Bluto and Big Scots Man, please can it before this gets out of control! The moderators have enough work on their plates without this fight starting! Try some of this instead (preferably to a good BDSM scene): Edited by - mharris127 on 5/5/2010 8:20:55 PM
Since when is it an argument of "semantics", over whether or not what Max does to young women is "abuse"? Consensual yes, but you're judgment has to be impaired to think not. Especially when his brand of porn not only admits, but brags and boasts it. I think that it's completely possible for one to consent to another "abusing" them. Personally, I don't know which cause is more "noble", it's hard to rank them as one more important than the other, but I certainly wouldn't see abusive/degrading porn as somehow being more trivial than the others. I'm glad to hear at least someone here acknowledge the fact that to many people, this isn't a "trivial issue", though. ------
So when is it not abuse? When you say so? How do you know you're not raping your wife (Assuming you have one) even though she consents?
In my book, it's not really abuse unless the person who has been subjected to it thinks it is. Your opinion really means shit unless you were one of Max's costars. We've apparently heard from some of them but it seems pretty clear a lot of them couldn't care less. I'm perfectly ready to stand corrected as soon as we have about 50 of Max's former costars agreeing with you that they had no right to agree to let him do those things to them. Edited by - randomprecision on 5/8/2010 3:56:39 AM
Maybe if you learned how to quote properly? Most of your posts are a complete mess and it's impossible to tell who said what without reading two pages of posts before yours. Edited by - randomprecision on 5/9/2010 6:28:06 AM
It is actually quite hard to learn to quote properly on here, especially when you need to cut down a large post to the two lines pertaining to yours. Keeping who posted what is quite hard as well with the linear system in place here. Maybe a stickied lesson is in order, RP.
Let's not try to and place me as the lone individual here who thinks these acts of extremism involving varying amounts pain and humiliation isn't abuse. Lets say for instance, I slap my wife across the face during sex. She doesn't like it, but says nothing because she wants to satisfy me. Is it abuse? Quite clearly. That's the situation you most commonly have here, in regards to porn of the MH brand. I know I'm not the only one who has a hard to believing that the majority of these 18 year olds taking a thorough beating from him are "genuienly" enjoying the pain and humiliation, all while they're constantly grimacing and fighting tears, or while they look completely frozen and lifeless in the process. Yes, they consent to it. Why? The vast majority of the time, the paycheck. Because, would they do it for free? Hell no. I wasn't talking about their right, anyway. I was talking about his perceived "right". He's the initiator, that's what's important to remember here. Quite honestly, if were a "costar", I probably wouldn't spend the remainder of my life dwelling on the shitty experience either... or I wouldn't go around saying "Max Hardcore ruined my life", at least, if I wanted to sustain a career making paychecks in porn. I think that's pretty obvious. How many of them go around complaining about things they did for money in a porn shoot that they didn't like? That's usually reserved for when their five year run is up and they've "quit". I would think my opinion means shit, when I can say with confidence that the majority would agree with me, (obviously I'm not talking about a minority on a message like adultdvdtalk, swarming with porn insiders and addicts) and that's exactly why Max is in prison right now. Edited by - echoplex on 5/14/2010 9:37:25 PM
I honestly don't care what the majority thinks. The majority voted for George Bush. Twice. Having a bunch of dimwits on your side isn't exactly something you should be proud of. Anyway, there are apparently some things I didn't know about Max's videos when these debates started. I still have no idea what was in the videos that were shown to the jury and I'm honestly not gonna go out of my way to see it now just to have the edge in the debate. I judge Max from what I know about his post 2000 work (which isn't a whole lot). But from what I've seen, I think he got more of a bad reputation for the things he said in his movies than what he actually did. Other people have made movies with slapping, gagging, spitting and even puking. Some of them slapped the women a lot harder than Max did in any of the clips I've seen. Max was obviously trying to offend people and he succeeded. I was also unable to tell if the girls in the Max clips I saw were acting or not. It's not that hard to grimace when what's happening actually is a bit unpleasant. That doesn't mean there isn't some acting going on. We see crying in movies all the time without realizing it's acting so who's to say? Hell, even Glen Beck can do it. It's probably not fake but there's really no way to know unless the girl pipes up and says it wasn't. As far as whether anyone would let some old fart slap them and call them names for nothing? Again, what does that really matter? Would porn girls do any of what they do for free? Would you do whatever you do for a living for free? Do you think most people enjoy their work? Fuck no. Most people hate what they do, hate their bosses, hate everything about it. So being miserable at work isn't necessarily a good criteria for what's abuse and what isn't. And unless you're one of those people who believes all porn is abuse, you must be pretty naive if you think most of them enjoy any of what they're doing. Here's a hint. The fake moaning sounds fake because it probably is. In reality, they're probably anything from really bored to really uncomfortable and just waiting for it to be over. I'm just giving the girls the benefit of the doubt. I think women are typically smarter than men in these things and if they really had that much of a problem with it, they probably wouldn't do it. Those who are foolish enough to go into a scene with a guy like Max without having checked him out won't do it again if they have a bad time. Edited by - randomprecision on 5/15/2010 8:35:56 AM
