Hi. My name's David Spenser, and I edit two adult magazines here in the UK: Mayfair and MensWorld. I've been in the industry for (my God) 17 years now, and have covered the US porn scene for almost as long.
I have a question about the direction the US industry is taking, and I hope you'll give me an honest answer. In the UK, adult video is split between cheap gonzo, expensive plotless porn and pseudo feature. In amongst that, there are obviously sub-genres, but nothing to match the scale of your market.
What we don't really have here, at least not in massive quantities, is some of the stuff I've been seeing lately, namely extremely rough hardcore.
There seems to be a shift in the industry, whereby the big companies make the pretty-pretty features, and a number of others are trying to seriously push the envelope in terms of what's legal and, to my mind, acceptable.
I'm talking about scenes where the camera seems more interested in capturing the look of fear on a performer's face as she chokes on some guy's cock, rather than any sort of shared submissive/Dom experience. And then there are flicks like JM's "Swirlies". Now, I haven't seen the movie yet, but flushing a girl's head down the john on the box cover?
Doesn't anyone just fuck anymore?
So my questions are:
Am I alone in wondering whether the market is going out on a limb at a time when your Attorney General has his beady little eye on us?
Didn't anyone learn any lessons from the vom and choke movies of a few years go?
Is it really acceptable to treat female performers that roughly and not expect criticism from federal agencies?
Only a few months ago, everyone was running around like headless chickens over 2257, but some of the product I've been watching lately has left me wondering whether that's the least of our worries.
Yes, there's definitely a place for submissive girls being dominated in adult, but personally I think some people are taking things too far in an attempt to set benchmarks.
I'd appreciate honest opinions, because this might form the basis of a feature in one of the magazines.
I couldn't agree more David! I'm not in the business myself but as a sad "techie" :) I have had access to lots and lots of porn for the last ten years. European satellite channels and pretty much everything on the Net. The "rough stuff" was a fetish when I first started watching porn, now it seems mainstream.
The first time I really noticed it was watching a Rocco film. He spat on a girls face that was giving him a blowjob and slap her around the face a few times! Within a few years it seems many male performers were doing much the same. Thing is like you, I don't like it, but it must be popular coz we're seeing more and more of it! Maybe it just reflects a generally more aggressive society!?
I fear to think where the US porn market is going. It seems to get rougher and closer to the edge with every passing day.
At the current rate in a few years people will think I'm some kind of sicko because all I watch is the "soft stuff".
Seriously I don't think that pushing the envelope at the current time under the current administration is a good idea. In fact I think it's downright irresponsible and reckless.
Unfortunately there are massive numbers of people out there who keep this type of product moving off of the shelves. So maybe this rough porn is a reflection of the American society.
1.) Many question this. I think some of the more stable companies have taken the time to think on this issue. The real question is how a jury would take it, since the Bushies would target the industry regardless.
Asking 'hasn't anybody learned' is different from 'has everybody learned?' It is the nature of people to push boundaries, some more than others.
"Yes, there's definitely a place for submissive girls being dominated in adult, but personally I think some people are taking things too far in an attempt to set benchmarks. "
As a porn consumer, I can't stand the rough stuff. If it's a BDSM fetish film, I think it's OK. I would imagine that the performers in the BDSM films probably are into that as part of their sex life anyway and probably enjoy being tied up and spanked or whatever else.
However, I don't like seeing movies where the girl is doing sex acts that she's clearly not comfortable with. I guess my opinion is based on whether the performers are comfortable doing that type of work. I lose my erection real fast when it looks like a girl is doing something she doesn't want to. I firmly believe that sex should be enjoyable for all participants.
Porn is a reflection of all U.S. media. Everything in the last 5-10 years has been marketed to American young people as Extreme. Extreme sports, extreme reality TV, extreme video games, extreme cereal, extreme snacks and even extreme fruit juice. Just watch children's cartoons any Saturday morning in the U.S. and pay attention to the commercials. For the last 10 years, American kids, teens and young adults have been bombarded with this bullshit marketing and they've bought all the hype. The messages in a lot of the music in the last decade have been misogynistic and violent, and entertainment as a whole is all about shock. Jerry Springer, Fear Factor, Jackass, and all the like are about people humiliating themselves for the sake of entertainment. Combine that with a generation of young American men that have been watching their music and sports idols treat women like shit, and you've got consumers that demand more and more extreme behavior in their porn. Even people that get off seeing a woman take two cocks in her ass have to acknowledge that it's a circus sideshow, not erotica.
