This is a more specific thread to one I tried to make a while ago, but this is what I was getting at. It seems like to me that "extreme" in the broad sense is down as far as new content goes. I've heard complaints that specific interests like face sitting, face fucking, ass to mouth, slapping, golden showers, violent and degradation themes, etc, have gone way down compared to five or so years ago. Basically the movies that stole Max Hardcore's thunder, they've died out. Why? I've heard rumors that various extreme kinds of porn have been toned down out of fear for obscenity lawsuits and the like. I find this the most likely, because I can't really figure any other reason that "extreme" porn would have faded away as quickly as it has when it was really booming a few years ago.
My guess is that there is probably a small niche for that kind of porn, and it's probably not too profitable anymore. With the porn market as down as it is due to tube sites and illegal downloads. I could be wrong, but I think the girls were paid a bit more for the "extreme" scenes as well.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Aug 22 2012 : 4:19AM
I haven't seen anyone say they've cut back on acts because of fear of prosecution, but many have talked about how they can't afford to pay for gangbangs, DPs, etc the way they used to. Also many of the bottom feeder companies that relied on circus act or shock tactics seem to be circling the drain these days.
^ Max didn't get convicted for doing gangbangs or DP's, which even future-prosecutors of America (otherwise known as drunken fratboys) have been known to engage in. He got convicted for portraying an abusive character who preyed upon little girls.
The biggest reason is because porn is a business. Business breeds uniformity. Whatever is selling ATM is what everyone is going to start doing. People are fickle. They switch from one thing to the next. If people aren't buying extreme porn today, it would be a losing proposition for a company to keep doing it. Porn doesn't seem to be the kind of business for someone who picks one fetish or whatever and sticks to it. Unless it's the kind of thing that really never goes out like foot fetish or butts or something. And really, some of the stuff they were doing, well, you can really only do that kind of stuff for so long before people start criticizing you. It's hard enough just to be in the porn business. When even porn fans are trying to tear you down, you're not going to last forever. I think some of them got a little too exuberant thinking that just because it was porn they could do whatever they wanted. If they'd been a little more reserved and done things with an eye to the future, things might have gone differently. Even if it is consensual, you have to realize there are people who don't care about that and will still see it as wrong.
I don't think extreme porn has died out, it just moved to the internet. Intersec/Matt Williams' Sexually Broken site is an example of this. You could actually say all of Intersec's sites are extreme to a point. Kink's Hogtied is another (especially now with Claire Adams as dominant), Electrosluts (also a Kink site directed by Bobbi Starr) is also pretty extreme at times.
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Todd Gack Deactivated User
"Oh, of course. Todd Gack." 849 Posts 6/12
Posted - Aug 22 2012 : 2:26PM
I would suggest that extreme porn as op described it and bondage porn are separate niches. Extreme porn has fizzled away due to all the reasons described. Personally, I never understood the appeal of facial abuse, shoving women's heads in toilets, etc. Putting the violent aspect of it aside, I'm just not interested in seeing the type of girl who's willing to do this kind of stuff because, let's face it, the ones that do are your D-list type stars who, if they want to be in the business, have to be willing to do that kind of shit because they aren't attractive enough to say no to it (I hope that made sense and it's JMO). Bondage porn - to me at least - seems to be somewhat thriving; The Upper Floor, for example, is consistently turning out new product which I must assume is because there's simply a demand for it.
I don't know but I just assumed that most paying customers were like me and didn't care for that type of porn and therefore didn't buy the product. Why would a studio produce that kind of porn if they can't make their money back.
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Rubberhole Deactivated User
256 Posts 2/10
Posted - Aug 22 2012 : 4:57PM
"movies that stole Max Hardcore's thunder, they've died out. Why?..." it's called Jail Time...you recall Brandon Iron had a very successful series out named Slap Happy...it had 2 or 3 volumes then vanished...market forces did not end that series ( i.e. poor sales)...Irons' common sense did...
I think that porn, like any other line of business, are subject to changes in taste, fads dying away, and in some cases, overexposure. Working in the cellular industry, I learned quickly that what's hip to day will be gone tomorrow. I used to sell full keyboard phones like crazy, then all of a sudden people bitched about that and went to touch screen, now they're bitching again about having not enough selection of full keyboard phones. Same goes for porn, back in the day, you'd rarely see a clean shaven pussy, then in the mid 90's to mid to late 2000's you'd see most stars with barely a stitch of hair, now we're back to seeing a decent amount of hair with girls like Bobbi Starr and Kimberly Kane. I remember it used to be a special event seeing anal in porn, now a girl is considered not hardcore enough if she doesn't. Porn, like current trends, will come and go, but it will always be there waiting for someone to pick it up and make it popular again.
