Further to my recent posts in the Max Hardcore and Alexa Rae thread I feel the need to make a confession (in a tail-between-my-legs type of way). I'm afraid I'm not such a big fan of Max anymore.
You see a couple of days ago I took delivery of a couple of Max Hardcore discs (I've just started ordering outside the UK recently and these were the first Max titles I'd purchased for ages) which I viewed soon after in anticipation. Until this point I hadn't seen any of Max's releases for a long time. Previous to this I had seen maybe 8 or 9 of Max's films (all seen around 1997). What with the situation regarding porn in the UK until a couple of years back what you could get hold of was often anyone's guess. It certainly wasn't easy to find Max's films, and you will not find them today in the UK licensed sex shops, despite the industry having been liberalised to a certain extent (Now now Struan....let's not start on that again ). Anyway, I managed to get hold of some back then - enjoyed them, traded them back in and that was that - having formed the impression "Wow, this guy is great". All I can say is this. His films are not the same as they used to be.
One of the titles that I bought - Max Faktor 11 - is so extreme in parts that I've actually forced myself to destroy it so I don't watch it again. Yes there were parts here and there which I enjoyed seeing, and I loved Max previously for what I perceived to be his anal porn excellence / dolly-girl themed movies. But this was something else. I've heard some say that the girls in his movies are acting, but certainly with girl number 3 in this flick I'm sure that this can't have been the case. In real tears in parts it was obviously too much for her and I hate to think of the mental mark it has probably left on her. Nobody deserves that Max. Also, girls giving head is one thing. But ramming your cock into their throats so that they have to suffer such obvious physical discomfort and unease? Hey Max, that's really not right dude.
I'm sorry to those of you who might have perceived me as an ally and will now see me as a traitor. I emailed Max through this forum. He was thoroughly polite and helpful to me in his emails (regarding titles etc.) and I thought "Hey now, you guys are being a bit unfair now" when I read the posts that were aggressive towards Max in the above-mentioned post. All I can say is, I think I've got an idea where these guys are coming from now Max. Yes, you've got the right to exercise freedom of speech with consenting adults. But two things are wrong here (certainly in the aforementioned film). Implied consent you may have, but actual consent (in reality)....I'm not so sure you always have that Max. Two of the girls in this film (especially the girl in the last scene) seemed shit-scared of you. I don't think they would have had it in them to tell you that they wanted to stop even if they wanted to. Second, yes porn is an aid to fantasy. And to those of us who can keep it in those confines, all good and well. The problem is that making the material that you're currently making might well, I think, influence your less-intelligent viewers in their outlook towards women and how they treat them. Maybe this doesn't matter to you Max, but I certainly got the impression from our brief email discussions that you had a human heart there somewhere, however darkened it may have become.
You've got my email address. Contact me if you want to discuss this further. I'll be happy to help if I can.
Sorry for rambling on guys, I've been feeling the need to 'own up' here and get this off my chest.
Hey - you could have mailed it to me instead! ;)OK - heres my personal perpective. A few years ago I joined Maxhardcore.com to see what all the fuss was about and, while I found a lot of the girls really hot in their teeny outfits, Max's attitude and actions in a lot of the clips left me feeling shellshock, sickened and dirty. Probably how you felt on watching that batch of DVDs. But. Just as porn moves on, so did my tastes, and gradually I realised I was enjoying Max's extreme scenes more and more - whether thats corruption or desensitisation I dont know. All I do know is that I've gone from being a one time Max hater to a Max Hardcore fan
ive noo idea what Max is like in real life, and I guess some shoot and some girls go different ways - but at the end of the day, no matter how disgusting or degrading the things that are being done to them, the girls only have to say "Stop", get up and walk away. Hell, thats what I'd do if someone was sexually abusing me against my will.
You might find another converts opinion interesting - I did:
I will also agree that Max has pushed the envelope so far it is crazy. I picked up a Max film recently and he has gotten even more extreme since the films I saw just two years ago. He is progressing just as the industry as a whole is getting more extreme with such things as anal creampies and the like. I don't think it is a bad thing just a "sign of the porno times".
Just imagine what you would think of the euro versions of Max's movies - contain lots of pissing and vomiting. The vomit is absolutely disgusting, but the pissing kind of turns me on...especially the few girls who really act into it.
Dude, you should have asked us for recommendations. The early Max Hardcore stuff (for example, the vid where he nails a fresh Tiffany Mynx) is the best stuff. Some of the stuff he shot in his early days in Europe is also good.
Let me first say, that if you have watched this video and at the end the girl was interviewed and said that she enjoyed herself, what would your opinion be then?
