Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Oct 27 2010 : 8:05PM
You cannot compare this to the war on drugs, which, by the way I fought for 35 years, just not on the side of the police. Try comparing this to the war on napster. Napster lost if i recall correctly, and it didn't take 35 years. What you are saying is that the pirates, much like the people who are in jail, have so much time on their hands, all they do is devise ways to break out of jail. In your scenario, all we need to do is hire these out of work cyber genius people to fight back. Sounds like a good idea. Glad i thought of it. Again, it is as simple as getting the ip addresses, which is happening right now, and send them a bill or sue them, which is also happening right now. I can tell you 7000 plus people who are right now thinking twice about downloading illegal content again.
This is likely not going to be a simple procedure when all is said and done, however. It's very likely that courts are going to get involved, make rulings, etc. I'm uncertain that this idea will survive all of those tests...at least in its current, apparently-without-boundaries incarnation--for reasons previously stated awhile ago. We shall see. It is clear that the bleeding (financially from piracy) has to stop, though. And...it is quite difficult to have any sympathy for the pirates, either.
Regarding Napster: It's true that the site itself was no longer permitted to partake in piracy...but look at the record industry today b/c of the model that they introduced. Sales are down ridiculously. The piracy is still there and, likely, more prominent. Record stores--as such (and sadly)--are nowhere to be found (or extraordinarily rare). Metallica also took quite a slogging for "suing their fans" (at least threatening to do so???) back during that time. I'm unsure whether the record companies' strategies really worked out in this regard, when viewed in the sum total. I'm also unsure whether there really is a good strategy that will work out.....other than changing the laws on the matter and enforcing them. [As noted previously: I have never been one to partake in internet-pirated material -- be it music, porn, mainstream movies, etc. I acquire everything through legitimate sources -- typically via purchasing it or being given it.]
Why is it an epic fail for Hustler? Hustler didn't steal Avatar. Hustler made an porno spoof of it. Which they spent their money making. They have all the right in the world to go after the thieves stealing it.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Oct 28 2010 : 2:34AM
The 3d in the movie didn't sync with the picture. Making this movie quite the failure. Still it doesn't deserve to be hi jacked. Actually, it didn't deserve to even be sold. Due to the defective nature of the 3 d. They really need to fix the 3D version, which I personally think 3D is not ready for porno. At least the old red/blue glasses versions should never be made.
Why do these torrent and rapidshare hosts even exist? The movie industry lets megavideo operate as long as they immediately remove all offending content. Why can't rapidshare or warez get threatened with similar massive lawsuits? Hell, why can't the major motion picture companies deliver those lawsuits? Kill the host sites! And why are we still talking about the tube sites? Porn studios figured out how to deal with them - keep the teasers and offer the HD content at a discount price. Let the P2 (non-primary) audience jack it to 3 minute clips if they want. As long as the primary consumers pay for the product, they can accept the sites. Unfortunately with the availably of the good stuff for free, the model falls apart.
But lulz indeed at Hustler getting ddos for "attacking pirates." It's interesting to see how thieves organize to protect their black market activities.
Okay...I received a copy of this for review -- with the red and blue glasses -- and I noticed that the 3D was bizarre, as well. Good to know I'm not the only one who had issues with it...I was beginning to think that I might have needed a different TV or something.
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TheDreamPolice Deactivated User
170 Posts 2/10
Posted - Oct 28 2010 : 10:37AM
All most all of these sites operate in countriese were copyright infringement isn't taking seriously. I must admit, I to am curious why the porn industry,music industry, and the rest of hollywood doesn't join together and go after rapidshare,depostifiles, hotfiles, because they actually pay (off incentives) people to upload. It's one thing to just share, but these companies are basically paying uploaders for uploading content.
I'm not sure if that was a typo, but anyway - I want to understand why you think this is counterfeiting rather than stealing. I don't think the difference is really relevant, but you apparently do.
I didn't know about the 3D being off in the movie however this question was aimed at Charn's statement "I didn't know this is about piracy of a parody. By Hustler. Epic fail for them, epic lol for us." which sounds to me like Charn is saying that if something is a parody of something else than it is perfectly acceptable to steal it.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Oct 28 2010 : 1:42PM
I don't agree with Charn at all, it is a parody and they have every right to make it, they also have every right to go after whomever steals it. People who seem to condone piracy have an unlimited list of justifications why it is ok to take something that is not yours without paying. Not saying Charn does this, that I don't know. I'm sorry but i see this as very black and white. I am not under the illusion there is a gray area. It is very simple. A company puts up the money to manufacture a product, they pay the fee to copy right said material, therefore they own said material. If that company decides to give it away, they can. No one else has the right to decide to giveaway another companies product. Believe it or not, when I buy a movie, an album, a porno, a piece of art,a program for my computer, I know I am doing the right thing by paying for it. I support the artist so he can continue to make more of his work. I feel good about that. I never would feel very good about myself knowing that I was stealing from anybody.
