In defense of my good friend "The Shylock", I have no idea why he does what he does because he surely doesn't need the money (and not because he became independently wealthy in the pimping business. He had plenty of dough before that) but I can tell you that he is one of the only straight shooters in a business that has virtually none. I have no idea as to the motivations behind your agenda but there are many more deserving targets than Speigler.
I should probably also add "Go fuck yourself" but that would be against ADT protocol so I'll refrain from doing so.
Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00
Posted - Jul 21 2005 : 3:00AM
well, since you called me out, I wanted to agree with Quaze that Mark is probably the nicest agent in the business. I believe he truly cares about all of the girls that he represents. I know none of this is what this thread was originally about, but you asked my opinion about Mark and 'the pimps' in general. I just really think that Mark will tell a girl what is best for her in her situation. If she's not gonzo material (ie. - she doesn't fuck very strongly), I think he would tell her that. If she wasn't cut out emotionally for porn, I also think he would tell her that.
quaze, i thought you were more creative than slipping a fuck you through-if you want to know the name for it my rusty latin says it's prolepsis. did you bother to look through the whole thread before you decided to reflexively support your friend and represent a company looking very little like the witty and decent guy you want to come across as? he may be a great person, he may have had a toothache, but he responded like an asshole.take out the anger on vagrants next time, they're usually too hammered to feel anything.i'm only mad at you because you used a figure of speech that's not that satisfying-i'd hope to warrant more careless outbursts. i'm going to be worse than milosovic if i make another joke and make a real pornstar angry again and people aren't here to see me go off on the main attraction.
tricia, your word is fine with me, i never should have needed it. quaze, just read it over, i like asking questions. plus, he started it mom.
speigler-it wasn't personal, it could have been ben english but he's too busy throwing the rest of his experimental phase vids into a bonfire somewhere. i left you an out and made it clear you could use it, the rest of the adult industry's going to have weighed in on your virtuous character by noon,i'll take their word in hopes of missing herschel savage's oath of loayalty. he creeps me the fuck out.
This is a bunch of horseshit. james is an asshole, but he has also presented a very lucid rational for why when a woman considers your advice regarding contracts should consider the source.
This is true in any case. As related in another thread, Tricia and I have divergent views on what constitutes reasonable on-set practices with regard to STD prevention. Any moron can see that our opinions are related to our economic interests, and should consider that when weighing our arguments.
But the fact that the best reply you can muster to james is "You're Ignorant!" or "You're a Marxist" suggests that you have the mental resources of a 14 year old, or are not being entirely forthcoming about your finances and motives, or both.
Though I'm dubious about the claim, perhaps you are, as Taryn told us in chat last night "retired at 22". Perhaps this financial independence is what gives you the opportunity to be a "straight shooter" and "the nicest agent in the business". That's great; a strong financial base often makes it easier for us to listen to our better self and act accordingly.
But if this is true, then what the fuck is this "ARE [sic] GIRLS ARE NOT GOING CONDOM ONLY" outburst last night. If you truly are financially independent, then you're in a unique positition to effect a change in an industry that at the present is predicated on patently unsafe sexual practices. Tricia can't do anything about it; she needs condomless porn to keep her health insurance paid. Mike Quasar's hands are tied; he needs unsafe sex to keep his mortgage up to date. But if you really don't need the money you make from representing porn talent, then you can and should do something – starting today.
since i'm not getting chased out of here with torches, let me tell you why you need to be smarter and why you should ask for your college tuition back if all you learned was words like marxism and sophistry so your could incorrectly-apply them. i'll pull a Mike Quasar and refrain from calling you a stupid, classless physical-defective and give you some new ideas to get wrong. path-dependance should have registered as an outgrowth of neo-classicalist economics from the 1980's ideas of paul david. it's just another tweak on hysteresis. second, only high-schoolers think the word capitalist has any meaning right now. next, gorgias and protagoras were sophists, which has nothing to do with the way i set up things. why? because you think sophist is just a pejoritive term. i prefer "ignorant" if i'm looking for one of those. this is beyond obvious but marxism doesn't mean "anything that potentially takes money away from me and i can't use commie pinko anymore". wondering if one of your clients could make more money without you now that she sells herself is about your greed restricting her ability to look outward for price-determination. guess what, that's "capitalism" in the spirity of hayek and co. i'm supporting. the funny thing is i could go on and maybe even spend the time on boldface type to potentiate points to the easily-satisfied, but i'll bill you for it. grab a yellow pages and i'm not at mckinsey, figure the rest out devito. basically, you don't steal or lie when it doesn't suit you, congratulations. enjoy your money. i'm off to eat out of the trash, i'll try not to confuse it with you. if you're really interested, use the search function to figure out why i'm smarter than you and why i don't play the financial penis-measuring games you have to to cope with a life of fas. hot kisses, james.