I think that it will run its course. I think America will grow out of this Extreme Reality phase. As far as the amazing feats of rectal and esophageal endurance go, I think people will tire of it within a few years. However, there will always be some consumers that hate women and get off on seeing them humiliated, injured and intimidated. I just hope that stuff returns to the fetish genre where it belongs at some point. It is mainstream now. You're right about that.
One thing I feel compelled to point out is that erotic fiction, and even romance fiction, has become rough too. These are book genres that are purchased mainly by women. The current "romantic hero" is now what we writers term an "alpha male." He ties the heroine up, he spanks her ass beet red, he pulls her hair, he wraps his hand around her neck and even "makes love to her" in the ass. This is fiction written by women, for women, and it's selling like crazy. A lot of women want to see rough sex too. We think it's erotic. That's why I like a lot of rough gonzo porn. I think it's hot, depending on the spirit with which it's performed. When it takes on that ugly tone; when the vicious name-calling, the vomiting, and the toilet dunking come into play, I turn it off. There's nothing sexually arousing about that to me, even though I know it's all make-believe and that the performers have all consented to it.
So is this the direction U.S. porn is going? The real question is; is this the direct all U.S. entertainment is going? Yes, and it's been going that way for several years. What bothers me is the complete shift in the attitude of the male "character" in porn movies. A decade ago, the guy in the porno was some lucky bastard that some beautiful woman chose to grace with her sexual gifts. He acted fortunate and (dare I say it?) grateful to have such a sexy, beautiful, nasty woman suddenly fuck him for no reason. You know what attitude the male "character" displays today? Entitlement. That bitch better swallow his cock, if she knows what's good for her, and she better make him believe that she loves it. Then, the male lead took what the sexy woman offered. Now, the male lead inflicts himself on the young girl. Complete paradigm shift.
"A decade ago, the guy in the porno was some lucky bastard that some beautiful woman chose to grace with her sexual gifts. He acted fortunate and (dare I say it?) grateful to have such a sexy, beautiful, nasty woman suddenly fuck him for no reason. You know what attitude the male "character" displays today? Entitlement. That bitch better swallow his cock, if she knows what's good for her, and she better make him believe that she loves it. Then, the male lead took what the sexy woman offered. Now, the male lead inflicts himself on the young girl."
I've seen some people around here argue in previous discussion on the matter that this particular aspect of the changing face of US porn is just as much and maybe even more so due to who is making the movies now as opposed to changes in market demands. They were, of course, referring to the influx of both retired and active male performers into the male directing ranks. Not saying I agree or disagree.
I've written about it in several reviews and on ADT, but to me American pornography is largely about pure male aggression now whereas I personally enjoy old Buttman films where the objectification came off as pure worship and the male aggression was usually limited to the scenes Rocco did or might have starred in.
I attempted to have a discussion that touches upon some of the same issues you are talking about and my thread got locked as it was intentionally pushed in the racial territory. Either way...to answer your question bluntly...I have gotten to a point where I hardly, and i mean hardly at all, watch any US made films (I mean US cast, US producers). The rough-anal (great post above me...) has absolutely the opposite effect for me. Anything on the shelf I see that carries "Wrecked" Gagged" "choked" "destroyed" etc, etc....gets automatically dismissed. The poster above that describes the "extreme" treand in our society is 100% correct. I also get the idea that it is not about sex anymore but mostly about simulated abuse (of course here someone would jupm up and say "who cares if you don't like don't buy"...). With other words I have restrained myself to some of the "classic" labels such as Private and Marc Dorcel, and a bit of Salieri. Frankly the US fascination with extreme "stuff" is simply a "zone of interest". As you point out above it is not about a beautiful woman/women making, or shall I say pretending to make love, it is about "choke this choke that" "anal this anal that"...it is not about a good intense "normal" fucking. The funny thing is if you run sort of a servey around here you would find that the predominant amount of people will be ten times more excited to see a "passionate" face than a "anally roughed-out" girl.