You have to understand a'lot of these porn performers enjoy sex, enjoy being dominated to the point of tears.. my god, why do you think some women like to be choked while having sex(in fact a'lot of women enjoy this)does this mean they wish to murdered, does this mean they are condoning others to kill or murder by chocking, of course not.
Many of these girls are pros at "getting their freak on," it's what they do it's what turns them on, and it's what turns on many of us.
Look at Kami, she had no problem with letting her beast out and submit to the freakiness, she enjoys it!
Are you going to tell Kami that she cant get throat fucked until she cries?
Are you going to tell me I can't watch Kami get throat fucked until she cries?
It's really that simple, sure some girls get in over their head, but do you honestly think Max does not go over in absolute detail what will be happening, and what is going to be done. I've been on a few porn sets, many of you crying foul have no idea what it's like, you're looking through a glass mirror at the illusions of what you perceive, all the while forgetting the whole point of why you rented the video in the first place, to get off, to fantasize, to live through the eye's of Max Hardcore.
I've seen many of Max's film, I've seen some girls cry (in more then a few you can hear max in the background giving them the cue to cry)Porn is not as fluid as you think, its a stop and go situation all the time.
Something tells me you didin't have this problem until after you "popped your load" why else would you destroy the tape, you liked it, and that scares you.
This is a problem with your guilt, not Max Hardcore!!
I've read Kami's remarks in previous posts. She quite clearly states that we (the viewers) are not there and don't know what is actually happening in reality; that Max goes over what is going to happen with the actresses in alot of detail beforehand. That he does I'm certainly not doubting. All I'm saying is that in the cases of girl 2, and certainly girl 3 in this film I don't think they were actually prepared for what they were going to have to go through. I believe (from memory) that girl no 3 would actually liked to have stop the shooting but that she was too scared to say so. Maybe I'm wrong here and this is all just very good acting. Maybe Kami and others really enjoy the scenes that they go through with Max. I'm happy for them if they do. Girls number 2 and 3 in this film to me clearly did not. If girl number 3 (who was clearly some kind of addict) did say anything condoning what was going on in this movie, in my opinion it was out of fear and not what she felt in reality.
Porn is enjoyable, and so it should be. Part of me enjoyed seeing bits of the film I've mentioned above. The other part of me felt parts of it were absolutely disgusting and that it therefore went beyond the pale of how how far porn should go. I don't feel guilty for having watched it or having enjoyed the parts that I did. As with life in general this was another learning experience from which I drew my own conclusions.
Yes, I did a search on the IAFD.com site and located this info myself. I quite clearly had forgotten this when I posted above (maybe I wanted to forget it / it didn't tally with my prespective on what I saw) It kind of turns what I've been saying right on its head wouldn't you say?
The important thing for me is that I've got this off my chest and said what I wanted to say. I for one very much doubt that I'll be purchasing any MH titles in the future as my own protest vote (not that it will necessary make any difference in the run of things). I certainly had been intending to purchase ALOT more Max titles until I saw this one. I can't reconcile my respect for my wife as a woman and other women with buying this type of stuff. Sorry.
Fair enough, you drew your line in the sand and don't wish to cross.
I don't understand the protest though, logically you have to understand that many of the videos you watched and enjoyed may have had a women who disliked or didn't want to be doing what she was doing, but she was a good enough actress not to show it. Therefore, is it okay to facilitate your orgasms just as long as your not intuned to the feelings of the performer, hence if you act well but don't like the sex, it's okay - you're not being disrespected, however if you're a bad actress, and don't like the sex, I'll boycott the manufacturer?
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Bandit One Deactivated User
No Place That Far 612 Posts 9/02
Posted - Mar 25 2005 : 3:07AM
I haven't seen any of his films, and don't want to. After reading a few reviews, I decided awhile back his stuff just wasn't for me. Just my opinion - his "work" is the ultimate in humiliation and desensitization, representing everything that's bad about the industry. It's also ridiculous that some believe that when female talent vomit or cry during a scene that it's quickly passed over as acting or a "perfomance"- I guess it makes them feel better about themselves when they look in the mirror. More disheartening than anything- some of the biggest production companies out there are inching ever closer, content-wise, to matching him.
