Without making a huge production about it, would someone be able to identify which studios and/or pay sites from whch I can purchase content without supporting Mindgeek? I view this as I might an election, every vote, or purchase in this case, counts. Thanks to the true artists who create something in this world. Your work will be rewarded.
Naughty America and Bangbros for your general Brazzers alternatives. There's a ton of DVD companies that aren't affiliated with Mindgeek in any way (Hard/Erotica X, Evil Angel, Jules Jordan, etc.). I don't think Mindgeek actually has a European site (they have producers over there, but they all shoot for the North American sites that Mindgeek owns), so any Euro site you see should be fine.
Basically just avoid brazzers.com realitykings.com digitalplayground.com mofos.com twistys.com babes.com Erito Wicked Picures (I don't think brazzers owns them but rather just manages their online stuff) Playboy (same as Wicked) and a ton of tube sites. Mindgeek owns a lot of sites but they are not as massive and all encompassing as some believe then to be. Until I looked it up a month or so ago, I was under the impression they owned almost everything. I think that perception is pretty common and probably hurts a lot of studios, as many hear about mindgeek owning all the tubesites and think it's okay to steal shit from all studios because they think they are owned by the same company. Edited by - Jackie Treehorn on 2/1/2015 7:11:41 PM
Thanks for the information. I feel it is important to support the companies most likely to keep quality and intensity at a high level. While it is a commodity, we know when we're being handed fast food instead of a thoughtful, hand crafted entrée... whatever that means, lol.
Jackie's list is probably the most accurate so I won't add anything else to it but let me play devils advocate. You do realise that when you choose not to join a Mindgeek owned site. You aren't hurting just Mindgeek but every performer, director and anybody else that works for them. I know it sucks to give money to the people fucking up the industry but I do it because otherwise many people making a living in the porn industry need those Mindgeek jobs.
^ well, one could also say choosing some of the alternatives over Mindgeek would give these alternatives the financial means to be able to support those jobs not anymore viable at Mindgeek. If there's x amount to be spent and this x amount pays for cast and crew, then spending the same amount not at Mindgeek would support the same amount of talent (ideally). Simply saying "I download without paying because Mindgeek are the evil ones" on the other hand doesn't help anybody, as the alternatives do not profit from that behavior either.
^ Exactly. You may be hurting the directors and crew at Mindgeek (who, from what we've heard from the inside, aren't really that valued anyway), but as long as we continue to spend that money on porn in other places, those other places will then have the money to be able to spend it on the performers that Mindgeek uses, so they don't end up being hurt much at all. And maybe the amount of money not being spent a Mindgeek even allows a new company to come into the industry and get a stronghold that doesn't have the same ethical and/or moral dilemmas behind them that Mindgeek does. Edited by - whatsatelephonebill on 2/1/2015 8:26:44 PM
They are listed as being owned by SSC Group. Same studio that owns Tiny 4K, Casting Couch X http://www.thebestporn.com/review_company.html?id=2085 Edited by - Jackie Treehorn on 2/2/2015 12:22:40 AM
[Link]
JackSparrow Deactivated User
7235 Posts 7/11
Posted - Feb 2 2015 : 12:43AM
pretty sure Mindgeek owns a bit of that Group aswell.maybe not full but somehow they are connected.
^ What makes you say that? I ask because I've never heard this before, and I know as of a few years ago they didn't. And if there's one thing I'm fairly sure of, it is that if Mindgeek buys a company, they're going to let you know about it.
I don't disagree with you but which alternative sites are you thinking about to replace those Mindgeek owned sites? I mean how many sites currently on the net update with multiple updates per week. Brazzer currently adds about 14 new videos per week Reality Kings adds the same number so about 14 new videos per week. Twisty's adds one new video and one new photoset per day so you technically can get as many as 14 updates per week. Mofo's seems to add about a dozen new videos per week. If I count the updates of those four sites than I get a total of 55 jobs that a porn performer was paid for and this is repeated every week. If I go further that means that Mindgeek offered more than 2800 jobs to performers in one year. The biggest competitor to Brazzer and RK are Naughty America and BangBros. I have no problem if someone decides to offer their Mindgeek money to those sites but I don't think that it will mean that BangBros will add five new scenes per day. I mean they currently add one new scene per day so they would have to add four more scenes to take up the slack. NA adds about 13 scenes per week but I don't think more money will mean that they will want to add 17 new scenes to take up the slack. The harsh reality is that Mindgeek is now a far too big player to boycot without hurting the very same people we all want to help.