From a retailers point fo view I can tell you that you are right. It was always a small niche and there is still extreme porn being made, but it's a minority of the customers that buy it. Jacco
I'm not sure it's so much a matter of consumer trends. Because I think porn is kind of a lot like music, there's a market for just about every type. Just because "dubstep" came along, doesn't mean that everyone quit liking or quit buying other types of music that might have been popular or hip before. But I do get the feeling that much like when a new style of music emerges, everyone in the porn industry tries to capitalize on the newest thing because it's an easy sell. Therefor, just like there is an explosion of dubstep crap out right now, there was at the time an explosion of extreme kinds of porn. But with time, the dust settled. Still, I think there's NO way that extreme porn is SO unprofitable that virtually no one should be making any right now. There always was a market for it, and there always will be. I feel the consumer base is being neglected big time right now. Either because of the perception that it's not trendy anymore, or like I said, pressure on the industry to throttle the extremity of outrageous porn. I think it could be both at the same time.
Not true. I'm not sure why they let Brandon go, but they gave the series to another dude and kept shooting the same stuff up until about 07. Edited by - echoplex on 8/23/2012 11:06:48 PM
I think people mean it's unprofitable in terms of the effort and the risk versus the return. If you're making anything that stands out in terms of being extreme, you're probably always taking a risk in the US market.
Specifically, what niche that existed 5,10, or 15 years ago has vanished. There are internet sites for pretty much any content you wish to see. Remember when they ended the Rough Sex series due to all the complaints. You can see similar stuff everywhere. Kink.com is easily as hardcore as that was. They just throw in the interview where the girl says she was cool with everything to cover their asses. What doesn't exist anymore is the need for videotapes and dvds traveling thru the mail. I think that's made everyone a bit braver. Edited by - aclayfan on 8/24/2012 1:05:27 AM
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Aug 24 2012 : 3:30AM
Uh, Kink.com? Bound Gangbangs is pretty extreme, makes the stuff that Red Light, etc shot look like kindergarden.
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Rubberhole Deactivated User
256 Posts 2/10
Posted - Aug 24 2012 : 9:04AM
echoplex: I don't recall that series ( Slap Happy) going on until 2007 with some other guy...if so, why can't a consumer find the original volumes...??
Rob Black and Max Hardcore both went to jail for putting out too extreme content. Don´t know about Max, but Rob Black took a total 180 after his release and are now focused on making parodies of big hollywood movies. He´s protrayed in the new Louis Theroux documentary entitled "Twilight of the Porn Stars"
I don't think it has died out (unfortunately), just moved to the niche it deserves to occupy. My problem with all the A2M/chokefucking etc is not its content, though I despise it, but that it had become mainstream and ubiquitous. In my decade-long porn downtime I occasionally watched the odd video and it was simply impossible to avoid the more stomach-turning acts. If there was a girl that caught my eye and tried to focus on her work it was almost inevitable that 4 out of 5 videos of hers had her faux-abused by a bunch of faux-lowlifes. Sure, there were some terrible cable-friendly videos by the usual suspect companies, but if you happened to like a bit of raunch then there was almost no hope to watch it without also witnessing some sad woman-hating fantasy. If you liked anal -as I do- as anal *sex* and not some circus act, there was no hope, period. Let all this become a niche, like watersports is a niche over here in Europe and let mainstream be a bit more, well, mainstream :). Unfortunately, in the US at least, this mainstream now consists of inane and unfunny "parodies". But nobody ever accused the porn industry of having good taste now, did they? Imp.
Extreme acts in mainstream porn is going down ?? YAY !! I'm really tired of the slapping, face-fucking, gargling and other stupid acts. If I want something more extreme, I like to know where I get it, but I find it unnerving when it's in mainstream porn.
