexual prowess as they are for their looks. Edited by - pat362 on 3/13/2014 11:17:40 AM
No, the exact opposite. We should celebrate both men's and women's rights to choose their own sexual preference, whether monogamous or otherwise, as long as it involves the consent of all concerned.
^I don't want to debate the merits of sexual liberty because it has nothing to do with this discussion. All I'll say is that the current reality as I stated before is that women get slut shamed for doing exactly what some guys get lionized for and that should not happen.
A-teen has a valid point. Society is far from embracing porn as normal if you define "normal" as what most people do. I feel flattered that A-teen thinks I should write a book about how to manage a porn career but I'm not going to. I wouldn't recommend a career in porn to anyone because the consequences of being or having been a porn performer can be so far reaching for an individual that I would always urge anyone to reconsider it. I've been in the process of changing my life for the past 5 years. It's a very long, difficult road. I always felt like I had to work extra hard to be taken seriously. It really gets to you when you get outed, when everyone talks about you behind your back, when people post anynomous stuff on a college forum, when professors make fun of you in class. It takes a lot of courage to not only persevere through it all but also come out with a smile. I'm not worried about myself because I work hard, I go the extra mile and put in all my energy but not everyone is like that. I don't really like to be used as the poster child of "life after porn" or an example that it's no big deal to be a porn star and live a regular live after. Believe me when I say that my life is not regular. I still feel the effects of my past porn life, it has an aftermath especially if you have been in it for a while. I know all the new girls want to "make a name" for themselves, win awards, be in mainstream but once you get out you realize that the name recognition wasn't really a good thing because it turns into a liability and something that negatively effects you.
^ I'd say that having a porn background can be a big disadvantage, if you go into a totally unrelated career after you finish with porn. Because many people remember you in a different way, and it's hard for them to believe that you've changed so much that you aren't a porn star any more. But if you go into some related field, then being a former porn star is a big help, rather than a hindrance. With your background in porn, it would make sense for you to find some work in the porn industry, even after you stop being a porn star. I imagine that talent agencies and porn companies could use some help in recruiting and training new porn stars. This is something you could help with. Or you can go to school to learn film-making and photography to start making porn. Even opening your own porn shop or a strip-club or partnering with someone else would work well for a former porn star. Because many guys would recognize your name and might visit your business just to see you.
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - Mar 14 2014 : 12:01PM
^Did I miss something here? Did you just summarily dismiss all of Katja's past/future educational work and her desire to help people in need by basically saying she should just hang out in strip clubs? It's one thing to talk about someone's slutty performance on a DVD, but to insult them on such a personal level the way you just did is completely amazing. Talk about Slut Shaming. Edited by - rosco fuji on 3/14/2014 12:05:54 PM
^ Dan, you just told a human being that she should not pursue the career path she has already been pursuing for the last several years. How can that not be seen as insulting?
^ I would call this being realistic, rather than being insulting. Getting insulted by truth is a sure way for people to end up living lies for the rest of their lives.
^ Katja Kassin sounds like she regrets her porn career because of the difficulties she has had so far in her new field. Which means that this isn't something to recommend to other former porn stars. Because they will likely have similar difficulties and be unhappy for the same reasons.
^ Yeah but no one is recommending it for other stars. The problem Rosco had, and that I have, is that you told Katja to stop pursuing her career. No one is talking about hypothetical statements. No one is talking about general cases. You specifically told another human being what to do with her life. You didn't suggest, you didn't recommend, you told her.
^ Perhaps you need some lessons in reading, because you've clearly misread what I've said. It's either that, or you are being deliberately dishonest in your criticism of what I've said, because you didn't include a relevant quotation of my words.
