LA Times article on the decline of the industry

Author	Post
word Member 21 Posts 8/09	Posted - Aug 10 2009 : 4:25PM Tough times in the porn industry Pirating and the economy are cutting earnings by up to 50% and actor rates are being slashed considerably. How can the porn industry compete with free porn, which is every where online. The music industry has the same problem and most musicians depend on concerts, endorsements, apparel sales and side projects to earn their living. What is the future of adult entertainment? edited to make clickable link Edited by - BigBobxxx on Aug 11 2009 [Link]
imsorry Deactivated User Fortune presents gifts not according to the book. 43 Posts 8/09	Posted - Aug 10 2009 : 6:48PM my guess: more censorship. I think that eventually something will be set up along government lines and they'll go too far in making things safe for the public, akin to the Chinese situation. Porn industry's going belly up...get it now while it's still around. [Link]
fu_q All-Star Member Marv Montag (@PornOfYore) 2506 Posts 2/09	Posted - Aug 10 2009 : 7:04PM You might find a lot of the info in this thread interesting: https://forum.adultdvdtalk.com/forum/topic.dlt/whichpage=1/topic_id=134288/forum_id=1/cat_id=1/134288.htm Some industry people were involved, and a lot of aspects of the industry's current state were discussed. [Link]
Dean Wormer Senior Member Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son. 1048 Posts 7/04	Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 1:28AM I've noticed that by the time the mainstream media covers a porn story (with the exception of HIV news) it's generally about a year after it's been thoroughly discussed on porn boards/sites. [Link]
Cuddly Wombat Senior Member Just another bare bum in the shiower 1739 Posts 12/04	Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 8:05AM I am thinking it will follow the music route, with more feature dancing, live sex(cam) shows, porn conventions, escorting and apparrel (t-shirts and worn panties) sales. [Link]

Gr8Gonzo Member 199 Posts 6/09	Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 8:38AM word wrote: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-ct-porn10-2009aug10,0,4788614.story Pirating and the economy are cutting earnings by up to 50% and actor rates are being slashed considerably. How can the porn industry compete with free porn, which is every where online. The music industry has the same problem and most musicians depend on concerts, endorsements, apparel sales and side projects to earn their living. What is the future of adult entertainment? Click to expand Great link. #1 Eliminate Piracy #2 Manage the endless flow of 18 year olds entering porn, let's face it as mention here on ADT in another post every 18 year old seems to be in porn. The more girls the less jobs per girl. #3 Will push girl's to accept shoots that they were unwilling to do before. #4 Euro girl's are able more than ever to travel to US for shoots. Edited by - Gr8Gonzo on 8/11/2009 8:44:33 AM [Link]
Jaktarn Senior Member 4798 Posts 5/05	Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 10:13AM Gr8Gonzo: I thought Bush had changed something in the immigration laws making it harder for Euro girls getting work permits in the US? And that would also be the reason for the sudden drop of euro girls in Us porn the last couple of years? I believe it was a lot more common maybe 4-5 years ago? [Link]
fu_q All-Star Member Marv Montag (@PornOfYore) 2506 Posts 2/09	Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 10:32AM ^I think that Pornlaw mentioned it a couple of times, but I don't remember the specifics. Did it have to do with the 2257 stuff? [Link]
Gr8Gonzo Member 199 Posts 6/09	Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 10:34AM Jaktarn wrote: Gr8Gonzo: I thought Bush had changed something in the immigration laws making it harder for Euro girls getting work permits in the US? And that would also be the reason for the sudden drop of euro girls in Us porn the last couple of years? I believe it was a lot more common maybe 4-5 years ago? Click to expand No clue, that also includes US producers going overseas. Most every major studio and site has eurogirl scenes and/or sites. [Link]
Jaktarn Senior Member 4798 Posts 5/05	Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 10:34AM Dont remember but would like to find out. [Link]
pornlaw Member 578 Posts 10/05	Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 10:41AM Jaktarn wrote: Gr8Gonzo: I thought Bush had changed something in the immigration laws making it harder for Euro girls getting work permits in the US? And that would also be the reason for the sudden drop of euro girls in Us porn the last couple of years? I believe it was a lot more common maybe 4-5 years ago? Click to expand fu_q is correct... 2257 requires US ID for a US based producer. US producers can go overseas to produce and use euro talent but cannot import them until they have the necessary work permits and visa. If they dont have the necessary docs it is an immigration violation as well as a violation of 18 USC 2257 if the producer is ever inspected. Michael www.AdultBizLaw.com www.2257Safe.com [Link]
Gr8Gonzo Member 199 Posts 6/09	Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 10:43AM pornlaw wrote: Jaktarn wrote: Gr8Gonzo: I thought Bush had changed something in the immigration laws making it harder for Euro girls getting work permits in the US? And that would also be the reason for the sudden drop of euro girls in Us porn the last couple of years? I believe it was a lot more common maybe 4-5 years ago? Click to expand fu_q is correct... 2257 requires US ID for a US based producer. US producers can go overseas to produce and use euro talent but cannot import them until they have the necessary work permits and visa. If they dont have the necessary docs it is an immigration violation as well as a violation of 18 USC 2257 if the producer is ever inspected. Michael www.AdultBizLaw.com www.2257Safe.com Click to expand Thanks, so the question is are more permits and visa's being issued to eurogirls who might work at a lower rate? [Link]
Jaktarn Senior Member 4798 Posts 5/05	Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 11:12AM I dont think so at the moment? US goverment probably dont think too highly of porn to start shutting down tubesites or making it easier for eurochicks to enter the country and make it more profitable for the producers. Porn will have to stand on their own legs at least the goverment will make it look like that. [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 5:11PM Porn is no different than any other business during a recession/depression/economic downturn. Everyone suffers and some will fail. The ones that survive do so by coming up with new ways to keep getting the product to the consumers. I remember dialogue between Johnny Depp and Danny Trejo. Depp was asking Trejo to do something and then asked him, "Are you a MexiCan or a MexiCan't?" The companies that will survive the current downturn aren't sitting around whining about Piracy and free content on the web, they're planning their next move as a MexiCan! Let's review the past 25 years or so, shall we? VCRs become mainstream. Prediction: the death of Hollywood as noone will go to the movies. Reality: Hollywood still alive and kicking. Porn Theaters die, home viewing increases, production increases, Video Queens are born. Napster allows for exchange of music files. Prediction: Death of the music industry. Reality: you can buy almost any song you want for $.99 from places like ITunes or from the Artist's own website. Porn Piracy is killing the porn industry. Prediction: Free content however crappy on the net is the death of porn. Reality: Piracy is not killing porn, but it does provide an easy scapegoat for an industry that puts out between 10,000-15,000 releases a year. With that many releases out, the non top 5 Brand name companies or so have to get their product advertised to the masses so they'd check it out. They put snippets of their films on the free sites in hopes of catching someone's eye. But the bottom line on most of these snippets is that they suck. You have 20 seconds of the company's name, then maybe 4 minutes of the various shots of the scene and then right before the popshot, scene fades out, and you have the company's name again. Some will download that and spank it off to that, but it truly isn't as satisfying as watching an Andi Anderson, Bree, Faye, Katja, Kylie etc in a full release. Really not much different than the trailer that you see on the average DVD. What is truly causing the economic decline in the porn industry is and always will be crappy product. Burn me once or twice with a misleading release and you won't be seeing repeat business. Pure and simple. 10,000 new releases, 6 scenes per = 60,000 scenes. After a while, it's going through the motions and it shows in the end release. That why companies like RLD or PXP are no longer the powerhouses they are, started going through the motions just putting out product to put out product. Regardless of how much back content is available on the web, the viewing public wants new product and new girls. Its the nature of the business. As much as I liked someone 10 years ago, I'm still going to be looking for someone newer and more extreme. For companies to survive, they have to get past the standard format of 2 good scenes and 4 crappy ones in a release. What I would do if I was a "brand name player" in the porn world, is I'd be eyeing up what companies has the strongest back catalog that I could pick up for the least amount of cash. I'd start an ITunes type of scene site and sell per scene. I'd love to pick and choose individual scenes from Bree Olson or Chelsie Rae or Andi Anderson's Brother Load scene without having to search the store for that title. The companies that are to survive in the next decade already realize this and are most likely planning on this very idea. On a unrelated note, all girls entering into porn should be shown that article as far as what not to do. Savannah started making some easy cash and the first thing she gets is a 350 SLK, probably has a half dozen LV bags and purses to go along with all the Chanel and Dior sunglasses. Business slows down and she's relegated to almost being a bargain basement has been with nothing to show for it. As is with most cash in cash out jobs, easy come easy go. Only in this case; video, porn, and the web go on forever. Edited by - rosco fuji on 8/11/2009 5:12:24 PM Edited by - rosco fuji on 8/11/2009 5:13:54 PM Edited by - rosco fuji on 8/11/2009 5:14:41 PM Edited by - rosco fuji on 8/11/2009 5:17:33 PM [Link]
Jaktarn Senior Member 4798 Posts 5/05	Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 5:16PM This Itunes idea kind of already exist on bangbros and realitykings with their material with the difference that is cheaper and on a flatrate. And I think you are right about companies being able to survive eventhough piracy. [Link]