Those dimwit majority, they voted for Barrack Obama! Whether or not you take that to be a good thing or bad thing. The majority are never dead on about everything, but for the most part they tend to lean more towards rationality than not. Of course, your statement really is irrelevant. But I feel comfortable to say the majority of that percentage that voted against W. Bush both times would probably share my sentiment on this mater.In short, he had some anorexic 18 year old in tears, somewhere between pissing on her, slapping her, and calling her a worthless piece of shit again and again. I find it pretty easy to tell when a reaction is fake in porn, because the majority of the time the "acting", is horrible done. Her reaction was not faked.An unfortunate growing trend, yes. But one that's often credited to Max himself! Don't ask me why it's more often met with acceptance and praise when it's not Max doing it, I don't know. But I don't believe at all that Max's goal was to "offend people". I think he, as well as others who do it, are simply catering to their own interests, and subsequently the ever growing market for getting off seeing women abused, degraded and humiliated.But again we're talking about porn. When has "acting" in porn ever felt genuine? From what I've seen, it's like they don't even try.This retort is so often used in porn debate. Comparing the conditions of porn, to things that are nothing alike. But just to humor you, Image your typical 9 to 5 with a baisc job description was no more. Instead, you had an agent who called you up, and said he had a really shit-stained bathroom for you to clean up, and oh yeah, you'll get shit smeared in your face too, maybe even have to eat it. Imagine the point of your job, things done to you, abuse and humiliation; all just to fuck with you. Then the final product, a tool of masturbation for the entire world. Then you might have a case, comparing their experiences to your job. Nevermind the fact that porn isn't so much a "career" as it's often made out to be, as many of your typical MH contestants likely never aquire any kind of real wealth in thier three to five year runs. I think it has more in common with a drug experimentation phase than it does and actual career. I'd be willing to bet they don't quit their day jobs, for long anyways.You say you give women the benefit of the doubt for being smarter, but you also admit to knowing that most just do things they aren't enjoying and most often are just waiting for it to end. Interesting. I think you're giving the wrong women the benefit of the doubt. The thing about the industry is that the women that end up in it, are the ones who will do these things for money, even if they hate them. Most women wouldn't do them, even for a great sum of money, much less what they are really paid. Edited by - echoplex on 5/15/2010 11:34:26 PM
Before I get into responding to this, I should say I've been through all of this too many times with too many people and there's really nothing new to say on either side. Therefore, this will likely be my final response. You'll have to excuse me if it's a bit short but if you're really interested, there are multiple Max threads where all of this has been drug out over and over and it's as close as the search button. The main point was stated earlier in this thread when I stated my belief that Max is an aberration in that he probably did go too far with some girls. But it's really hard to know how many because most of them don't seem to be talking. At least not here.The point was that a majority doesn't really mean jack shit. You can have 50 to 1 and all 50 of them could very easily be wrong. Having greater numbers doesn't make you right. It just makes you loud.I guess it's nice that you have magical powers but from the perspective of a mere mortal, I can't always tell. Unless I'm in the room when it's shot, I assume I'm not seeing and hearing everything.Actually, I don't think it's a growing trend. There is some gagging in porn but it seems to have really toned down in the last couple of years.I don't know if you're doing it on purpose but you do have a talent for dodging the obvious. Unfortunately, it's rather common.I've seen some stuff where I honestly couldn't tell. I've also seen some that was only barely perceptibly fake but was still enjoyable because it seemed like the girls were having fun and doing an admirable acting job simultaneously.I have a perfect case because I'd just say no. This scenario of yours is completely fictional. If a girl doesn't want to do porn, there are other things she can do. It might be a shitty job but there won't be any sex. I also don't believe Max would have been the only one hiring at the time. The porn business was still rockin during most of Max's years. The girls who worked with him either chose to or chose not to do their homework to find someone more pleasant to work for.Different people have different priorities and different lifestyles. Most men probably wouldn't do porn either but we don't hear anything about them from folks like you. Never. Most of the time, the male in the scene is just a hired dick and has nothing to do with the decision making process. He is doing exactly the same thing the woman is doing.