Another thing to consider is the changes in male/female relations in American society lately. It's no coincidence that the mainstreaming of misogynist porn began a couple years after Anita Hill exposed the ugliness of sexual harassment to the light of day. A lot of men feel powerless now. They can't express even the slightest interest in a female co-worker without fear of getting fired. A lot of women are getting promoted past their male peers. A lot of men are managed by a woman at work, then come home to a household managed by a wife. The lives of many men are ruled by women from morning til night. And since women often call the shots about sex, it's no wonder that a lot of men fantasize about a woman that will simply do whatever a man tells her to do, or that they fantasize about being a man that simply makes a woman do whatever he wants. I understand the fantasy and the popularity of it. Regular men--good men, not woman-haters--have this fantasy from time to time.
That said, I wish there were a middle ground. I love rough sex. I like watching it. I like writing rough sex scenes and I like reading them. I like physical restraint, I like spanking, I like choking (yes, I like seeing a man wrap a big hand around a woman's vulnerable throat and subdue her while fucking her, without hurting her), and I like hard fucking. I hate forced gagging, I hate name-calling and I hate humiliation. I get turned on by a man that's dominant, not domineering. And I can say the same goes for most of my girlfriends. Unfortunately, there's very little porn that's simply rough. It's either diluted couple's fare (yawn), or it's stupid human tricks. I'd like to see more hot, animalistic mating in porn. Trouble is, that doesn't fit in gonzo nor in features. In features it would be considered too rough for female viewers (which would be wrong, btw), and in gonzo it would be considered too tame.
But considering that social mores swing on a pendulum, I know it will eventually come to that middle ground. It has just about reached its far end. It can't go much further without getting downright illegal.
I wish fisting and water sports was widely accepted and practiced in the US adult industry but as long as we have moral zealots in control of our country that will never happen.
But the question asked here is; do you wish it were mainstream? Do you want it to be included in 70% of the 11,000 adult titles produced every year? Do you want to see it performed by women that aren't exactly "into" fisting and watersports, but rather by every girl in the biz because that's what's required to get work? OR, would you rather see it concentrated in the smaller fetish market, performed by people that "get" it and get off on it?
I wanna see it produced and participated by people who enjoy it, for people like myself who wanna see it.
Fisting is self-explanatory but when I say water sports I mean having fun with urine. I also wouldn't have any problem if folks wanted to participate in scat scenes but I'm personally not into that kind of activity. I am extremely liberal when it comes to sex and as long as it involves fully consenting adults, its all good as far as I'm concerned. I just wish the government would stay out of our bedrooms.
Thanks for all the responses. I agree with Pagoda's take on what are still, effectively, niche genres such as fisting etc.
So here's another question for you. Have American men become increasingly emasculated over the last 10 years? I ask this as a serious question, since historically, things like blow-jobs were never that common within American marraiges, and anal virtually unthinkable for a high percentage of the population.
That's where porn sort of came in; to cater to that fantasy element.
I've been wondering whether now, the 'rough' producers are pandering to a market which, rightly or wrongly, sees itself as emasculated by women and relatively powerless in the real world.
If that's the case, then I sincerely hope that this will die away as a genre.
I've spent years trying to make women glamorous, sexually empowered and 'in charge'. Even thinking back to some of Rocco's early films where his fan club where invited along for bukkake, the girls always called the shots. But I've just seen a Private bukkake flick (which aside from being really badly shot) was more like a soccer game crossed with a cattle market.
I've always tried to present women as attainable in the magazines, but equal, and while I know plenty of real life submissives, the porn currently being produced by a frighteningly large number of companies is so misogynistic, I can't believe that any jury in its right mind wouldn't find against it in a court.
There's a ton of good porn being produced in the US right now, no question about it, but I'm genuinely concerned that it will be swept away by a legal tide at some point.
And is it just me, but I can't seem to find anyone else in the US adult industry media asking questions about this?
You cant see 'em, but her boobs are lovely. 182 Posts 11/05
Posted - Nov 18 2005 : 8:05AM
Id have to confess that I used to like the rough stuff when it was new. By rough stuff I mean choking, gagging and such.