jrv Senior Member 1266 Posts 2/03	Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 6:36PM Web porn sites are rendering immigration issues meaningless. You can download videos from MoreGonzo, PressPlay and other sites that have euro babes doing circus acts that can't be filmed in the US. Moreover why spend the money to bring the girls to LA when it's cheaper to buy a scene produced in Europe or Russia, or wherever she's from, and include that in a US release? I personally don't think the economy has much to do with it. I think the #1 issue is competition from free smut online (which may or may not be pirated), piracy, and the transition to a new business model (web downloads vs physical DVD distribution) [Link]
irontuna Member So many redheads, so little time. 319 Posts 7/09	Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 8:27PM I think Rosco Fuji has it exactly right on all points. However, I also suspect Savannah Stern can't get work because there are perhaps 200 more girls vieing for the same shoot as even just 5 years ago. As was mentioned, it seems that as soon as a girl turns 18 they are with an agency ready to shoot porn. While that increases the "new faces", to me it has also contributes to much of what I dislike in porn today. Most of the new girls have absolutely no idea of what it takes to turn on an audience and it is more than just sucking and fucking. Those of us who really support the industry know as much. So it is one new face after another and bam they are gone after very tepid performances. In addition I know DVD sales are down. I have contributed to that by using VOD. However I am increasing dissatisfied with VOD (buffering, poor quality format etc.) that I have once again decided to buy videos. I think this will be a trend and DVD sales will increase along with the upturn in the economy. Finally, Piracy remains a problem. Brandon Irons posts on this site regularly and has pointed out how piracy has affected his business. I am not smart enough to know all the answers, but piracy greatly affected the music industry and it seems to have weathered it with the purchase of song tracks and live performances. I believe porn will do so as well. The I tunes model seems like a way of going. In porn perhaps it should be the Pie tunes upload site. [Link]
Jeff Mullen Member Hall of Famer -Time to get out 219 Posts 1/08	Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 11:07PM Yes Rosco Fuji seems to have it right but in reality with all due respect to him he is not even close to being correct. The simple fact is that for an industry that has one product and one product only, free is not a workable business plan. I am amazed at how this industry has laid back and done virtually nothing to help stem the tide. We are much different than the music industry (which I worked in for nearly 20 years before porn) and those that think iTunes is the savior of the music industry are totally wrong. We have our own 'iTunes for porn' and many of those companies will be gone in a few years too just like 90% of the existing porn production companies. Brazzers, FreeOnes and the like are not doing anybody but themselves a favor and for those companies that are thanking them for the extra traffic they might be getting from a site like Freeones.com are only fooling themselves. Now, I might sound like I am bitter but the truth is that I own one of the companies still making big movies and money but we can see the writing on the wall and we think we will have a very limited future in this business. It used to be pirated content was the main problem but now many are offering up their entire libraries adding to the problem and glut of free porn which is the main reason the industry is being strangled. The economy is a very distant second. The real kicker here is the Federal Government has done nothing to stop the flow of stolen material and our industry leaders have done very little (just like the music industry in the 90s) to fight against it. Those little FBI signs at the beginning of each movie are a joke and I really think the government has let down and not protected the citizens of the US which is part of the US Constitution. Think about all the little kids that watch free graphic porn (some of it pirated) of all sorts on the internet. Why does the government place zero importance on policing that yet they put producers who own the content through an aerobic exercise to stay compliant in a mountain of excessive paperwork? It truly doesn't make sense but the end result will be no more porn industry which I guess was the government's goal from the jump. I love this industry and the people in it and have a lot of fun working in it but can't believe it will all be over in a few years. Adapt or die they say but I ask adapt to what? The person that figures that out is going to be very wealthy. [Link]
elgringoviejo58 Senior Member 1460 Posts 1/07	Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 11:11PM Haven's NA and ZZ adapted to the new realities of the 21st century jizzbizz? [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - Aug 12 2009 : 1:26AM Jeff Mullen wrote: Yes Rosco Fuji seems to have it right but in reality with all due respect to him he is not even close to being correct. The simple fact is that for an industry that has one product and one product only, free is not a workable business plan. I am amazed at how this industry has laid back and done virtually nothing to help stem the tide. We are much different than the music industry (which I worked in for nearly 20 years before porn) and those that think iTunes is the savior of the music industry are totally wrong. We have our own 'iTunes for porn' and many of those companies will be gone in a few years too just like 90% of the existing porn production companies. Brazzers, FreeOnes and the like are not doing anybody but themselves a favor and for those companies that are thanking them for the extra traffic they might be getting from a site like Freeones.com are only fooling themselves. Now, I might sound like I am bitter but the truth is that I own one of the companies still making big movies and money but we can see the writing on the wall and we think we will have a very limited future in this business. It used to be pirated content was the main problem but now many are offering up their entire libraries adding to the problem and glut of free porn which is the main reason the industry is being strangled. The economy is a very distant second. The real kicker here is the Federal Government has done nothing to stop the flow of stolen material and our industry leaders have done very little (just like the music industry in the 90s) to fight against it. It truly doesn't make sense but the end result will be no more porn industry which I guess was the government's goal from the jump. Adapt or die they say but I ask adapt to what? The person that figures that out is going to be very wealthy. Click to expand Well, I agree and disagree with you Jeff. And I feel I'm more correct than you'd like to think I'm very good at overall analysis and evaluations. Yes, the "free" idea will obviously not support the industry, but at no point did I say it would. You say it yourself, that Brazzers isn't doing anyone a favor but themselves. You also say it yourself in the last sentence. The people who are adapting are the ones who will survive and comeback stronger and wealthier. Is your company doing anything to change and survive, or are you just waiting for the end to come? Blaming the Govt for the downfall of porn is a copout. You know they aren't going to be doing anything other than the 2247 checks, so instead of complaining about it, are you doing anything about it? The bottom line is if you put out a decent product, charge a reasonable price, and make it easy for people to get, you will survive. You mentioned Itunes for porn, how does that work? Can I buy individual scenes or am I stuck buying a whole movie for the one scene that I truly want? Edited by - rosco fuji on 8/12/2009 1:27:47 AM [Link]
BrekkyDJ Member Australia 246 Posts 10/06	Posted - Aug 12 2009 : 2:32AM In a way (as pointed out earlier) the Industry does have itself to blame for this down trend. Like any industry, if you flood the market with a certain product it will kill companies. Everyone gets competitive and instead of a limited number of quality product coming out, you get a flood of cheaper product. Soon the Consumer hits back saying they refuse to pay the same price for what is an inferior product. So one company reacts and drops their price and everyone flocks to them. Like it or not other companies follow and a battle of wills begin. Things will not stabilize until a number of companies drop off and the balance of "Supply and Demand" can be restored. This slump will last for awhile, as because there is so much free/pirate porn out there, it's going to take people awhile to get thru it all before they are bored with it. In a sense maybe the porn industry has to put the brakes on production for awhile (though I know it will hurt a number of people) to restore balance. As pointed out A-List porn stars will continue to trade thru this because of their name. Example: Kylie Ireland I would imagine would still be going OK not just because of her name, but her service/personal touch - that being chatting to the fans here... a good way to give your personal 'business' a good reputation. Thoughts? BrekkyDJ (in Melbourne, Australia - any stars coming to Sexpo in November?) [Link]
imsorry Deactivated User Fortune presents gifts not according to the book. 43 Posts 8/09	Posted - Aug 12 2009 : 2:57AM ^"Odi profanum vulgus et arceo; Favete linguis; carmina non prius Audita Musarum sacerdos Virginibus puerisque canto" [Link]
The Fly Is Open Member Where in the hell is my grilled cheese? 575 Posts 3/05	Posted - Aug 12 2009 : 9:53AM I don't think that piracy is the main culprit for the rough times the industry is going through. The fact is piracy is not as rampant as some people are led to believe, and that most people will pay a fair price for a product they deem as worthy; the fact that mainstream motion picture revenues are still strong is an indicator of this. Neither are porn's problems contemporaneous with the music industry's. The record business put themselves in their mess in their attempt to phase out singles and EPs in favor of albums at the advent of CDs, then resisting the inevitable shift to digital downloads; the Clear Channelization of radio and MTV's transformation from music programming to tabloid chatter and reality shows also weakened that industry's two biggest promotional outlets. Rather, porn is where the gaming industry was 25 years ago, with a glut of years' worth of bad product overwhelming whatever good is on the marketplace and turning away the consumer. The big difference is that whereas millions of Atari 2600 cartridges met a final resting place at the bottom of a landfill, the porn consumers don't want to pay for is ending up on Rapidshare, torrents, and tube sites for free, which those consumers then don't seem to mind. Ultimately, the industry players will have to make a deal with the tube sites to allow some content on the sites in exchange for the removal of pirated material. Media companies realized they couldn't beat YouTube and joined them, and porn producers will have to do the same in order to compete. Beyond that, the industry has to put an emphasis on superior production values that can't be achieved with amateur content, and web companies have to provide a la carte/on demand access to individual scenes at a reasonable charge alongside full subscriptions. [Link]
Jeff Mullen Member Hall of Famer -Time to get out 219 Posts 1/08	Posted - Aug 12 2009 : 11:26PM The Fly is Open writes: "I don't think that piracy is the main culprit for the rough times the industry is going through. The fact is piracy is not as rampant as some people are led to believe,...." Well I would like to point out to Mr. Fly and others that when we released Not Bewitched XXX last September we had 187,000 pirated views of one of the sex scenes the VERY FIRST WEEK...ON ONE TUBE SITE! Now I am not saying that all of those first week free-loaders would have purchased the movie, but some would and when you multiply that by numerous weeks and hundreds and thousands of titles being pirated and the proliferation of numerous free sites that's a lot of money out of my company and other people's pockets. X-Play paid for the production, post and marketing costs of the movie yet 187,000 people watched it for free in one week on one site alone. With that said, anybody that doesn't believe that piracy with the tubes and the torrent sites is not a big problem has their head so far up their ass that they might want to join the circus. And with all due respect to Mr. Fly and the many others that think the over saturation of the market or the economy is the main problem with declining sales I can tell you I don't buy it for a minute. On an almost funny note, there is a company out there that just received legal notices from X-Play and Hustler about their 'service' of burning a blank white disc with the movie of the consumers' choice and sending it to them for $10. Their marketing angle is that "it comes in a nondescript DVD so that your wife won't find out". HA! Thou Shalt Not Fucking Steal! What ever happened to that commandment lol? I guess nobody gives a shit anymore. We still care about theft and pay a private company hard earned money each month to pull our copyrighted infringed content off Tubes and Torrent sites. I think every company should be doing that but they don't. All of the comments and arguments that the readers post do make some sense depending on which way you look at the situation but from the perspective of the guy that is paying the bills, to me it is just outright theft. Now lastly for those that think I am just not 'adapting' to the times, I spend a portion of my week attempting to adapt to the changing times and think into the future for ways to operate in a cashless porn world...I have not figured it out yet. If anybody figures it out please call me first and I will be happy to split the profit with you.- Jeff Mullen AKA Will Ryder. [Link]
Mike Quasar Zero Tolerance Reluctant pornographer 1765 Posts 7/01	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 12:08AM Jeff, don'tcha know you're supposed to do this for free because of your love of the art. Art has no price. Information needs to be free. The Beatles still would have created Sgt.Pepper even without financial compensation. Dark Side of the Moon was a labor of love and I heard that Pink Floyd sent all of the money back that they made from it. When Wolverine was downloaded over a million times before it was even in the theatre, hell, before it was even FINISHED, the director and producers were elated that all of their hard work and talent was being enjoyed by so many without the burden of parting with their hard earned money in this troubled economy. .....Blah blah blah.... Now back to reality. Green Day sold 14 million copies of American Idiot 3 years ago. Their new album has yet to break a million. Does it suck? Are they no longer popular? or maybe, just maybe, 13 million thieving pieces of human waste downloaded it for free. Same with the latest U2 album. Same with anything that can be digitized. You complain about DRM, you complain about "not being able to own what you paid for" but obviously some of you are paying for something and then giving it away to the masses for some reason. If no one uploaded a dvd to Pirate bay or their drm-free membership scenes to tube sites, we wouldn't be having this tired and increasingly redundant conversation. Those of you who pay for a DVD or a CD and then upload it for all to steal are fucking morons and I can't wrap my head around why you do it. And for those who partake in their idiotic largesse, you are thieves. Period. Make all of the rationalizations and justifications that you want; YOU ARE THIEVES. You don't drive away without paying for gas because there are consequences but you will steal a DVD or a song because their are none at the moment. Just as Jeff said, you can warble on with your "adapt or die" mantra but free is free and there is no competing with it. For those of you who still possess some degree of human dignity and pay for what you enjoy, I tip my hat and thank you from the bottom of my heart. Unfortunately there are less and less of you every year. This is just the beginning. Check back in 50 years when there is NOTHING left to download for free because everyone who created anything went out of business years earlier. end of rant. [Link]