I meant it's an epic fail for the 4channers. Making such a massive campaign of stealing a Hustler parody and getting hit with $140 bills must be internet rock bottom. This is the poster story for internet porn addiction. It might also work as marketing for the movie, since I might actually rent the video to get the background of what I'm laughing at.
More precisely internet free porn addiction. It would be interesting to find out how many of those defendants never even watched the Hustler movie because they were too busy downloading more/newer/better/freer/awesomer porn and never got around to actually viewing it.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Oct 28 2010 : 5:58PM
I don't think 4 chan benefited one bit from this, other than bring a massive amount of unwanted attention. They shut down Hustler.com for 2 hours, so what. If you think larry gives a shit about that you are sadly mistaken. I worked for Larry and know him pretty well. Well enough to call him Larry. Here in a nut shell is how he thinks.If you ripped him off for $100, he will spend $10,000 to get it back. Money is not a factor for him. It is strictly principle. He won't sit still,{no joke intended}, for people stealing from him. He will sink $5 million into making sure that they don't do it again, he likes to send a message to potential violators. I must say again, if people think they are anonymous on their computers, they are very wrong. If they want to find out who you are, they will. Any hacker will tell you the same. There is no free lunch. You never get something for nothing, you always get nothing for something.
I would like to see some of that extraordinary expense and effort put into their porn. They've been the dregs of the industry longer than most companies exist.
Fergus wrote:What was a typo ? I don't want to repeat myself so, maybe this video will get the point accross better than I can: http://questioncopyright.org/minute_memes/cint_release Let's say the whole porn market consists of 100 customers, some paying 500$ a month, others paying 5$, for an average 20$/month. Why wouldn't it be possible to give everyone the same content and making everyone pay 20$? Or 25$? Companies would earn more money while giving more value to the customer, it's the basics of win-win negociations. Trying to sue the customers is a lose-lose situation: you lose money suing them, some customers lose money in the trials, and everyone get really tensed. I do understand Hollywood woody when he says "you have to pay for what you take", and I agree 100%. I feel he just can't see past the DVD and pay-per-view business. I do think we can devise a better deal for the customers in the future, while making more money. Every generation feels like the younger one has it all wrong and will completely screw everything up. Eventually, younger people take over, help move forward and then get entangled in their habits. Same old, same old. Thanks by the way for having this debate, it's something we really need. Have a nice day everyone.
I just realized what is missing from this thread. When woody says pirates "are very, very wrong" about anonymity, there should be some ominous background music, such as from one of the classic horror movies with a great soundtrack.
(I do wonder how this is all going to work out if it's someone who's under-age who did the illegal downloading) Edited by - fu_q on 10/29/2010 12:17:16 AM
^ It's hypotheticals like that which serve to highlight just how absurd the penalties for this shit really are. I'm not saying that copyright infringement is right; I am saying that someone losing their home over this just doesn't pass the smell test. I think that ultimately the penalties will be found to be unconstitutional - even on the low end of the scale they're egregious.
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Solar4 Deactivated User
183 Posts 10/10
Posted - Oct 29 2010 : 6:08AM
I think it's accurate to compare it to the War on Drugs. Billions were spent to eradicate drug use (only certain types though as Alcohol and nicotine were allowed to kill millions) over at least 40 years, hundreds of thousands of non-violent offenders have been incarcerated making the USA the country with the highest percentage of its population incarcerated and the war still failed. But this "War" will be an even more spectacular failure as in this conflict one isn't dealing with actual physical property in many cases that can be easily seen and confiscated but bits of data on fiber optic cables. And as for Napster, yes it was a taken down and the RIAA thought they had won. But since then, filesharing of movies, music, and other digital content has only increased and while RIAA/MPAA attorneys have made millions on fees, the war against downloaders has failed. Edited by - Solar4 on 10/29/2010 6:13:14 AM
^ Agreed. See the Grokster case in 2005. That didn't do anything to stop P2P filesharing. You put one fire out and 10 more spring up in its place. You can't win against piracy like this. If you wanna win against piracy, you've gotta have a whole new paradigm shift in the method you go after them. Suing people isn't gonna get it done, no matter what anyone says.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Oct 29 2010 : 12:33PM
I can see way past the dvd and pay per view. Like I said, the new business model maybe to fight free with free. If we put up a free site with our content, get paid advertisers, and work with our traffic, that would surely shut down the pirating of our product. Also sometimes you will spend money for legal to send a message. It also hasn't been proven that one will lose money suing them, we will find out when the Hustler lawsuits play out.
@Hollywood woodyThis is an idea to fight piracy, not offer a better business model. If you fight the symptoms without treating the cause, it's likely it will come back again. As ChodeMasterJ said "You put one fire out and 10 more spring up in its place." Do you really think the porn industry can survive on ad-support? If not, what do you think the industry will be selling 10 years from now ?
