I eagerly await your explanation!

-T.C.

[Link]

donjuan you might be surprised what turns women on.

From the introduction;

Until now, until this generation, there has been in the conventional view no such thing as feminine lust. Locker room wisdom - as well as consultation rooms of many psychiatrists- said that only men were capable of seperating sex from emotion; women could only enjoy sex if presented to them within the context of an ongoing, emotional relationship. These women (the contributors of fantasies to the book)of every age and socioeconomic class say otherwise; their favourite erotic scenario is not about their husbands or lovers but about a man they will never see again, someone with whom there is no relationship.

[Link]

I'm not saying women are sexless.They probably have a greater capacity for sexual pleasure than men.But that quote
above can't possibly be true of most women because such a
sexual psychology couldn't possibly have been favored by
selection in the environment in which humans evolved.You
only have to go into a book store to see the results of that
history for your self.Do Friday's kinds of books compete
successfully with Harlequin style paper backs in attracting
female buyers?

Tony C,I would have to see that study to really comment on it.

[Link]

The modern study of sexuality looks beyond biology and reproductive evolution alone.

Contemporary Perspectives and Concerns About Anthropology, Sex, and Culture.

Humboldt University Berlin. Anthroplogy. Influence Of Culture On Sex.

"The original themes that guided anthropological research on human sexuality have not changed. Holism, the use of the concept of culture to establish the meaning of unfamiliar customs and beliefs, and an emphasis on documenting and explaining diversity are still with us.

However, the conceptualization of human sexuality has changed over the last 100 years as the life, social, and behavioral sciences have contributed more research and data on the topic. Human sexuality does not refer to anatomy and physiology but to a complex whole of psychological, social, cultural, and biological attributes. Reproductive and nonreproductive aspects of sexuality are being studied as well as the way in which scientists have conceptualized sexual categories and behavior.

Therefore, contemporary anthropological research on human sexuality is marked by a great deal of reflection and analysis focused on some familiar themes: (1) the impact of the biology of sex on the social, cultural, and psychological aspects of sex; (2) the social construction of concepts relating to sexuality, particularly ideas about gender, and the methods used to explore them, especially scientific ones; and (3) the meaning of consistent patterns of sexual behavior and beliefs worldwide (i.e., how to reconcile general trends with particular cultural contexts)."

Edited to add Nancy Friday's book "Women on Top" is not a scientific study or report. She states as much, it was not her intention and yes she provided anonymity to her contributors.

Edited by - Loraine on 8/7/2004 10:18:36 PM

[Link]

I think Don Juan is correct. There is hard-wiring in the sexes that shapes our overall attitudes towards porn.

Everyone here has an anectode about a their wife/girlfried or someone they knew that watched porn. But ask yourself this question: Would these same women actually go out and BUY porn to satisfy their pleasures? In the absecene of boyfreind/husband to fetch the stuff for them, would they actually go to Adultdvdempire and buy porn? Even go *alone* to an adult bookstore and do a rental?

I'm willing to bet that a bunch of these women who are "into" porn are not interested in the same level as men. If she is your partner, how do you know she is not just "tolerating" it to make you happy?

Granted -- there are exceptions to every rule. Certainly examples can be found of women who genuinely seek out hardcore porn so they can get off. But trust me, they are a minority. I hope you are not using the female contributors this board as a valid sample of the female population (and in all honsetly -- can we absolutely certain every woman on here is INDEED a woman?)

I'm not going to get pedantic on you like Don Juan and try to reference scholastic studies of sexual behavoir. I'm just asking everyone here to observe the habits you see in the real world. Stop clouding things up with the way you *wish* things to be (i.e. -- that all women just LOVE sex and want to give it out all time) -- be truthful about what true purpose of porn is: to substitute for the real sex that the predominately male porn cosumers *wish* they were having.

Many in this industry like to "pretend" that they are helping couples and demonstrating new ways to make love. No doubt,there *are* couples who probably watch the stuff (usually at a male's request). But everyone knows that its the unattached or attached-but-sexually-unfulfilled male that really drives up the revenue.

It's a truth that many here don't want to admit because it may offend the customer base. It totally cracks me up how prententious Seymore Butts sounds when he says that he's trying to enrich sex lives (on his 'Family Busiess' show). Even he is hesitant to admit that it's mostly men whacking off to his movies -- ALONE.

P.S. -->

And yes, I will admit to being one of those single men who whacks off to porn. I'm in a slump right now and porn provides a saftey net (I won't get into whether this is healthy or not).

