I must say this: I loved the scene in Private's Cape Town 1 (1996) where Blondie and Demia Moor are teen friends, and Blondie's father and his new wife are watching them in secret when they engage in some lesbian sex, and get turned on and start fucking. Not the most realistic plot, but it's a hot scene.

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Ryan Ryans paired with Gracie Glam
https://wlt.realitykings.com/scene/9534/gimme-some-sugar

And Ryan Ryans with Celeste Star
https://wlt.realitykings.com/scene/9072/pussy-petting

That last recommendation exemplifies what is missing from today's GG porn. Celeste Star does get over-the-top in her porn acting, but the way she and Ryan Ryans physically come into contact with each other is unmatched by today's efforts. There are a few exceptions, but performers doing GG today are generally unwilling to commit to that degree of nasty and genuine enthusiasm with other women that Ryan and Celeste display for any significant length of time. In today's content, if you want to see something in a GG video besides the girls making cow and cat sounds at each other while limiting physical contact as much as possible, you can forget it. Again, there are increasingly rare exceptions, but that is how content generally is.

Best performers to watch are, as you said, seen at their best in the early 2010s, and they had names like Malena Morgan, Georgia Jones, Bree Daniels, Gracie Glam, Ryan Ryans, Celeste Star (even though her faking moaning can be annoying, she never shied away from the ladies), Dani Daniels, Jessie Andrews, Elle Alexandra, just to name a few.

For recent good performers, watch Freya Parker, Lilly Belle, and Alex Coal. Each has a certain watchable baseline regardless of who they are paired with, even if the other performer is just terrible. Lilly and Alex were really good together in their Girlfriendsfilms shoot.

I also like Maddy May, and she absolutely would have done well working with people like Malena Morgan and Bree Daniels back then. She has a willingness with women that most performers just do not have today. Watch her Girlfriendsfilms appearance with Vivian Foxx (another good recent performer, but I think she has quit). The woman is entirely unafraid of pussy.

Edited by - Lezzyist on 6/24/2024 5:04:32 PM

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The other stupid trend I see a lot now is the "Repeat the cum shot 5 times at the end in multiple not really different camera angles and at varying speeds. Good lord that's annoying, especially when the camera angle doesn't even change.

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I don't want to assert categorically that lesbian sex makes better porn than straight sex. There is the bonus of having more beautiful asses in the frame. If there were a place for me to register myself as a "pygophilist," I'd happily sign on. But great GG pairings are both arousing and educational. One or both of the ladies teach you something about the female orgasm that you might never have known.

Back in the '80s, porn movies had obligatory lesbian scenes, always in the middle like the scherzo in an otherwise allegro symphony. Usually the setup was that one girl had been spurned or rejected by her man, and she rushes to her best friend for comfort and instead they get it on. There was a mutual understanding between them that this was "substitute sex" for the real thing. I'd come to the conclusion as a young man that lesbian pairings were good for double the ass, but they were kind of a side-dish. One night I had rented "Ginger on the Rocks" because, well, Ginger Lynn, and do I need any other explanation? In the third scene, there's the usual rejected-girl-seeks-comfort-from-best-friend scene. It's with Amber Lynn, who I always thought was competent and a lovely pose, but not really the sexual dynamo that Ginger was.

Then they did something I never saw before, and I might have left evidence on the ceiling of my apartment: They inserted a double-dildo and went butt-to-butt. I had fantasized about whether such a position would be possible, but concluded it would never be sexy. Damn, was I wrong. Now, because editors in those days still considered lesbian scenes obligatory, the penetration there didn't last even a full minute. But from that moment on, I was driven to find more aggressive ass-to-ass penetration.

It was the early '90s before my prayers were answered with Bruce Seven's Buttslammers series. Bruce Seven worked with some genuine lesbians who were experienced in their art. They proved that there does not have to be a substitute man in a sex scene for it to be beautiful - and, on top of all that, informative. Women were getting off in ways that guys don't make them get off, and that still fascinates me.