^ You know what, you're right. (Um, sort of.) You didn't straight up order her to do something else. I way overstated that. Sometimes after you read something then get talking it becomes different in your head. (Emotions take over, etc.) I'll fully confess to having done that here. I apologize. However, what you did do was suggest a different career path for her other than the one she is already in. Why do that when she is already pursuing it? I could see suggesting that for someone who has not yet left porn, but why suggest that for someone who is already making a living at something else? In other words, my problem was that your idea - pursuing something related to porn - might be a good suggestion to someone wondering what they should do when they leave porn, but why suggest it to someone who already has a career? It seems like you're - to use Rosco's word - dismissing what they're currently doing. It would be like me saying to a doctor "hey you know what? I know you've got a great job and you spent years in medical school and everything, but you should be a lawyer instead." I mean why would I say that? And how could the doctor not possibly find it insulting?
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Rosco Fuji Deactivated User
On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09
Posted - Mar 14 2014 : 9:11PM
I didn't misread anything. Let's go to the tape shall we? "Because many people remember you in a different way, and it's hard for them to believe that you've changed so much that you aren't a porn star any more." But if you go into some related field, then being a former porn star is a big help, rather than a hindrance. With your background in porn, it would make sense for you to find some work in the porn industry, even after you stop being a porn star. I imagine that talent agencies and porn companies could use some help in recruiting and training new porn stars. This is something you could help with. Or you can go to school to learn film-making and photography to start making porn. Even opening your own porn shop or a strip-club or partnering with someone else would work well for a former porn star. Because many guys would recognize your name and might visit your business just to see you." What part of any of this is not insulting? You basically slut shamed her 3 times in 3 paragraphs. Edited by - rosco fuji on 3/14/2014 9:14:43 PM
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Thyrium Deactivated User
44 Posts 3/09
Posted - Mar 15 2014 : 2:31AM
You want equality? EQUAL PAY FOR MALES. Edited by - thyrium on 3/15/2014 2:32:10 AM
I didn't work my ass off for 4 years at school to get my degree to do nothing with it. I am going to graduate at the top of my class summa cum laude, 4.0 GPA. I'm very good at what I do and this is what I love and want to do. I have no doubt that I will succeed in my new life. I am already doing it. My point was that I had to work harder than if I hadn't been in porn. I don't think it's unrealistic to be able to leave porn and start a new, successful and happy life. I do think that it's not easy and the road there is long and full with obstacles. I will no longer let other people dictate what I can or cannot do. I am the master of my own fate. It's only up to me, if I'm wiling to work hard for it and do whatever it takes, I can do anything I put my mind to. I believe in myself and I know what's inside of me. I am the one who knows what's realistic, I am the one who makes the decision and I am the one who sets the goals and takes all the steps to get there. I want to work in the mental health field and that's what I'm gonna do. Simply because that's what I want. I don't care if it makes sense to others, if they approve of it, what they think about it or whether they believe it's realistic. It's my life and not theirs. Edited by - KatjaKassin on 3/15/2014 3:36:53 PM
This is a classic example of linear causality: Porn star > no more other life choices possible > will never be anything other than porn star And this is not doing a person justice. It's true that having been a porn star can lead to some unique obstacles but going as far as saying that a former porn performer can't do anything else is not giving that person or the complexity of life enough credit.
@Katja: As I have remarked before on your thread, both your academic achievements and career choice are laudable. It is a great shame that your porn career has left such a stigma, but in our sexually repressive society and prevailing politics that is indeed no surprise. Such hypocrisy is a fact of life, but I would think that some of us can at least raise our voices a little. Although I made my OP with specific reference to female adult performers within the context of this forum, of course the greater point is that sexual inequality applies to all women. You would think that in the 21st century it's time for the human race to grow up a little. @Dan: Words (almost) fail me. How dare you, sir. Yours is exactly the kind of male hypocrisy I was referring to, couched in your pseudo-intellectual ramblings. These are not only inane. but dangerous. I will choose to ignore any further comments you choose to post, on this or any other threads.