fu_q All-Star Member Marv Montag (@PornOfYore) 2506 Posts 2/09	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 12:59PM ^It's a very serious problem, and there's no obvious solution--quite honestly. I, personally, don't download any pirated content (music, movies, whatever, ...) But a lot of people do -- particularly those of the younger generation. It really does suck, and it may well substantially diminish the adult industry--as well as others--which is a shame. [Link]
fu_q All-Star Member Marv Montag (@PornOfYore) 2506 Posts 2/09	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 1:22PM ^I do have something of a question, though--for people in the know. Is downloading substantially worse now than it was 3 years ago? I'm not causing trouble--I honestly don't know. [Link]
darkko jonni darkko 1085 Posts 1/05	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 1:27PM Piracy is the issue! It makes me sick! I never gave anyone permission to put my content up on servers and pass it around like a joint at a dead concert!!! It's theft and needs to be stopped. We are not musicians... we don't tour and sell t-shits. The younger generation doesn't want to pay for anything. Fuck Bit Torrent! Its is a monster getting away with crime. I am not giving in. Rosco Fuji, do you create a product that is stolen and handed out for free the first day it is released??? I'm not giving up without a fight! Jonni [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 4:40PM darkko wrote: Piracy is the issue! It makes me sick! I never gave anyone permission to put my content up on servers and pass it around like a joint at a dead concert!!! It's theft and needs to be stopped. We are not musicians... we don't tour and sell t-shits. The younger generation doesn't want to pay for anything. Fuck Bit Torrent! Its is a monster getting away with crime. I am not giving in. Rosco Fuji, do you create a product that is stolen and handed out for free the first day it is released??? I'm not giving up without a fight! Jonni Click to expand Oh Boo Hoo. No Piracy is not "the" issue. It might be "an" issue but it's not the main cause. I'm not saying it doesn't exist or isn't a concern, but the bigger issue is the unscrupulous nature within the porn industry in general. Several industry people are posting on this thread saying, "my hard work this, my hard work that" which I respect, no problems there. But at what point does the porn industry respect the consumer's hard work on earning the cash to rent/purchase the product, go to the video store to select a product etc? Bottom line, overall it doesn't. The industry is looking to make a quick buck, pure and simple. After getting burned on product/content promised and not delivered numerous times, the consumer has the, "fuck them as I'm tired of getting ripped off" attitude. To further my point on this promised but not delivered idea, here is a couple of lines the from a dvd review I posted a few years ago. "In addition, the front cover of the disc shows Paris’ pretty face covered with cum. The photo is complete doctored, as there are no scenes on the disc showing Paris with that much cum on her face." Now I drove the 48 miles total to rent/return this above title and spent an hour searching amongst the thousands upon thousands of titles to make my selection and then spent $3 to rent it. I'm picking it up because I've met Heather Gables at the AEE and I love her work. Imagine my disappointment when at no point is that much cum remotely near Heather's face. What is my recourse at this point? Can you imagine going to the girls in the porn store, "I'd like a credit to my account because there wasn't the promised cum on Heather's face and mouth!" So Mike, Jeff, and Jonni, on this above title, I'm out between $10-$12 on overall time, gas, and $. If this happens once a week, I've pissed away $500 or so per year, more if I wind up renting more than disk at a time. What is my recourse? If my dissatisfaction was with one of "your" releases, can I send a refund request to "your" company expressing my dissatisfaction on quality of "your" product, and can I expect to actually see a refund? It's certainly not going to happen at the retail level, as they won't even entertain any notion other than playability issues, and even then, that's almost like pulling teeth. I'd really be interested in hearing an answer to the above questions. The above example would probably be the main reason a porn viewer would use a download site to get some porn. Now onto the issue of the actual posting on content onto these sites. Chances are you guys(porn industry, not you guys personally) have to look little further than the end of your noses. If everyone operated in an upstanding manner, you wouldn't have these problems. There are numerous postings on this site about the buddy fucking nature the industry. There are several postings by the guy who did those "25 guys cumming in a girls mouth all at once" titles complaining about the rather light royalty checks from the companies and distributors of his product. I read another by some suitcase guy named Skeeter who's wife did 3 sex scenes in 3 different rooms in 3 different outfits and it was all in "one scene" so the company could get away with only paying her 1 scene's rate. Evidently they were new to the industry at the time. And, a few years ago when there was the Darren James issue and the so called moratorium on shooting for a certain quartine period. A few weeks later, stories started appearing about secret shoots going on, moratorium and performer safety be damned, let's fuck. The unfortunate girls were tossed a few thousand bucks and a good luck. So, those are a few examples of the way people in porn treat other people in porn, so why are you shocked when someone does it to you? So if you want a reason why material gets posted, don't blame the average person sitting as at home on their laptop, look at those types of scenarios listed above. Its as simple as everyone in the porn industry treating everyone as they wanted to be treated themselves. This disertion is finished with the following comments: Don't discount the "Glut" of porn argument, its a bigger factor than you might think I don't download free stuff porn or otherwise in general from the net as I like to maintain a squeaky clean laptop, but I can see how people do. The above issues weren't directed personally at Jeff, Mike, or Jonni or the material they produce, but the industry in general. Lastly; Mike, I find it amusing that you're using Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon, The Beatles' Sgt Pepper, and U2 as a comparison to the porn industry. LOL Edited by - rosco fuji on 8/13/2009 4:44:04 PM Edited by - rosco fuji on 8/13/2009 4:50:18 PM [Link]
imsorry Deactivated User Fortune presents gifts not according to the book. 43 Posts 8/09	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 4:52PM [Link]
Mike Quasar Zero Tolerance Reluctant pornographer 1765 Posts 7/01	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 4:59PM I wasn't suggesting that porn and Pink Floyd are artistic equivalents. Of course they're not, my point is that people often justify online theft by complaining about the poor quality of what's out there and yet they also steal music by Pink Floyd and the Beatles and to counter the argument that people will pay for quality. Quality just means it gets stolen faster and more often, hence the disappointing album sales from U2 and Green Day this year. And if you've been burned by porn companies and their false advertising, your recourse is the same as a consumer of any other product; don't buy from them again. Edited by - mike quasar on 8/13/2009 5:03:34 PM [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 5:10PM Mike Quasar wrote: I wasn't suggesting that porn and Pink Floyd are artistic equivalents. Of course they're not, my point is that people often justify online theft by complaining about the poor quality of what's out there and yet they also steal music by Pink Floyd and the Beatles. And if you've been burned by porn companies and their false advertising, your recourse is the same as a consumer of any other product; don't buy from them again. Click to expand First, I just found it amusing that they were mentioned in the same sentence. But what I really find amusing is that comparison is what you actually responded to versus the more relevant valid points I listed before that. Secondly, your answer to the following question: What is my recourse? If my dissatisfaction was with one of "your" releases, can I send a refund request to "your" company expressing my dissatisfaction on quality of "your" product, and can I expect to actually see a refund? is a resounding, "No! You don't like it, Don't buy from them again!" And you wonder why "your" hard work isn't respected. Most other companies have a return policy if you aren't happy, they usually ask for a chance to make it right. [Link]
Mike Quasar Zero Tolerance Reluctant pornographer 1765 Posts 7/01	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 5:15PM So because some people in the porn business treat each other badly, you should steal from them? That's a new one. [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 5:29PM Mike Quasar wrote: So because some people in the porn business treat each other badly, you should steal from them? That's a new one. Click to expand Again Mike, why are you ducking the obivious customer service question of: What is my recourse? If my dissatisfaction was with one of "your" releases, can I send a refund request to "your" company expressing my dissatisfaction on quality of "your" product, and can I expect to actually see a refund? [Link]
just_me Member 133 Posts 4/09	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 5:33PM Piracy is the biggest problem. When it was ruled in courts a couple years ago that webmasters have zero liability, near zero responsibility for user uploaded content, including adult material, that is when piracy unraveled out of control. The porn industry is at such a disadvantage compared to the movie and music industry, who can advertise their products in a wide variety of places. Type "porn forum" into google and see what the results are. See where the first non-piracy site comes up in the search. To sell a product, you first have to make someone aware of its existence. How do you do that on the internet? The second step is, you have to give the person a place to buy the product from. Type any porn dvd title into google and see that 90+% of the search results are piracy sites, some titles it's not until the 5th page of links, or greater, before a legitimate retailer is found. Who's going to search through all that when 95% of the results say "download here for free!" There is one misconception that gets floated around a lot including in this thread, people do not upload what they paid for. People only upload what they obtain for free. From either cracked passwords, and I suspect it's some employee at some retailer "borrowing" a copy of all the new releases. Then when file-sharing hosts turned piracy into a full paying job... And Rosco Fuji nobody gives refunds on digital content, not the music industry, not the movie industry, not the gaming industry. [Link]