Evil Angel pretty much allows their directors to do as they damn well please, this has already got John Stagliano in hot water with the Feds once, fortunately the charges were dropped at trial. Luckily John has the sense to pick people that are extremely capable of doing their jobs and actually make money with their movies. About the only things I know of that Evil Angel will NOT ALLOW his directors to do is bestiality, child porn and cream pies. The first two items the reasoning is obvious, cream pie scenes aren't allowed because that is how John and his wife were infected with HIV (yes, they have both retired from performing). Considering the reputations of some of the harder-core directors (Rocco comes to mind, so does Belladonna) currently working for Evil Angel the content is actually not that far off of mainstream.
^^ To be honest I really miss the cum fart swallowing like blow it out your ass etc.. It is a shame that EA has banned the cream pie act, since I believe Mike Adriano would be perfect for an anal cream pie/cum fart swallowing series.
Most of that stuff was niche porn but when porn was selling better the niche was bigger and better able to support it. Now that porn sales have dropped overall so has the niche stuff. That stuff will never have a big audience in terms of overall porn anyway because the majority of porn watchers watch porn to see sex. That stuff usually has nothing to do with sex and some of it only appeals to people who like seeing women degraded. The vast majority of porn watchers just aren't into seeing women degraded in that way or to that degree. Many people will check it out to see the "Circus Act" aspect of it but they lose interest fast because it's not sexy or sexual and actual sex and/or sexy situations is what the majority of people watch porn for in the first place. The websites that offer that type of stuff may be able to do okay because that niche audience has few places to get that but I'd suspect that if there were more sites offering that type of extreme stuff they'd splinter that realitively small audience and would have trouble surviving.
You can scratch Belladonna off of that list. From what i've read on this forum and on others, she's done with the industry. Her partner is taking her place and will continue some of her series (i.e. Belladonna's Fucking Girls, Belladonna's No Warning, Belladonna's Girl Train, Belladonna's Fetish Fanatic).
^Aiden Riley is credited as director on her latest DVD, even tho it says Belladonna's Girl Train 2... At one point i was following her discussions on twitter and she made it clear that Aiden will direct her on-going series... Maybe she'll get bored and make a comeback... Edited by - eccentric_mike on 8/27/2012 4:02:55 AM
^Well I guess at ome point she will have to change the names of her movies to something other than Belladonna since if she isn't directing than her name should not be attached to the project. A customer looking for a Belladonna movie may not be happy in finding out that she didn't direct it.
The only kind of "extreme" porn I'd say I can't live without is bukkake. American pornographers never did this niche particularly well. At least not consistently. The Germans seem to get it right sometimes (I don't care for the GGG stuff though). The Japanese doa lot of bukkake but have a lot of annoying habits and tend to censor most of their porn.
Sasha Grey did most of that, and she was probably the biggest star in porn since the heyday of Jenna Jameson. She was certainly anything but D-list or unattractive...
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applebomb1 Deactivated User
18 Posts 8/12
Posted - Aug 31 2012 : 4:27AM
its probably because todays adult studios and their directors and producers are too afraid of taking a chance on making anything exciting and unpredictable. Remember once upon a time when there was a studio called Extreme Associates ? They had this series called Slap Happy?? Where Brandon Irons and Coffee Ron would just slap the hell out of women and throat fuck them until the guys cummed all over the girls?? Those were the good old days :( sure wish they would do that again in porn.
^ And yet EXTREME ASSOCIATES and that type of porn is long gone and just a memory. I think that's an indication that the audience for that type of porn isn't that big and the reason it hardly exists anymore has more to do with what audiences want moreso than any director or studio being afraid to shoot that stuff. I admit I liked some of EXTREME's stuff but much of it was just over the top weird/extreme for the sake of being so just to get attention. Edited by - draxxx on 9/1/2012 7:57:22 AM
I remember one Extreme vid with Victoria or Veroncia Caine that has her with 4 or 5 guys, and the action went on for hours before he started filming to get a certain look to the scene. they were good scenes, with I think, Kupro aa director. Directors took more time.
^ EXTREME actually made some good stuff as far as the actual sex and they had some good performers that often worked for them. The over the top wierd and extreme themes/sex and degrading women stuff just was sometimes interesting to watch but often wasn't at all sexy. I think those things was what help set EA apart from the pack but probably hurt them in the end. I tend to think that most porn watchers just want to see pretty girls having sex. I think all the extreme gimmic stuff done to women that really doesn't relate to actual sex is just distracting to most people and they either get tired of it quickly or just avoid it altogeter. The EA stuff actually often had good sex in it but the extreme stuff just detracted from it.