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Oct 29 2010 : 1:53PM
There are other areas for revenue, international, licensing, cable tv. Believe me I don't like any of this one bit. I see myself selling shoes at Nordstroms within 5 years. The bottom line is this, we are caught in the perfect storm, if things don't change, and I mean soon, you can bet your bottom dollar your favorite studios will be out of business. They cannot survive. Between the internet piracy, the glut of product, the bad economy, it spells disaster. Nothing is free in this world. If people feel they can just take without paying, they will come to find a horrible depression. If everyone walked into Ralphs or Vons, got their groceries and walked out without paying for them, Ralphs and Vons are going to close. It is just that simple. If everyone decides they are going to illegally download movies and music, there is no money to make new music and movies. Enjoy watching the same shit over and over.
^^ Surviving with free content and living off of ad support is already proven not to work by their mainstream alternatives. I can't find them right now but last week I was reading some articles about networks reducing the amount of free online programming they offer because people are stopping cable services resulting in the networks not getting enough money to pay for their programming.
@hollywood Woody You keep insisting about stealing and getting things for free. You seem to think the only way to avoid the crumbling of the industry is fighting piracy by threatening people with lawsuits so they turn to legal alternatives. My way of thinking is that it's going to be a very costly, frustrating fight with little to no effect, and it will make potential customers angry at the industry. As I said, I don't have the answer all figured out, but I think the industry can take advantage of the Internet to offer better value for the customer, making piracy a less interesting option. I think the Internet enables companies to offer better value without a significant increase in costs. I firmly believe that you can make money by offering almost all of porn for a reasonable price. Here are different ideas on how to create more value easily and for a small cost. 1) benefit from the porn community with highly motivated fans. Just like wikipedia, you could let fans enrich the database with playlists, insider info, comments... You would get all this information for free. 2) some sense of immediate, unlimited, fair pleasure. I hate it when someone recommends a scene that I cannot buy from the internet. I have to order the DVD, wait several days and sometimes realize I don't like it and feel like I spent 20$ on a useless piece of plastic. Just imagine you can comment on a scene, append a link so people can see it immediately, comment back on whether they like it or not... 3) now, people start watching porn on their iPhone, iPad, desktop PC, laptop... What if you could let them access their porn from all their devices? This business model has to be considered in a global point of view, not individual one. It needs tight cooperation between different studios so there is still a long way to go. But since I think fighting piracy with a stick will prove to be a dead end, we'd better start considering other alternatives.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Oct 29 2010 : 6:55PM
1.We do benefit from the porn community already with sites like ADT and Xcritic.com. I am not so sure anyone cares about another persons playlists, they do care about reviews, which is what we get here and other numerous sites, including Adultdvdempire.com, and gamelink etc. Insider info, which is what i and others give you and comments, which you give us are also found here. 2.There are plenty of sites that offer PPM and PPS. This is porn, not so sure I want to read how you came in 35 seconds because this scene was so hot. This also goes back to reviews by customers and critics, already plenty out there. 3.As soon as the carriers allow porn to flow over the iphone, which I think some do, it will be/is being done. It just isn't free. So far you haven't mention one thing that changes any business model, not only for the better, but at all. I understand how you may not like the idea of getting sued, but the studios have been backed into a corner. If LFP is successful at slowing down their piracy issue, or gets 1 dime from these lawsuits, you will see an onslaught of more lawsuits, from more companies. Maybe someone will get the message that you have to pay for what you watch, if you don't own the copy rights to a movie, you must pay to watch it. I just got a Kindle, I searched their library, I found dozens of free books, like Swiss family Robinson, The Bible,Dracula, Little Women. Great reading. All Free! But if i want to read the NY Times best sellers, I have to pay. So I might just download me a Dracula, but if I want to read the new Keith Richards Bio, Keith wants his duckets, so does the publisher. For the third time, I have mentioned other alternatives to lawsuits, again for the last time, by putting up our own tube site and offering free scenes, clips of new movies coming out etc. would deter and redirect a ton of traffic away from the current illegal sites out there. Why doesn't Warner Bros. make their library available to you for $20? I will tell you why, because they own the content and if they find your fingers in their pie, they are going to go after you. All it takes is one test case. One poor smuck that gets fined for $150,000, for a whole lot of people to stop what they are doing, and think about doing some agonizing reappraisal of how they are getting their content. One guy. Edited by - hollywood woody on 10/29/2010 6:58:23 PM