Three women around this time brought a comprehension of lovemaking to other women on camera that surpassed anything we'd seen. And in so doing, I truly believe they helped establish lesbian sex as true, healthy sex - not a demonstration of some "alternative lifestyle," but beautiful people going at it and having orgasms. By pure coincidence, all three have singular names:

Felecia - (seen here in Buttslammers 3 legitimately viewable on Adult DVD Empire), clearly trained as a dancer with long, athletic legs, firm pointy nipples, and an elegant pussy. When something is inserted in her, she uses it quite uniquely, in a way I don't think it's possible to use a penis (while it's still connected to the guy). She expresses something in her orgasms that has nothing to do with wanting a man, and strangely for that reason, I find her captivating to watch.

Tianna - (seen here in Buttwoman's Favorite Endings getting it from no less than the great Shanna McCullough, viewable on Adult DVD Empire), she premiered in straight sex but made her name as a purely feminine aggressive lovemaker in Bruce Seven films. Always had a little thing for short blonde hair.

Belladonna - (seen here in Belladonna's Perversions 2, viewable on HotMovies.com), she set out to prove that you don't need a man in a sex scene. For most of the '90s and into the early 2000s, there were way too many performing males whom I would give what money I never had to replace with Belladonna, not because she would make a better man but because as a woman, she's better at making love to women. (Avy Scott is in this movie also, and there's a lot she might have learned from Belladonna that she carried into her later GG pairings.)

Now, there are some fabulous straight women performers who are brilliant in their lesbian outings. Like I said, there's Avy, who did a number with my favorite Polynesian woman Loni for the old 4-Finger Club site, though you can find it on Johnni Darko's Girl Crazy #1. Krissy Lynn did some of her best work for Kink.com's Everything Butt, and I think it might have been fraud to have named the site "Everything Butt" without including Krissy Lynn, with one of history's greatest performing asses. No one is better with a butt plug than Krissy Lynn. And anything with Lena Paul because, well, Jeez-us, that body of hers. Self-explanatory.

But these three women I listed certainly contributed to my understanding of sex, particularly the use of the tongue (for which Felicia is the undisputed world master). Now, you'll notice in all of these screenshots, these girls aren't locked into a tight embrace. One is giving hard penetration to the other, who cums once if not three or four times, then they trade places. This is fine. You'll see the girls orgasming several times, and it's here where you learn that, unlike for many men, the orgasm is not "getting off." A woman in the throes of passion can cum and cum again, and that's often many more times than the zero orgasms you see from the girl in a typical MF pairing, especially in the cheaper productions from the late '90s and early 2000s. When mid-2000s Web-based gonzo straight porn scenes started taking over the spotlight, one big reason I believe is was because the male artists resumed using their penises properly, as tools to be used by the girl to get off rather than a plug looking for a socket.

So to answer your question (finally!). . . A girl/girl scene is greater than a girl/boy scene when it reveals the girls' orgasms in a way the girl/boy scene missed. I'm into porn for the women, and if the guys aren't in the scene to help them out, then get them off the set, please.

RFB3

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Edited by - af369 on 6/25/2024 1:01:13 PM

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I think the folks at IAFD came to that realization a few years back when they stopped classifying scenes with the "IR" tag. That was a bold move, but a good move.

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So it's only natural that the porn production industry depicts certain barriers being broken and taboos being shattered. It's why the whole "stepsister"/"stepmom"/"insert family member here" genre is as popular as it is. It erects a kind of straw-man barrier, then kicks it down with every scene.

I grew up in the South US, at a time when interracial relationships were called out as sins against God. (And now they are again, I hate to say.) So I can identify with the idea that interracial sex scenes break a barrier, and I can identify with folks who watch interracial sex (guilty as charged here), see the joy in it, and get a bit of a thrill in watching this barrier get kicked to the curb. (Again and again.) One of my favorite HardX scenes involves the very beautifully white Krissy Lynn and the very awesomely Black Jax Slayer. I'd be lying if I said their oscillating, sweaty mixture didn't add to my thrill. Jax is a fantastic performer, and every time he makes love to a woman, I see it bring out something in her I never see in scenes with any other partner, or even solo. And Krissy is what the creator had in mind when designing the human female ass. Her body is holy and should be worshipped. Together they are nuclear.

Race is a barrier we should eliminate, and we should be joyful and celebrate when it happens. Abuse is a barrier that needs to remain standing, in my view. Nothing turns me off more than seeing any party in a sexual act even act like the pain hurts their psyche.