Today however im extremely tired of it. If a scene has choking or gagging in it ill just ignore it.
That dosent mean that I still like rough stuff though I still enjoy seriously hard fucking as long as the girl clearly likes it. Problem with the violent movie trend is that a non normative sexual act was sort of expected of normal girls doing porn. This means that a lot of people were doing stuff they clearly wasnt into. More usualy than not a girl getting choked in these movies looks afraid. That isnt entertainment imho.
Off course there are girls that likes it rough to. Tory Lane in Lewd Conduct 24 is a great example. Its really great fun seeing here totaly fuck the guy to pieces, all while looking incredibly horny. Poor guy, he really got owned by the "submissive" Tory :)
When the girls like it, its sexier than anything else.
The US market for porn is now worth $10bn and that figure is rising ALL the time.
As the boundaries are pushed all the time, rougher sex becomes more common place. That is a key factor first off.
The *softer* porn was made for everyone. Anybody can watch it, but there will always be people who what to see the limits pushed. The nasty stuff.
Due to the size of the industry, it can be more profitable to target a niche in the market such as, for example, "hard gagging", because you have much less competition in the "hard gagging" segment that you do with mainstream porn (the softer porn for everyone).
Provided you can correctly identify a niche & tap into it, you can make more profits than you would from a mainstream title.
An example of this I would say is flicks like "cum fart cocktails" - a niche market without a doubt, but seems to have been very successfull - #1 & #2 listed as "top 50" sellers on adultvideouniverse.com, with #3 due in December. Also Max Hardcore - fucks & pisses on young looking girls.
I think that is why you see the porn industry emerging the way it is. Business is Business.
Good topic. Current crop of porn titles involve spanking, slapping faces, roughing the female actresses, many things which have been mentioned already. I'm an equalist, if the girl can get spanked, the guy can too, slap her face, slap his. I agree that there seems to be a running male aggresion theme generally, something which isnt bad on occasion but I'd would equally like to see the female side to it a lot more. When I view a title, it is more to see the performances than to see specific elements which can involve crude treatment to actresses. Flushing a female's head within the toilet is one of those that will always remain a put-off for me.
"I agree that there seems to be a running male aggresion theme generally, something which isnt bad on occasion but I'd would equally like to see the female side to it a lot more."
Male aggression in porn can be hot if the females respond to it. For instance, many of the early 90s stars I like had their best scene when working with Rocco. Nowadays, time and time again the best scenes I see from girls I like, such as Sunny Lane, come when they are working with Manuel or even Mark Ashley. If Pagoda is looking for men who are dominant but not domineering in their scenes, I would definitely recommend Manuel or Mark. You definitely get a sense from them that they just love women.
As for aggression from the females, I would love to see a lot more of it too, but didn't Jules Jordan or another director basically indicate that from a practical standpoint it is tough to do films or scenes with girls in the dominant position because the current guys are so used to the opposite side of the coin that they struggle to keep a hard-on the whole time while being dominated?
I dont know. Female domination can be equally as hot as the male type you described, for me anyway. The main thing I look for is a horny response, one I feel is genuine enough than doing it because they're paid to.
I haven't seen Mark Ashley yet, but I love Manuel. He's the kind of performer that turns me way on. However even he will dunk a woman's head in a toilet. What sets him apart is that he'll immediately kiss the girl afterwards, then toss her on top of him reverse cowgirl so she drips toilet water all over his face. If she can take it, so can he. Do I like watching him do that? No. But there's an obvious difference in his mentality compared to some other guys. Manuel also gives women orgasms. He's not stingy with the pleasure. A woman can watch him and understand why some women would do just about anything for him. It's not one-sided.I suppose this is true, however I see a lot of titles that have everything thrown in. In the same title you'll get rough anal, hard gagging, choking, plus a softer scene that's vag only. And the title is something like, "Wet Brunettes." There's nothing niche about that production. It's meant to appeal to everyone, which means it's mainstream. (I like that movie, btw.)
