Or something like that

Kelly

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The first scene has a "just turned 18 last week" Jewel de Nyle being fictitiously raped by Michael Stefano. He portrays a serial killer in the movie. I loved a moment in the scene when she is starting to get into the sex & you can hear Lizzy Borden behind the camera reminding her that her character is supposed to be getting raped and tells her to stay in character. She then lets out a fake "No!" and "Help!". It's funny but interesting to watch. The second scene features Taylor St. Clair and is the only scene where the female puts up a struggle and fights back. The third scene features Stefano, Brian Surewood & Barett Moore and is the climax of the movie. She is kidnapped, raped graphically and violently, fictitiously murdered. The fourth scene consists of some rough blow job action with Alexandria Quinn. It seemed a little out of place in the movie. If it makes you feel better, there is swift revenge for Stefano in the end.

Overall, the movie is incredibly violent with intentional bad acting and terrific editing. If you like watching rough sex & want to see something different from the typical gonzo stuff available, I would recommend it. Obviously, I am in the minority of viewers who found this movie both entertaining and a sexual turn on.

Lori

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If I were a rapist looking for tips I would rent this movie.

Okay. I realize that is a bit of a stretch on my part but I don't know how much any of you actually know about this film. When it was being filmed Gene Ross was posting interviews with Lizzy Borden and Luciano where they talked about it. In one of the interviews Luciano referred to the Nightstrangler as his hero and that he wanted this film to pay homage to that greatest of men. He then quickly added that the didn't want anyone going out and emulating Ramirez though. And Borden even had some ill-fated plan to try to show the film to Ramirez.

The unfair argument is that films today often glorify violence and objectify women. Well, this film does that quite literally. It was made to pay homage to a fucking serial killer. As such, it might actually be a strong fake-rape tape and people who like that kind of thing might like it. However, having followed this one fromt he beginning and knowing what it represents to the adult film industry I hate it. It is quite honestly the only film that has ever generated that kind of response from me....ever. The sad thing is that I imagine that Rob Black and Lizzy Borden would be proud of that.

Kelly

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cry more.

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You're free to disagree with anyone on this site. You're not free to mock them. If you can't treat someone with respect then just don't treat with them at all.

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You guys want to discuss Forced Entry, that's cool.

You want to debate the philisophical issues surrounding rough sex and fake rape in porn, that's fine too.

If you have nothing more to contribute to the thread than inflamatory one-liners, your posts will be deleted, and/or this thread will be closed. Consider yourselves warned. This is a discussion of ideas--not an attack on individuals. Let's keep it that way.

Mike L.

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This having said I do still share some of your feelings, TSC. I remember how I always had to <FF> the last part of evey sex scene on my old <The Tower>-VHS, because Woodman choose to have his starlets killed by their alleged rapists at the end of each scene. Watching how they clearly enjoyed the fuck, but than end up in blood kind of troubled me. (I have read somewhere that the murder is cut out in todays <Tower>-dvd editions)
For me fake forced sex and fake-murder is not a good mixture. But that's just me.

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StupidAss-Yeah. I've got nothing to say to you and apparently you have nothing to say either.

Edited by - tscfan317 on 4/1/2004 5:31:34 PM

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I also disagree that Extreme has harmed the adult industry with its material. As seen in many of the recent Platinum X, New Sensations, Evil Angel, Red Light and Elegant Angel releases, the sex is certainly no less tame than before the law suit was brought against Extreme. In fact, I think the opposite could be said. I actually feel that it's, in a small part, because of Extreme's early vision that there's so much great material out there now -from soft to the most hardcore. In turn, that can also partially explain not only the large number of women watching adult material but also the huge increase in sales for the industry in the last five years. There's something available for almost everyone.

I can understand that the basic context in which Extreme presents its rough sex material could be a turn off and even offensive to many (or most) viewers. You have barely legal, zombies, insane doctors, rapists, the Mafia and an array of other weird stories. It's those viewers that should avoid the Extreme product and view the material that they enjoy watching. It's a great thing to have the freedom to choose without persecution or mockery.

Lori

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OPRLVR-I understand what you are saying but I think I might have been slightly misunderstand on one particular point. I was not trying to say that people were shocked by "Forced Entry" or anything like that. It is a very simple mantra of "if you don't like it don't watch it." That is our free choice just as it is their free choice to make the film. What i am worried about is that right now the wrong people (i.e. John Ashcroft) are watching it.