"Man's got to know his limitations."- Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry in Magnum Force
Hi again VirginSurgeon. (Just a side-point here - it was yourself that I was mainly referring to when I was apologising for being somewhat traiterous by way of starting this thread.)I understand your point here, and it's a good one. All I can say is that what 'turned the tide' for me was the actual degree of portrayal in the film of the actresses' discomfort/unease. Whereas it seemed that they could handle the anal pretty well, the 'throat-fucking' seemed to me to be a different matter altogether. Again from memory, this seemed to be too much for them to handle, and I found it 'de-humanising' watching it. I don't remember seeing anything like it in the 'old' Max films that I saw some time ago. Rather the action, from memory, seemed to be very much focused on anal, and I don't remember seeing any of the signs of unease/discomfort in these films that I saw with regard to Max's 'throat-fucking' scenes with girls 2 and 3 in Faktor 11.
Sorry - I've got to sign off here and get on with other things, so forgive me if I don't reply to any further posts until later.
-Note mod- This is not an attack, I'll try and be as general as possible.
What astonishes me, is when people reach that level of porn/perversion/degradation/fantasy that they don't wish to cross, they say that's it, this is enough, I don't wish to engage this any further, and they don't.. However, there are those that cross that level, don't enjoy it, then stand on a peddle-stool condemning anyone who pass's said line, and make sweeping accusations that their level of perversion somehow correlates with the type of human beings we are, while I on my peddle-stool am safe from retribution since the porn actress I masturbated to last night *looked* like she enjoyed it.
This is pornography, it's not the Redcross, do you honestly think the girl who's anal close-up you where watching as she was being sodomized always enjoys it, or is sodomy safe, because you don't see the women's face, whereas, throat fucking you can see her face, acknowledge her existence see her as a feeling, living entity?!
Maybe you are more comfortable with not knowing the the degree of humiliation the performer is at, I am, don't need a mirror.. Sometimes people hide behind that mirror too!
Anyway, I love having discussions, and I know i'll get some hate mail from people who disagree with me, that being said I enjoyed everyone's opinions! Time for Bed.
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Bandit One Deactivated User
No Place That Far 612 Posts 9/02
Posted - Mar 25 2005 : 4:55AM
Some people shit in their hand, throw it against the wall and call it art. What's worse, some pay good money for that "art."
there was a documentary screened in the UK several years ago about a young mother who went to america to become a porn actress. guess who gave her her first job? yep max of course. it was quite clear from the documentary film that she had absolutely no idea what she was letting herself in for. max reduced her to tears in a matter of minutes, she ran out the room crying, max went and found her and basically verbally abused her in an extremely aggressive manner, telling her to stop wasting his time etc. it was quite clear she was frightened of him. afterwards she decided she didnt want to be a porn star anymore.
I like his house. I'm planning my memorial service there. Hope Max agrees, and that the Danny Devito, et. al. gangbang of Alexa Rae (shot by none other than Skeeter Kerkove) goes through.
Once upon a time, a woman was picking up firewood. She came upon a poisonous snake frozen in the snow. She took the snake home and nursed it back to health. One day the snake bit her on the cheek. As she lay dying, she asked the snake, "Why have you done this to me?" And the snake answered, "Look, bitch, you knew I was a snake."
No, you're quite right VirginSurgeon. Girls doing anal in porn might well not be enjoying it (I'm sure there are quite a few that are as well). But most of the time they look a lot more comfortable doing it than those two girls I was referring to in Faktor 11 did with the 'throat-fucking' and consequent results.It was the US version Ramsey. I specifically ordered these titles from the US because I had heard what was contained in the Euro versions and did not want to see the pissing/puking. No - it was purely the anal action that I very much expected, and was after.A little bit unfair I feel, cobalt60! Max's films have obviously stepped up a gear (maybe a few more than that) during the interim period. I never saw anything like the gagging/puking I saw in Faktor 11 in the films I watched that Max made in the 90s. Wish I could remember their titles - the only one that sticks in my head is "Max in Munich" which I thought was an excellent film. The Max films I knew/watched back then and Faktor 11 that I watched recently were two very different cups of tea as far as I'm concerned.
Edited by - Another porn addict on 3/25/2005 10:32:36 AM
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Frederic Chopin Deactivated User
16 Posts 3/05
Posted - Mar 25 2005 : 11:10AM
The hook in Hardcore's films are those moments where the girls seem over-their-heads and are surprised by what's happening. Certainly they can say "No" and walk away, but consider the immediate, high-pressure atmosphere of this decision making arena. What Hardcore sells is vicarious sexual assault without the legal difficulties. A blind man on a galloping horse listening to the throatfucking gagging in his videos would realize this. Of course, this is only my opinion and I offer it in the hopes of stimulating discussion in which we can all possibly learn something, not to denigrate or discredit anyone else's opinion.
Apa, the snake story was mere whimsy on my part, not a character assassination. I haven't seen what you describe; my last Steiner indulgence was Planet Max 2 , the first two scenes of which I enjoyed (muted).
