ok, i would never argue with Spiegler because he has been around a lot longer than me........heres the argument for contracts
1. less sex each month (4 times maybe versus 20+) 2. you get to choose your male performers 3. they market you and make you famous 4. your career tends to last longer....just ask julia ann
so there is a lot of give and take.....but for the most part i agree with Spiegler
I hear a lot of younger performers talk about how they are not in the industry for money, they are in it for the love of sex alone and/or for the fans. Yet, if offered a contract, SWOOP! There they go. "Good-bye fans, I am only going to do girl/girl now!", etc. What happens to the love of sex alone and the interest in pleasing the fans? I am surprised that there is not a long list of stars who have turned down contracts, if we are to believe these types of statements. Contracts seem so limiting.
I have seen Dasha and Trinity referred to as "FORMER contract girls," but I don't have any background on it. And of course Jewel DeNyle started off contract but it didn't last (thank goodness.) I've never heard of a girl who turned one down.
As a hardcore/anal fan, I hate to say this, but the lure of a contract seems obvious. Leaving aside those who truly are doing what they were born to do (the Tiffany Mynxes, Belladonnas, Arianna Jollees of the world), let's go inside the thought process of your average hot, skinny, blonde 19/20 yr. old starlet on every box cover for the last 3 months.
A contract = (either mandated or at the starlet's discretion) condoms only, no rough sex, no anal if you don't want to, no DPs if you don't want to, no facials if you don't want to, not even b/g if you don't want to. The pay is many times better, you only have to work 6 times a year, there is a (relatively) big publicity machine behind you, there's hope of crossover potential with dancing & softcore photo shoots... if you're lucky you can maintain yourself with those and stop doing porn at all. Or write a book telling how you secretly hate porn.
non-contract = another 2 six-guy anal gangbangs booked this week in which said guys will spit in your face & call you bitch/whore throughout.
Yes, I'm actually closer to the latter than the former in my preference, too. And Jenna's unbelievable looks and sexual intensity are what got me into porn.
But if that's the choice (& I welcome any response if I have facts wrong) three guesses to which decision that blonde starlet would make, and the first two don't count.
Damn, if only contract girls just did g/g, wouldn't I be one lucky lesbo. But they don't. Contract performers get everything cwians listed as pro-contract including their choice in male performers. Since there's a good argument for them making as much if not more money as a free agent doing alot of scenes (esp if they're doing gonzo scenes w/ DAP etc. that pay more) than if they went contract, I fail to see why you think going contract would necessarily be for the money. I'd guess it has alot more to do with the fame/prestige aspect and having a lighter schedule.
In the end this is a business and all that counts is how much money a girl makes (and hopefully saved) over the course of her career. A long career or a contract doesn't necessarily a lot of money. With all due respect to Julia Ann, et al - Bridgette Kerkove made more money in her first 3 years in the business then Julia Ann has probably made in her entire 12+ years doing porn.
In closing, FAME will NOT pay your bills! There are hundreds of "famous" porn stars out there that have difficulty paying their bills every month. As I pointed out in a previous thread: Rich and Famous are two entirely different things. When you have the choice - OPT FOR THE RICH!
Well of course Shylock is gonna say that! His livelihood derives from the amount of scenes the girls in his stead churn out. To him it's a business, and should be treated as such. But for these girls it's a lifestyle. It's nice to be pampered by Vivid, Wicked, DP, etc. and to have a PR department working to promote you, some lines in an actual film, the chance to "act", etc. It sounds pretty appealing to me if I was a new girl in this business. Not everyone can be a workhorse (nor wants to be) like Lauren Phoenix, Monica Sweetheart, Katja, etc.
6-12 scenes a year with an approved male talent list as opposed to having to perform double A, DP's, bukkake (acts which pay the most) sounds like a relatively cushy job like what greatskillz said.
While it might dissapoint the hardcore fans, getting a contract is a big deal and I think better for the girl in the long run.
Bridgette also did more scenes in her first 3 years than Julia Ann in her entire career. Almost all Bridgette's were anal, and many had DAP, DPP and/or A2M.
My guess (yes, it is just a guess) is that of those two paths, Julia Ann took the one she preferred.
Similarly, Bridgette may well have taken the one she found most appealing.
I prefer Julia Ann's scenes, many other viewers prefer Bridgette's.
Might not the performers themselves have different goals as well?
Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00
Posted - Jul 20 2005 : 3:18AM
Different girls want different things. I would think that if a girl wasn't interesting in doing fan convention or bookstore signings and appearances OR feature dancing, then the money of a contract doesn't balance out what the girl could make by doing a lot more scenes. She won't have the money from appearances to subsidize her lighter workload. Also, contract girls are required to do non-video appearances. Some girls don't like that.
There are LOTS of factors, that's just one of the ones that separates a lot of the girls.
Actually, there is not that much money in feature dancing (or stripping in general for that matter) any longer.