^ To use Naughty as an example, they may not add 17 more scenes to their main site, but maybe they add a scene or two a week to Tonight's Girlfriend. Or maybe they start a few more sites like they've been doing over the past few years. Same with Bangbros. And maybe those sites grow to be their own network like Mofos.
^Here is why your ides won't work. 1-Tonight's Girlfriend will never be a major player because very few people want to join streaming only sites. Especially one that is owned by a company that allows download of their other content. 2-Starting a new site is not a wise decision because people are already picking and choosing which site to join so a new site will only mean that the money that could have gone to NA ort BangBros is going to go to the new site and you are back in the same place for those sites. 3-You can't get a new network because there is just too little porn being made to allow anyone the opportunity to have enough content to justify having a network. Edited by - pat362 on 2/2/2015 12:30:03 PM
I also avoid MindGeek/Manwin sites as I don't approve of them also owning many of the major tube sites where they steal content from all of the other companies and let people watch it for free (which has neutered most of the industry by reducing their revenue and profits, some say by up to 70%). Fortunately there is still a wealth of content you can buy and watch legitimately (that may not be true in a couple of years if people keep watching tube sites instead of paying for movies). From Kink.com (Peter Acworth owned) and Intersec (PD owned) to Vivid (Steve Hirsch owned), Immoral ("Porno" Dan Leal owned) and Hustler (along with the other Larry Flynt owned companies) and small companies such as Got Cuffs (and his other two sites, one featuring sex scenes while the other two are strictly bondage) and the Clips4Sale mini-sites (featuring the personal productions of many medium to high-profile performers, Veruca James comes to mind but there are at least 20 other medium to high profile performers selling on C4S) there is something to peak almost any adult interest. Several performers that don't use Clips4Sale have their own sites such as James Deen. Of course if you like bukkake scenes Mike South's sites will interest you (he also has a gangbang site but that isn't quite the niche product that the bukkakes are as there are several gangbang sites but Mike is the only guy I know of with a site dedicated to bukkake scenes). Vicky Vette has about ten performers producing for her site (VNA) as well. Lastly, from what I hear and read MindGeek sites do not provide good quality content anyway. They run their "legitimate" sites in such a manner that they cannot keep people directing and performing for them, for example they have driven off all of the contract performers at Digital Playground and went through at least two directors at Brazzers. They also got caught rigging the annual best performer contest at Twisty's, driving off many of their customers of that site (and causing a director there to quit as well). Worse yet, they treat their rank and file employees such as editors and administrative staff like dirt and have an extremely high turnover rate because of that.
Why did bangbros and reality kings swap their studs ???? lol jmac has become a regular performer for bang and criss strokes has left bang for reality kings ?? whats the story behind this ? i heard voodoo will return back to rk and will work with greg lansky . so guess that pure 18 will be back . criss strokes man too many scenes he ruined .
It sounds like Mindgeek does not have a solid set-up considering what's been said about their staff. Hopefully they ultimately self-destruct. It sounds like if they continue to get away with giving shit away for free they will continue to have scads of business. Lots of people will consume bullshit if it's cheap or next to free.... which is why the McDonald's analogy is so appropriate. We are a vast minority, those that truly enjoy the culture of this aspect of the sex industry. It makes me mad that talent and genuine adult producers suffer from this type of rampant usury. Given it's adult, not many government agencies will likely step in on their behalf. I can't focus on the negative anymore. Thanks to everyone for helping me learn something new about this situation.
You've nailed it. It isn't that MindGeek controls everything, it's just that they are making the the most money. (And destroying, or at least hurting, money streams for others.) The genius of MindGeek (and Manwin before it) -Fabian Thylmann-, sold the company a year ago October. His innovative (and some would say scorched earth) style hasn't been "improved upon". I guess we can be thankful for that...