@hollywood woody You clearly have a meaningful experience in the porn business, but I still don't get why you always go back to "you can't have everything for free" and "fight free with free": I never spoke a word about that. People have to pay for content, I agree 100%. But why couldn't they get more bang for their buck since marginal distribution costs of immaterial digital files have dropped to almost zero? I am sad to say I feel we don't understand each other. I guess we have the same goal in mind, we just don't agree on the diagnosis and the remedy. When you say I haven't submitted any new idea, it feels like you're telling me "Twitter? It's useless, why would we need that when we can already send 140-character-long messages from every single cellphone? It's called texting and it's nothing new." Yes, it's a service that enable users to send 140 characters per message, but it has proven to be much more than that. For example, I'd like the comments to be integrated into the video database service, not left outside. I'd like to search for scenes with a special fetish and actually find them thanks to the users' tags. 80% of sites I subscribe to have either a ridiculously small database compared to what was advertised, bad video quality, poor tagging/categorizing or a cluttered interface. How can you fight piracy with that? Edited by - Jambavant on 10/29/2010 7:53:15 PM Edited by - Jambavant on 10/29/2010 7:54:05 PM
BTW, I think there is a lot to learn from the music and cinema industries: they've been spending much time and money on lawsuits through the RIAA and other associations. They've lost a lot of money, they have won some trials in which the person accused of piracy was fined hundreds of thousands of dollars. They even went into the gray area, paying companies to hack pirate websites. They pushed laws through lobbying, they spent a lot of money on anti-copy systems... Where are they now? I don't see the situation change until there is a paradigm shift in the way we consider intellectual property related content. Edited by - Jambavant on 10/29/2010 8:07:19 PM
Two days ago, I saw this article: "Dozens of Great Alternatives To LimeWire". The situation hasn't changed a bit. I also just read some old threads on ADT about the very same subject we're talking about. After reading through a few pages, I feel like I'm useless in this debate. I have far less experience and communication skills than some members of those threads and we're still at the same point 6 months after that. Some of them even got their profile deactivated from ADT for their posts. So I guess I will step back, enjoy the good reviews here at ADT, pay for my porn, and see how it turns out for the war on piracy. If I can be of any help, I'll be glad to do so.
I think part of the problem with your thinking lies here. Most of what you pay for isn't distribution costs. You pay for the production. Per person buying them, adult titles cost more than mainstream ones. Especially when you factor in titles in the feature category. Even if you completely removed the distribution cost, the production still needs to be paid for and the company needs to make a profit. Allowing everyone access to the entire catalog for $20 a month will not pay for the next Pirates or Malice in Lalaland style production.
@Flash What matters is not how many people watch your movie but how many PAY for your movie. My point is that a drop in distribution costs makes it possible to let more people watch your movie as long as you get as much money as you would have if you sold it by the piece. My guess is you can make even more money, but i can see you do not believe in that.
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Solar4 Deactivated User
183 Posts 10/10
Posted - Oct 30 2010 : 8:15AM
It can be $30/month, but the relevant issue is there are alternatives to the "refuse to change ones business model and sue everyone" strategy. Such a strategy not only has failed in other businesses, but it only embitters potential customers who will then refuse to buy the content even when it is inexpensively available. And adult movies only cost a fraction of what a hollywood movie costs to make and yet they're still more expensively priced.
For people in the know: Are the take-down notices still going out from these companies to the sites to have the illegal content removed? If so...are they done at the same time as the lawsuits are filed and / or IP numbers requested? (or before?) One big concern that I have regarding this new strategy is the potential for abuse and the lack of meaningful oversight. If the companies are really doing this from a moral high-ground perspective and trying to eliminate the piracy of their products (a laudable goal), then they should still be trying to get their stuff removed from the sites at the same time as (or prior to) threatening the lawsuits, sending the "bills", and offering the "pre-settlements". Otherwise, one might argue that they are just trying to milk the system for their own gain, as opposed to truly ending the piracy...(which I agree needs to be ended)... If the situation turns into one where the take-down notices are no longer sent, I fear that the moral high-ground (and a lot of respect) will be lost...b/c at that point, it's a "make-money" thing and not a "protect ourselves" thing...
Even though I'm not sure if those stealing the content are really "potential customers" or not, I do agree that hard-line approaches like this tend to embitter people -- even current customers who are not stealing. For instance, everything that I get is through legitimate means--and, over the past 16 years, I would probably be sick if I added up the thousands of dollars that I've spent on porn--but I do have to say that hearing about such a heavy-handed approach...and one that has a good deal of potential problems with it...makes me like the companies doing it a lot less. This is mitigated by the fact that it won't affect me...and it's a gut reaction...but it's still a real and undeniable one. It's a big part of the reason why I dislike Metallica so much at this point, as well. Hearing that they were suing "their fans"--even though I logically understood why and it had no way of affecting me--kicked off a gut reaction that made me think that they were a bunch of douche-bags, quite honestly. I'm trying hard not to get that way about this...but I would be lying if I were to say that the feeling wasn't creeping in just a bit...