Edited by - tritone on 8/7/2004 10:44:26 PM

[Link]

DenverDon

Edited by - DenverDon on 8/7/2004 10:48:05 PM

[Link]

Over here we usually have regular video and rental stores with adult sections, so it's easier to tell if ladies are specifically interested in videos instead of just 'stuff'. Personally, I have seen women checking adult section.. well, maybe on a few occasions. It's usually always guys. And I am there often (trust me).

It could be that it's not particularly good store I am going to.

[Link]

Edited by - Zartyr on 8/8/2004 8:25:51 AM

[Link]

Women Tailor Sex Industry To Their Eyes. (National Pages) by Mireya Navarro.
Full Text: COPYRIGHT 2004 The New York Times Company

Carlin Ross and Christina Head, a lawyer and a documentary filmmaker in New York, recently teamed up to plot new careers.

Among their first moves: Ms. Ross, 30, a general counsel to dot-coms, this month restarted an adult Web site that features ''sex and love from a woman's perspective.''

Ms. Head, 26, who has primarily covered subjects like inner-city youth, hopes to produce and direct pornographic films and television programming.

''It's all about empowering and educating women and, of course, I enjoy sex,'' Ms. Head said. ''We're women. We enjoy sex.''

Ms. Head and Ms. Ross are part of a growing cadre of women who are selling sex to other women, in this case what Ms. Ross calls ''female empowered'' adult entertainment -- the kind with plots, foreplay and cuddling in the afterglow, the kind that is mindful of women's tastes and suggests new possibilities for women's pleasure.

Experts say demand by women -- both heterosexual and lesbian -- is driving the growth of all sorts of sex-related ventures, from stores, catalogs and sex toy companies to adult Web sites, pornographic films and cable television shows. At the same time, many women, they say, see the sex industry as a legitimate place to make a living.

''Women have a voice now -- 'This is what I want and this is how I want it,' '' said Ms. Ross.

Samantha Lewis, president of Digital Playground, a DVD company in California that produces pornographic films for women and couples, estimated that women account for 40 percent of retail sales of Digital's movies, double what it was just two years ago. At trade shows, she said, half the fans are women, compared to maybe 10 percent five years ago. ''Women are fueling the growth,'' Ms. Lewis, 42, said.

While women have long been involved in the sex industry as providers and consumers, their participation now has become more of an economic phenomenon, largely because of the Internet. In fact, experts say, the Internet has been a major factor in unleashing women's interest in all things sexual. Surveys by Nielsen/NetRatings, which measures Internet audiences, have found that women account for more than a quarter of all visitors to sites with adult content, with more than 10 million women logging on to such sites in December alone.

ComScore Media Metrix, an Internet research firm, has found even higher female demand for adult sites -- 42 percent of all visitors in January -- with the highest rates among women ages 18 to 34.

The Internet also helps sales for other sex-related businesses.

Toys in Babeland, a company founded by women to sell sex toys and other sex products to women in 1993, with three stores in Washington and New York, said online purchases have boomed in the last four years, outpacing mail-order and retail sales. ''We're getting a boost from the way the Internet allows privacy and from a shift in expectations about sex, specially in women,'' Claire Cavanah, a co-owner, said. ''It's a whole new mindset.''

As recently as a decade ago, the customer base for Adam & Eve, a mail-order marketer of adult entertainment and novelties, was virtually all male, said Katy Zvolerin, a spokeswoman for the company, which is based in Charlotte, N.C. Today, women account for 30 percent of the company's catalog sales and 40 percent of Internet sales, she said.

More women in the business helps to generate more female demand. Debra Curtis, a lecturer on anthropology at Salve Regina University in Newport, R.I., said the Tupperware-style demonstration parties of sex toys, where women sit around with friends in a relaxed setting, help to promote sex toys as fun and mainstream. The saleswomen make the toys ''imaginable,'' she said, for those who would never have considered using them.

''The market is providing women multiple ways of being sexual,'' said Ms. Curtis, who wrote a paper for the journal Cultural Anthropology on the gatherings. ''There are new sexual repertoires, new rules and expectations, being created. It's not just about romance. It's about increasing sexual pleasure. ''

Some critics are skeptical of what is driving the demand.

''Are they doing this to please the men or please themselves?'' asked Tamara Kreinin, president of the Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States, a nonprofit group that promotes comprehensive education about sexuality. '' 'Sex and the City' is indicative of a certain comfort, but for most women it's much less about sex and much more about the relationship.''

Others say that embracing pornography is an unhealthy sign that women are trying to imitate men's attitudes toward sex rather than using their perspective to influence men's behavior.