The days of Vivid contract girls earning $5,000/week dancing are virtually over and of the few that still may earn that much - how many weeks a year do you think they actually work?
* Now, if we were to add Escorting into the equation I might have to concede the point. But, of course, we all know that "Contract Girls" would never, ever stoop to escorting!
There are contracts , and then there are contracts . I'd guess some people may have turned down the chance to sign for , say , Extreme Associates . Does that mean they would do the same if Wicked , Vivid , or Digital Playground were to offer them something ? Who knows .
There's another financial benefit to being in contract : the lighter scenes will leave you with fewer doctors bills . Not feeling like mince meat for a week may also be seen as a benefit .
BTW I've heard the Bridgette Kerkove example used before , but that's the extreme end of the spectrum as she's about as successful in gonzo terms as Jenna Jameson is in features . It's probably better to use more mid-level success stories to compare these sorts of things , instead of focusing on the one shining light .
It's cumulative isn't it . The easy to understand up front stream of paychecks from gonzo . Or . The lump sum contract , plus money from striping , plus appearances , plus amorous businessmen , less expenses . Everyone has to do their own maths .
say you've got bad luck and you get chylamidia like many are rumored to recently. does speigler pay you when you're on the disabled list for a while and you've got doctors asking for money in addition to the usual monthly expenditures and you've just made nowhere near what you did last month and you finally put a downpayment on a car or paid off a large chunk of a loan or pre-porn debt? doubtful, don't you wish you called that guy from wicked back the other month about lunch? an agent sure as hell doesn't, if you're potential contract-material you're his golden goose and he's out of business if he says something other than what he just did to his clients with enough frequency when they've got enough buzz to warrant thinking about the possibility of jumping ship to a guaranteed income.
jamesn, while what you say is true, spiegler has 22 girls, derek has 66, exotic star has 25....whats the difference for them losing one or two? its not like they arent going to get more girls. by the way, dont know if you guys noticed, but there are 2 new modeling agencies out there that are doing quite well.
You are living proof of the Thomas Huxley phrase "If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is a man who has so much as to be out of danger?" You should gather all the facts before you make blanket statements.
BTW, if you ask anyone who knows me you'll find out that I don't do this job for the money. I don't have to!
for someone to raise interest from the major companies to contract, she'd probably be his flagship girl who he could work until the phone stops ringing and entropy does its thing with her novelty factor. speigler probably manages to keep the weakest links on his roster shooting frequently as much because of his reputation that he'll deliver a girl without question of professionalism as the girl's actually in demand. there's a decent range in the level of fan interest and attractiveness of the girls he represents.
he's running a business and were he not to try to retain his flagship girls he'd be running a charity. how many times do you think someone's called for a booked taryn thomas and ended up booking someone through him anyhow? i can't fault his position unless he's really pressing his clients not to explore the option or discouraging companies from inquiring/misplacing the message that someone wants to talk to a girl. good porn chicks don't grow on trees outside of eastern-europe, there's a forgivable bias in what he's going to say here.
lol, keep tellin' em it's a wrong number when vivid calls, i'll make you a deal-i'll write "ignorant slut" on my tombstone if you'll agree to "exploitive pimp". pinkie swear?
Everything JamesN has posted is founded in universally applicable rules for a successful business , and just tailored them for a porno talent agency . He needn't be an insider IMO to post that kind of analysis .
Rough translation of Spiegler's last post : ".... shut the fuck up , you're making me look bad and might be costing me business ."
Nothing says I love you so much as a tongue in the ass. 2884 Posts 1/03
Posted - Jul 20 2005 : 4:41PM
Let me get this straight. Benevolent giants like Vivid, Wicked and DP are being deprived of the women they really want representing them by greedy agents. I would suggest that there aren't all that many contracts to go around and not many women have to actually make this decision. Any that turn down the opportunity (not many, I'd wager) would probably fall into two categories: Women that have the money figured out and would rather make a lot of cash in a short period of time, then get out. Or, someone who's immediate need for cash outweighs the longer payouts of contracts. To accuse an agent of self interest. I don't know what to say about that. Of course they're going to do what's best for them in any industry. That's who and what they are. This is definitely not the worst manifestation of that impulse.
It's my understanding that the way it usually works is that Vivid will announce they are searching for a new contract star , and then hold interviews . Many , many gonzo gals pile through the doors only to face disappointment . Again .
i'm joking about that part, but you can't underestimate the influence the guy who provides you room and board, is twice your age and has experience in the industry can have on an 18-year old girl when he emphatically tells her "stick with me kid, contracts are for chumps". he's installed himself as some kind of bizarro father-figure and if the chick's from kentucky she's probably thinking he'll toss her out on the street if she rejects his advice and explores the option.
