i think when you define a girl having limits as 'how far can we push her till she says no,' then i don't like that kind of thing. what i would like is if the woman were in control of the situation, and was always two steps ahead of the man. instead of the men and the fanboys pestering for this and that, the woman would make that step herself in an assertive manner. that's not to say she's stepping up to anal, then dp's, then 500 men gangbangs, but rather in each of her scenes she leads the dance. there are many girls out there that do this, and i think most fans don't care what they do, as long as the illusion of the woman with no limits is maintained, and the way i just said is a very succesful way, imo.

i also agree that no man should be willing to do something to a woman without sacrificing something of equal value on his end.

'my name is "Peg"'

[who you tryin' ta get crazy with, ese? donchu know i'm loco?]

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[who you tryin' ta get crazy with, ese? donchu know i'm loco?]

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[who you tryin' ta get crazy with, ese? donchu know i'm loco?]

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Just because a performer is "down" with anal sex doesn't mean she shouldn't charge more (i.e., whatever she feels like charging) for performing anal in a scene. Hell, I assume most peformers are "down" with vaginal sex -- but that doesn't mean they should be fucking in front of cameras for free.

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I love watching anal. I just think it's become so automatic that it's boring most of the time.

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I can't handle juxtapositions like that! My brain and crotch can't bear the strain!

I'm no multi-tasker, that's for sure!

<edited to spell "ogling" properly>

Edited by - bob on 8/10/2006 12:58:33 AM

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But for me, this remains a messy compliance, because I equate sexual consent to the possibility of answering "yes" or "no" to a sexual act, and I can't see female agency existing in a fantasy where this answer must always be the former. So you might say that sex doesn't have to be forced on the porno fantasy girl, because it isn't in the script--"no" doesn't exist. And in the case of those nonconsensual scenarios, "no" usually turns into "yes" once the action starts, anyway. So for me, this happy compliance often operates the same as loss of consent within the pornographic spectacle. But for many of you, its just semantics. We'll leave it.

The term "violation," as Bob notes, is not what most fans (we'll leave the "painful anal" folks out here) are looking for. I think in my haste I was thinking in terms of female agency being violated, not particular physical orifices.

I think what I was suggesting here (if I can remember now) is that this type of prevalent porno female is connected to the desire for the "woman with no limits." For those fan-boys who stake their sexual identity on the prodigious consumption of hardcore, the proof of the female's happy compliance is a willingness to engage in ever more astounding acts of sexual virtuosity; for some men, this is possibly about control, for others, it might be a vindication that female sexual agency can perfectly conform to the fulfillment of male desire (maybe this is what Bob is thinking of?).

In any event, there is nothing "real" about it. BDGal is hard to follow because she keeps moving back and forth between actuality (real-life sex, prostitution) and the pure simulacra of erotica. The two are only related in the most rudimentary, biological ways. As she herself says:

PS: But there is another aspect to the "woman with no limits" figure that I've thought about while re-reading this thread, which hasn't been touched on before. Men--including me--have always marveled jealously at the sexual capacity of women: the way female orgasm works; the remarkable number of erogenous zones they have and the way they seem to experience sex with their entire body, where we men tend to experience sex locally as a spurting penis; plus the way they lack the hormonal depression that sets in with us guys often after sex concludes. It seems as though sexual euphoria exists for women in ways that men can't really approach. I wonder if this is also part of the fascination with the limitless woman--the idea that her body seems to suggest a lack of limitations whereas a man's desire goes away in an instant in a wad of ball snot. I have no idea if this connects with anything else here, but I'm musing.

PPS: It's really unfair to use Belladonna as an example of anything that normally goes on in the average pornographic video--she is one of those rare performers who totally transcends the framework of the genre she works in. I would compare her, in porno, to Chambers in the 1970's, or maybe Mynx in the 1990's, only much more so. Belladonna may be the most unique performer, male of female, to have ever appeared in hardcore. It's not simply a matter of ability--it's also a matter of difference.

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Nice to see you back in this thread!

You wrote:

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the way i see it is, the woman has to know her limits, but also has to keep an element of mystique about her and lead the viewer to believe that she would always go further (if that's what they desire) but never actually having to do so.

example? brittney skye didn't do anal for a long time, and she was instantly one of my favourite performers (still is) because of her attitude. she was confident with her abilities and comfortable with whatever she did, and she is still like that. that was hot enough for me, even though i am a huge anal fan. when she eventually did anal... yeah, it was hot, but it was just an expansion of her repertoire, really, because she had the whole package already.

[who you tryin' ta get crazy with, ese? donchu know i'm loco?]

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Edited by - alexander portnoy on 8/10/2006 8:31:56 AM

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Edited by - tonyc on 8/10/2006 4:48:18 PM

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The first time I saw a Playboy at my mom's ex-boyfriend's house, I was shocked. I was shocked when I watch my first Skinemax softcore flick, and shocked at my first hardcore Internet clip. Then again at the first blowjob, first anal, first DP, DA, DV, ATM, ATP, and every other pornism you can think of that I witnessed on video. But now, I can't just look at any particular performer doing any particular act to really turn me on. There's only so many things you can do with a mouth, a cock, two breasts, a vagina, and an asshole, and if I haven't seen them all, I must be getting close. There's no particular rhyme or reason behind what makes me click, but if a performer has that je ne sais quoi, I'm hooked on whatever she does.