As I tried to indicate earlier, if this were just another random "fake-rape" movie then I wouldn't have commented on this thread because my negative opinion would bring nothing to the discussion. However, with "Forced Entry" I am talking about the potential legal issues that you better believe will eventually effect the whole entire industry one way or another. In a new review, Den at www.cavr.com comments on this. He reviews "Gag Factor #13" from JM Productions which features an extra bit on the dvd where a girl gets so outraged during the scene that she walks off the set and refuses to sign the model release at which point Jim Powers just laughs into the camera. Den was of the opinion that he is afraid that Extreme is going to go to court and get off which will open the door for the industry to go even further. Would that be a good thing?

Returning back to the reply, perhaps I was too vague in my previous posts. When I was talking about Extreme being bad for the biz I was specifically referring to the specific 5 titles at the middle of the obscenity trial. "Forced Entry" happens to be one of those titles, as is "Cocktails 2," "Ass Clowns 2", and a couple of other ones. When you talk about Extreme as a whole then yeah I do agree with you. The work that Tom Byron, Van Damage, early Luciano did was unbelievable stuff. Byron's Extreme film "Whack Attack #9" is still the best gonzo tape I have ever seen. I would say that you might be giving Extreme too much credit though on their influence on the industry. Simply put, Extreme Associates truly was great until Tom Zupko and Lizzy Borden starting pushing the line for the mere and simple purpose of pushing the line and Rob Black let his misoginist tendencies run wild (the bts stuff at Extreme is pretty sickening, the way Black would talk about girls behind their backs) and the XPW became the center of attention and not the actual product of pornography.

Kelly

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Though I personally dont like to watch sex and murder combined, I do think it is about time porn producers are allowed to stage all fantasies with out fear of obscenity trials. Why should porn film producers have less freedom than other film producers?

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Zander69-We simply disagree. However, I do understand what you are saying. I think Den was acknowledging the possibility that if Extreme does get off in court that it will open the floodgates for anyone to do whatever they want. Idealistically, that is great. But looking at some of the type of stuff that goes on now, like in the "Gag Factor 13" dvd, I would be afraid to see what people like JIm Powers would do without any fear of censorship. I don't want to necessarily advocate censorship because as much as I hate "Forced Entry" I do think that anyone should be allowed to watch it if they want to. However, if that fear of censorship is taken away then it is highly possible that many people will get carried away and go too far. What would they have to stop them?

However, I will acknowledge that I am probably just being a bit of an extremist or at least an alarmist.

Kelly

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DonMarco, the bad review that you read about Forced Entry, was it a review from France, or the US? Is it posted on the Internet? Even if it is in French, let us know anyway.
Was this the first time you heard of this film?

oprlvr, You sound like a responsible person, who was familiar with the background on this film, and who would be able to see this just as "entertainment" and leave it at that. But, what about a person like the following poster, who made this post here back in August (on a thread about if porn is a real job or not):

I have a weird obsession with pornography. I also collect books and artifacts of serial killers and recenty visited the areas in Virgina, Maryland, and DC where the Beltway Sniper ended people's lives. People need to be reminded they and their jobs are in fact insignificant. In fact I think society could function without any jobs whatsoever. I just find it interesting that people would allow themselves to be degraded for a month's rent. Yet pornography is like a car wreck. Although I don't want to look and feel bad I still have to look. I still feel a need to see what someone is willing to do. Very rarely do I actually jerk off to porn its not completely sexual to me. My dad was a military and police psychologist and he's always tell me stories about human behavior and why people felt the need to end another's life. It was always about the same thing power, similar to pornography. Men love to play god. Men love to believe they are the Alpha and Omega. If you can pay a women to surrender her body to you and make her do double anal, bukkake, and whatever else it make the man feel superior. Before government and laws rape was commonplace in society. In fact thousands of black slaves were raped by their masters and when they got pregnant the offspring were destroyed. If we had no law and government to you honestly believe this trend would end? So do I believe porn is a real job? Well, if you want to believe it is I won't argue with you.

This is the sort of person that gives me cause for concern, a person who is fascinated with serial killers and has an obsession with porn. What happens when an individual like this comes across a film like Forced Entry, that so effortlessly combines the two? It's naive to think that someone like this isn't going to be affected to some degree - and not in a pleasant way - by an edgy film like this.