I suspect that this is yet another simple topic which has morphed into a pointless philosophical showdown, an excuse for 3 dollar words and a tit-for-tat recess playground exchange. Bottom line regarding health and safety.... girls who insist on condom use won't make any money because the consumer won't buy the product. They might buy it if they had no choice but with 1100 new video companies coming aboard each day there will always be some bastard child outfit offering "the only non-condom scenes in porn valley". That being said, our testing procedures, though imperfect, are still more rigorous than in the civilian population. Aside from contact with patently evil individuals who fabricate clean test results, you're more likely to win the Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes than contract a deadly disease in the porn biz. As far as pimps go, since Cailfornia vs Freeman decided that sex in front of a camera is not prostitution, there really aren't any bona-fide pimps at large in the biz but those who do provide girls-for-hire come in many a different stripe starting at the bottom of the barrel on up. Speigler's an honest guy. Honest about what girls should initially expect and honest about what expectations they should have for the future. I don't see why his independent wealth should require that he have a moral mandate to change the way the industry works. Back to the original topic (I think I remember what it was) I think that the reason you read about so many "non-exclusive" contracts is because more and more girls are figuring out that they'll make a lot more money on the open market. A contract can add years to a career (Janine, Tera Patrick etc.) but it will never pay what a girl could make doing 5 anal scenes a week. The downside of course is that when you perform with such frequency at some point either everyone has shot you multiple times and the work dries up or you burn out completely and return to Iowa.
London bombings, global warming, record gas prices. In the grand scheme of things - who really cares? Perspective is a wonderful thing.
It sounds as if Spiegler's an honest man , judged by the standards of porndom . And what a ringing endorsement that is !
Incidentally my willingness to believe what someone tells me is inversely proportional to the amount they keep repeating it . Or , in the bastdardised immortal words of Nas - "you don't have to keep repeating you're rich : you turn your back they be laughing at you ."
If we remove the infections that were a result of faked test, the rate of HIV infection since the advent of the AIM system is roughly 2000:1/year. No doubt someone's going to pipe up with "data points", but it's unlikely that any additional data is going to shift that number anywhere near the roughly 1:100,000,000 odds of having the Prize Patrol roll up on you with a check for $10M. Of course HIV is just one of several life altering STDs that one might contract.
As to the rest – moral mandate, perspective, what some other bastard child might or might not do – well that's a matter of each person's resources and each person's priorities, isn't it? You and Tricia and Speigler and I have all made our choices, as our means and consciences allow and demand.
You can be a contract girl, be rich, famous, have time to travel,spend time with family, pursue other work ventures and run your own multi million dollar company! It's just whether or not you know how to initiate your dreams.
As you are probably well aware, the sad truth is that 99.9% of the girls that enter our business have neither the intelligence, ambition or the authentic and genuine beauty that you possess. That is why you are where you are and everyone else is someplace else entirely.
The reality is that a hot new girl can work every day and make a ton of money for about 8 months and then disappear into oblivion or sign a contract and make a very respectable income for an agreed upon period of time and also have time for a personal life as well... or you can be born a superstar like Jenna and do whatever the hell you want.
Actually, condom use is very low on my list of make-or-break for purchasing product. It would have to be a ridiculously prominent display of a ridiculously ugly condom for me to pay much attention to it.
FWIW, I just watched Mirage, uh Briana Banks, get ass fucked in two different scenes in one movie, both with condoms. The reason I probably won't buy the DVD isn't because of the condoms, nor the rather weak scene editing. No, the reason I won't be buying is that it's Vivid and Vivid DVD's suck, technically speaking, and this is no exception.
Back to reality - the reason girls won't make any money is that the rudimentary math isn't beyond the grasp of your average porn producer. X percentage of people won't buy a movie with condoms in it while Y percentage won't buy a movie without. Since Y is an extremely small vocal minority in comparison to X, girls will keep shooting craps so that daddy can get a brand new bag. Fine, just don't try to tell me that X is anywhere near 100%, because it isn't.
Spiegler doesn't "keep" any of the money the girls earn "for himself". He get's paid an agent fee, a fixed, agreed upon percentage, from me once a month together with a written statement of all my scenes, date of shot etc. Most companies pay by check, they have a huge payroll department and all the money goes to the performer - LATER on the girls PAY their agent Spiegler. I insist on paying for his service he provides by representing me in his agency. If you want to buy a house and decide to use a real estate agent to help you find what you want, you're gonna have to pay that person too. So what's the big stink about?