Max is an excellent capitalist (or opportunist, whichever you prefer) and has merely changed with the times.
Your statement can and should serve as a public service announcement to those who may not be familiar with his recent work.
I don't see the point of this. An English woman -probably a single mother with few income possibilities- coming to the US to shoot porn, now that's a problem. But it isn't Max's problem. Even if Max were to go away tomorrow, there would still be the problem of unemployed girls with no skills.
At any rate, what do girls THINK is going to happen on a porn set in general, or on Max's set in particular? Do they think they're going to be wined and dined like super models at a Paris fashion show?
As for Max, I assume that what he does with the girls is consensual sex. If it isn't, it's a matter of criminal investigation, not a matter of morals.
Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99
Posted - Mar 25 2005 : 1:03PM
I have to agree with this.
When the critics of capitalism discussed the inherent exploitation of the system they were talking about Max Hardcore. I'm sure he's proud of that judging by his statement:
Consent is not as black and white an issue as so many people involved in porn would like to believe. No one said having a conscience is easy.
Very interesting post for me. I hadn't appreciated this 'hook' that you referred to. Maybe because it doesn't flick my switch or maybe because I'm too dumb to pick up on it! The situation that asseater was referring to went like this, if I can remember correctly from reading an earlier post on the matter. An English woman went over to the US with the aim/intention of being a porn actress. She hooked up with some agent, who introduced her to Max. She consented (blindly?) to do a shoot with Max. Half way through it or whatever she decides she wants out. Max says something like "But you agreed". The situation ends up with the camera crew believing that what they are about to film amounts to rape, remove the woman from Max's house and take her back to her hotel.Thanks for this cobalt60. Likewise and definitelyI thought that this was going to happen! I've probably unintentionally done someone a favour in inadvertently promoting this title. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this Ramsey. Go straight to the 3rd scene with Jessie to see what I'm really talking about. You might feel/see it differently of course.
Yeah, Max should at least thank you for promoting this movie ;-)I can already tell you I won't be shocked, I have already seen too much extreme porn for this, porn that make Max look like a boy scout.
Sounds like you're in a different league Ramsey. Someone else's post said that Max's stuff was nothing in comparison to some of the stuff produced in Asia and Europe. All I can say is that I haven't seen the type of stuff whoever posted this comment was alluding to.
Have you enjoyed any of the stuff that makes Max's stuff look tame to you?
I asked the question months ago about how much of the Max stuff is acting vs. real pain/discomfort for the females in his scenes. My guess is that with a majority of the girls it is an act. There may be some that are complete newbies to the business that land on a Max set that may get in over their head. As far as the pissing, vomiting, etc. you can find those type of films in Germany, Japan, Brazil and other countries. Just check some of the newsgroups. Thankfully he has not moved on to scat films, at least not yet.
Well some of the stuff from the Kit Kat Club for example goes way beyond what Max puts out in my opinion. I won't even mention some of the movies they put out here in the name of......enjoying pain.Not sure enjoy is the right word, more like kind of interesting. I also not always enjoy Max's movies because I hate it when the girls wear shoes and socks and also Max most of the time goes for the very skinny girls while I'm more into flesh istead of bones.
I know many people hate Max and his work but they can't deny he's one of the most copied director out there. I mean he was shooting these gapes way before anyone else, like back in 1992. I wish somebody would release his Ass Master movies on DVD from back then. Those were fantastic.
Ramsey - sorry to take this off topic a bit but was wondering about your opinion on something.
Do you think that we should 'live and let live' with regard to what is allowed in terms of what is released on the mainstream adult market (eg. in shops/by mail order). Or do you think that there are certain limits (eg. regarding some of the harder non-Max material that you've seen) beyond which films for general release should not be allowed to go? From the sound of it you've obviously seen some pretty heavy stuff so I'd find your opinion interesting here.
I guess I've never seen anything that I'd classify as being 'too heavy' until I saw Faktor 11. Incidentally, from memory Max's scene with girl 1 in the film is quite tame. The scene with girl 2 was where the film began to get a bit heavy for me. I thought that Max's scene with girl 3 was just beyond the pale. It just did not look like acting to me (her tears/discomfort/bad state she was eventually left in looked very real to me). But what I don't get is that she DID ANOTHER FILM WITH HIM!!!
After or before Faktor 11? IAFD says both were released in 2004 so unfortunately I can't hypothesize that she decided that she'd had enough after Faktor 11. Certainly, these are the only two films that she is listed as starring in under that screen name. Maybe she was just so desperate for the money, or maybe this is all just very, very good acting.