Stud_Rob Member 703 Posts 4/09	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 5:34PM It's quite sad reading that article. [Link]
Mike Quasar Zero Tolerance Reluctant pornographer 1765 Posts 7/01	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 5:46PM First of all, we're not in the practice of deceiving the consumer but if you actually cited a legitimate example of you not receiving what you expected, then yes, we would consider refunding you or offering you another title. Many of us here have worked many years to develop trust from the consumer, well aware that their are many other companies who engage in bait and switch etc. I stand by my argument however that your best course of action is simply boycott the offending company. [Link]
Rosco Fuji Deactivated User On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick! 3309 Posts 2/09	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 6:06PM Mike Quasar wrote: First of all, we're not in the practice of deceiving the consumer but if you actually cited a legitimate example of you not receiving what you expected, then yes, we would consider refunding you or offering you another title. Many of us here have worked many years to develop trust from the consumer, well aware that their are many other companies who engage in bait and switch etc. I stand by my argument however that your best course of action is simply boycott the offending company. Click to expand Thank you for that response Mike. [Link]
pegpelvispete Member 286 Posts 6/09	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 7:20PM How do you even stop torrents? Apart from government intervention, I mean. The file sharing forums seem simple enough. Find the links, report them, links deleted. Although that's a shit-ton of links and forums to go through. But what can you do about a torrent since it's technically not "hosted" anywhere, or at least insofar as I understand it? [Link]
darkko jonni darkko 1085 Posts 1/05	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 10:00PM Mike, Don't waste your time.... This guy is a hater! unscrupulous?? thats what you call us??? Bye, [Link]
just_me Member 133 Posts 4/09	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 10:37PM Jeff Mullen wrote: when we released Not Bewitched XXX last September we had 187,000 pirated views of one of the sex scenes the VERY FIRST WEEK...ON ONE TUBE SITE! Click to expand This is why I really do think there is room to adapt. If you were able to recover a mere nickel for every time that was viewed across the net you'd be a happy man. Now if you recovered a quarter for every time!! The potential to go cheap on pricing and make big $$ is there on the internet, 'course granted the producers could ever cooperate with each other... [Link]
Mike Quasar Zero Tolerance Reluctant pornographer 1765 Posts 7/01	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 10:50PM just_me wrote: Jeff Mullen wrote: when we released Not Bewitched XXX last September we had 187,000 pirated views of one of the sex scenes the VERY FIRST WEEK...ON ONE TUBE SITE! Click to expand This is why I really do think there is room to adapt. If you were able to recover a mere nickel for every time that was viewed across the net you'd be a happy man. Now if you recovered a quarter for every time!! The potential to go cheap on pricing and make big $$ is there on the internet, 'course granted the producers could ever cooperate with each other... Click to expand That's true but the reason tube sites have such enormous volumes of traffic is because they are free. If everyone paid a nickel, none of us would complain but once you start charging a nickel, they'll all flock to another free site. I would love to know what percentage of the traffic on these tube sites actually converts to paying customers. Logic dictates that this traffic has no value. We'd all love to get millions of eyes on our websites but if the thing drawing them there is a free version of the very thing we're trying to sell.... I don't get it. It makes my head spin. It seems like using free porn to draw traffic to sell porn is an exercise in complete futility. Banners for dating sites and live cams can't be bringing in so much money that it would even be profitable to run a tube site, legal or otherwise especially when there is a new tube site popping up every 10 minutes. It seems like the more tube sites, the more fragmented the traffic and even less of a reason for anyone to ever pay for anything. Or am I missing something here? [Link]
The Fly Is Open Member Where in the hell is my grilled cheese? 575 Posts 3/05	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 11:05PM Mike Quasar wrote: just_me wrote: Jeff Mullen wrote: when we released Not Bewitched XXX last September we had 187,000 pirated views of one of the sex scenes the VERY FIRST WEEK...ON ONE TUBE SITE! Click to expand This is why I really do think there is room to adapt. If you were able to recover a mere nickel for every time that was viewed across the net you'd be a happy man. Now if you recovered a quarter for every time!! The potential to go cheap on pricing and make big $$ is there on the internet, 'course granted the producers could ever cooperate with each other... Click to expand That's true but the reason tube sites have such enormous volumes of traffic is because they are free. If everyone paid a nickel, none of us would complain but once you start charging a nickel, they'll all flock to another free site. I would love to know what percentage of the traffic on these tube sites actually converts to paying customers. Logic dictates that this traffic has no value. We'd all love to get millions of eyes on our websites but if the thing drawing them there is a free version of the very thing we're trying to sell.... I don't get it. It makes my head spin. It seems like using free porn to draw traffic to sell porn is an exercise in complete futility. Banners for dating sites and live cams can't be bringing in so much money that it would even be profitable to run a tube site, legal or otherwise especially when there is a new tube site popping up every 10 minutes. It seems like the more tube sites, the more fragmented the traffic and even less of a reason for anyone to ever pay for anything. Or am I missing something here? Click to expand This is why the TV networks joined forces to launch Hulu: to build a viable business model off of that traffic, have control of viewing access to their properties online, and beat the tube sites at their own game. My question is, how long will it be until some studios and websites unite and at least try to do the same thing? Edited by - The Fly Is Open on 8/13/2009 11:08:51 PM [Link]
Mike Quasar Zero Tolerance Reluctant pornographer 1765 Posts 7/01	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 11:12PM I understand the hulu analogy. I use hulu all the time but as has been said before on here, it's unlikely that Proctor and Gamble will ever advertise on a porn site. [Link]
The Fly Is Open Member Where in the hell is my grilled cheese? 575 Posts 3/05	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 11:26PM Mike Quasar wrote: I understand the hulu analogy. I use hulu all the time but as has been said before on here, it's unlikely that Proctor and Gamble will ever advertise on a porn site. Click to expand That may be true, but I don't see many other options to combat the tube sites. [Link]
Mike Quasar Zero Tolerance Reluctant pornographer 1765 Posts 7/01	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 11:28PM The Fly Is Open wrote: Mike Quasar wrote: I understand the hulu analogy. I use hulu all the time but as has been said before on here, it's unlikely that Proctor and Gamble will ever advertise on a porn site. Click to expand That may be true, but I don't see many other options to combat the tube sites. Click to expand Agreed. It's very frustrating. [Link]
Harri Patel Senior Member #SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele 5110 Posts 3/03	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 11:44PM fu_q wrote: ^I do have something of a question, though--for people in the know. Is downloading substantially worse now than it was 3 years ago? I'm not causing trouble--I honestly don't know. Click to expand I'm assuming you're referencing Quasarman's point about sales of the latest U2 and Green Day albums. I don't think there have been any technological developments in the last three years that have made downloading unlicensed copies any easier than it already was. The RIAA's litigation campaign may have deterred some from doing it, but probably infuriated just as many people to the point that they did it more. Call it a wash. I would suspect that with the continued popularity of Apple's iTunes service and the introduction of the iPhone, authorized downloads have probably increased significantly in the last three years. As far as I'm concerned, U2's latest album tanked because it sucked. And the previous one sold a lot because it was good. I'm not familiar enough with the new Green Day record to comment on it. [Link]
JohnHenry Member 165 Posts 3/09	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 11:54PM just_me wrote: Piracy is the biggest problem. When it was ruled in courts a couple years ago that webmasters have zero liability, near zero responsibility for user uploaded content, including adult material, that is when piracy unraveled out of control. The porn industry is at such a disadvantage compared to the movie and music industry, who can advertise their products in a wide variety of places. Click to expand This is doubly complicated; the 'courts' usually refer to US (and occasionally, UK, Australian, and sometimes EU courts.) ThePirateBay is based in Sweden. Any tube site can be hosted in any number of non-extradition countries (Latin America, Russia, Eastern Europe, Asia, etc etc.) Even laws against tube site usage in the US are unlikely to prevent it's citizens from going on sites hosted in foreign countries. There's really only a couple solutions in my mind. First off, we regulate our border already. We permit legal goods (I'll say products here) in and out of our country. A copy of the Koran is a legal product. The Anarchist's cookbook is a legal product. Classified US government documents on how to detonate a nuclear bomb are not legal products. Tshirts that say Nike (when made in sweatshops by gang bosses in Bangkok) are not legal products. Video uploaded illegally to a tube site and streamed into the US from Latvia... not a legal product. I'd support a national firewall, instituted at all major hubs linking the US internet with the rest of the world. Hell, let the RIAA pay for it. Hell, the government already monitors all chatter coming in and out of the US on some level or another, and while we have an expectation of privacy within the US, anything crossing our borders are subject to inspection already. I'm a libertarian. I generally believe the government restricting free speech is a bad thing. I also believe people yelling FIRE in a crowded theater is worse, and stiff laws against such activities are necessary. Customers stealing products because 'they can' because 'the company charges too much' because 'I can't afford it' is exactly why costs across the media board are being ratcheted up. Everyone thinks they deserve Rolls Royce quality products and services, at K-mart prices. I believe in prosecution of people (people, actual humans who own servers, who promote illegal file sharing) who facilitate file sharing. Think porn costs too much otherwise? Try making it, see how much THAT costs you. John [Link]
Mike Quasar Zero Tolerance Reluctant pornographer 1765 Posts 7/01	Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 11:57PM It isn't necessarily easier but it's a more common practice for sure. I read recently that paid downloads through itunes and all other authorized sites is less than 15 percent combined of what's actually being downloaded. That leaves a whole lot of people getting their music illegally and for free. [Link]
JohnHenry Member 165 Posts 3/09	Posted - Aug 14 2009 : 12:02AM The Fly Is Open wrote: I don't think that piracy is the main culprit for the rough times the industry is going through. The fact is piracy is not as rampant as some people are led to believe, and that most people will pay a fair price for a product they deem as worthy; the fact that mainstream motion picture revenues are still strong is an indicator of this. Click to expand When's the last time you sat down in a movie theater with a couple of buddies or a date, to watch the latest "Semen Sippers." Motion pictures aren't suffering from box office sales (as badly) because they still offer a social experience. Porn is inherently not a social experience; US consumers just don't go out to do dinner, porn, and dancing with the family. Compare porn piracy to video game piracy. Sure, there are ways to rig your Xbox to play pirated video games you've downloaded, but it's a hassle and risks ruining your Xbox. There's gear that must be bought, there's chips that must be installed, and doing so generally makes it impossible to play online. It's just too much of a pain, so people shrug their shoulders, plop down $50 (or $60 or $70) for a disc, and play the game. If it was that complicated of a process to pirate music and video, it would be that rare. John [Link]
shalalin Senior Member 1737 Posts 11/07	Posted - Aug 14 2009 : 2:43AM Frankly, any industry members who (like Jeff Mullen apparently) believe that oversaturation isn't a major problem at least on the level of piracy are deluding themselves. (Either about the issue as such, or about how unique their own content actually is in the minds of porn consumers.) It's unfortunate that quality companies such as, say, Elegant Angel and Zero Tolerance are caught in the crosshairs, but as for the overall DVD market - who on Earth still pays $15+ for a single DVD full of cookie-cutter assembly line porn, when a few dollars more can get you a month-long subscription to some place like Reality Kings whose stuff may be just as cookie-cutter, but with much greater variety and 40+ scenes for that month, to boot (not to mention availability of their archives)? If there's one thing the progression from Napster to Itunes et al. has taught, it's that the group of "pirates" is largely made up of two groups of people - those who are frustrated at not being able to buy stuff the way they want (mainly on a single-track basis for the music industry, for porn also the all-you-can-eat crowd) and those who are never going to pay for it anyway. The former group is still roundly ignored by many DVD-based porn producers* (and no, full-movie VOD downloads "for rent" that cost nearly as much as the DVD don't count, and ridiculously overpriced PPV packages definitely don't either). And the latter group - 187,000 visits may have been registered on that one tube video page, but how many actual, interested viewers did that constitute?** And how many of those would actually be willing to pay one cent for that scene (if it even was available à la carte, itunes-style)? Even if you somehow managed to remove 99% of all pirated porn content from the net, the level of oversaturation - combined with the easy and comparatively cheap availability of direct-to-web porn, not to mention free amateur content - likely means you oughtn't count on all that many additional DVD customers from that. People watch a lot more free stuff than they'd ever be willing to pay for, even if the free stuff went away. * Notable exceptions that come to mind are New Sensations who have had a big web presence for a long time and have really stepped things up over the last year or two, and Zero Tolerance with ZTOD - haven't been back yet since the relaunch (I had a sub a while ago), but it's definitely on the agenda. But sorry, just not interested in buying physical DVDs anymore, even quality stuff such as ZT's. (And yes, I realize that my anti-DVD bias is larger than that of the average consumer, but that doesn't change my overall point about the oversaturation with interchangeable DVD content, it just means that ZT may actually have a shot at hanging on to those average consumers, unlike many, many other production companies.) ** Here I'm talking about the umpteen thousand clicks likely added by Google et al. indexing that page over and over, people surfing the Tube site and mindlessly clicking on anything that looks interesting without actually being interested in it, people who didn't actually like what they saw of that scene (hey, it can happen, I hear), people who liked it so much they clicked the scene over and over the next days, etc... Edited by - shalalin on 8/14/2009 2:57:56 AM [Link]