Besides McKenzie Lee, who I signed to Club Jenna after only 1 month in the biz here in the U.S., I have signed SEVERAL girls to contracts! However, contracts are NOT for EVERYBODY!
part of the problem with this place is people hold the adult industry to be some kind of mystery cult, where membership gives you some divine enlightenment. saying "you're ignorant" isn't sufficient or really much more than putting the scent of blood in the water for me. what you do is simple enough, possibly with a setup as spartan as the number to a cab, a phoneline with voicemail and a well-trained mynabird that could talk to rob spallone and perform roosterlike alarmclock functions. talking down to people is fun, but you need to actually address enough to prove i'm ignorant before getting the digs in, you just gave an answer appropriate to a latchkey 14-year old. what kind of specialized knowledge about an industry requiring mostly that you'll take risks am i not privy to without going through some ritual with cloaks and a goat? you talk plenty on here, there are new gossip sites fueled by extroverted and shortsighted members of your industry popping up daily and most importantly, i'm not that fucking stupid, what do i need to do to acheive an enlightenment worthy of more than a dismissive sentence for an answer. i cut you some slack and made a series of stuff deductive for a three year old and even threw you some bones. so if it's not for the money, what is it about? does anything really change about the routine of going to costco to pick up bulk enemas for your anal queens? is it really that interesting talking with a transient bunch of talent out of highschool about cosmo and whether or not a red spot is herpes? what is it? people view you as a depraved little animitronic pied-piper of porn girls. that's on the internet-won't the stares of the neighbors get oppressive as they pull their children close when they see the guy who's been running scantily-clad girls into cars for a few decades? i desire just a few words of wisdom sensei.
Since you're in a position of being able to walk away from the money you make from representing porn talent, have you considered using the power and influence you wield to encourage more STD-aware on set practices?
Spiegler doesn't pay my doctors bills and it might sound a little odd but compared to the money you make in one scene the visit at the doctor's seems to be small. Chlamydia can be cured with a few pills that you take at the same day. You cant't work for 6 days I don't want to talk it down but it's not like it's gonna kill you. Even if you would get it every month you'd still be making more money than a contract girl. Porno girls are independent contractors. We don't have the security of a fixed pay check every month but we do make a lot of money. If you are making as much as a surgeon a month you should be able to pay your phone bill on time.
Mark Spiegler has been my agent ever since I started porn in 2003. We have misunderstandings sometimes but there's is only good things that I have to say about him. I respect his knowledge about the porn business and about things in general. I know that whenever I have a problem he will be there to help me and do whatever he can. Last week I had a flat tire in the middle of the night and he came and brought me a tool so the spare wheel could be put on.
Mark is not primarily interessted in the money. He doesn't handle the girls like 'human resources' or money makers. He is strikt but fair and sometimes tells you what other people only gossip behind your back even tho it hurts. He doesn't kiss anybody's butt, you could be the most famous porno chick he would still be firing you when you don't show up for a job.
And before you even bring it up. No, I'm not brain washed by the evil Spiegler conspiracy.
You don't know what you're talking about because you don't even know the Shylock.
kissing up to the boss, huh? i'm kidding. you could teach him something about pr.
speigler, i could have said what i did about any agent, i kept things non-accusatory, just threw out some conditionals and observations without concluding anything about them. i don't know you, but your industry doesn't have an intimidating learning curve before someone can draw path-dependant conclusions, which i resisted. if that's how you react to someone expressing something other than "you're my hero, i'd love to have porn girls running wild in my home +1) that's not too impressive. this was about contraction, not you. maybe it's time to shake the rust off the old ability to respond to something professionally if it's been a while.
WTF??? you don't talk to me like that. Spiegler is just real and so I am. Fuck that shit... You know, if I was all about PR you wouldn't hear that kind of statements from me at all. Just have to add how much you pissed me off - so now you know how much of an ass kisser I am. Have a nice day you moron.
Funny, since jamesn basically said - this is how I drew my conclusions, tell me where and why I am wrong. The answer to 'why' does not seem forthcoming.
Wow, you are using really big words there! I have read & reread your arguments and I have come to the following conclusion:
What you have presented previously are merely complicated mounds of esoteric sophistry designed to batter the minds of other ADT readers into a submissive acceptance of your own personal Marxist porno business ideology!
As I, ever the Capitalist, stated before:
In the end this is a business and all that counts is how much money a girl makes (and hopefully saved) over the course of her career.
Rich and Famous are two entirely different things and when presented with the choice - OPT FOR THE RICH!
i've given up on this one if i can't make a joke i made sure would translate and then made sure to announce it as such or have questions answered as "you're ignorant! we make so much money von mises wouldn't understand the economics of porn. away with you peasant!".
thanks technology, making it possible to have a pimp flip out at me and tell me how rich he is because the effect of a mink coat and ostentatious jewelry is lost. he's got the sidekick to fire the first salvo too--the more things change......
i wonder if tony, dac and tricia feel like goodall amongst the pimps sometimes.
Introducing Brandi Swan
Posted - Jul 18 2005 : 4:35PM