1.) Allowing downloads on Tonight's Girlfriend is literally just a flip of a switch. The code to do it is actually already in the page, it's just hidden. They haven't done it because apparently the site is doing well enough that they don't need to (it's been around for 3+ years at this point, and has never officially allowed downloads). 2.) I would argue that the hardest part about starting a new site right now is getting your name out there to the people that are actually willing to pay for porn. The leg up that a major network has when starting a new site is that they can advertise for it on their main site, which is already a large group of people that have shown themselves willing to pay to join a porn site. If the site is good enough, that can be enough to sustain it in the early going while your advertising/promotion reaches out across the internet and gains a foothold. 3.) There are companies that have started new networks in the past few years, and there are going to be companies that do so in the next few as well. Not every network has to start out at 10-13 scenes a week. I know for sure that Mofos didn't, for example. Again, to use NA as an example, they could take Tonight's Girlfriend (which has over 200 scenes at this point), join it with some of their other stand-alone sites that they stopped updating (about 50-75 scenes), and add in a couple new sites, and right there you have a network with 250-300 scenes and adding 2-3 scenes a week. While no, that's not enough to become a major player overnight, that's enough to get started and see if you can grow things. I'm not necessarily saying this is what's going to happen, but it's definitely within the realm of possibility, especially if we're following the original idea that the money that currently goes to Mindgeek starts going to other sites instead.
In fairness to them, most studios go through these sort of changes over time. The quality seems the same as before to me. Digital Playground are still putting out glossy features with higher budgets than most porn movies. If they really did cut the budgeting way down, then maybe a lot of money was simply being wasted before, because their movies don't look any cheaper. I do have a Reality Kings sub that I get for $10 a month, and I feel the quality is pretty good for the most part. I agree that their business practices are pretty damn shady and understand refusing to support it, but never the less I do think the content is still solid. I don't care for DP's features but I didn't like the style of their content all that much before Mindgeek took over.
[Link]
Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Feb 2 2015 : 11:29PM
Sorry, but while I despise Mindgeek's practices, I'm not going to boycott their stuff that I really like. In my case, I'm not willing to restrict myself from RK's Teens Love Huge Cocks and Brazzers' Teens Like It Big content that I really like. As far as I'm concerned, I'm doing my part by not frequenting the tube sites that are the main problem; I pay for RK and Brazzers memberships just as I do memberships (and DVDs) for HardX, Jules Jordan Video, etc.
^ The tube site money and the Brazzers money all goes to the same place. As a matter of fact, a few years ago there was an article that came out where it flat out stated that Manwin/Mindgeek made more of a profit off their tube sites than they did off of their paid sites. You may not like the idea that you can't support one without implicitly supporting the other, but it's the truth.
Trademarks Mindgeek owns. Jackies list is far from complete, they are really hard to avoid as they also run websites like FakeTaxi without owning them fully. Jacco
I would avoid Mile High (Hard X, Erotica X, Sweetheart, etc.) and Mindgeek for the same reason: sneaky billing. If there is an exceptional video, I can probably get it on dvd from another vendor.
Free porn is akin to free beer. Both get plenty of takers. Kind of surprised no one has mentioned what makes these tube sites so successful. First, because of their popularity, they attract advertisers which pay the freight. Who's gonna stop that? A few guys getting righteous & telling us they won't visit the tube sites? Second, they mine the free info the tube users provide via clicking their preferences thus telling them what's popular & what we want to see more of & perhaps eventually pay to see. It's capitalism at its core, warts & all. Is this changing the face of porn & how it's delivered? Sure. Is it destroying porn? Hardly. Porn, like all industries, is ever evolving & the winners (survivors) are the ones that can adapt & are open to changing with the times... Edited by - boozer on 2/3/2015 11:28:42 AM
I don't give a shit who owns what. If the porn is good I will pay and join. The thing that bothers me the most is a site like Tonight's Girlfriend not allowing downloads. I had no idea that was the case with them. It also makes zero fuckin' sense. They are a Naughty America site aren't they? You can download on Naughty America, why not on Tonight's Girlfriend? It's ridiculous. I will never pay to be a member of a streaming only site. It's a complete ripoff. They are 100% on my shit list now.