That said, a lot of the material that gets categorized as "BDSM" or "taboo-breaking" isn't really all that abusive, or even that bad. I think producers add the "BDSM" category to material that features only the bare minimum of domination or role-play, and folks get off on the feeling they're breaking a rule when they're really not. I avoided Kink.com for years thinking performers there were pretending to be raped. Then I discovered someone with a scene from EverythingButt.com, learned that was a Kink.com site, and thought, what the flipping heck? My butt fetish is a matter of record here. I'm not breaking any law or moral code or taboo by appreciating three or four or twelve women's asses in the throes of ecstasy. And Krissy's contributions there should be enshrined.

So I understand the labels, but I usually ignore them. In and of themselves, they're not a major problem with porn. It's when pain is peddled for our pleasure that I always tune out.

RFB3

Edited by - RickFBerger3 on 7/2/2024 12:03:24 PM

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The reason I went on this long rant is because many people have a misconception about BDSM as if it's some sort of abusive rapey misogynistic practice, but the truth is that it is anything but abusive, rapey or misogynistic. It is always the submissive who is in control in a BDSM scenario, & consent is the most sacred tenet of BDSM.

Edited by - Miss Munchausen on 7/2/2024 2:43:41 PM

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dude, you would LOVE reddit.

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My two main points are that maybe the BD should be separate from SM. While there's certainly an overlap between the two, there's a whole different psycho-sexual dynamic between Bondage & Discipline as kinky
fun & games, and Sadism and Masochism. The difference between Mistress Harwood's Finishing School and Lady Macbeth's Dungeon, or something like that. If people are into being verbally and physically abused
in the most humiliating & degrading ways Law Enforcement will allow, than have at it. I'd just like the doors to those rooms not to be opened up wide for all to see, aka pop up & banner ads. And however "kinky"
one finds inter-racial relationships, they should not be seen as being on a par with Headmistress & Teacher's Pet, let alone Lady Cruella's Dungeon of Doom.

Thanks for the insights and all the best!

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Then I'd look at the comments and there'd would be dumb comments like "they only said mommy 3 times" or something else really stupid related to whatever kink trend. Turned me off all of that mess.

Today's porn needs more sex in it. The balance between sex and cartoon/meme shit is waaay skewed.

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i have beyond utter contempt for white males that get off to it.

Edited by - Green_Ghost on 7/3/2024 12:02:53 AM

Edited by - Green_Ghost on 7/3/2024 12:03:28 AM

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Edited by - Miss Munchausen on 7/4/2024 6:32:23 AM

Edited by - Miss Munchausen on 7/4/2024 6:34:19 AM

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Porn is a great liberator. Where porn does its best work is when it replaces hatred with fucking. And you know something, I absolutely love fucking better. Call me old-fashioned (or just call me old), but I prefer orgasms to riots.

So I think where our discussion here has headed, has to do with barriers, safeguards, and labels. They're quite different, and I think we all (myself included) may be confusing one for the other. Porn is not completely without barriers. Even here in this forum, we maintain the legal restriction that stipulates people under 18 are minors and should not be photographed having sex. That's a barrier I support, and you won't be seeing me take a pick-axe to that barrier like I would the Berlin Wall. There are good barriers for good reasons.

What LezBoyRDee69 is advocating for here, is a kind of safeguard. He doesn't want to be browsing a porn site, or any other site, and be shown an ad for bondage porn. Now, we can come up with any number of seemingly reasonable ways to accommodate that request. We've all seen the checklists in a website's settings letting you uncheck the categories you don't want to see.

But then we get into labels, and here's where things get tied into knots. On one of these checklists, we'll get shown a lot of labels, and one of them will inevitably be "BDSM." What exactly is that? I'll confess here to Miss Munchausen: No, I don't know much about the BDSM lifestyle. Here I am playing like I'm Mr. Freedom, and I'm not really qualified to say what BDSM is. But I do know how the label has been used throughout porn history. Back in the '80s, certain VHS would be shoved into a corner for the miscellaneous fetishes. If a tape had a girl on all-fours, or someone whose wrists were tied (however loosely) to a bedpost, or any scene that took place in a basement, it got labeled "BDSM." That was the label. Whether it meant BDSM to Miss Munchausen would not have mattered.

What else got shoved into the corner? In the southern US, you'd find the "Oriental" tapes. That's where you'd find a series like "Me Luv U Long Time" or "Suckee Fuckee," where Asian women were humiliated for being Asian. A scene would open and, naturally, the girl's working in a laundry because, of course, she's "Oriental." And the guys poke at her with chop sticks. Humiliation. The stuff that turns me off, and that porn should not be about. Yes, porn made us a freer society, but did that really mean we should be more free to humiliate people?