Whatever the case, I don't think it's right to portray scenes such as these where the actresses appear to be in extreme discomfort and unhappy with the situation that is happening - regardless of whether it is real or fictitious. Such scenes in my opinion ARE degrading to women, are dehumanizing to watch, and could quite possibly (in my opinion) influence some viewers in their treatment of women.
Don't get me wrong. I love porn, like most people around here. I just think that maybe it's up to us as viewers/purchasers (and more importantly producers) to exercise some form of general restraint as to where porn is going so that we can preserve our freedoms in this area. If we don't then maybe other hostile parties might well try to curb the pornographic freedom that we currently have still further if generally-released porn doesn't stop becoming more and more extreme (and degrading). I reckon we've somehow got to learn how to stop 'looking for more and more' and somehow learn to be satisfied with what we've got. Maybe this should involve more creativity in porn rather than forever trying to push the limits further and further. Don't ask me what this should entail - it's only an idea!
(NB Just wonder if producers like Max are not really that worried about such things....that it is more a case of "Let's make those bucks while we can" and "If I don't do this, someone else will")
PS Sorry if I'm boring you everyone! I've once again enjoyed writing this all down though!
The man speaketh the truth. Some of the stuff you can see in Brazilian, German, Japanese videos would make -what's that line in The Smith's song? - "Caligula blush."
I like some of Max's movies and I don't think anyone who does needs to make apologies because of it. I personally dislike his newer stuff (the lipstick smeared and barbie doll dildo). But there are times where some good hard M+/F submissive porn is a turn on.
I don't care at all for the throw up, but the piss is not offensive. But those things are only in the Euro versions anyways so it's a moot point.
Unfortunately, I kinda feel like Max's stuff is a little tired. The only thing left for him to do is to shit on the girls, and the market for that is probably much more limited than even the throw up. It might be time to bring in some new blood (talent) to take over the reins. Possibly a new series. Back in the day (early/mid 90's), a gaping asshole was totally new. Anal and DPs we not common. So any fan of anal needs to tip their cap to Max and give him that credit. His newer titles are just his evolution into new kinks. It would be safe to say that the older we all get, the kinkier and more experimental we get.
But I would think that die hard Max fans would balk at Max having someone new do the grunt work. Max's persona and familiarity might be what some of them like.
Max, if you read this, think about getting someone to shoot a new line for you. There are plenty of young bucks like Dirty Danza, etc, that might be down. Just a suggestion. I think it would help.
The other thing to add is that the most offensive thing about Max's movies is when you pop it in and there's only 3 scenes!!!!! I know he pays well for the girls, but another scene would go a long way. Shit, a bonus scene on from one of the old, slow selling volumes would be nice.
the problem with limits is. Whos limits? Some people would say anything up to the strength of Max Faktor #11 is fine. Another person might say nothing beyond Playboy should be alllowed.
I know that this wasn't asked of me. But I say "live and let live" (as long as no crimes are being committed as part of the making of the movie (rape, assault, etc)). Let the market decide what does and doesn't exist.
I would be happy if Max went out of business because nobody would buy his DVD's or nobody was willing to work for him. But, unless either of those things happen, he should be permitted to make his movies.
I personally don't mind the hat. It's nice to have some personality for a change. And he can't give it up now. The hat is firmly entrenched in the legend of Max.
The only Max title i have in my collection is Max Faktor 7, and i only picked that up cause it has Roxy Jezel in the third scene.. shes hot as hell, and she got demolished! it was the roughest scene out of the four, and Roxy looked very uncomfortable!
the problem with max is not the roughness, that doesn't bother me, its the quality of the porn, and i prefer most others to his.. i've seen seen other titles of his, and there seems to be like one out of three or four scenes that are any good
Trailers for all my recent movies, most all of them Euro versions, including Golden Guzzlers, can be found on my website at http://www.maxhardcore.com/index3.html. See them all and make up your own mind. In my opinion, it's way better than the German stuff. I piss with a hard rod several times while boning the babe without missing a beat.
And to answer a comment I saw a couple of times, that I'm just doing it for the money. No so folks. I do it because I enjoy it. And fortunately, it makes me a lot of money. But I'd do it anyway, even if there weren't that many people who want to see it.
Hey - I used to have a 'hat problem' as well. I never took the damned thing off from the time I got up in the morning till the last thing at night (except in the shower of course!). I even used to have sex with the damned thing on, just like someone else around here does sometimes!
PS Glad that you had a chance to read this thread Max. If there's one thing that I would have appreciated hearing from you it would have been the truth about the scene with Jessie in Faktor 11. Was it just an act? Or was it real?