''The women's pornography I've seen is still pretty blatant,'' said Diana E. H. Russell, a professor emerita of sociology at Mills College in Oakland, Calif., and an expert on sexual violence. ''It's done in a more gentle way, but it's still sex without any connection to other feelings.''

Female directors of pornographic films remain a small minority, but they have become more common in the last five years, industry experts said. One pioneer, Candida Royalle, a performer who began directing in the 1980's, described the woman's influence as steering away from mechanical scenes and ''an overabundance'' of close-up shots to portray ''real bodies and sex that resembled more how women like to make love.''

While no statistics are available, Mark Kernes, senior editor at Adult Video News, the industry's trade publication, said that more women are also seen among the owners of adult video and novelty stores.

The business is attracting women like Alex Reyes, 52, a hairdresser in Austin, Tex., who said she had never bought a sex product -- and had watched possibly two pornographic films in her life -- but who planned to open an adult store in the fall next to her beauty salon. Ms. Reyes said that as she cut hair she often heard her clients discuss the lingerie, ''edible stuff'' and the sex toys they used.

After 30 years in the hair business, she said, she thought her new store would be less demanding and more profitable than her salon.

''Sex sells and there are many different forms,'' said Ms. Reyes, who is single and has a 25-year-old son who she said supported her plans. ''I'm looking at one form.''

Thousands of other women are supplementing incomes and sometimes even becoming wealthy by selling sex products at home demonstrations. Passion Parties, which is based in the San Francisco suburb of Brisbane, Calif., is one of the largest such companies, with 3,200 saleswomen. Patricia Davis, the company's president, said that sales had grown more than 50 percent in each of the last three years, to $20 million annually and that 11 Passion Parties saleswomen sold more than $1 million worth of products last year.

Elena Cruz, 28, a database administrator from Brentwood, N.Y., who bought sex toys and lotions at two Passion Parties over the last year, said she had ''always been interested but I never had the courage'' to buy such products before.

''I never had the guts to walk up and purchase something at a store,'' she said. ''The parties are more accessible and more informative.''

Many new sexual entrepreneurs say they are filling a void, supplying female-oriented products that did not exist before. Last month, Robin Adams, 32, and Micole Taggart, 29, published the first issue of ''Sweet Action,'' a pornographic magazine billed as ''the official guide for the boy-crazy gal.'' The magazine features ''hot'' but normal-looking men and eschews how-to-please-your-man articles for those telling women how to please themselves.

''The original intent was to make something for women that they don't have,'' said Ms. Adams, a jewelry designer who came up with the idea.''We're very underrepresented in our sexuality. We tend to get erotica and poetry, but porn is a scary word for women.''

In Austin, Ms. Reyes envisions ''the new romantic sex shop,'' with ''pinks and blacks and soft colors, music playing.''

''I've dealt with women for years,'' she said. ''Why would they have to go through the Internet, hidden? I want it to be a place where people wouldn't feel embarrassed. You don't have to put on a disguise to visit.''

[Link]

I guarentee, you will see far more women than men in that store. Obviously, this proves that men have no interest in sexy lingerie.

But wait - at the local adult bookstore near me, they sell sexy lingerie, even placing the displays right next to the front door. What gives? Could it be that men are more comfortable looking at, even buying lingerie when it's in a place that men typically shop at? The two times that I've been in this bookstore, I've seen one woman there with a man, but at least 10 men shopping, usually alone.

As for renting/buying porn, I am much more comfortable dealing with places like xrentdvd.com and adultdvdovernight.com, both of which I have rented from. I've also ordered porn and sex toys from Adam & Eve. I just like doing my shopping from the privacy of my own home.

An aside - The lingerie at the adult bookstore is way over-priced, and lousy quality. I couldn't believe they were charging $50 for a camisole/thong set, when it was barely Walmart quality. To any gentleman reading this, if you want to buy lingerie, go to your local Victoria's Secret; the woman in you life will appreciate it, far more than if you buy it from Bob's XXX Parlor.

[Link]

As far as quality and price, I agree - Victoria's Secret is better.

DenverDon

[Link]

http://www.agentprovocateur.com/

Plus, I love their site (for obvious reasons).

[Link]

I sure am female, but my sense of logic has been honed by the 20 some odd years that I've worked as a chemist.

I was simply shocked when I saw the prices of the schlocky lingerie in that adult bookstore (and why do places like that always have some heavyset middle-aged guy at the cash register? Is there some rule about this?).