What other labels would you find shoved into the corner? "Black" was one. The tapes where there were no white people, so obviously that must be miscellaneous. "Fat" was another one. Again, usually an opportunity to shame the women. "Young" was there too, where the girls were of questionable age, and were probably being shamed as well. And yes, folks, there were the all-male tapes. And in one store in Missouri along I-44, the label for that one was an ugly three-letter word I shall not repeat here.

We think labels may be the least harmful things, until you see how effectively they're used.

So, back to the website that's gives us labels we can check and uncheck for our personal preferences. Which labels would help us maintain our personal safeguards? And which others simply aid us to reinforce our stereotypes, misunderstandings, and social barriers? LezBoyRDee69 doesn't want to see bondage. I don't want to see humiliation. "Bondage" has the greater likelihood of being a label or a tag. But if RDee gets to exclude bondage, shouldn't I get to exclude scenes where people are shamed?

If the preferences checklist ends up being unworkable, then we have Miss Munchausen's suggestion: Let it go and just ignore what we don't want to see. Don't click on the ad if it upsets you. Maybe that's the fairer way to go in the long run. But suppose there's a site that, by accident or design, enables an ad showing someone hung on a meat hook bleeding out. Do I just ignore that because hanging people on meat hooks isn't my lifestyle?

Then there's the opposite end of the scale. Suppose there were a system that used AI to suppress everything I would ever possibly want to suppress and never have to see. I'm not into guy-guy porn. It does not offend me, it simply doesn't turn me on as a straight man who's into porn for the women. I won't be purchasing any. If I saw an ad for a gay porn video, I would not be offended. If I saw an ad for a meat-hook scene, I would be. But the Suppression Machine doesn't care why I don't want to see it, it lets me be exclusionary for any reason I want. It doesn't give me a list of labels, it has No Labels whatsoever. It just acts on the prompt I give it. And the site does all the ignoring for me.

Would this be a good thing? If I had the freedom to have anything I wanted to ignore, be ignored for me, what would I do with that freedom? For a clue as to how dangerous this might be, substitute "porn" for "news" in the above scenario.

My lack of understanding about the lifestyle Miss Munchausen supports is mostly due to the fact that I enabled a label to serve as my safeguard, which then became for me a barrier. We could just break down all barriers and declare ourselves a purely libertarian society. But then the age restriction would go away.

This is not an easy problem to solve, is it? But it is something we should discuss.

RFB3

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I have very little idea about what goes on in the USA other than what I see on the news & read in newspapers. From this little exposure I've had some understanding of how deeply racist, regressive & conservative many Americans are. Having said that, American porn is the best quality porn I've ever seen, especially in regards to the BDSM content (Kink.com being the prime example).

Now RickFBerger3, when you sir refer to porn from the 80s, I simply have no way of knowing of its existence. But the acts that you refer to- tying someone to bedposts, scenes set in dungeons, etc, these are literally BDSM scenarios. Why would I have a problem with BDSM activities being listed under BDSM?

The issues you raise regarding AI are of course thought provoking. I believe AI is still in its infancy & we are yet to understand what AI is truly capable of.

Edited by - Miss Munchausen on 7/4/2024 3:02:21 PM

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If people want to watch a hardcore porn version of D.W. Griffith's Birth of a Nation, or Hot Babes of Abu Ghraib, then check with the boys up in Legal, and go ahead. Just don't slap the promos on my screen and tell me to ignore if I don't like it. If my replies bother you, then please follow your own advice and just ignore and don't say anything. And no, Alex Jones scamming his limp-dick followers is not on a par with gonzo, no holes barred, XXX-Treme Fetish BDSM.

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To answer your question: What got categorized under "BDSM" back in those converted filling stations of the '80s and '90s was all over the map. Some scenes would include a rope or two, usually pink, that got discarded. If someone had a riding crop, it would get used in a slap or two then be tossed aside. Maybe there would be yellow plastic handcuffs. My thought was, you might not actually consider the use of these props rising to the level of "BDSM scenarios" but do correct me if I'm wrong.