As far as the "no limits" paradigm goes, the fantasy wears thin upon its realization, because for us humans, sex is not just about the act itself, but the pursuit of the act as well. If a woman has no limits, if the depths of her perversion cannot be measured, if there is absolutely nothing dirty enough or violent enough that she will not do to turn a man on, any man, then where is the challenge in trying to convince her to do it? Those of us who are "anally inclined" aren't so merely because it feels good: we want to persuade that desired partner into it, to convince him or her that their fears of pain, humiliation, and inhumanity are unfounded.

In the world of dating and sex, very few of us go for the sure things. We'd rather spend every day for years talking to that girl at school, that guy you work with, the cute waitress at the trendy restaurant, just so that they might notice you for a single second. Yes, there are people who aren't your type and may possibly be insane that like you; yes, you might have a close friend that you might be interested in taking the relationship to the next level. But in either of those cases, there is sufficient reason not to take those paths: for the first, an encounter would not leave you satisfied, and for the second, pursuing more could ruin what you already have. So, we set the bar high. Eventually, she might notice me, and maybe we'll go on a date, and another and another until we consider ourselves a couple. Then maybe she'll let me come in, and maybe that will lead to a blowjob, and maybe to sex, and hopefully we can do it again. Every step is more unlikely than the one before it, but we carry on anyway, because we want to be able to prove to ourselves that we can attain that.

If I go out tomorrow and meet a woman who tells me that there's nothing she wants more than to choke on my cock until she pukes, then drink my piss as if it were champagne while hanging from the ceiling by her nipples and taking toys the size of the Incredible Hulk's fist up her ass, I would think two things: first "Is this girl serious?", and second, "What happens after that?" Quite frankly, where could it possibly go from there?

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Another example of the confusion of mixing fantasy with reality.

Ok, enough of that.

To me, saying that porn is a visual record of sex is like saying that L'Avventura is a visual record of a few actors wandering around Sicily (which, ironically, some critics more or less claimed when it was released). True enough as far as it goes, but meaningless as a explanation of the content and purpose of the work.

I think what your suggesting is that graphic sexual depictions, because of their inherent "realness," rupture whatever fictional frames we try to place them within?

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..with that said judging from some of the posts by the porn girls..they are in porn to experience some of the freakier limits of their sex. They get off on taking it way out there...that is hot to me.

However, if "the girl is taking it way out there" because the director ordered her to or because of "market pressure" and is not getting off...fast forward..pop the DVD..close the computer...not hot..gross!

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[invalid URL removed]Babes with No Limits 1
[invalid URL removed]Babes with No Limits 2
[invalid URL removed]Babes with No Limits 3

The blurb on the back cover of [invalid URL removed]Babes with No Limits 1 is instructive:

Clearly, my observations in this thread are not original. Many people who market porn understand this fantasy only too well and play to it directly.

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Apparently, recent research by cross-cultural sexologists has conclusively established that women who have been raised in severely depressed economies have an in-bred, instinctive, and sincerely authentic relaxation of both their sexual limits and their sphincters.

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The Internet: the most humourless medium known to man.

How am I supposed to know these things? I just thought you were retarded.

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Same thing for porn, when a women always do the same thing, it become boring with time so you hope for new things.

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hey now, WHOO, look at that!

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2.) Wanting to see real "chemistry" between a male and a female in a vaginal sex scene, but having no idea why the performer even wants to do vaginal scenes. Is she motivated by money , and can act really well to convince us that she has chemistry with the person she is working with.
Or if she's genuine.

To make a movie analogy, when I watched the matrix, I wasn't very concerned about how the stunts were pulled off, or whether the actors were hurt leading up to or after the movie production. I was concerned with how well the characters were able to induce a suspension of disbelief by performing convincing roles. I'm not saying whether this is right or wrong but it's how I;ve instinctively watched movies

I think porn is really not that much different. Many of us want to see hot performances that entertain us in different ways (anal sex,vaginal sex) just like people like different types of movies that have inherently different degrees of danger in creating them (driving miss daisy vs. a jackie chan movie), but while watching them some of us are so engrossed in the film itself that we don't worry about the making of the film, because doing so would jar us back into reality and we watch the movies to escape reality or experience a different reality .As a result we become more focused on the movie itself, and we may want to see more films of this same type.

That's how I used to feel about anal; that I see so many interviews with starlets that say they do not want to do anal, but after becoming more comfortable with the industry itself (aurora snow for instance), that I assume that many starlets may like anal but don't know it yet. So I naively hope that the starlet's interests and my interests coincide by her deciding to do anal. And again I think this is something that we all hope for to some degree,for some it's as basic as hoping that a girl decides to do nudity, despite not knowing the possible family , and religious pressures for her not to.

To conclude this rambling thought, I don't think it's inherently bad to ask a new performer if they do anal, if you enjoy watching it, because we have absolutely no idea whether this starlet is not doing anal because of health reasons or simply because she is waiting to establish her career first. We won't learn this unless we ask. I do agree however that incessantly nagging a star on a message board about anal is not constructive, if they've already given their reasons why they will not do it.

I didn't mean for this post to offer solutions to the problem but merely to try and show that my opinions on the matter may stem from the same desires as others that may have a different position from me

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