On the other hand, adult DVd prices are way more reasonable at online retailers who cater towards men, compared to those that cater towards women, like goodvibes.com or Toys in Babeland.

[Link]

Observing portrayals of nude figures:
Definite and/or frequent; females 3%. males 18%
Some response;females 9%.males 36%
Never;females 88%.males 46%

"The failure of nearly all females to find erotic arousal
in such portrayals is so well known to the distributers of nude photographs and nude magazines that they have considered that it would not be financially profitable to produce such material for a primarily female audience."

On wall inscriptions(grafitti):
"In view of our data showing that most females are not erotically aroused by the psychologic stimuli that are of significance to the male,and in view of the data showing that most females are not erotically aroused by observing sexual action,by portrayals of sexual action,or by fantasies of sexual action,there seems little doubt that
the average female's lack of interest in making wall insciptions must depend primarily upon the fact that they
mean little or nothing to her erotically"

And so on.These differences have withstood a half century
of massive social change because these desires and dispositions lie closer to the genes than does manifest behaviour.It is emotions and feelings,not nesessarily behavior,that have evolved by natural selection.And these
feelings and desires are in no way social 'constructs' or
products of a patriarchical conspiracy;they are as real
as hands and feet,ears and lips.

These findings would be true in 1953,1853 or 1053 because they constitute aspects of what is meant by the term 'human
nature'.

[Link]

I've thought about this some and I now I do agree that there is perhaps a market for women's porn. It is clearly not as big as the male market, but money can be made if the product is worthy.

I just don't want guys to start thinking that all these buying statistics mean that women in general are "okay" with porn.

If you are a guy with a HUGE porn collection, I would still hesitate in letting a woman you were intersted in know how big it actually is. Even if she is "interested" in porn.

Edited by - tritone on 8/9/2004 10:49:55 AM

[Link]

Regardless of the difference between men and women in viewing each others bodies, it is safe to say that both sexes respond on some level to all stimuli, be it visual, aural, or tactile. The fact that men respond better to visual stimuli, while women (in general) may respond better to aural or tactile stimuli does not preclude the existence of porn for women.

[Link]

It is a most unscientific approach - in the year 2004, when the field of Molecular Psychiatry and Biological Psychiatry aren't unknown and every little student of psychology also should be aware of the "Kandel" - to neglect the results of newer studies and experiments involving another and new sets of tools and methods.
FWIW, what is happening in the field of Psychology today is what happened in Biology from the 1950ies up to now.
The revolution of a descriptive science developing into a dynamic science.
50ies Kinsey represents for sexual behaviour what Linnean classification methods are in systematic biology today.

The inherent "nature of an atom", or the "nature of the solar system" were also viewed differently in 1953, 1853, 1053 and 2003, BTW.

[Link]

You quoted me out of context, and ignored everything else I had to say. Men and women do respond differently to various stimuli. You don't need scientific studies to know that those differences are real. What I said is that despite those differences there is still a place for porn for women.

Look at the posts on this board from the average male viewer and the average female viewer. I don't see many hardcore raincoater threads that are female supported. Women's tastes are as varied as men's, but on average, women settle into a different camp. For most women who watch porn, it isn't so much about any particular act that is portrayed, but about how the people doing said act respond to each other. If you read through this board enough, and this thread, you will find this to be true. Don't mix the responses of female performers with those of the fans. There is a reason they are performers, and not your average at home viewer.

[Link]

My guess is, most (M&F) will be in the category of normal.

So we have an overrepresentation (which I postulate) of (fan) male raincoaters and an overrepresentation (which you postulate) of (performer) female raincoaters, if you wish, here.

[Link]

RobHammer, you seem to be someone that has attended,to some
degree, to reality.You know there is no significant female
market for porn or other visual erotica.You know that men
and women are extremely different in real life.In that thread
above you appeared to notice that when women do respond to
visual erotica they subjectively identify with the FEMALE
participant,never objectifing the males as sex objects.
You've read Brain Sex,so you have some notion of the evolutionary reasons for these differences.You know that
'culture' has little effect on these aspects of psychology
because they were so intimitely tied to reproductive success
in the past,and selection favored strong hardwiring in order
for individuals to look out for their own genetic interests,
and these interests differed greatly for males and females
because of the different levels of investment they had to
make in each child in order for it to become a viable adult
in the enviroment of human evolution.

Good work.Keep paying attention to reality,not the ideology.

[Link]

Edited by - RobHammer on 8/9/2004 10:06:52 PM

[Link]

I'm reminded of that bedroom scene in Eyes Wide Shut, when Nicole Kidman reveals to her shocked husband that she was once ready to leave him for a handsome man she had seen and fantasized about.