If Max's productions were but a mere audio track of him speaking about all the acts he visioned in his head, maybe I and others would agree with you on this point. The government absolutely has a role to play in protecting one person from another, as well as from themselves. Like for an example do you support minimum wage laws? If a poor person agrees to work for 25 cents an hour, who is the government to limit that right? Do you support spousal abuse laws? If the wife consents to weekly beatings, who is the government to say that should not happen? What is your take on seatbelt laws? Workplace sexual harassment laws? Try reading your state's constitution sometime, you might be surprised what they grant themselves the rights to do. ...slippery slope my ass One person's rights and freedoms pretty much always infringes on another person's rights and freedoms. What we agree to as a society is always a balancing act. The first amendment protects someone's right to call President Obama a radical Muslim born outside of the United States. Protecting Max's right to shove a girl's face into piss & vomit? I don't think so. I'll present you with another scenario, say where you live, ever morning your neighbor wakes up, walks outside, drops trou, and defecates on his lawn - what do you do? Do you ignore it, chalk it up to freedom of expression? You would be defending him over concerns of a slippery slope if the government takes away his rights to express himself through defecation, correct? I want to know just how much you hold true to the core beliefs of your argument. Edited by - just_me on 5/16/2010 5:16:38 PM
^ Well said. Glad to see there are some people who see the difference.
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - May 16 2010 : 7:55PM
Thanks. I appreciate the compliment. Although I'm not a lawyer, I'm convinced that even the most rational legal defenses can be futile when dealing with narrowminded ignoramuses who have no understanding of the concept of individual liberty. It's really sad.I completely agree. I also completely agree with RandomPrecision that this is the same old tired conversation that keeps repeating itself. The main point boils down to one simple equation: -I don't like something = It must be banned, and fuck the First Amendment.
Same here. I've been in similar discussions for years. It's easy to get sucked into this one, because both ends have such profoundly different views both a very personal and philosophical level. Yes, what Max does is inspire philosophical debate, believe it or not. I think that's a good indicator of just how fucked up what he has created really is.I was just comparing the actual job market to porn. You could say "no" to that job, but then something else just as shitty would be offered to you, and eventually you'd take something if you wanted, or needed the money enough. Because all of the work, as you said, most of the time is just shit that they know they don't like nor get anything out of, they're just waiting for it to be over with. Maybe it's no wonder most of them don't stick around long at all. Guess they go back to that "real" abuse and humiliation of minimum wage. I guess you could say I'm one of "them folks" who see the problem as being with the abusers, and not those who supposedly "choose" abuse.
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realtip Deactivated User
2301 Posts 6/04
Posted - May 17 2010 : 5:12PM
Philosophical or not, the debate itself is fucked up. It's 2010. And the fact that we actually still have to debate with people to convince them why it's stupid and wrong to send someone to jail for doing nothing more than making something that offends people indicates that our society is much more fucked up and backwards than anything that the porn industry or MH ever created.
Whilst theres no doubt that max made some disgusting movies I cant help but wonder if it was unfair to put him in jail. The guy made hundereds of movies over many years. He didnt try to hide, he attended porn conventions, mingled with stars, set up a website, sold his films. If the cops thought what he was doing was wrong they should have acted earlier. If after say 10 years of doing what hes doing the cops havent arrested him then maybe he felt that he was operating within the confines of the law. Only sad thing was 10 years or so down the line they suddenly decide what hes doing is obscene. Can you really blame max for not really knowing which way the wind is blowing. Edited by - badass1 on 5/31/2010 3:20:19 PM Edited by - badass1 on 5/31/2010 3:20:54 PM
I believe that Max Hardcore stumbled into a formula that made him a fortune. Roger Pipe in many of his reviews commented that he liked Max's earlier work. Max drew more attention the more rotten he got. Seemed like he was deliberately taunting the government. In Christian XXX's blog from 2008 regarding Max, "Are a few million dollars worth a few years in prison"?
It's 2010! You know that means!? You can do whatever ya want!!! It's a freakshow's free-for-all out there. He offends people beyond a reasonable level. He's like the next best thing to a child molester making a business of off fucking kids and selling it on film. IIRC, doesn't he have a tendency to implement "simulated child porn" into most of his films? I mean damn, he's legally catering to pedophiles while he's at it. If we should lock up every pedo out there, then it only stands to reason we should lock up Max, who does the next best thing and then some... the level of deranged extremist disregard for humanity between a pedo and someone like Max is off by maybe a fraction of a percentage. Could we at least agree on that?