ADT Chatroom Survivor, Large Breast Connoisseur 176 Posts 8/08
Posted - Feb 3 2015 : 11:13AM
Right now I have Brazzers and BangBros accounts. Those give me enough variety and scenes with the porn girls I like and generally gets in new girls I find attractive. I've seen production go up and down with both, sometimes during the course of a week, but for the most part, I'm happy with both. Brazzers occasionally does try to do some higher quality content with scenes that add up to basically an entire themed movie (they did a whole Dr Who parody not too long ago), and they get enough firsts and other things to keep me interested. BangBros seems just a little more... raw, but I get fascinated by Public Bang scenes now. I'm a fan of a couple of girls who have individual pay sites I've considered joining. It's just difficult for me to justify the monthly cost; I picked up both the above subs for ~$10.00/month each, while any individual performer site can run ~$25-$30 bucks a month, and they sometimes have limited site networks, or none at all. So I end up buying the occasional blu-ray and clips4sale scene instead. I think the price point for an individual performer site for me would be between $10 to $15 a month. Granted, given the economics of content production and hosting, I'm not sure if a smaller site can hit that and be profitable. Oh yeah, Brazzers also just brought back Madison Scott and Shawna Lenee, so I'm not leaving them anytime soon.
[Link]
Mass Facialties Deactivated User
"Facialized Vol. 7" 2021 AVN Awards Winner: Best Oral Movie 9308 Posts 9/13
Posted - Feb 3 2015 : 3:17PM
I know that, but again, my main point was that I'm not going to deprive myself of content I really enjoy in an act of protest, when doing so wouldn't make any difference, whatsoever.
Yes. And the porn industry is often the leader of business trends as opposed to being a follower. The times they are (still) a-changin'. And you better start swimmin’ or you’ll sink like a stone.
I think everyone is so angry about the tube situation that they miss what Brazzers does right. While there's a lot of complaining about how they do business there are a lot of areas where the studios could up their game. Waiting for an answer to the piracy problem or hoping that a settlement is going to arrive in the mailbox is wasting their time while the ground is shifting under their feet. -Here's what Brazzers is doing well- Upcoming scenes: They update the upcoming scenes nearly everyday and usually there's 8 - 16 scenes in the queue. In my experience most other sites either don't update this section regularly or provide trailers or photos or just don't seem to care. (Zero Tolerance, for example) Good value: 2 updates a day + a huge catalog of HD scenes. Sure, not all the updates are great (or even good at this point) but the catalog is large and varied. For a month of Brazzers you get 60 new scenes and a catalog that has tons of Jayden Jaymes, Phoenix Marie, Asa Akira, Kagney Linn Karter, Kendra Lust, etc. You can be critical of them (I'm quite often critical of them) but you can't ignore the value that they offer especially to someone who isn't a discerning fan and has just a few bucks to spend on porn. They're building a site that is intended to collect the first casual 10 dollars available, the rest of the studios can fight for what's left over. Presentation: Here's one aspect that is less talked about but I think is critical in how they operate. Brazzers is always presented within the bounds of traditional porn. They seem to try to keep it light with jokes, parodies, comedy etc. I think the casual dollar is more easily spent here because its not presented as being "deviant". Even though its a hardcore site with lots of the same material.
[Link]
fredgee Deactivated User
350 Posts 12/13
Posted - Mar 20 2015 : 2:41PM
Consumers have to stop one company from thinking for the industry...there are enough porn consumers out there to change it they just have to make up their minds and do it. women who look like this should be working everyday one company shouldn't decide what everyone sees.