Extreme was good for the business. No more lovey kissy kissy blowjobs. More ass fucking. It took the gloves off porn, and even if it has gone away, its effects can still be seen. A woman's orifices exist only for the pleasure of men, and we have extreme porn to thank for showing us the way.
What is Extreme anyway, for some it seems to be just assfucking or gangbang or gaping, which i dont really claaaify as extreme. Even a bit of slapping i wouldnt classify Extreme, but if there is lot of slapping and it gets hard then it is Extreme, and that i dont like so much.
You could try the site Facial Abuse, that sounds like what you are looking for. Rob Black from Extreme is out of prison now and making movies so that may also be an option. Personally I think both take things way too far (and I am very kinky) but different strokes for different folks I guess.
Don't think that there is a combination of factors that occurred for extreme porn. Some, like creampies, had some legal implications and are less and less present or banned. Some, like face fucking, have been proposed to the public but proved to be more of a niche market. There are specialised websites for those. Some, like gapes/ rose buds/ prolapses, have gained wider appeal (thanks to Jay Sins work) and starting to enter mainstream market.
Actually EXTREME ASSOCIATES was what you mention and more. They had senarios/set ups showing covered in various types of sludge/goo, girls being punished with hard sex and gangbangs, girls banged by terrorists, girls being forced to have sex, and girls drinking guys cum from cups plates and such. Then there was the wierd stuff that sometimes included clowns and religious symbols, strangely dressed people, and people who played disturbed people.
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Sep 1 2012 : 10:10PM
The reason extreme porn has died has nothing to do with a lack of demand for it. The demand still exists. The supply does not. The reason that it is no longer being produced is simply fear. Even though that fear should be non-existent due to changing politics (the administration that presided over the recent obscenity prosections is no longer there, and the current one has displayed no interest in prosecuting anything), there is still a fear within the industry that showing anything that pushes the enveelope will bring undesired attention. This means that those of us who like edgy extreme porn, and would willingly pay to see it, don't get to see it anymore. Instead, we get a never-ending barrage of parodies and cougar titles. What fun! For those who disagree that this is the likely cause for the disappearance of extreme porn, it is quite telling that all of the extreme porn that used to be so common suddenly disappeared right around the time that Max Hardcore got convicted. If it was purely a matter of economics, then it stands to reason that it would have disappeared long before then, or never would have become popular in the first place. How does something that was once so popular suddenly stop being popular almost overnight? Again, it's not a lack of demand, just a fear to supply it. Case in point, I remember corresponding with one porn director by e-mail who used to shoot edgy extreme scenes. This was during the Max Hardcore trial before he was convicted. This director basically said that if Max got convicted, the only porn that would still be around would make Playboy look extreme. Damned if he wasn't lying. I have no doubt that if Max and Rob Balck had been acquitted, then we would still be seeing extreme porn made in the same volume that it once was.
^Although you may be right that extreme porn producers were scared off. You are wrong that there would be just as much volume of it today because the industry can't sustain them anymore than it can most other kind of porn. The only way we can test your theory is by having the past extreme porn producers make some new movies like they used to. If they limit themselves to internet only then they shouldn't have as many problems. I might be wrong but I thought that the reason why most of the guys had legal problems was because they were shipping all over the US.