To speak to David's most recent question: I don't know if men feel emasculated (although Fight Club would have you believe that), but women are certainly more empowered. When one person gains power, the other person often feels they've lost theirs. It doesn't have to be that way, but people tend to fixate on what they don't have, rather than what they do have. With female empowerment comes two things. 1) Women are more confident sexually and more willing to experiment. I don't know a single woman that won't give head. We all do it. Most of us like doing it. Most women I know are at least interested in trying anal sex. If porn is supposed to provide a fantasy and portray sex that men don't generally experience, then delicate blowjobs and gentle anal aren't going to cut it. 2) Women bear the weight of what was traditionally male responsibility, along with all the responsibilities that always fell on women. When a woman makes business decisions all day long and manages a dozen adults, then comes home to make domestic decisions and manage a couple kids, she's fucking tired when it's time for her to jump in bed and suddenly become a raging sex machine. Sometimes she doesn't want sex at all. And sometimes, she wants her man to take charge, make the decisions for her, and call the shots. If he wants her on her back, she wants him to just toss her onto her back, not politely request that she roll over. Sometimes women don't want to think, and sometimes women want to feel fragile and feminine. That's why rough sex appeals to so many women.
Hell, do you know how many episodes Oprah has devoted to the art of strip-tease? Average women are installing stripper poles in their bedrooms. A lot of women aren't willing to be good girls anymore, because it's fucking boring and unfulfilling. So, if some average guys are actually getting blowjobs, anal, and rough sex from their wives, what do they want to see when they jerk off in private? The same things their wife already does? Performed by women that might or might not be sexier or better looking than their wife? No. They want something different and more extreme.
I don't know if I want to see it, I'm not a fan of spitting, choking, gagging or slapping the face. A slap on the breasts or ass Ok, it gives the actress pleasure.
I've recently seen Squirting 101 Vol.4
There is a guy called "Brother Love" he likes to beaten into his nuts or bitten into his penis. First the girl, who gives him a BJ asks him if he really wants to, but after a bit of thinking she is punching on his nuts like pro-boxer. He likes it, she seems to like and they are happy. But do I like to see it? No I'm in pain and looking away.
Are there guys out there liking something like this?
Well, thanks again for the responses. It certainly looks as though the rough guys are in the majority, and I'm thankful for that.
Pagoda, excellent answers. Joel, yeah, I appreciate business is business. After 17 years of doing this, I've kind of got a handle on that ;-) What concerns me is the way a number of producers seem to be trying to outdo one another by pushing the envelope further and further. And a lot of the stuff I've watched over the last few months has been, to me at least, virtual abuse.
And just because something is commonplace, that doesn't make it right, as I'm sure you'll agree.
Now, each to their own, but when a girl leaves a set bruised and crying (and I know some who have), then I have a real problem with it. And that's putting it mildly.
Porn is supposed to entertain and allow us to fantasize, jerk off, whatever. It shouldn't leave a nasty taste in your mouth.
I just hope that some of these dudes wake up one day and realize the damage they're potentially doing to the industry as a whole.
As for guys who like it rough, well yes, there are a few who can take as good as they can give, but the point about most male performers losing wood is true. But then how many male performers in the business aren't using 'enhancers'?
I only know of one guy who works in the UK and doesn't use anything at all, so I suspect the same is true over there, too.
But that, as they say, is another conversation for another time.
Thanks for the input. I would've liked to have gauged the opinion of some producers, but I can understand why they might not want to be drawn on this subject. Probably for the same reason that I'm not naming the ones I feel are the most shameful!
Edited by - MensWorld & Mayfair on 11/18/2005 6:08:05 PM
I read the thread with interest as it's an issue that has been bugging me over the past few months.
For me, it comes down to "Do you want to see the woman loved and pleasured, or do you want to see the woman degraded?"
Guys who get off on 'degradation porn' are skewing the market right now. But there's a whole bunch of us out here who want sensual porn.
By that I mean - porn where the woman seems into it and is having fun - where there's a variation in pace (not just robo-fucking) - where a threesome is usually two girls and a guy - where the girls get into each other - where anal is about the tight squeeze, not the wide gape - where the lube comes out of a bottle, not a big luger out of some guy's mouth
I like a little rough sprinkled amongst the erotic stuff, but I don't want degrading robo-fucking. It's dull.
When I buy porn now, I almost always stick to Viv Thomas material. Sensual, beautiful, erotic.