What a strange and illogical argument. $20 spent by a porn consumer at Not-Mindgeek provides - at a minimum - exactly the same amount of "industry support" as $20 spent at Mindgeek does, unless you believe that Mindgeek is somehow spending a greater share of its revenues on production than everybody else does and pocketing less in profits. (And wouldn't that be an ironic claim to make in this thread.) Edited by - shalalin on 3/20/2015 6:33:20 PM
Does anyone else think it's kind of strange for performers to tweet #PayForYourPorn #Pay4YourPorn and never mention the pernicious role of MindGeek? The onus is put on fans not to consume stuff posted on tubesites and nary a word is said about the company that's responsible for stealing content and putting it on the tubesites in the first place. I agree of course that people shouldn't browse tubesites but it seems a little hypocritical to rally around the hashtag and then cash a check from the company that profits the most from piracy. Are there any performers who have taken a principled stand against MindGeek for their piracy?
in porno there are no principles. there are paychecks however and the family of MG sites currently dole out the majority of them to performers thesedays. the only thing ANYONE in porno cares about is if the phone is ringing and that the 'career' continues. nobody cares Mr F., it's one big sea of pirate ships looting for themselves until they sink to the bottom. and, that's showbiz. lates, von S.
I understand why performers will perform in scenes for Manwin/MindGeek. The extra two or three scenes a hot girl might get from them each month could make the difference between just paying the bills and being able to invest in their future. It could even make the difference between being homeless and having a roof over her head in an extreme case (say a performer based in the SF Bay area where rents start at $2500 a month, the sales tax rate is about 8.5% and it costs $200 a month extra to have a parking spot for your car). Each scene for a girl is about $1000 before paying her agent and taxes (about $550 or so after those expenses). Living in SF/Marin in a run of the mill apartment, one car (gas, oil, insurance, parking), utilities (water and sewer are outrageous as well), food, etc. would cost her about $5500-$6000 a month. At $550 net per scene that is 11 days she must work to break even. Yes, LA is cheaper (you can lop about $1500 per month off of my SF estimate) but who in the fuck wants to live in that shit hole, especially when the production companies will pay airfare and hotel for talent to commute when needed for work. It is also very possible that 5 or 6 of those 11 scenes are for Kink or Intersec which are based in SF/Oakland which would make living in that hellhole they call LA completely asinine. If someone is lucky she can find a roommate that is responsible and easy to live to split housing expenses with but don't depend on it, that is for damn sure! For male performers the situation is more dire. Males tend to make about $600 per scene and represent themselves. After taxes he may net $400 or so. At $5500 a month for living expenses he has to work 14 days just to pay the bills. There are only 20-22 work days in a month. Obviously someone like James Deen who can single-handedly drive sales of a scene makes more but I can count on one hand the number of men in porn that can do that -- and he produces most of his scenes himself nowadays anyway, when he started out he was also an editor for hire which increased his income drastically then as well (I am surprised that he still lives in LA as most of his for-hire scenes are for Kink which is in SF, he could make his own movies anywhere in the state). Those that haven't ever worked as a day laborer would note that performers don't have to work M-F every week. However, there isn't always enough work for a performer to work M-F on a regular basis in porn. Unless a director works for Kink or Intersec there isn't always enough work for a regular M-F work week for them, let alone performers. Maybe MindGeek employs their directors full-time (I really don't know -- they are large enough to do so) but the damage they have done to the adult film industry more than overrides the amount of work they provide their directors, grips, cameramen, etc. IMO.
^ I know that Brazzers employs their directors full time, and I'm pretty sure that Digital Playground does as well. I also know that Mofos doesn't. The rest I don't know. And as far as living situations, you're also seeing the third option pop up of living in Las Vegas and shooting occasionally there (Naughty America, Brazzers and I think PornPros produce most of their scenes there, in addition to some other smaller companies), while flying/traveling to both LA and SF. And you don't necessarily have to live in LA so much as live in a place where you can drive to LA in a few hours if you get booked for a scene. There's a decent amount of performers that live closer to San Diego than they do LA, for example. Edited by - whatsatelephonebill on 6/18/2015 9:51:02 PM
Hulk Hogan's suit against Gawker could have consequences for tubesites. Consent of people in a video could be the route to shutting down tubesites, and then the Mindgeek empire starts a rapid slide back to narrow profit margins, if Hogan wins the suit.