Except that I don't believe Max is or ever was a pedo. So it's off a little more than that. Steven Spielberg isn't a Nazi just because he depicted them in Schindler's List. But it's worth noting that we don't even lock Nazis up who openly declare themselves to be Nazis and are serious about it. I'm not sure how I feel about outlawing a state of being. If a guy says he's a Nazi and openly espouses the views of Nazis, that's one thing but it's a totally different thing from actually running death camps and killing people. It's disgusting but it's obviously not the same thing. I don't like to hear Nazis spew their hate any more than anyone else does but I don't think I could support locking them up just for being Nazis. Anyway, I believe Max was trying to be as outrageous as humanly possible. I'm not sure why. Only he really knows that. Edited by - randomprecision on 6/1/2010 2:57:12 PM
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AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy Deactivated User
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Probably because he didn't have anything else going for him. He wasn't handsome, he wasn't well endowed, and he wasn't a talented film maker. Why would anybody watch him?
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AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy Deactivated User
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Posted - Jun 1 2010 : 4:35PM
I have faith in your intellect and the ability to figure that out for yourself.
Hi guys, I'm a British journalist writing a feature about extreme pornography for a reputable national quality newspaper (not the scurrilous British tabloids of which you may have heard). I'm trying to do something very similar to the conversation going on here - argue the fors and againsts of access to pornography of the ilk produced by Max Hardcore and on sites such as Facial Abuse. I have spoken to pornography addiction counsellors, people involved in the pornography industry and pornography users. I am looking to speak to people about their views on Paul Little's imprisonment and their wider opinions on extreme porn. I am also looking to speak to people about their own experiences with pornography (what they started watching, what it developed into, whether they have ever felt addicted, whether they have ever wanted to stop watching certain kinds of material etc.) It is crucially important that I speak to people with as many differing views as possible in order to create a balanced piece. If you would be willing to talk to me about your experiences with pornography and your views on the issues discussed in this thread, then please get in touch at SAfeature at gmail dot com. This is an email address specifically set up for the feature to avoid spamming - I will then contact you back from my personal email with some links to my published work so you can get a feel for the kind of stuff I write and see whether you are comfortable speaking to me. I am also happy to give complete anonymity to anyone interviewed. Finally, apologies in advance to anybody who thinks that this posting is an inappropriate use of the forum. I hope that it is not considered bad form and that you will forgive me for using it for this purpose - my only aim is to ensure that I write the most fair, balanced piece that I am able to on what is a very sensitive and controversial subject. Many thanks.
If I may....a bit of humor, and we should all be concerned about our 1st amendment ..IF YOU DONT ENJOY IT...IT IS YOUR CHOICE...NOT TO WATCH IT! [Image not found DB] www.debidiamondfilmsvod.com Edited by - debi diamond on 6/2/2010 2:15:21 PM
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AsianAnalPantyhoserGuy Deactivated User
Ass fucking/ foot fetish/ pantyhose= insanity! 465 Posts 3/10
Posted - Jun 2 2010 : 5:07PM
We should all be concerned with our first amendment, don't abuse it.
Hello. This is my first post. The first time I heard of Max Hardcore was when I saw this documentary on British TV. There is a commentary on this show here. The show you can probably find as well. http://www.thefword.org.uk/reviews/2001/04/hardcore some of you may be dismissive or outraged by the fact that the commentary comes from a feminist website. I think the comments on this site are fair, and they only touch on some of the issues that the porn industry in general and Max Hardcore specifically brings up. It's a documentary about a 25 year old English woman who has a BBC documentary crew follow her in America as she tries to get a job in the porn industry. Her American manager sends her and the camera crew to meet Max Hardcore, despite the fact that she has said that she is only willing to do blowjobs and vaginal sex. Her manager just wants her to make money for him, and doesn't give a shit that she has said she doesn't want to do certain sexual acts.