Then right next to these VHS would be one or two meat-hook variety videos. And maybe you'd think the violence level is beyond what you'd qualify as a "BDSM scenario," but please do correct me again. You would understand this way more than I would, and I'd benefit from your experience.

My point in bringing all that up, was to illustrate that here we are (or were) partaking in an art form that's about breaking barriers, and first opportunity we get (or got), we built new ones. The "Oriental" section, the "pink handcuffs and/or meat hooks" section, the "races other than snow white" section, the "you must be queer to enjoy watching this" section. As a young man (I can hardly believe it myself, but I was young once), if I had owned a porn store, I would have wanted to rip off all the labels and categorize everything alphabetically by title, like the Features section of an old Blockbuster Video. But then I wouldn't have had a store, because some white trucker would raise a ruckus about my filing a tape with a "yeller girl" (you can guess what that means) right next to a "normal" tape, offending his sensibilities, and he'd use his truck to re-create a scene from Terminator and I'd be history.

And yet I want a safeguard or two. I'm not innocent here. One of the "problems with today's porn" is a problem with us, to some extent. For convenience, for the sake of a better consumer experience, we'd like everything to fit our tastes. But of course, we could say the same thing about the entire world we live in. Even in any progressive democracy in the world, people tend to segregate themselves given the opportunity. And I would have hoped porn would do its part in discouraging that.

RFB3

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The meathooks stuff you mention is very intriguing to me. I'm aware of people who use meathooks & other such extreme implements in their BDSM sessions, but I have never seen them either in my personal life or in porn. But you are talking about the 80s & 90s, while I'm only familiar with BDSM sites which started in the late 90s at the earliest- Insex & Cybernet(Kink.com). Since I'm not a historian of BDSM porn companies I have no idea which companies might have been around in the 80s & 90s producing these meathook tapes. The only BDSM content I'm aware of from that period are the Bruce Seven Buttslammer line & Kym Wilde's On The Edge line & other movies she did for Red Board Video. I don't believe meathooks were depicted in any of these films. I'm sure there were many other BDSM movies in this time period but I'm ignorant about them.

Maybe meathooks were a popular trend for BDSM movies in the 80s & 90s, which would explain why you were seeing those tapes in such frequency back then, but that is not the case in contemporary times. As I said I'm yet to come across any movie with such extreme acts like someone bleeding out on a meathook in the BDSM sites making content over the last 20 years. The worst I've seen was a girl being put in a tub with live leeches on an early 2000s Insex video.

Regarding your view on labels & categories I do believe that's a necessity given how complex our sexual needs & desires can be, & the efficient way to fulfilling those needs when watching porn is through labelling & categorisation. I don't want to spend 3 hours watching lame softcore stuff in the hopes of watching a gonzo gangbang. However using derogatory racial slurs & stereotypes in the name of categorisation is not the way forward.

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I think our moderators would agree I've beaten this topic pretty much to death (which shouldn't be what we're beating around here), but I think we can agree that we do need categorization and tagging to help us all in the selection process. If we're all doing the selection individually, rather than reinforcing stereotypes for others, perhaps that removes some of the danger. But it's sad that someone could use such a system to exclude people for who they are.

On the other hand... You and I share a disdain for anything that could be classified as "lame softcore." To some extent, our tastes in porn reveal a lot about our lives and lifestyles, so actually preferring softcore doesn't make sense to me. It's like actually wanting to hear elevator music, for any reason other than cultural curiosity or sociological study. But if I take this too far, I could be insulting someone who has a damn good reason for preferring what they prefer. And for that reason, I need to check my personal tastes at the gate.

The point here being, for purposes of this thread, and for everyone who's contributed to it including myself, somebody, somewhere, likes what you don't. And if we are to live in a pluralistic society, then we have to not just acknowledge that but enable that.

RFB3

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Edited by - ISD88 on 9/17/2024 6:16:01 PM

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1: I've read more than a few interviews of female talent that went from doing both B/G and G/G to just G/G. Contrary to popular belief, it's not always about having a serious boyfriend or a spouse suddenly unhappy with it. The frequent issue I read is the toll that it came to take on their bodies which makes me think that possibly one of the issues with B/G porn is the physicality of B/G scenes over G/G ones because you never heard the same complaint from those that are G/G only.