I'm sure fear played a part of it but it's debatable just how "popular" the extreme stuff was. For all the talk of Max Harcore and the type of movies he used to do I don't think Max's movies were big sellers in the porn world. Yeah, he had an audience but was a niche audience that wasn't that big compared to most mainstream porn. JM Productions makes what some would consider extreme stuff. JMP sells but I wouldn't call it popular and I don't even think the extreme stuff is/was their best selling stuff. From what I can tell the more extreme EVIL ANGEL directors aren't the best selling ones. Clearly that stuff had an audience but I don't think it's as big as some may believe. I don't believe it just stopped being popular overnight or suddenly disappeared. I think it was a niche product that faded away when porn overall took a hit in sales. Fear may have had a factor in studios and directors doing certain acts because of the Max Hardcore conviction but most of the extreme stuff they could've easily kept doing without fear of conviction because it isn't considered illegal. But a lot of that stuff just faded away anyway. Slapping, choking, degrading, etc., aren't illegal. If the audience was big enough to sustain/support that stuff I just don't see studios/directors stopping from shooting it.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Sep 4 2012 : 3:19AM
Not true. Extreme Associates were going down financially, bouncing checks right and left, long before the Feds stepped in. Red Light was effectively out of the rough stuff and on its last legs financially when Max's case came up. JM survived their case but have basically ceased to exist these days, because of the economic decline in the industry, not fear of prosecution. Elegant Angel and Evil Angel had moved away from it as well, still producing some but not nearly at the same clip. I doubt the convictions had too much an impact on producers directly, here I think the economic decline of the industry in general is more significant, but from what Jake Malone and others have said I'd say the issue was more about convincing distributors and retail outlets to carry some of the rough stuff, plus they often can't ship it to Canada or outside the US, not to mention several US states. Those who have survived have survived economically by diversifying their product into what I would guess are more profitable and popular niches like lesbian, big butt, gapes, transexuals, etc. And I would guess that Kink.com has stolen a fair amount of their thunder. Why pay for the expense of a DVD and the shipping when you can get a subscription to the likes of Bound Gangbangs?
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sickguy Deactivated User
I'm unofficially Beauty Dior's #1 Fan 736 Posts 9/06
Posted - Sep 4 2012 : 6:47AM
A little off topic but wasn't there a lot more than just 2 or 3 volumes?
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - Sep 4 2012 : 10:20PM
^There were five volumes with Brandon Iron, who started the series. After he left, Extreme continued the series with Coffee Ron. Since I didn't think Coffee Ron was anywhere near as good as Brandon Iron was, I no longer watched it after Brandon left. It wasn't good anymore after that.Some of the people who worked for Extreme Associates have talked about how Rob Black could be a jerk, and would bounce checks to them. But there's a difference between bouncing checks because you don't have the money, and bouncing checks because you're a jerk who just doesn't want to pay your employees even though you have the money. From what I've heard, I think the latter applied to Rob Black.It goes without saying that the economic downturn of the porn industry has had an effect on the more extreme niches of porn. After all, the lack of revenue is affecting all of porn, including the mainstream vanilla sector. So of course, more non-mainstream niches are also going to be affected by it even more. The point of my statements was not to say that economics has played no factor in the type of porn we see produced nowadays. However, the fear of prosecution in the wake of the Max Hardcore and Rob Black convictions also sent shockwaves through the industry to other producers making similar content, which was the immediate cause for the disappearance of extreme porn, even more so than economics. Extreme producers like Khan Tusion and others who shut down their sites in the aftermath of the Max conviction may not have been bringing in as much money as, say, Vivid and Playboy. But they still had sizeable audiences, were making decent money from their sites, and had established themselves as popular figures among their core audiences and within the industry. With the economic downturn, they may not still be able to make as money from their content as they did when the industry as a whole was more lucrative. But relatively speaking, they would still be as popular. If other small non-extreme fringe sites have managed to survive in the economic downturn, then there's no reason that the extreme sites could not have done so as well if they weren't still afraid of possible negative attention.Distribution is not an issue for web sites. When web sites start disappearing (I don't mean no longer updating, I mean actually disappearing from existence), then that's a big flashing indicator that it's not money, but fear of having the wrong people see it.I do not consider Kink to be an "extreme" site. So it doesn't qualify for this discussion. People keep saying Kink is "extreme" just because it's a BDSM site, which is not the same thing. Kink is just regular vanilla mainstream porn with some ropes and candlewax thrown in. It in no way compares to now-defunct sites that showed things like guys pissing in girls' mouths, spitting on them, smacking them, shoving their heads in toilets, calling them names, etc. When I think "extreme," I think of what some people would label as "abuse porn"- the types that Rob Black and Max made. That's extreme. Kink is not.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Sep 5 2012 : 2:41AM
realtip, you obviously have not checked out Bound Bangbangs, which is full of fisting, rape fantasy scenarios and various other extreme material that you seem to think they don't have simply because they're generally a BSDM site.
^Very true and I'd like to add that the BSDM is a lot more tame now than it was a few years ago. These days they shoot a more extreme type of porn with a slight addition of BSDM. That's not to say that they don't have a couple of sites that are dedicated to BSDM but those sites tend to be all BSDM and very little sex.
Introducing Dallas Rea
Posted - Aug 22 2012 : 12:54AM