Actually, it is a simple topic where one side is not reading (or not responding to) what the other side is writing. Though they know or suspect it, I agree with what TonyC and jamesn said. A simple answer of why a basic buisness model doesn't work would be enough.
You know, that's a good question. We spend most of our time on the East End, where celebrity spotting is at least as big a past time as it is in Manhattan. In the dozen years we've been out here there's hardly an A-list personality you could think of that has been spotted at in a resturant, shop, or beach out this way at least once.
But in the ten years we've lived out here, I've never heard a pornstar's name mentioned. Maybe they're here, but nobody recognizes them with their clothes on. Maybe they're here but nobody want to admit they recognize them. Or maybe they're just not here.
Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00
Posted - Jul 22 2005 : 3:26AM
Not true. That's not even close to being the main reason I don't shoot condom-only porn. I, as a fan of porn, prefer seeing scenes without condoms. Do they kill the scene for me? Not usually. But I definitely prefer seeing a scene without condoms. It keeps the fantasy of a world where condoms wouldn't be needed. And for me, when I'm a viewer of porn, I like it to be a fantasy of what I'd like to be a part of in a utopian sex setting.
As discussed in another thread, I truly believe that condoms aren't the thing that needs to be focused on as long as the dangerous acts are eliminated.
It sounds like some of the things Spiegler does is what agents in other buisnesses do. Be there in an emergency and keep his clients head straight enough (or choose them well enough) to be professional about their job. His buisness plan must take into account the turn-over that the porn industry is notorious for. A woman leaving for a contract would be a part of that.
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myadultgroups Deactivated User
Los Angeles 755 Posts 10/04
Posted - Jul 22 2005 : 6:54AM
I disagree, Juli Ann has also been a popular feature dancer for at least a decade, she has earned much more $$$ the Bridgette Kerkove.
Frankly, I don't give a rats ass what Spiegler does just as long as he promises to continue the tradition of bringing hot girls to the ADT party. But that's just me, I'm crazy like that.
Kimi Lixx,Julie Night,Tina Tyler and then everyone else.
Because some people think because they can post on a porn message board that it makes them some kind of genius about the business. Most likely since Mark is the only agent who posts here and goes out of his way to be friendly to ADT'ers -- of course, sure, it helps his girls get attention -- he becomes a "soft target" for wise-asses who just want to jabber. Not that the questions (contract/no contract; condom/no condom; porn labor practices in general) are without merit. Actually, they are very important, and good things for fans to have details on. But it's also very easy to make presumptions about someone else's enterprise.
I sit around often I wonder if I should try and get a regular job. Guaranteed paycheck. Benefits. Etc. But I'd rather take my chances working independently. When I had a day job I earned about $60k a year -- about what some contract girls make working for the big names. I don't make that much right now, but then when I want to take 3 weeks off, it's no big deal. And everything's a write-off.
Salesmen always make the pitch which suits them best . And in this case it's to keep girls as free agents , so the best thing to tell them is that contracts will pay less . Do they ? That's been the discussion of this thread , which derailed when some questioned just how impartial Spieger was with his vested interest . The "I'm not doing it for the money" comment was just the icing on the cake . Not heard that one in a while . It's also in salesmen's best interests to behave as "nice guys" since it costs them virtually nothing and can give them hefty rewards down the line . It's called the long game .
Then why do most porn agents come across as assholes or scumbags?
Courting the good will of a bunch of pervs on a mesage board does not sound like the path to riches. If there is a lot of fan action around certain of an agent's girls, that might help them get more bookings, but ultimately it probably has more to do with their looks, their performances and their attitude (and showing up on time and not being fucked up).
Is it remotely possibly LeeO that some individuals are in it for the love of the game? Why should Bill Gates continue running MicroSoft? He doesn't need the money. James Taylor? He's got piles of cash, he doesn't need to work the oldies circuit.
That's the word around town -- plus, you become a non-sex show pony for the most part. You can spend your Saturday afternoons in hooker heels signing DVD covers for geeks at shopping malls at the booth next to "the real-life Eddie Munster" (hey, it's a job!) or you could have sex with Manuel Ferrarra, collect $800, and be having a nice martini while your contract counterpart applies ointment to her bunions.
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chocolate_cougar Deactivated User
Dumb & Dumber 57 Posts 7/05
Posted - Jul 23 2005 : 6:10PM
okay, no more unprotected hard anal sex and vaginal intercourse. I already have a name for your next release, Petting Zoo Volume 1.