IMHO
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smith Arthur Again
29 Posts 8/05
Posted - Nov 18 2005 : 9:23PM
Porn is evolving all the time. As long as it's consenting then I have no problem with it, although I sometimes do wonder about things like choking unwittingly going over the line. The female performers get paid well for doing the more way-out scenes, so who are we to judge them for extracting a maximum amount of money from the producers? Let them do whatever they wish so long as there is consent -consent is the key.
[Link]
smith Arthur Again
29 Posts 8/05
Posted - Nov 18 2005 : 9:27PM
David,
Aren't Mensworld and Mayfair basically soft-core porn magazines with a heavy emphasis on female homosexual activity? I mean, that's fine if that is what you like but, really, human sexuality isn't just women with big boobs posing and engaging in faux-lesbian acts. People want to see the whole kit and caboodle these days, not just the slow tease.
I could not have said it any better....the only thing that i would like to the "sensual" sex is...bring back the high quality sensual lingerie. It is so much more fun to see a woman dressed sexy being...undressed by a man who can barely control his excitment.
I am not good at humiliation play or verbal humiliation, but compared to the gonzohaus face-slapping, choking, whore/slut-yelling "dominants", I am the god of humiliation play.
A dominant who makes these gonzohaus attitude will soon be at the receiving end.
Any real life submissive would (and should) beat the crap out of someone (or at least tell him that he is the most ridiculous piece of shit shaped like a human being), who behaves like a "dominant" male gonzo-pornstar, for dissipating her valuable time with his incompetence and weakliness. Actually one should praise the talent of the actresses. They have to suppress some hard laughs, for sure, facing these pathetic wannabe dominants, if they have a genuine submissive streak.
If you overcome the term misogynism you'll see that most humiliation-extremist-you-name-it porn is in fact pathetic porn or porn produced by pathetic people.
It is first a quality problem, not an attitude problem.
Prepare to get this problem fixed if consumers start discussing that it is not acceptable to see lighting devices and microphones on film/DVD and not if the white substance coming out of an ass is milk, pinacolada or actually sperm.
Hey, Smith. While both magazines are certainly soft-core, I would argue that neither really have any heavy emphasis on lesbianism. We run a maximum of two girl-girl sets in either title, but more often than not, one girl-girl layout is the norm. For a guide, MensWorld runs seven girl layouts per issue, and Mayfair runs eight.
On top of that, Mayfair doesn't even run 'pink' or held-open shots. Never has, never will, and still it sells well. MensWorld is far more American in its style, while Mayfair is a lot more traditional glam.
As for people wanting to see the whole kit and caboodle these days, well that's still not necessarily the case in the UK. Years ago, I launched two hard-core titles while I was at a rival publisher. Neither magazine sold more than 10,000 copies per month, while the soft mags shifted in massive numbers.
I appreciate that this is an open, global market, but one of my concerns is that producers jump on each other's bandwagons and we end up snowed under a huge pile of what, in my opinion, is degrading and abusive porn, which allows Mr Bush to start slinging people in jail.
I couldn't agree more, DingAling. Next time I talk to Viv (he's just completed a huge move of the entire company to Portugal's Algarve region), I'll let him know he has a huge fan here!
I think with the deal he's done with Video Team, there'll be a lot more of his stuff in the US soon. He's also supposed to be coming to Vegas this year as well. Look for the grumpiest-looking man in the Venetian... that'll be him! He also handles the video titles we produce at Paul Raymond Publications, so he's a busy boy, but he does know his way around a good-looking girl.
Yep, I don't know any genuine submissives (and I know a few in the Lifestyle) who would get off on this kind of DVD. It's so far removed from real TPE, they wouldn't give it house space.
Zartyr, I think you misunderstood me. I didn't mean "dominant" is in "a Dominant," or "a Top." I meant dominant in a more natural sense; a dominant male displays his strength but doesn't abuse it. He takes charge of, but also protects those that are physically weaker than him. Think of the alpha male in wolf pack. He actually is the strongest physically, the most virile sexually, and the most protective and caring of the females and the babies. He also chooses the alpha female with which to mate--the one that could almost kick his ass, and lets him know it. That's what I meant by "dominant."