Author

Post

word
Member

21 Posts
8/09

Posted - Aug 10 2009 : 4:25PM

Tough times in the porn industry
Pirating and the economy are cutting earnings by up to 50% and actor rates are being slashed considerably.
How can the porn industry compete with free porn, which is every where online. The music industry has the same problem and most musicians depend on concerts, endorsements, apparel sales and side projects to earn their living.
What is the future of adult entertainment?
edited to make clickable link
Edited by - BigBobxxx on Aug 11 2009

[Link]

imsorry
Deactivated User

Fortune presents gifts not according to the book.
43 Posts
8/09

Posted - Aug 10 2009 : 6:48PM

my guess: more censorship. I think that eventually something will be set up along government lines and they'll go too far in making things safe for the public, akin to the Chinese situation. Porn industry's going belly up...get it now while it's still around.

[Link]

fu_q

All-Star Member

Marv Montag (@PornOfYore)
2506 Posts
2/09

Posted - Aug 10 2009 : 7:04PM

You might find a lot of the info in this thread interesting:
https://forum.adultdvdtalk.com/forum/topic.dlt/whichpage=1/topic_id=134288/forum_id=1/cat_id=1/134288.htm
Some industry people were involved, and a lot of aspects of the industry's current state were discussed.

[Link]

Dean Wormer
Senior Member

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
1048 Posts
7/04

Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 1:28AM

I've noticed that by the time the mainstream media covers a porn story (with the exception of HIV news) it's generally about a year after it's been thoroughly discussed on porn boards/sites.

[Link]

Cuddly Wombat
Senior Member

Just another bare bum in the shiower
1739 Posts
12/04

Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 8:05AM

I am thinking it will follow the music route, with more feature dancing, live sex(cam) shows, porn conventions, escorting and apparrel (t-shirts and worn panties) sales.

[Link]

Gr8Gonzo
Member

199 Posts
6/09

Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 8:38AM

Great link.
#1 Eliminate Piracy
#2 Manage the endless flow of 18 year olds entering porn, let's face it as mention here on ADT in another post every 18 year old seems to be in porn. The more girls the less jobs per girl.
#3 Will push girl's to accept shoots that they were unwilling to do before.
#4 Euro girl's are able more than ever to travel to US for shoots.

Edited by - Gr8Gonzo on 8/11/2009 8:44:33 AM

[Link]

Jaktarn
Senior Member

4798 Posts
5/05

Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 10:13AM

Gr8Gonzo: I thought Bush had changed something in the immigration laws making it harder for Euro girls getting work permits in the US? And that would also be the reason for the sudden drop of euro girls in Us porn the last couple of years? I believe it was a lot more common maybe 4-5 years ago?

[Link]

fu_q

All-Star Member

Marv Montag (@PornOfYore)
2506 Posts
2/09

Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 10:32AM

^I think that Pornlaw mentioned it a couple of times, but I don't remember the specifics. Did it have to do with the 2257 stuff?

[Link]

Gr8Gonzo
Member

199 Posts
6/09

Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 10:34AM

No clue, that also includes US producers going overseas. Most every major studio and site has eurogirl scenes and/or sites.

[Link]

Jaktarn
Senior Member

4798 Posts
5/05

Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 10:34AM

Dont remember but would like to find out.

[Link]

pornlaw
Member

578 Posts
10/05

Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 10:41AM

fu_q is correct... 2257 requires US ID for a US based producer. US producers can go overseas to produce and use euro talent but cannot import them until they have the necessary work permits and visa. If they dont have the necessary docs it is an immigration violation as well as a violation of 18 USC 2257 if the producer is ever inspected.
Michael
www.AdultBizLaw.com
www.2257Safe.com

[Link]

Gr8Gonzo
Member

199 Posts
6/09

Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 10:43AM

Thanks, so the question is are more permits and visa's being issued to eurogirls who might work at a lower rate?

[Link]

Jaktarn
Senior Member

4798 Posts
5/05

Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 11:12AM

I dont think so at the moment? US goverment probably dont think too highly of porn to start shutting down tubesites or making it easier for eurochicks to enter the country and make it more profitable for the producers. Porn will have to stand on their own legs at least the goverment will make it look like that.

[Link]

Rosco Fuji
Deactivated User

On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick!
3309 Posts
2/09

Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 5:11PM

Porn is no different than any other business during a recession/depression/economic downturn. Everyone suffers and some will fail. The ones that survive do so by coming up with new ways to keep getting the product to the consumers. I remember dialogue between Johnny Depp and Danny Trejo. Depp was asking Trejo to do something and then asked him, "Are you a MexiCan or a MexiCan't?" The companies that will survive the current downturn aren't sitting around whining about Piracy and free content on the web, they're planning their next move as a MexiCan! Let's review the past 25 years or so, shall we?
VCRs become mainstream. Prediction: the death of Hollywood as noone will go to the movies. Reality: Hollywood still alive and kicking. Porn Theaters die, home viewing increases, production increases, Video Queens are born.
Napster allows for exchange of music files. Prediction: Death of the music industry. Reality: you can buy almost any song you want for $.99 from places like ITunes or from the Artist's own website.
Porn Piracy is killing the porn industry. Prediction: Free content however crappy on the net is the death of porn. Reality: Piracy is not killing porn, but it does provide an easy scapegoat for an industry that puts out between 10,000-15,000 releases a year. With that many releases out, the non top 5 Brand name companies or so have to get their product advertised to the masses so they'd check it out. They put snippets of their films on the free sites in hopes of catching someone's eye. But the bottom line on most of these snippets is that they suck. You have 20 seconds of the company's name, then maybe 4 minutes of the various shots of the scene and then right before the popshot, scene fades out, and you have the company's name again. Some will download that and spank it off to that, but it truly isn't as satisfying as watching an Andi Anderson, Bree, Faye, Katja, Kylie etc in a full release. Really not much different than the trailer that you see on the average DVD. What is truly causing the economic decline in the porn industry is and always will be crappy product. Burn me once or twice with a misleading release and you won't be seeing repeat business. Pure and simple. 10,000 new releases, 6 scenes per = 60,000 scenes. After a while, it's going through the motions and it shows in the end release. That why companies like RLD or PXP are no longer the powerhouses they are, started going through the motions just putting out product to put out product. Regardless of how much back content is available on the web, the viewing public wants new product and new girls. Its the nature of the business. As much as I liked someone 10 years ago, I'm still going to be looking for someone newer and more extreme. For companies to survive, they have to get past the standard format of 2 good scenes and 4 crappy ones in a release. What I would do if I was a "brand name player" in the porn world, is I'd be eyeing up what companies has the strongest back catalog that I could pick up for the least amount of cash. I'd start an ITunes type of scene site and sell per scene. I'd love to pick and choose individual scenes from Bree Olson or Chelsie Rae or Andi Anderson's Brother Load scene without having to search the store for that title. The companies that are to survive in the next decade already realize this and are most likely planning on this very idea.
On a unrelated note, all girls entering into porn should be shown that article as far as what not to do. Savannah started making some easy cash and the first thing she gets is a 350 SLK, probably has a half dozen LV bags and purses to go along with all the Chanel and Dior sunglasses. Business slows down and she's relegated to almost being a bargain basement has been with nothing to show for it. As is with most cash in cash out jobs, easy come easy go. Only in this case; video, porn, and the web go on forever.
Edited by - rosco fuji on 8/11/2009 5:12:24 PM
Edited by - rosco fuji on 8/11/2009 5:13:54 PM
Edited by - rosco fuji on 8/11/2009 5:14:41 PM
Edited by - rosco fuji on 8/11/2009 5:17:33 PM

[Link]

Jaktarn
Senior Member

4798 Posts
5/05

Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 5:16PM

This Itunes idea kind of already exist on bangbros and realitykings with their material with the difference that is cheaper and on a flatrate. And I think you are right about companies being able to survive eventhough piracy.