You rock. This all reminds me of a quite troubling fb post a performer wrote some weeks back stating that due to whorephobia and the stigmatizing of sex workers, she currently feels trapped in sex work when she would rather use her varied skill set to work in a different field at this stage in her life. She has experience in marketing and media production, but doesn't feel she can list these qualifications on her CV due to the nature of that experience (porn). What a hypocritical world, where sex workers are shamed for being sex workers on the one hand, and then basically told no, you cannot work in other fields so you must continue working within the field we shame you for. Talk about shameful.
@GGG: It almost defies belief, really. And it works on so many levels. In my previous employment, I once experienced a consultant being hired on a project for no other than this reason: she had the biggest tits. Shameful indeed. Edited by - Pornorator on 3/15/2014 10:18:51 PM
Maybe I read this incorrectly but I fail to see what doing porn has to do with her putting facts on a CV relating to work experience even if those experiences were acquired in the porn industry because I believe that more than one person works both in mainstream media and the porn industry and I've never heard that they had problems with working in both industries. Marketing a movie in any industry is pretty much the same thing. The only difference is the budget allocated for the task and the people you will have to deal with. The only place where I think porn performers dig a whole for themselves that they will have a hard time digging themselves out of is in regards to schooling and work experience. For instance if a performer gets a diploma in accounting but decides to do porn for a few years. The fact that she was top of her class would not necessarily be an asset once she leaves porn to seek a job in accounting because she would be further away from her schooling and would not have any work experience in the field she got her diploma. Can anyone really blame an employer who prefers to hire someone who has the education and the work experience over someone who has the education but never bothered to get the work experience?
This whole thing about digging your way out of the hole is suspicious to me. Maybe you should stop digging a hole and start climbing to get out of the whole situation
In all seriousness gaining practical experience works the same for (ex) porn performers and regular young college students: internships, volunteering, using university job fairs, college career center etc but it's always a difficult thing to get your foot in the door of a new career field. You have to network, hustle, write numerous applications, work for free or for not much... I'm going through it currently and have been in the last 4 years. It's a process and it's not different for non porn people.
Katja is right. It applies to any career change where you are unable to point to previous work experience, or of course when you are looking for that first job straight out of college. If I may steer this back a little to the topic of this thread, sexual equality, in general are making such career changes any harder for women as they are for men? As for women who specifically have a background as sex workers, there seems to have been an easing of the stigma and discrimination in my country ever since prostitution became legalised. The topic of sex workers who have made it their career choice has been discussed in the media so much since, that is has become if not accepted, at least tolerated more, or as an understandable reason for generating an income.
^ I agree, there has been a fairly rapid lessening of stigma, but most people I know don't even know what the phrase "sex worker" means. It really depends where you live, how urban the area is, what sub-community you frequent etc. I am told by some "No one will care you studied porn, everyone is fine with it," and then the next week I get kicked off the schedule of a festival in the neighbouring town (true story!). I can only imagine what it must be like for sex workers.
^ Yes, that dichotomy within a geographical area is interesting. I was born and raised in Amsterdam, so with a very open attitude and exposure to sexuality in all its myriad of forms. Our downstairs neighbour was a prostitute who sometimes sat in her window in the afternoons. She always waved to me coming home from school, radiantly beautiful in her white lace. However, it doesn't take long to drive to the most conservative, religious towns where a mere visit to Amsterdam would have been regarded as an act of blasphemy. I can't imagine what it must have been like to grow up there, channelling all that repressed sexual energy into bible thumping hypocrisy...
I agree with that. For example, my mother is a former pornographic actress. It's almost ten years when she ended her career in the adult industry. My mom is currently a very successful entrepreneur. She manages her own restaurant. But my mother will be for a lot of people still only a porn star (at best), or even a whore (in the worst case). Edited by - jerryzimmerman on 5/22/2014 5:30:32 PM
^ And hopefully to the more enlightened, she will be celebrated for her being exactly who she is and the choices she made for herself. Tell her from me: bravo!