Aside from the fact that Max Hardcore comes across as a dangerous bully and anally rapes her immediately upon meeting her for an "interview" right in front of the BBC cameras, it becomes clear that she has to sign a release form for a film shoot with Max Hardcore described as an "audition". This audition she doesn't get paid for, but Max Hardcore can sell it if he chooses. After the audition, the actress may be invited back for a paid shoot. There are loads of examples of physical and psychological pressures to submit to abuse that she encounters as soon as she arrives at Max's place. She first meets many of Max's assistants, who speak to her only in sexual terms, and they create a claustrophobic atmosphere which they probably think is about permissiveness and openness. She is given a bikini to wear for the interview, and there are about 10 people in the room when Max Hardcore finally walks in, most of them working for Max. When he comes in, he walks straight behind her, takes his cock out, gets her to rub some lube on it which she does. She is a bit surprised by this, but not as surprised as she is 5 seconds later when he sticks in cock in her ass. Within 15 seconds of coming into the room he has his cock in her ass and is fucking her saying things like "yeah you are tight". So he rapes her in front of several people. And no one says anything. Later on the woman confronts him with something along the lines of "you just come in the room and stick your cock in my ass and you don't even know who I am." She is terrified of him and yet she confronts him on this. She still goes on with the audition, because, well, she has come all the way out there, is hoping to find work, and is financially desperate, and well, probably not full of self confidence. So I think the problem is not just an issue of freedom of speech. It is also about power and manipulation. Max hasn't raped her in private, it's public. He has witnesses who will presumably defend him. And if you don't do what he wants in the audition, you don't get money for a second shoot. It's not a rape, it's an interview to check the suitability of the performer. And if the camera crew wasn't there, it is likely that it would have been 1 actress going to a strange palace to find work, and finding not just Max, but another dozen or so people there who help create the manipulative atmosphere to coerce a young naive woman that she should submit to their world, and sign a piece of paper waiving her right to get paid, thus allowing people like Max to do what he does. To suggest that all he has made is consensual, and therefore an issue of freedom of speech isn't so clearly defendable. And it seems likely that with some of the Max films that you may have seen, the actresses didn't even get paid. So although these are adults, and they have given "permission" by signing some agreement, the situation they are in isn't really a free choice. Adults get exploited too - and if I was an evil capitalist restricted by law against exploiting minors, I would try to exploit the youngest, most inexperienced and insecure people I was legally allowed to as Max does, because they are the least able to defend themselves.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Aug 21 2010 : 5:35AM
I've seen the Hardcore documentary and Max's behavior in it is damning, imo. Max says the filmmakers edited the film to make him look bad, which may be true in some respects, but there's no explaining the long, unbroken shot of him trying to sweet talk the female performer into starting up the scene again, and when that clearly isn't going to work, he goes into aggro mode, cursing and yelling at her and trying to break her down. His act is total pimp bullshit. But honestly, at this point the guy's in jail, maybe karma caught up to him, why keep picking at the scab of his past behavior over and over again? I think once he gets out it will be interesting to see what he decides to do.
A lot of top stars were in his movies more than once. That said I didn't like his movies. I only rented 1 or 2 back in the VHS days. Didn't watch very much of them before I returned them.
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Dec 18 2015 : 3:54AM
Checked the internets and he apparently is shooting occasionally, travelling and looking healthy, I wonder if he really got clean in prison. The women are of the very, very skinny variety that he was doing in his later years, no big names obviously.
Haven't read through the entire thread (too many posts!) but just wanted to say that I'm very much a fan of Max - properly dirty and unapologetic pornography, the way it should be. You know it's a sign of quality when your wife (my wife) knows about all your porn except the Max stuff, LOL. I'm not particularly a fan of the body type Max favoured - young, skinny, flat-chested - but nevertheless, those girls are heroines to me simply for being good enough sports to allow such material to be produced. I feel sorry for any girl who ever had a bad experience and I would hope that those were very much in the minority. Regarding his incarceration, I think it was probably an inevitability at some point, skating as close to the edge as Max did. Now he's out I'm surprised to hear he hasn't abandoned the industry entirely - I think an experience like that would've put me off. Maybe he could now mentor some up and coming guys and move behind the camera in a purely directorial role?
Max Hardcore is a absolute porn legend! He should've never been put in prison. That was total BS! I have over 200 of his DVDs in my collection and even a letter & autograph from him when he was in prison. No website will sell his DVDs, the majority of the porn community has shunned him. If no website will sell his DVDs, then it must be very hard for him to continue with future DVDs I would say. It's a shame, I was hoping he would have new releases.
He does release new stuff on his own site doesn't he? It's embarrassingly bad though with Max fucking girls with some weird plastic cock which squirts out fake piss and cum. Hopefully he's now packed in altogether rather than carry on this material.
Max Hardcore @ AEBN
Posted - May 5 2010 : 12:55PM