[Link]

jrv
Senior Member

1266 Posts
2/03

Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 6:36PM

Web porn sites are rendering immigration issues meaningless. You can download videos from MoreGonzo, PressPlay and other sites that have euro babes doing circus acts that can't be filmed in the US.
Moreover why spend the money to bring the girls to LA when it's cheaper to buy a scene produced in Europe or Russia, or wherever she's from, and include that in a US release?
I personally don't think the economy has much to do with it. I think the #1 issue is competition from free smut online (which may or may not be pirated), piracy, and the transition to a new business model (web downloads vs physical DVD distribution)

[Link]

irontuna
Member

So many redheads, so little time.
319 Posts
7/09

Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 8:27PM

I think Rosco Fuji has it exactly right on all points. However, I also suspect Savannah Stern can't get work because there are perhaps 200 more girls vieing for the same shoot as even just 5 years ago. As was mentioned, it seems that as soon as a girl turns 18 they are with an agency ready to shoot porn. While that increases the "new faces", to me it has also contributes to much of what I dislike in porn today. Most of the new girls have absolutely no idea of what it takes to turn on an audience and it is more than just sucking and fucking. Those of us who really support the industry know as much. So it is one new face after another and bam they are gone after very tepid performances. In addition I know DVD sales are down. I have contributed to that by using VOD. However I am increasing dissatisfied with VOD (buffering, poor quality format etc.) that I have once again decided to buy videos. I think this will be a trend and DVD sales will increase along with the upturn in the economy. Finally, Piracy remains a problem. Brandon Irons posts on this site regularly and has pointed out how piracy has affected his business. I am not smart enough to know all the answers, but piracy greatly affected the music industry and it seems to have weathered it with the purchase of song tracks and live performances. I believe porn will do so as well. The I tunes model seems like a way of going. In porn perhaps it should be the Pie tunes upload site.

[Link]

Jeff Mullen
Member

Hall of Famer -Time to get out
219 Posts
1/08

Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 11:07PM

Yes Rosco Fuji seems to have it right but in reality with all due respect to him he is not even close to being correct. The simple fact is that for an industry that has one product and one product only, free is not a workable business plan. I am amazed at how this industry has laid back and done virtually nothing to help stem the tide. We are much different than the music industry (which I worked in for nearly 20 years before porn) and those that think iTunes is the savior of the music industry are totally wrong. We have our own 'iTunes for porn' and many of those companies will be gone in a few years too just like 90% of the existing porn production companies.
Brazzers, FreeOnes and the like are not doing anybody but themselves a favor and for those companies that are thanking them for the extra traffic they might be getting from a site like Freeones.com are only fooling themselves. Now, I might sound like I am bitter but the truth is that I own one of the companies still making big movies and money but we can see the writing on the wall and we think we will have a very limited future in this business.
It used to be pirated content was the main problem but now many are offering up their entire libraries adding to the problem and glut of free porn which is the main reason the industry is being strangled. The economy is a very distant second. The real kicker here is the Federal Government has done nothing to stop the flow of stolen material and our industry leaders have done very little (just like the music industry in the 90s) to fight against it. Those little FBI signs at the beginning of each movie are a joke and I really think the government has let down and not protected the citizens of the US which is part of the US Constitution. Think about all the little kids that watch free graphic porn (some of it pirated) of all sorts on the internet. Why does the government place zero importance on policing that yet they put producers who own the content through an aerobic exercise to stay compliant in a mountain of excessive paperwork? It truly doesn't make sense but the end result will be no more porn industry which I guess was the government's goal from the jump.
I love this industry and the people in it and have a lot of fun working in it but can't believe it will all be over in a few years. Adapt or die they say but I ask adapt to what? The person that figures that out is going to be very wealthy.

[Link]

elgringoviejo58
Senior Member

1460 Posts
1/07

Posted - Aug 11 2009 : 11:11PM

Haven's NA and ZZ adapted to the new realities of the 21st century jizzbizz?

[Link]

Rosco Fuji
Deactivated User

On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick!
3309 Posts
2/09

Posted - Aug 12 2009 : 1:26AM

Jeff Mullen wrote:
Yes Rosco Fuji seems to have it right but in reality with all due respect to him he is not even close to being correct. The simple fact is that for an industry that has one product and one product only, free is not a workable business plan. I am amazed at how this industry has laid back and done virtually nothing to help stem the tide. We are much different than the music industry (which I worked in for nearly 20 years before porn) and those that think iTunes is the savior of the music industry are totally wrong. We have our own 'iTunes for porn' and many of those companies will be gone in a few years too just like 90% of the existing porn production companies.
Brazzers, FreeOnes and the like are not doing anybody but themselves a favor and for those companies that are thanking them for the extra traffic they might be getting from a site like Freeones.com are only fooling themselves. Now, I might sound like I am bitter but the truth is that I own one of the companies still making big movies and money but we can see the writing on the wall and we think we will have a very limited future in this business.
It used to be pirated content was the main problem but now many are offering up their entire libraries adding to the problem and glut of free porn which is the main reason the industry is being strangled. The economy is a very distant second. The real kicker here is the Federal Government has done nothing to stop the flow of stolen material and our industry leaders have done very little (just like the music industry in the 90s) to fight against it. It truly doesn't make sense but the end result will be no more porn industry which I guess was the government's goal from the jump.
Adapt or die they say but I ask adapt to what? The person that figures that out is going to be very wealthy.
Click to expand

Well, I agree and disagree with you Jeff. And I feel I'm more correct than you'd like to think I'm very good at overall analysis and evaluations. Yes, the "free" idea will obviously not support the industry, but at no point did I say it would. You say it yourself, that Brazzers isn't doing anyone a favor but themselves. You also say it yourself in the last sentence. The people who are adapting are the ones who will survive and comeback stronger and wealthier. Is your company doing anything to change and survive, or are you just waiting for the end to come? Blaming the Govt for the downfall of porn is a copout. You know they aren't going to be doing anything other than the 2247 checks, so instead of complaining about it, are you doing anything about it? The bottom line is if you put out a decent product, charge a reasonable price, and make it easy for people to get, you will survive. You mentioned Itunes for porn, how does that work? Can I buy individual scenes or am I stuck buying a whole movie for the one scene that I truly want?
Edited by - rosco fuji on 8/12/2009 1:27:47 AM

[Link]

BrekkyDJ
Member

Australia
246 Posts
10/06

Posted - Aug 12 2009 : 2:32AM

In a way (as pointed out earlier) the Industry does have itself to blame for this down trend.
Like any industry, if you flood the market with a certain product it will kill companies.
Everyone gets competitive and instead of a limited number of quality product coming out, you get a flood of cheaper product.
Soon the Consumer hits back saying they refuse to pay the same price for what is an inferior product.
So one company reacts and drops their price and everyone flocks to them. Like it or not other companies follow and a battle of wills begin.
Things will not stabilize until a number of companies drop off and the balance of "Supply and Demand" can be restored.
This slump will last for awhile, as because there is so much free/pirate porn out there, it's going to take people awhile to get thru it all before they are bored with it.
In a sense maybe the porn industry has to put the brakes on production for awhile (though I know it will hurt a number of people) to restore balance.
As pointed out A-List porn stars will continue to trade thru this because of their name.
Example: Kylie Ireland I would imagine would still be going OK not just because of her name, but her service/personal touch - that being chatting to the fans here... a good way to give your personal 'business' a good reputation.
Thoughts?
BrekkyDJ (in Melbourne, Australia - any stars coming to Sexpo in November?)

[Link]

imsorry
Deactivated User

Fortune presents gifts not according to the book.
43 Posts
8/09

Posted - Aug 12 2009 : 2:57AM

^"Odi profanum vulgus et arceo; Favete linguis; carmina non prius Audita Musarum sacerdos Virginibus puerisque canto"

[Link]

The Fly Is Open
Member

Where in the hell is my grilled cheese?
575 Posts
3/05

Posted - Aug 12 2009 : 9:53AM

I don't think that piracy is the main culprit for the rough times the industry is going through. The fact is piracy is not as rampant as some people are led to believe, and that most people will pay a fair price for a product they deem as worthy; the fact that mainstream motion picture revenues are still strong is an indicator of this. Neither are porn's problems contemporaneous with the music industry's. The record business put themselves in their mess in their attempt to phase out singles and EPs in favor of albums at the advent of CDs, then resisting the inevitable shift to digital downloads; the Clear Channelization of radio and MTV's transformation from music programming to tabloid chatter and reality shows also weakened that industry's two biggest promotional outlets. Rather, porn is where the gaming industry was 25 years ago, with a glut of years' worth of bad product overwhelming whatever good is on the marketplace and turning away the consumer. The big difference is that whereas millions of Atari 2600 cartridges met a final resting place at the bottom of a landfill, the porn consumers don't want to pay for is ending up on Rapidshare, torrents, and tube sites for free, which those consumers then don't seem to mind.
Ultimately, the industry players will have to make a deal with the tube sites to allow some content on the sites in exchange for the removal of pirated material. Media companies realized they couldn't beat YouTube and joined them, and porn producers will have to do the same in order to compete. Beyond that, the industry has to put an emphasis on superior production values that can't be achieved with amateur content, and web companies have to provide a la carte/on demand access to individual scenes at a reasonable charge alongside full subscriptions.

[Link]

Jeff Mullen
Member

Hall of Famer -Time to get out
219 Posts
1/08

Posted - Aug 12 2009 : 11:26PM

The Fly is Open writes:
"I don't think that piracy is the main culprit for the rough times the industry is going through. The fact is piracy is not as rampant as some people are led to believe,...."
Well I would like to point out to Mr. Fly and others that when we released Not Bewitched XXX last September we had 187,000 pirated views of one of the sex scenes the VERY FIRST WEEK...ON ONE TUBE SITE! Now I am not saying that all of those first week free-loaders would have purchased the movie, but some would and when you multiply that by numerous weeks and hundreds and thousands of titles being pirated and the proliferation of numerous free sites that's a lot of money out of my company and other people's pockets. X-Play paid for the production, post and marketing costs of the movie yet 187,000 people watched it for free in one week on one site alone.
With that said, anybody that doesn't believe that piracy with the tubes and the torrent sites is not a big problem has their head so far up their ass that they might want to join the circus. And with all due respect to Mr. Fly and the many others that think the over saturation of the market or the economy is the main problem with declining sales I can tell you I don't buy it for a minute.
On an almost funny note, there is a company out there that just received legal notices from X-Play and Hustler about their 'service' of burning a blank white disc with the movie of the consumers' choice and sending it to them for $10. Their marketing angle is that "it comes in a nondescript DVD so that your wife won't find out". HA! Thou Shalt Not Fucking Steal! What ever happened to that commandment lol? I guess nobody gives a shit anymore.
We still care about theft and pay a private company hard earned money each month to pull our copyrighted infringed content off Tubes and Torrent sites. I think every company should be doing that but they don't. All of the comments and arguments that the readers post do make some sense depending on which way you look at the situation but from the perspective of the guy that is paying the bills, to me it is just outright theft.
Now lastly for those that think I am just not 'adapting' to the times, I spend a portion of my week attempting to adapt to the changing times and think into the future for ways to operate in a cashless porn world...I have not figured it out yet. If anybody figures it out please call me first and I will be happy to split the profit with you.- Jeff Mullen AKA Will Ryder.

