I've let my current windows gaming rig get a little old. It's a dual-core laptop but the graphics card just isn't cutting it. I've built my own rigs before and CQ's comments about his rig kinda gave me the itch to do it again. However, a friend of mine just sold his company and needs to offload some excess equipment. He had a couple of high-end Dell units that are less than six months old and offered me a really good price on one....box and 19" flat panel monitor for $800. Using the Dell website, here's the important specs...I left off the crap that really doesn't matter (drives, software, etc): Memory:4-UW728-DUAL IN-LINE MEMORY MODULE, 1G, 533M, 128X72, 8, 240, 2RX8 Video Card:1-WH242-CARD (CIRCUIT), GRAPHICS, 256, FIX, 3500, MRGA13 (according to Dell, this is an OEM nVidia Qadro FX 3500 card) HDD:2-RC209-HARD DRIVE, 160G, NATIVE COMMAND QUEUEING, 10K, 16M, LEAD FREE, WD-ODY CPU:1-GF674-PROCESSOR, 80555K, XENON DEMPSEY, 5060, LGA771, C1 (Xeon procesor? 5060 tells me it's between 2.8ghz and 3.2ghz in speed, but really don't know for sure) My big question is....can I build a comparable system with better specs for cheaper than $600? I figure the monitor alone is worth $200 to me. The huge drives seem like a major plus to me, although what I'm really clueless about is the performance of the CPU when combined with the 4gigs of memory and that particular graphics card. Advice?
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conquistador Deactivated User
Hellhamster. 2947 Posts 10/03
Posted - Aug 21 2007 : 2:50PM
LNL: I am a tiny bit confused. Are you interested in a laptop or a desk top computer? :looks at receipts for parts bought in Toronto Chinatown: My last computer was built around this time last year, almost solely to play Oblivion. The parts cost 1680.00 Canadian dollars. I am sure I got ripped on a few things. Looking at a price tag of 600 for an upgrade nothing could be more important then a graphics card. And If you are feeling brave (and have the slots) a physics card. Not many games use them, yet. EDIT: instead of buying a stupid case with a window and lots of fan spaces I could have used one of the 3 cases I have in my apartment that are collecting dust. I am gullible when it comes to hardware. Edited by - conquistador on 8/21/2007 2:54:51 PM
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Hellhamster. 2947 Posts 10/03
Posted - Aug 21 2007 : 2:51PM
Also I have used ATI and nVidia cards and I would go with nVidia every time. ATI does a shitty and confusing job of supporting it's cards. EDIT: and if you like usi9ng multiple monitors nVidia's control panel system is a bit less obtuse then ATI's (I only said "a bit"). Edited by - conquistador on 8/21/2007 2:53:10 PM
This is not a gaming rig -- it's a baby workstation using one-generation-old technology aimed at the AutoCAD set. It's a very good buy if it happens to be what you need, though. ~ GaySatyr (ABB)
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Hellhamster. 2947 Posts 10/03
Posted - Aug 21 2007 : 2:56PM
If you get a SLI enabled mother board you can run 6 (!) monitors at once. Prepare for lotsa heat.
CQ: I want a desktop gaming rig....for my den. For Windows games, I've been using my laptop, either a 1-year old dual-core rig from Sony or my MacBook Pro (in Boot Camp/Windows mode). Both are "ok" at games, but certainly not high-end. I usually have to run BF2 and such on medium settings for detail. GaySatyr: Actually, this was an architectural firm...sounds like you are right. This is a "Dell Precision 490" which I think was marketed as a workstation. What I was hoping is that it is a decent rig to start with and I could upgrade the graphics card to get me to a decent gaming rig. I don't need top of the line; I really prefer to play one of my consoles in the living room on a huge plasma with surround sound and sitting in my easy chair...that's my gaming style. But I'd like to be able to run, for example, Crysis when it's released and maybe some of the newer FPS games. What I'm hearing here is that this is not a good starting point for a gaming rig for $600? MOBO not really acceptable I take it?