That's fine at the time that Luciano (Michael Stefano?) said to Gene Ross that he didn't want people to emulate the action in the movie, but how to make certain that this never happens? Does anyone know if the movie, in the credits or elsewhere, makes it plain that this is for entertainment only, that it not meant for any other "purpose", that even though it mentions Richard Ramirez several times, it in no way condones what he did? Or was this sort of disclaimer/warning left out?

I have seen other recent porno films that do have disclaimers (and these aren't rough sex films, either) that the film is for entertainment only, that all acts were consensual. And in the closing credits to PXP's I Love it Rough 1, there is the statement about everything being consensual, and that No means No.

Getting back to the poster above who I quoted, he's also posted at least one other time that I know of, asking for recommendations for good rape films. Is this any surprise?

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I did see a french movie like 16 years ago and it had a scene of a priest raping a nun and that scene looked like a pretty real rape scene, the way he was holding her down and the way she was screaming and begging.

Not my thing though.

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I have seen a few such scenes in the very early Private Video installments. One I specially remember features an asian girl being fake-raped by some burglers. Soon she really enjoys that treatment.

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I apologize if I sounded as if I was giving Extreme Associates too much credit in the industry. It's not even one of my favorite companies though I have liked several of their films in the EXTREME TEEN series and, of course, FORCED ENTRY. My point was that I have read archived articles about Rob Black & Extreme when the company first started. It was such a new & different concept for American pornography then and, in my opinion, that is the legacy of Extreme. In that sense, I think a lot of the harder material released now is (in part) because of their early vision. One thing leads to the next and, with more choices, you have a wider audience and higher profits, etc. It isn't because of Extreme. I was just pointing out that, after their company started, other companies followed suit with similar material that was produced with less "push the limit" story lines. I suppose my liberal tendency of admiring things that are different and people with the balls to produce it often, in my mind, out ways the obvious fact that a conservative administration could take something like FORCED ENTRY and turn it against the industry as a whole. That is a valid point. I'm usually so busy enjoying the adult entertainment that I watch, I don't take such things into consideration.

I think everyone takes different experiences and preferences away from pornography, like most things in life. Both performers and the audience. I've been watching it for a while and it has been more a positive influence in my life because I'm more open with my sexuality. I'm not hiding my DVD collection in the trunk of my car or sneaking around to watch it. Basically, it's not something that I'm ashamed of or don't want to watch but do anyway. I don't have those uncontrollable tendencies. If I didn't want to watch pornography or felt it was affecting my life negatively, I would tune out. One interesting thing that I have found in my viewing habits & tastes. When I first started watching, a simple slap on the behind or pull of the hair would turn me on beyond belief. I started watching things that push the limit more like FORCED ENTRY, material by Mason & Rocco Siffredi and, suddenly, the more tame stuff seemed less appealing to me. Then I started watching the stuff directed by Erik Everhard and found a nice mix with rough sex in an amateur setting without plot. Since viewing his stuff I find myself more turned on by a larger variety of material, from well shot stuff by Vivid to the I LOVE IT ROUGH series. I nearly always masturbate when I watch pornography unless I'm checking out a director's commentary for fun or something like that.

Lori

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First off, I mentioned before that I have been involved in many arguments about "Forced Entry" before. With the exception of "Stupid Ass", this has been the most intelligent and respectful one I have been involved with so far. So thanks to everyone on that.

OPRLVR-
I understand what you meant about Extreme now and I would agree. I guess perhaps the phrase you were searching for with them was at one point Extreme "was ahead of its time." I tend to forget that in relation to them due to my immense ill-will in regard to their slow demise.

Kelly

Edited by - tscfan317 on 4/1/2004 5:33:17 PM

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In my post above, I did not mean to imply that no one should be able to watch "Forced Entry" due to the potential affect it might have on a very few individuals, who may already be predisposed to violent or unpredictable behavior.

What I did mean to state is that Extreme does have some responsibility in saying up front that their movie is meant as entertainment only, not anything else. So, anyone who has seen it, what sort of legal disclaimer is there in the movie, and if there is one, is it in the beginning, or in the end of the movie, after the credits?