[Link]

Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 12:08AM

Jeff, don'tcha know you're supposed to do this for free because of your love of the art. Art has no price. Information needs to be free. The Beatles still would have created Sgt.Pepper even without financial compensation. Dark Side of the Moon was a labor of love and I heard that Pink Floyd sent all of the money back that they made from it. When Wolverine was downloaded over a million times before it was even in the theatre, hell, before it was even FINISHED, the director and producers were elated that all of their hard work and talent was being enjoyed by so many without the burden of parting with their hard earned money in this troubled economy. .....Blah blah blah....
Now back to reality. Green Day sold 14 million copies of American Idiot 3 years ago. Their new album has yet to break a million. Does it suck? Are they no longer popular? or maybe, just maybe, 13 million thieving pieces of human waste downloaded it for free. Same with the latest U2 album. Same with anything that can be digitized. You complain about DRM, you complain about "not being able to own what you paid for" but obviously some of you are paying for something and then giving it away to the masses for some reason. If no one uploaded a dvd to Pirate bay or their drm-free membership scenes to tube sites, we wouldn't be having this tired and increasingly redundant conversation. Those of you who pay for a DVD or a CD and then upload it for all to steal are fucking morons and I can't wrap my head around why you do it. And for those who partake in their idiotic largesse, you are thieves. Period. Make all of the rationalizations and justifications that you want; YOU ARE THIEVES. You don't drive away without paying for gas because there are consequences but you will steal a DVD or a song because their are none at the moment. Just as Jeff said, you can warble on with your "adapt or die" mantra but free is free and there is no competing with it. For those of you who still possess some degree of human dignity and pay for what you enjoy, I tip my hat and thank you from the bottom of my heart. Unfortunately there are less and less of you every year. This is just the beginning. Check back in 50 years when there is NOTHING left to download for free because everyone who created anything went out of business years earlier.
end of rant.

[Link]

fu_q

All-Star Member

Marv Montag (@PornOfYore)
2506 Posts
2/09

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 12:59PM

^It's a very serious problem, and there's no obvious solution--quite honestly.
I, personally, don't download any pirated content (music, movies, whatever, ...)
But a lot of people do -- particularly those of the younger generation.
It really does suck, and it may well substantially diminish the adult industry--as well as others--which is a shame.

[Link]

fu_q

All-Star Member

Marv Montag (@PornOfYore)
2506 Posts
2/09

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 1:22PM

^I do have something of a question, though--for people in the know.
Is downloading substantially worse now than it was 3 years ago?
I'm not causing trouble--I honestly don't know.

[Link]

darkko
jonni darkko

1085 Posts
1/05

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 1:27PM

Piracy is the issue! It makes me sick! I never gave anyone permission to put my content up on servers and pass it around like a joint at a dead concert!!! It's theft and needs to be stopped. We are not musicians... we don't tour and sell t-shits. The younger generation doesn't want to pay for anything.
Fuck Bit Torrent! Its is a monster getting away with crime. I am not giving in.
Rosco Fuji, do you create a product that is stolen and handed out for free the first day it is released???
I'm not giving up without a fight!
Jonni

[Link]

Rosco Fuji
Deactivated User

On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick!
3309 Posts
2/09

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 4:40PM

Oh Boo Hoo. No Piracy is not "the" issue. It might be "an" issue but it's not the main cause. I'm not saying it doesn't exist or isn't a concern, but the bigger issue is the unscrupulous nature within the porn industry in general. Several industry people are posting on this thread saying, "my hard work this, my hard work that" which I respect, no problems there. But at what point does the porn industry respect the consumer's hard work on earning the cash to rent/purchase the product, go to the video store to select a product etc? Bottom line, overall it doesn't. The industry is looking to make a quick buck, pure and simple. After getting burned on product/content promised and not delivered numerous times, the consumer has the, "fuck them as I'm tired of getting ripped off" attitude. To further my point on this promised but not delivered idea, here is a couple of lines the from a dvd review I posted a few years ago.
"In addition, the front cover of the disc shows Paris’ pretty face covered with cum. The photo is complete doctored, as there are no scenes on the disc showing Paris with that much cum on her face."
Now I drove the 48 miles total to rent/return this above title and spent an hour searching amongst the thousands upon thousands of titles to make my selection and then spent $3 to rent it. I'm picking it up because I've met Heather Gables at the AEE and I love her work. Imagine my disappointment when at no point is that much cum remotely near Heather's face. What is my recourse at this point? Can you imagine going to the girls in the porn store, "I'd like a credit to my account because there wasn't the promised cum on Heather's face and mouth!"
So Mike, Jeff, and Jonni, on this above title, I'm out between $10-$12 on overall time, gas, and $. If this happens once a week, I've pissed away $500 or so per year, more if I wind up renting more than disk at a time.
What is my recourse? If my dissatisfaction was with one of "your" releases, can I send a refund request to "your" company expressing my dissatisfaction on quality of "your" product, and can I expect to actually see a refund? It's certainly not going to happen at the retail level, as they won't even entertain any notion other than playability issues, and even then, that's almost like pulling teeth.
I'd really be interested in hearing an answer to the above questions. The above example would probably be the main reason a porn viewer would use a download site to get some porn.
Now onto the issue of the actual posting on content onto these sites. Chances are you guys(porn industry, not you guys personally) have to look little further than the end of your noses. If everyone operated in an upstanding manner, you wouldn't have these problems. There are numerous postings on this site about the buddy fucking nature the industry. There are several postings by the guy who did those "25 guys cumming in a girls mouth all at once" titles complaining about the rather light royalty checks from the companies and distributors of his product. I read another by some suitcase guy named Skeeter who's wife did 3 sex scenes in 3 different rooms in 3 different outfits and it was all in "one scene" so the company could get away with only paying her 1 scene's rate. Evidently they were new to the industry at the time. And, a few years ago when there was the Darren James issue and the so called moratorium on shooting for a certain quartine period. A few weeks later, stories started appearing about secret shoots going on, moratorium and performer safety be damned, let's fuck. The unfortunate girls were tossed a few thousand bucks and a good luck. So, those are a few examples of the way people in porn treat other people in porn, so why are you shocked when someone does it to you?
So if you want a reason why material gets posted, don't blame the average person sitting as at home on their laptop, look at those types of scenarios listed above. Its as simple as everyone in the porn industry treating everyone as they wanted to be treated themselves.
This disertion is finished with the following comments:
Don't discount the "Glut" of porn argument, its a bigger factor than you might think
I don't download free stuff porn or otherwise in general from the net as I like to maintain a squeaky clean laptop, but I can see how people do.
The above issues weren't directed personally at Jeff, Mike, or Jonni or the material they produce, but the industry in general.
Lastly; Mike, I find it amusing that you're using Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon, The Beatles' Sgt Pepper, and U2 as a comparison to the porn industry. LOL

Edited by - rosco fuji on 8/13/2009 4:44:04 PM
Edited by - rosco fuji on 8/13/2009 4:50:18 PM

[Link]

imsorry
Deactivated User

Fortune presents gifts not according to the book.
43 Posts
8/09

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 4:52PM

[Link]

Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 4:59PM

I wasn't suggesting that porn and Pink Floyd are artistic equivalents. Of course they're not, my point is that people often justify online theft by complaining about the poor quality of what's out there and yet they also steal music by Pink Floyd and the Beatles and to counter the argument that people will pay for quality. Quality just means it gets stolen faster and more often, hence the disappointing album sales from U2 and Green Day this year.
And if you've been burned by porn companies and their false advertising, your recourse is the same as a consumer of any other product; don't buy from them again.
Edited by - mike quasar on 8/13/2009 5:03:34 PM

[Link]

Rosco Fuji
Deactivated User

On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick!
3309 Posts
2/09

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 5:10PM

First, I just found it amusing that they were mentioned in the same sentence. But what I really find amusing is that comparison is what you actually responded to versus the more relevant valid points I listed before that.
Secondly, your answer to the following question:
What is my recourse? If my dissatisfaction was with one of "your" releases, can I send a refund request to "your" company expressing my dissatisfaction on quality of "your" product, and can I expect to actually see a refund?
is a resounding, "No! You don't like it, Don't buy from them again!"
And you wonder why "your" hard work isn't respected. Most other companies have a return policy if you aren't happy, they usually ask for a chance to make it right.

[Link]

Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 5:15PM

So because some people in the porn business treat each other badly, you should steal from them? That's a new one.

[Link]

Rosco Fuji
Deactivated User

On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick!
3309 Posts
2/09

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 5:29PM

Again Mike, why are you ducking the obivious customer service question of:
What is my recourse? If my dissatisfaction was with one of "your" releases, can I send a refund request to "your" company expressing my dissatisfaction on quality of "your" product, and can I expect to actually see a refund?

[Link]

just_me
Member

133 Posts
4/09

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 5:33PM

Piracy *is* the biggest problem. When it was ruled in courts a couple years ago that webmasters have zero liability, near zero responsibility for user uploaded content, including adult material, that is when piracy unraveled out of control. The porn industry is at such a disadvantage compared to the movie and music industry, who can advertise their products in a wide variety of places.
Type "porn forum" into google and see what the results are. See where the first non-piracy site comes up in the search.
To sell a product, you first have to make someone aware of its existence. How do you do that on the internet? The second step is, you have to give the person a place to buy the product from. Type any porn dvd title into google and see that 90+% of the search results are piracy sites, some titles it's not until the 5th page of links, or greater, before a legitimate retailer is found. Who's going to search through all that when 95% of the results say "download here for free!"
There is one misconception that gets floated around a lot including in this thread, people do not upload what they paid for. People only upload what they obtain for free. From either cracked passwords, and I suspect it's some employee at some retailer "borrowing" a copy of all the new releases. Then when file-sharing hosts turned piracy into a full paying job...
And Rosco Fuji nobody gives refunds on digital content, not the music industry, not the movie industry, not the gaming industry.

[Link]

Stud_Rob
Member

703 Posts
4/09

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 5:34PM

It's quite sad reading that article.

[Link]

Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 5:46PM

First of all, we're not in the practice of deceiving the consumer but if you actually cited a legitimate example of you not receiving what you expected, then yes, we would consider refunding you or offering you another title. Many of us here have worked many years to develop trust from the consumer, well aware that their are many other companies who engage in bait and switch etc. I stand by my argument however that your best course of action is simply boycott the offending company.