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Hellhamster. 2947 Posts 10/03
Posted - Aug 21 2007 : 4:21PM
A budget gaming rig for the desktop: Intel Pentium 4 650 3.4 ghz EM64T 2 Gigs of OCZ brand ddr2 ram Asus P5ND2 MoBo Seagate SATA 300 GB Barracuda drive The graphics card is a toss up for me. I am using 2 nVidia GeForce 7600 GT's. They are relatively cheap cards. To power this mess get an Antec 550 watt PSU. They are very nice and seem to be built to survive extreme heat or and explosion. EDIT: The word "very" has the letter "Y". AND AGAIN: and is spelled with a "d". Three edits: Many Asus board would cover the same ground but I really like the P5ND2 because it is readily overclockable and fanless.
Edited by - conquistador on 8/21/2007 4:27:50 PM
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Hellhamster. 2947 Posts 10/03
Posted - Aug 21 2007 : 4:27PM
I often run (while gaming) at around 5.1 Ghz using a similar set up and software overclocking.
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Hellhamster. 2947 Posts 10/03
Posted - Aug 21 2007 : 4:28PM
And if you set up RAID the P5ND2 makes it very easy.
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Hellhamster. 2947 Posts 10/03
Posted - Aug 21 2007 : 4:35PM
When you get a card . You should decide if you want to run XP or Vista. You'll note if you look around that DirectX10 is a bunch of hyped crap and DX9 still looks great. This is a serious consideration because so far only microsoft has made any dx10 only games. EDIT: and the new OS will add significantly to your budget if you are building a totally new machine. I say cannibalize what you can. Edited by - conquistador on 8/21/2007 4:36:06 PM
I've a few older games that I've heard won't run on Vista at all. So I think I'm fine sticking with XP for a bit longer. I just offered him $500 for the thing, told him it was "one-generation-old" technology (I stole gaysatyr's line). He's bringing it over tonight. I figure I can always use it to replace my workshop PC if I decide to not turn it into a gaming machine.
The Dell you are talking about has a Xeon processor -- a sort of industrial big brother to the Pentium. It is intended as a high-torque work horse, not a race horse. They tend not to over-clock well. The video card is designed for 3D rendering - the kind of thing where wire frames (or building plans) need to be rotated in order to view different aspects of their structure. Unfortunately, it doesn't do anti-aliasing at high frame-rates, which is what gaming needs. By picking judiciously, you can indeed build a very good gaming computer and keep the price well under $800-1000; but a Xeon-based system is not the way to do it. While the motherboard might take a better video card, you will not be able to substitute current (or even older) Core 2 Duo processors as the socket in which the Xeon sits is unique to Xeon processors. ~ GaySatyr (ABB)
I'll install a couple of things on it and see how it performs tonight....I thank you for your advice, just always looking for a reason to justify yet another computer in the house. I wonder how this machine would do for DVD authoring? My Mac does a great job there, but I don't like to tie it up performing that chore. It would be nice to have a dedicated machine in my workshop just for DVD authoring. Maybe the specs for this will work well for that instead?
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Hellhamster. 2947 Posts 10/03
Posted - Aug 21 2007 : 5:37PM
If you get into Windows based DVD making might I suggest Nero to you. It is worth every penny.
Actually a big Adobe Premiere user, although I've also got a copy of Sony Vegas. I think I have Nero 6 on my laptop....didn't realize it had DVD authoring in it.
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Hellhamster. 2947 Posts 10/03
Posted - Aug 21 2007 : 5:51PM
If you want to make DVD's with Windows play around with Nero 6 for a bit. It is a quality program.
Yup, just as everyone said, this thing is NOT a gaming rig. Can't even play BF2 on it. Day of Defeat loads but crawls. The graphics card just doesn't have any features on it that are gaming-specific. I think throwing a better graphics card in it may help, but not sure I want to do that. I went ahead and bought it from him, however. He was here when I tried to load up BF2 and saw it wouldn't run. So he said "$400" and I wrote the check. So for $400, I got a very good DVD authoring rig with a 19" flat panel digital display and the whole thing is less than 7 months old...tag says it was built in Jan of 2007. Not a bad deal, but no gaming rig. Back to shopping for parts I guess.