Stoya has been very outspoken. Kayden Kross deferred to Stoya when the topic came up. Others are working with TrenchcoatX, which Stoya sees as a kind of United Artists.
I am not familiar with San Diego other than I know it is almost on top of the Mexican border, therefore I cannot comment on that. Regarding Las Vegas, Kink has opened up a small studio and office there in preparation for an eventual move due to Weinstein's war against the industry. Peter (owner of Kink) has decided that it would be better to move out of California rather than continue to deal with Weinstein's war against him using the California Legislature, the CA Judiciary and OSHA (and lots of AHF money for bribes and legal expenses). Woodrocket has a larger studio that they both use themselves and rent to other production companies there as well, my understanding is most of their scenes are now filmed in that studio. In five years if Weinstein has his way most of the industry will be in Vegas or Miami and performers will no longer have to deal with LA and its inconveniences (and most of the town being a literal shithole). Personally if I were a porn performer/staff I would rather live in Marin than Vegas but unfortunately Weinstein has made the decision as to where porn performers/staff can film profitably and it isn't going to be in California.
I wonder if browsers extensions (Firefox, Opera, Chrome...) like Ad Block Plus, and Flash blockers (audio/video plugins) will have any impact on tube sites revenues. Since almost every site have ad that just pop up or activate themselves I see a trend in people adding these extensions to their browsers.
[Link]
fredgee Deactivated User
350 Posts 12/13
Posted - Jun 19 2015 : 9:01PM
Making tube sites pay for content would be one way of leveling the playing field. They need the content so they should pay for it that would mean changing how dvds are made and sold. Really tube sales should be factored into the bottom line before a dvd is even made.
For the most part, the only performers that refuse to work for Mindgeek don't really do it because of piracy, they do it because they've been burned by Mindgeek on a personal level. Stoya and Kayden fit that bill as former Digital Playground contract girls. Shawna Lenee is another one that refuses to work with them after they screwed her over on her Brazzers contract. There used to be some performers that primarily shot for their own websites that wouldn't work with them (I think I remember Deauxma being one), but that's generally gone by the wayside as work has dried up. Like Tim said, most of the women in porn get little enough work that they'll take what they can get, and cutting Mindgeek out of that equation takes away too many work opportunities for them to seriously consider it, even though they know they should.
Avoiding Mindgeek is somewhat automatic for me, since the influence of the corporate overlords contaminates the studios and sites they buy and porn they shoot.
Thanks for the link.Given my tastes, and the sheer volume of porn available, I have little problem avoiding Mindgeek. HardX/EroticaX makes (to my mind) the best porn on the market, and the industry has a huge back catalogue.
[Link]
fredgee Deactivated User
350 Posts 12/13
Posted - Jun 21 2015 : 11:02AM
Boycott would send a strong message but it would have to be organized and kept going long enough to make it work. That would be a problem because their customers need a porn fix on a daily basis. What is needed is a person already in the industry, with connections to talent, distribution and production. Then that person can produce made to order content and make tube sites pay for using it.
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV 911 Posts 4/06
Posted - Jun 21 2015 : 11:21AM
^ Yes, I'm sure if the studios would just ask nicely, all of the tube sites would be happy to fork over a bunch of their ad revenue. I'm surprised no one in the industry has thought of that before. :facepalm:
[Link]
fredgee Deactivated User
350 Posts 12/13
Posted - Jun 21 2015 : 11:33AM
^ Some studio's content never shows up on tube sites. So if keeping content off tube sites was part of a company's business plan it could be done and sites would be forced to pay if they wanted it.
A court could make them do it, and I'd like to know if any of the studios with their work appearing on the tube sites have sued Mindgeek for infringement (and if not why not). Even if it's tubesite users instead of Mindgeek itself actually posting the non-Mindgeek-studios' copyrighted material to the tubesites, I'd think the studios could still claim contributory or induced infringement.
Interview, The (All Her Luv) - review by Danielmayu33216
Posted - Feb 1 2015 : 6:31PM