[Link]

Rosco Fuji
Deactivated User

On the licking stick, Mr. Magic Dick!
3309 Posts
2/09

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 6:06PM

Thank you for that response Mike.

[Link]

pegpelvispete
Member

286 Posts
6/09

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 7:20PM

How do you even stop torrents? Apart from government intervention, I mean. The file sharing forums seem simple enough. Find the links, report them, links deleted. Although that's a shit-ton of links and forums to go through. But what can you do about a torrent since it's technically not "hosted" anywhere, or at least insofar as I understand it?

[Link]

darkko
jonni darkko

1085 Posts
1/05

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 10:00PM

Mike,
Don't waste your time.... This guy is a hater! unscrupulous?? thats what you call us???
Bye,

[Link]

just_me
Member

133 Posts
4/09

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 10:37PM

This is why I really do think there is room to adapt. If you were able to recover a mere nickel for every time that was viewed across the net you'd be a happy man. Now if you recovered a quarter for every time!! The potential to go cheap on pricing and make big $$ is there on the internet, 'course granted the producers could ever cooperate with each other...

[Link]

Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 10:50PM

That's true but the reason tube sites have such enormous volumes of traffic is because they are free. If everyone paid a nickel, none of us would complain but once you start charging a nickel, they'll all flock to another free site. I would love to know what percentage of the traffic on these tube sites actually converts to paying customers. Logic dictates that this traffic has no value. We'd all love to get millions of eyes on our websites but if the thing drawing them there is a free version of the very thing we're trying to sell.... I don't get it. It makes my head spin. It seems like using free porn to draw traffic to sell porn is an exercise in complete futility. Banners for dating sites and live cams can't be bringing in so much money that it would even be profitable to run a tube site, legal or otherwise especially when there is a new tube site popping up every 10 minutes. It seems like the more tube sites, the more fragmented the traffic and even less of a reason for anyone to ever pay for anything.
Or am I missing something here?

[Link]

The Fly Is Open
Member

Where in the hell is my grilled cheese?
575 Posts
3/05

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 11:05PM

Mike Quasar wrote:
just_me wrote:
Jeff Mullen wrote:
when we released Not Bewitched XXX last September we had 187,000 pirated views of one of the sex scenes the VERY FIRST WEEK...ON ONE TUBE SITE!
Click to expand
This is why I really do think there is room to adapt. If you were able to recover a mere nickel for every time that was viewed across the net you'd be a happy man. Now if you recovered a quarter for every time!! The potential to go cheap on pricing and make big $$ is there on the internet, 'course granted the producers could ever cooperate with each other...
Click to expand
That's true but the reason tube sites have such enormous volumes of traffic is because they are free. If everyone paid a nickel, none of us would complain but once you start charging a nickel, they'll all flock to another free site. I would love to know what percentage of the traffic on these tube sites actually converts to paying customers. Logic dictates that this traffic has no value. We'd all love to get millions of eyes on our websites but if the thing drawing them there is a free version of the very thing we're trying to sell.... I don't get it. It makes my head spin. It seems like using free porn to draw traffic to sell porn is an exercise in complete futility. Banners for dating sites and live cams can't be bringing in so much money that it would even be profitable to run a tube site, legal or otherwise especially when there is a new tube site popping up every 10 minutes. It seems like the more tube sites, the more fragmented the traffic and even less of a reason for anyone to ever pay for anything.
Or am I missing something here?
Click to expand

This is why the TV networks joined forces to launch Hulu: to build a viable business model off of that traffic, have control of viewing access to their properties online, and beat the tube sites at their own game. My question is, how long will it be until some studios and websites unite and at least try to do the same thing?
Edited by - The Fly Is Open on 8/13/2009 11:08:51 PM

[Link]

Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 11:12PM

I understand the hulu analogy. I use hulu all the time but as has been said before on here, it's unlikely that Proctor and Gamble will ever advertise on a porn site.

[Link]

The Fly Is Open
Member

Where in the hell is my grilled cheese?
575 Posts
3/05

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 11:26PM

That may be true, but I don't see many other options to combat the tube sites.

[Link]

Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 11:28PM

Agreed. It's very frustrating.

[Link]

Harri Patel
Senior Member

#SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele
5110 Posts
3/03

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 11:44PM

I'm assuming you're referencing Quasarman's point about sales of the latest U2 and Green Day albums.
I don't think there have been any technological developments in the last three years that have made downloading unlicensed copies any easier than it already was.
The RIAA's litigation campaign may have deterred some from doing it, but probably infuriated just as many people to the point that they did it more. Call it a wash.
I would suspect that with the continued popularity of Apple's iTunes service and the introduction of the iPhone, authorized downloads have probably increased significantly in the last three years.
As far as I'm concerned, U2's latest album tanked because it sucked. And the previous one sold a lot because it was good. I'm not familiar enough with the new Green Day record to comment on it.

[Link]

JohnHenry
Member

165 Posts
3/09

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 11:54PM

This is doubly complicated; the 'courts' usually refer to US (and occasionally, UK, Australian, and sometimes EU courts.) ThePirateBay is based in Sweden. Any tube site can be hosted in any number of non-extradition countries (Latin America, Russia, Eastern Europe, Asia, etc etc.) Even laws against tube site usage in the US are unlikely to prevent it's citizens from going on sites hosted in foreign countries.
There's really only a couple solutions in my mind. First off, we regulate our border already. We permit legal goods (I'll say products here) in and out of our country. A copy of the Koran is a legal product. The Anarchist's cookbook is a legal product. Classified US government documents on how to detonate a nuclear bomb are *not* legal products. Tshirts that say Nike (when made in sweatshops by gang bosses in Bangkok) are *not* legal products. Video uploaded illegally to a tube site and streamed into the US from Latvia... not a legal product. I'd support a national firewall, instituted at all major hubs linking the US internet with the rest of the world. Hell, let the RIAA pay for it. Hell, the government already monitors all chatter coming in and out of the US on some level or another, and while we have an expectation of privacy within the US, anything crossing our borders are subject to inspection already.
I'm a libertarian. I generally believe the government restricting free speech is a bad thing. I also believe people yelling FIRE in a crowded theater is worse, and stiff laws against such activities are necessary. Customers stealing products because 'they can' because 'the company charges too much' because 'I can't afford it' is exactly why costs across the media board are being ratcheted up. Everyone thinks they deserve Rolls Royce quality products and services, at K-mart prices. I believe in prosecution of people (people, actual humans who own servers, who promote illegal file sharing) who facilitate file sharing.
Think porn costs too much otherwise? Try making it, see how much THAT costs you.
John

[Link]

Mike Quasar
Zero Tolerance

Reluctant pornographer
1765 Posts
7/01

Posted - Aug 13 2009 : 11:57PM

It isn't necessarily easier but it's a more common practice for sure. I read recently that paid downloads through itunes and all other authorized sites is less than 15 percent combined of what's actually being downloaded. That leaves a whole lot of people getting their music illegally and for free.

[Link]

JohnHenry
Member

165 Posts
3/09

Posted - Aug 14 2009 : 12:02AM

When's the last time you sat down in a movie theater with a couple of buddies or a date, to watch the latest "Semen Sippers."
Motion pictures aren't suffering from box office sales (as badly) because they still offer a social experience. Porn is inherently not a social experience; US consumers just don't go out to do dinner, porn, and dancing with the family.
Compare porn piracy to video game piracy. Sure, there are ways to rig your Xbox to play pirated video games you've downloaded, but it's a hassle and risks ruining your Xbox. There's gear that must be bought, there's chips that must be installed, and doing so generally makes it impossible to play online. It's just too much of a pain, so people shrug their shoulders, plop down $50 (or $60 or $70) for a disc, and play the game.
If it was that complicated of a process to pirate music and video, it *would* be that rare.
John

[Link]

shalalin
Senior Member

1737 Posts
11/07

Posted - Aug 14 2009 : 2:43AM

Frankly, any industry members who (like Jeff Mullen apparently) believe that oversaturation isn't a major problem at least on the level of piracy are deluding themselves. (Either about the issue as such, or about how unique their own content actually is in the minds of porn consumers.) It's unfortunate that quality companies such as, say, Elegant Angel and Zero Tolerance are caught in the crosshairs, but as for the overall DVD market - who on Earth still pays $15+ for a single DVD full of cookie-cutter assembly line porn, when a few dollars more can get you a month-long subscription to some place like Reality Kings whose stuff may be just as cookie-cutter, but with much greater variety and 40+ scenes for that month, to boot (not to mention availability of their archives)?
If there's one thing the progression from Napster to Itunes et al. has taught, it's that the group of "pirates" is largely made up of two groups of people - those who are frustrated at not being able to buy stuff the way they want (mainly on a single-track basis for the music industry, for porn also the all-you-can-eat crowd) and those who are never going to pay for it anyway. The former group is still roundly ignored by many DVD-based porn producers* (and no, full-movie VOD downloads "for rent" that cost nearly as much as the DVD don't count, and ridiculously overpriced PPV packages definitely don't either). And the latter group - 187,000 visits may have been registered on that one tube video page, but how many actual, interested viewers did that constitute?** And how many of those would actually be willing to pay one cent for that scene (if it even was available à la carte, itunes-style)? Even if you somehow managed to remove 99% of all pirated porn content from the net, the level of oversaturation - combined with the easy and comparatively cheap availability of direct-to-web porn, not to mention free amateur content - likely means you oughtn't count on all that many additional DVD customers from that. People watch a lot more free stuff than they'd ever be willing to pay for, even if the free stuff went away.
* Notable exceptions that come to mind are New Sensations who have had a big web presence for a long time and have really stepped things up over the last year or two, and Zero Tolerance with ZTOD - haven't been back yet since the relaunch (I had a sub a while ago), but it's definitely on the agenda. But sorry, just not interested in buying physical DVDs anymore, even quality stuff such as ZT's. (And yes, I realize that my anti-DVD bias is larger than that of the average consumer, but that doesn't change my overall point about the oversaturation with interchangeable DVD content, it just means that ZT may actually have a shot at hanging on to those average consumers, unlike many, many other production companies.)
** Here I'm talking about the umpteen thousand clicks likely added by Google et al. indexing that page over and over, people surfing the Tube site and mindlessly clicking on anything that looks interesting without actually being interested in it, people who didn't actually like what they saw of that scene (hey, it can happen, I hear), people who liked it so much they clicked the scene over and over the next days, etc...
Edited by - shalalin on 8/14/2009 2:57:56 AM

[Link]