I ask this because I've seen regular gonzo films that have disclaimers (for legal reasons, I presume) that these are only for private entertainment, that the characters portrayed are completely fictional, that any resemblance to real-life people is coincidental, and that all the actors were professionals engaging in consensual behavior. Some films run this both before and after the movie, where you see the statement that all actors were 18 or older.

I suppose Extreme would have problems saying that everything was fictional in their movie, because they do make repeated references to Richard Ramirez and his crimes, and do show a photo of him over the "murdered" body of one of the actresses.

In case it's not clear, I don't mean to say that movies like Forced Entry should never be made. However, I wouldn't mind if the makers of such films had a little introspection about their work, rather than just putting out something to "shock" people, or to see how far they can push the limits, just for the sake of pushing them, particularly when the content of the film is violent, and is not completely fictional.

One other aside, I would have thought that the number of porn fans who have problems controlling their behavior are few and far between. But just in the few months that I've been reading this board, I've watched at least three individuals get their accounts deactivated, because they could not make a civil post, or discuss a movie/actress respectfully with others, even after repeated warnings. And one of these individuals was constantly asking about Max Hardcore, Khan Tusion and the like. It's someone like that, that might watch an ultra-violent porn film that also contains murder scenes, that frankly bothers me.

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Taylor has a point... she can't second guess everything she does. She no doubt had her reasons for doing Forced Entry and they may or may not have coincided with Rob Black's and Lizzy Borden's reason for producing it.

It's not the extreme nature of the sex... it's not the violence of the content. It's the way it's presented as non-consensual that really is the kicker to me. I haven't watched Forced Entry. I have no interest in watching it. If it was made for some reason beyond shock value... more power too them. But if it was made for the exclusive purpose of out-doing the other guy, and making a quick buck by giving everyone a JOLT of what they can't get somewhere else--I do have a big problem with that. And perhaps I give the audience too much credit for being able to tell the difference.

As has been said... it's a terribly complicated issue. And this is marginally related to an editorial I wrote several months ago if anyone would like to read it:

My "Journey of Rediscovery"

Which is still very relevant to me. I admit... I have a very idealistic viewpoint... but when it comes down to it, it's the only way I can be honest with myself without being hypocritical. Perhaps I AM being hypocritical--or asking for my cake so I can eat it too, but to hell with it. There simply aren't simple answers.

I'd also like to thank everyone for this multi-faceted and intelligent discussion.

Mike L.

Edited by - MLyons on 1/15/2004 6:54:40 PM

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Also, at the end of the movie, actors appear on camera and reiterate that no one was forced to do it, and that no one was harmed physically or emotionally by participating in it. There are also several out-takes showing the process of filming, clearly illustrating that not only were the actors willing, everyone had a good time making it.

As for the possiblitity of inciting people to imitate the violent actions in this movie, that is such an old cop-out bullshit excuse for artistic repression, commonly used by Feminazis ala Andrea Dworkin, and other anti-porn chowderheads. If people are predisposed to violence, sexual or otherwise, banning materials that they claim incites them won't insure that they won't commit these acts. They are the problem, they refuse to accept accountability for their actions and lay blame on some form of media as an excuse, and the forces of creative repression eat it right up.

Rapists, killers and other such scum shouldn't have the opportunity to justify their acts by pointing towards movies or anything else. This is the same crap that people spouted about Clockwork Orange, as if hooliganism didn't exist before it was released. Same thing with Natural Born Killers. The Mansons, the Starkweathers, the Bonnie and Clydes all did their nefarious deeds well before this movie was ever concieved.

The difference here is that Stanley Kubrick and Oliver Stone never faced 50 years in prison for making these movies. Rob and Lizzy do. No matter what you may think of them personally, or what they produce, anyone with a brain should see what an incredible injustice this is and be outraged by it.

I know I am.

Edited by - Tom Byron on 1/15/2004 6:58:19 PM

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"In my view Extreme should have every legal right to make Forced Entry, but along with that right comes some responsibility for what they are doing, and the effect it might have--even if it is only to say--"Hey, this is FANTASY you crazy perverts!" And even then... I'm certainly divided over whether that's enough."

Responsibility in the media. It's a big issue. Again, I agree with you. Essentially, Extreme has the right to make this and I love that but I would have just rather they not made it. The two feelings are in conflict.

Kelly

Edited by - tscfan317 on 4/1/2004 5:35:25 PM

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