2: I feel like Mick Blue should hold a seminar for all male talent on how to make a first time anal scene have a happy ending every time. At least two performers I know of both had horrific experiences with anal sex on set due to a male performer who didn't know how to make it pleasurable instead of painful. If you can teach that, you would have far more female talent willing to go that route.

3: Seen way too many B/G scenes where the guy gets a blowjob but somehow it is never reciprocated on the girl, unless you are one of those rare people who hates someone going down on you while on camera - there's no reason why oral should be mandatory for her to give him but not vice versa. Irritates the heck out of me every time I see it.

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Personally, I have zero interest in any kind of oral. The less time wasted on it in a scene, the better IMO.

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Anal Sex Is My Thing :)

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If you want a blueprint for what a driven, gifted, passionate versatile performer looks like: Casey Calvert, Sinn Sage, Cherie DeVille, Julia Ann, Nina Hartley, Joanna Angel, Kenna James, Dana Vespoli. All of them have proven that there's pretty much nothing in the industry that they can't do and make it look awesome and they love doing it to the point where they won't stop until they all but can't do anymore. Same with Anissa Kate and Valentina Nappi.

Edited by - Whyspers2Scorpio on 12/29/2024 2:52:17 AM

Edited by - Whyspers2Scorpio on 3/6/2025 1:30:07 AM

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That being said: I hate how fake porn is today, especially male orgasms. I don't know if it's a truely growing issue or if it just seems like it. Tons of scene cuts, fake cum, fake orgasms (sometimes from the men too). I love scenes like Manuel's Raw series, where it's just him, a woman, and a high quality camera. The camera work isn't the best but the 30-60 minute scenes are almost entirely unbroken and just him switching back from third person to POV. I want to know that the scene I'm watching is very close to the experience the actors are having. Too much camera work or editing breaks the immersion for me. I've seen scenes where you can literally watch a guy inject some fake cum into his urethra from a oral medicine syringe in the background before getting back into the main display of the scene for the "cum" shot. It's almost just as bad when the guy is fucking the girl and talking about pulling out and cumming on her face orgiving her a cream pie, then there is a camera cutoff, and the guy is all of a sudden jerking it and cumming. If you can't achieve a real orgasm with real cum from intensely penetrating a beautiful woman, gtfo of porn. Makes me wonder if the guys are even slightly enjoying themselves.

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Why is G/G porn hotter than B/G? Usually B/G porn has often been more mechanical than G/G porn: it's about the standard positions, the cum covered face, the gaping asshole, there's also the fact that it's less about the pleasure of the woman and I know because I've seen a number of scenes where the woman is going through the motions to make it look good rather than actually being aroused enough to have a full body mindblowing orgasm. That's why a number of female talents have almost signature behavior to signify them reaching climax. Allison Chaynes and Kenna James are both known for having their eyes role back in their head in bliss, Chanel Camryn is rightfully known as the Quiver Queen for her full body shiver when she explodes. It's very difficult especially in the past two and half decades, to fake chemistry in a G/G scene like you can in B/G. As long as you appear to flop around or come up with a convincing O face, no-one is going to question whether you came or not. G/G scenes - especially those under the GFF and SHV a little over 20 years ago, leave little to no doubt whether the girls are in the moment or just going through the motions. I've seen both and the latter sticks out like a sore thumb. I would also add that G/G porn is often far more psychological that B/G with the understanding that the mind is the biggest sex organ habitually overlooked. That was what led to the original ascent of GFF; mastering the psychology of eroticism and giving me scenes that left me exhausted after blowing multiple loads before the scene is even halfway near the end.

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I never thought I would be the one to say this but ONE problem with today's porn that really shouldn't still be one is terrible editing; I was watching a scene that was literally cookie cutter editing that completely wrecked the potential of the talent involved to make it a real scorcher. They cut away to the 'partner' of one of the girls taking a phonecall which was stupid and they also made nonsensical cuts around the foreplay. Like what's the point??

The best G/G scenes rarely involve constantly lapping, Zoe Britton and Kristina Rose come to mind because when they got down and dirty, Kristina literally puts her entire mouth over Zoe's pussy - making her explode. That's eventually what I see more of, either that or the fantastic use of the tongue as a dick, jamming inside a tight pussy. Today's G/G is far more believable and enjoyable than the older stuff I want to say pre 2000.

Edited by - Whyspers2Scorpio on 2/4/2025 12:56:12 AM

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