"If you men only knew".

It may be just a movie, but I thought there was a LOT of truth to that scene, and I think some men would be surprised at what we talk about when they're not around. In 1953 however, I doubt if such blasphemous thoughts would be relayed even anonymously.

Velvet Thrust and Decades are apparently as much about a different point-of-view as they are about content. Traditionally most porn has been shot from a male pov, and we already know that most guys can't stand seeing too much of the male, so I don't see why females would be any different. Let's at least give these supposedly revolutionary movies a chance to find an audience.

Personally, although I think it would be weird not to see the girl, I want to see and hear the man most of all. In porn, it's also important to me that he be very attractive, as I totally objectify him as a sex object! FWIW, when I have wet dreams, the man is always unknown to me, or doesn't even have a face.

Rob, my ex-boyfriend wore sexy lingerie, and I actually had a rather negative reaction to it. For one thing, it was mine, and he stretched it out.

He'll be over tomorrow night and I'll ask him if I can post a picture because coincidentally he looks a lot like Julian, minus the tatts.

[Link]

Has Rocco ever looked better?

[Link]

DenverDon

[Link]

You are undoubtedly wrong. Sorry to disappoint you.

DenverDon

[Link]

As for lingerie and our blonde smarty pants, most men's lingerie is, well, not very masculine. One evening on chat I asked a female forum poster what kind of men's lingerie she liked. She was like what? underwear? briefs? what? No, lingerie. A google search for men's lingerie turned up stuff that may be a hit with the gay crowd, but most of it probably not with straight women.

I have a very nice leopard print half robe with more or less matching boxers (contents jiggle) that have been known to turn a few heads. The more seasoned forum reader may find a post or story that mention this.

Edited by - RobHammer on 8/10/2004 3:16:41 AM

[Link]

DenverDon

[Link]

Maybe it's just seeing Siffredi lying there, looking pensive, not doing anything, that gets to me. Or maybe it's the fact that he's following direction from a woman director that does it for me. Whatever, I like it.

Now, if they would only release this film in the US.

[Link]

Does this make sense?

[Link]

Edited by - RobHammer on 8/10/2004 11:26:45 AM

[Link]

If you eliminate conventionally attractive women and only put unconventionally attractive women in porn, the male audience base drops significantly. You then feature conventionally attractive guys, masked guys, unconventionally sexy guys who can perform foreplay and intercourse well, the female fan base significantly increases and becomes the majority viewing base in porn.

P.S. Unconventional sexy guy is a guy who doesn't have the typical male model, Hollywood Hunk type of look.

[Link]

Can't wait to buy Mr. Davis and Silvia Saint Video. A hall of fame male performer paired up with just a hot woman makes her so much hotter.

Edited by - Huggins293 on 8/10/2004 11:52:45 AM

[Link]

Don, to be honest I don't see how women can not objectify the male in porn. It doesn't make sense.

Edited by - Huggins293 on 8/10/2004 11:34:04 AM
[/quote]

That's because you're a man.Most women DO NOT OBJECTIFY MEN
SEXUALY when they respond to erotic films and images.Rather,
they sort of become the woman in the sex scene or image;that
is,she imagines herself as someone men react to sexually.This ability to identify with other women is a real evolutionary adaptation,one that allows females to manipulate men to their advantage.It's also the reason that you find mostly photos of WOMEN in the periodicals and
other print publications that women ACTUALLY do buy,NOT MEN.
If woman really responded to male images in the same fashion
that men respond to images of women ,every magazine on the
earth that catered to women would include them in their pages to maximize sales.
But they do not.Patriarchal conspiracy? No,simply human
nature,or rather FEMALE human nature.

Huggins 293,women would be far more erotically interested in
statues and paintings of women in a museum or exhibit than
they would of be of male depictions,you can trust me.That a VERY
small number of women exists to whom this does not apply,in
no sense falsifies this reality.

What really should make little sense to you is the fact that
people think women must be repressed men awaiting to throw
off their shackles and act in ways that are natural to men,
such as buying and enjoying porn.Complete nonsense!

Edited by - don juan on 8/10/2004 4:29:20 PM

[Link]

Don, to be honest I don't see how women can not objectify the male in porn. It doesn't make sense.

Edited by - Huggins293 on 8/10/2004 11:34:04 AM

Overexaggerated feminist theories may be the reason why you insist that visual erotic material only can be sold to a male audience.

[Link]