I'm not talking about lifestyle role. I'm talking about a physical mannerism. There are some guys that can be physically dominant and
However if I'd meant what you thought I meant, you'd be right. Most of the guys performing in porn come off either as nice guys that have some nifty submission holds (the type I like), or as sexual bullies (the rest--who look like asses). None seem like true Doms/Tops, but that's not what I'm looking for. I only know a little about that lifestyle, but it's enough to know that it's not what I'm seeing portrayed in mainstream porn.
I also agree with you about the quality of the product out there. There's just too damn much of it. It's the same problem with Hollywood, with a dozen movies releasing every Friday. They think having a bigger spectacle--more explosions surrounding a bigger star--will put a product over the top. And you know what? Sometimes it works. A lot of shit movies have raked in a lot of cash. Same goes for the record industry. Everybody wants in on the action, and the consumer has to search high and low to find something that's genuinely good among all the crap. Porn's no different than any other entertainment business segment.
With huge frustrated single male population, the stripped down and commercialized female sexiness, that is so predictable, so boring. You have the current 'market'
Read Female Chauvinist Pigs by Arial Levy, excellent book. Porn doesn't represent female sexuality, never really did, some daring experiments throughout the history of porn attempted to show female 'pleasure' but mostly it was for cash excess. I am done with it. Nothing will beat real experiences, and I am sick of watching through exaggerated colors and plastic performances. This “rough” extreme rubbish, to the bin.
Women need to reassert sexuality, not carbon copy Barby doll plastic, like I said, it's boring, predictable and so 20th century.
The more one watches modern trash porn, the more one looses touch with his/her own sexuality.
Porn does not, and will never represent human sexuality – just a dumber version.
I'm not sure if I'm taking another step forward in what Pagoda's saying or if it's a step to the side or to look at an even bigger picture. I think the 'extreme' facet is just part of it. I think it's more of the 'next best thing' obsession which has caused the one-upmanship that's come out in extreme porn as well as the short attention span for a genre or style. There's several guys out there who are making some really fantastic movies (Christoph Clark springs to mind) that seem to be completely looked over for somebody with less skill behind the camera as well as less chemistry in front of it who's basically doing the same sex act. I'm not saying that one should just settle and stop forward progress, but to me it seems like there are way too many people who have forgotten how happy they were last week or who are way too willing to throw that happiness away in the hope of getting constantly more and more. In so doing, they finally end up pushing things to the burn-out point...
"Vegetarianism for me is about saying ‘yes’ to things - even meat." - Coupling
The hotness of porn totally depends on how turned on the actors and actresses are...therefore no matter the niche or how filthy or depraved the act...or whether it is mainstream...you need to pair up performers with acts they truly enjoy, and with partners (or more) that they truly enjoy...this is the only way to get hot porn.
I hate seeing women grinning and bearing it...that makes for shit porn! that's why I love Belladonna...she never looks like she is taking something she doens seem sure about...she is always 110% into it...and so far has felt only the urge to do things with women recently...and even though I would like to see her with a guy...unless SHE wants it...it will produce rubbish porn...so I sit back and enjoy the chemistry she has with other women...knowing there will be a boy/girl movie next year and that she is wanting to do it...so it should be hot!
I think porn is pretty much in it's rebellious teen years so to speak. Mainstream porn will continue to push the boundaries of community standards and slowly eek it's way into mainstream entertainment.
However, I can't imagine things like fisting and watersports ever becoming mainstream. For something like gagging, spitting or slapping to become commonplace, it would have to somehow drive plot forward. And let's face it, most of that stuff exists in gonzo where there is no plot.
I just can't imagine Harry slapping Sally then fisting her and giving her a golden shower. Nor can I imagine there will be an cinematic equivalent to Casablana that involves an actress of the caliber of Catherine Zeta Jones being spat upon by the likes of a George Clooney.
I think pretty much the industry will stick with what has worked well up to this point and what most people are into. I think there will always be that fringe area of circus act people who are just discovering it for the first time.
I certainly hope that porn does move back to having higher production values. Mainstream movies these days do nothing inspire one to go to the theater, mainly because there's so little out there that's appealing. Gonzo in that same way has homogenized porn.
I think to improve porn people need to start looking at it as art as opposed to product.