I have NO CLUE if you have any influence to what gets shot at Evil Angel and for sure you don't need to tell me. You haven't exactly covered yourself with glory when talking looks, but still you come across as an intelligent, kind person. so why the heck are you so stubborn, Tricia? I wouldn't even adress you if you would not constantly make it look like that creampies are the only dangerous act which may result in a HIV transmisson. As far as I know you caught HIV due to an unprotected anal scene with HIV-positive Marc Wallice (like seven other girls who came down HIV-positive in 1997 and 1998).
you said in an interview in May 2001
shoot all you want, but this makes me believe that you are airing an opinion that is against your better knowledge.
Edited by - chocolate_cougar on 7/23/2005 6:18:17 PM
Roxetta - WTF ?! Are you determined to try and paint this whole discussion as some kind of personal vendetta against your boy ? It's amazing to me that as soon as someone has their motives even vaguely questioned they hit the self destruct .Because they can afford to ? Because it's only porn ? Because most people don't want anything to do with porn and leave the market open to scum and Mark Wallice ?Damn straight ! The allusion was to the way an agent treats his clients , not this tiny audience . A happy client will be a long term client .
The demons which drive rich men to succeed past success probably don't have much bearing on this thread . Is it possible for someone to be independently wealthy and decide to dedicate themselves to being the best damn porn talent agent they can be ? Sure . Is it likely ? No .
Bunions or anal tears : which hurts more ? I'm not claiming that the life of a contract diva is all wine and roses , but the male talent in gonzo certainly don't all resemble Manuel Ferrara , now do they . The scenario you paint may seem ludicrous , but there are plenty worse things in life than just feeling a little self conscious .
Spiegler is certainly the best one I know of, based on personal conversations with about two dozen people in the industry. Not a scientific survey for sure, just what people offered when topic arose. If you have access to some other information, please share.
Otherwise why not bash Ben English or Frank Wank? They make much more logical targets.
Patience is a virtue, but who wants to be virtuous? 4283 Posts 4/00
Posted - Jul 23 2005 : 7:08PM
Nope, I don't make policies at Evil Angel. In fact, every director at Evil Angel is also the producer of the movie, Evil Angel just distributes it. It is the director of the movie who makes policies for that movie.
The main policy I am aware of that Evil Angel has about not shooting due to the sexual safety of the performers, is the one I mentioned about no anal creampies.
Other than that, we do not tell the producers/directors what they can/cannot or should/shouldn't shoot. Actually, I correct that. During the 'moratorium' last year, John told the director/producers that they needed to respect the waiting period and that he would not distribute any scene shot during that time period.
Why am I so stubborn? It's a personal issue. I know how I was infected. I knew the risks. I make it a point to tell all the girls I make friends with that NOTHING is risk-free. I feel that I do everything within my personal comfort zone to make sure that the girls know the pros and cons. There's companies out there who shoot condom-only porn. I don't have a problem about a condom scene here and there. I just don't feel it's necessary to tell a husband and wife couple that they have to use a condom together.
If becoming a contract girl is such a lousy proposition, why don't more girls turn it down?
Is the money not that bad after all? Or could it be that the other incentives mentioned, such as less wear and tear (literally) on the old sphincter and being portrayed as perhaps a bit more than a barely willing cock receptacle being passed between yet another bunch of hollering parolees (some of which really do make Eddie and even Herman Munster look like a fine catch), carry more weight than some would suggest?
Which isn't the purpose of this thread . It's nice that you'll defend your bud , but this isn't about him , or how he's so much friendlier than his dodgy competition . The point was to not trust what a salesman tells you when his interests are in play , regardless of how much you may personally like him . If it eases your pain I'd also question how independent Jenna's opinion is , since she hires girls as contract players . She's hardly likely to tell them "you could be making stacks more as an indy" , just as agents won't be trying to lose their meal tickets by waxing lyrical on the benefits of a contract . Common sense , no ?
a perplexing post... mostly because I don't understand "fans" like jamesn.
Being on the outside looking in affords judgements to be passed without actually having been in the thick of actual events.
The majority of girls who perform in this industry come in to make some quick money and leave. They have no interest in the fame. I meet brand new girls every other day it seems some of them are gone within a month. Some within six months. Only girls that want to make a career out of this seek out contracts.
I lived with someone who went from being a "star" in the gonzo circuit and then went on to get a contract. She certainly enjoyed the fame that went with the contract, but I could see first hand she wasn't making anywhere near the money she once made. It made her life stressful and at times very difficult.
I 100% concur with Tricia and Mike... Mark is one of the best agents in the industry. Agents loose girls all the time. Sometimes they go freelance and sometimes they go to another agent. I see it happen all the time and it has happened to Mark. It just the nature of this industry.
Also an agent gains a great deal from one of their girls signing a "contract". In most situations the company pays the agent, basically buying out the girl. That is how the industry operates and unless you work in the industry you wouldn't know some of those things.
Posted - Jul 21 2005 : 1:30AM