Just to give you an idea of what you've bought, the motherboard, alone, would retail for $400 or more. It uses Intel's i500 hex chipset, which is the workstation variant of their i5000 server series. The 1GB of memory installed is its minimum. It probably maxes out at 32GB (but ECC memory is expensive). Here's the manual. And here's the Quadro FX 3500 series video card. I doubt your friend knew what he was selling. Video encoding relies on processor power, multiple threads and disk I/O. The video card has nothing to do with it. This should be an excellent machine for that purpose. ~ GaySatyr (ABB) Edited to add: It would also be an exceptional machine for photo editing. And, if you put the right video board in it, it could even be made into a passable game machine -- not ideal, but very good. BTW, what cards are installed in addition to the video board? Edited by - GaySatyr on 8/22/2007 1:05:31 AM
One other use for this machine, should you ever want to do it: It's ideal as a home file, media & print server. Pop a raid controller in there, load in a bunch of large hard drives in a raid-5 array, load linux or M$'s new home server os, and you're good to go. ~ GaySatyr (ABB)
Dell's UltraSharps are a mixed bag. When they're good, they're very, very good; and when they're bad, they're horrid. Sadly, Dell has a habit of introducing new LCD models with really fantastic S-IPS panels and then substituting cheap, crappy S-PVA panels. Their excuse is that they can't get enough product to meet demand; the reality is that it's a cost cutting measure. The computer hardware forums have even coined a term for it: They call it the panel lottery. And, as with most lotteries, you are more likely a loser than a winner. ~ GaySatyr (ABB)
It's actually got 4 gigs of RAM installed. And I moved over a movie project I've been working on from my Mac to that machine last night. I make a lot of my own comp/"best-of" porn DVD's from my collection. Rendering the custom titles I put in between each scene (DVD it's from, performers, etc) is usually what slows the Mac down. This sucker flew thru the process. I'm very pleased with it. And good idea about the home server. I actually bought an Apple TV I have been using for that but I despise having to move everything over to the Mac MP4 format.
Cool! Maybe I can scavenge some of the components and stick it into a new gaming rig then....I'm starting to compile my shopping list now. Oh and the monitor wasn't a Dell monitor....turned out it was actually a Samsung 20" widescreen display (they used it for interior design work). I looked it up this morning....looks about 6 months old, but very nice picture. Edited by - lubenluv on 8/22/2007 11:43:13 AM
Gaming motherboards don't use ECC memory. What else is in this gem you've purchased? Any other cards? What are the hard drives? ~ GaySatyr (ABB) Edited to add: Your monitor has a 6-bit, accelerated TN panel, one of the better ones of its type (and decent for gaming!) but not designed for serious color accuracy. For photo/video color correction applications, you need an 8-bit S-IPS panel. Edited by - GaySatyr on 8/22/2007 11:58:18 AM
Awww, ok, well the memory stays in there then. I think I'll scavenge the monitor for my Mac....looks very nice and the MacBook Pro can drive dual monitors. Then I can run my Windows Parallels session and all my IM stuff on the external monitor and just use the primary LCD for Mac work. I'll get a better monitor when I build my gaming rig. Well, opening it up, I see the following cards: Video card (as described) A sound card A 2-port Firewire card There are 2 hard drives.....160g each. I don't really see any specs on them other than the model numbers (RC209's?) and what I posted originally: "160G, NCQ, 10K, WD-ODY." I'm guessing the WD means Western Digital, 10K is likely RPM's maybe? Dunno for sure. From what little I know about hard drive tech, isn't NCQ better than SATA's older TCQ? Or do I have that reversed? It also has a 16X DVD+/-RW burner (Hitachi)and a 48X CDRW (Sony). Power supply looks like standard Dell stuff but the case has room for a couple of extra cards. Everything else is pretty packed in there.
Without something more to go on, I'm guessing that they are an OEM version of WD's 150GB 10K rpm Raptors. If so, that's another $200 for each of them, new. It's true. This machine IS last year's technology; but it was near state-of-the-art last year. ~ GaySatyr (ABB)
TCQ was aimed at prioritizing & accelerating drive requests for a single user whereas NCQ was aimed at prioritizing & accelerating drive requests for multiple users. TCQ was never implemented by anyone other than WD (I think; I could be wrong). NCQ is pretty much standard on drives destined for raid arrays and servers. ~ GaySatyr (ABB)
Well, if I add it all up.... $20 hex 2 for the HDD = $400 Monitor (new) = $200 Memory (about) = $400 I got a $1K computer for $400. And it works. Sounds like a good deal. Just not a gaming rig. So "yay me" I got a great deal on something I didn't really need. [:P)] That's just about the story of my life LOL.
$ 100 f/ case $ 200 f/ 750 wt power supply $ 400+f/ motherboard $ 800 f/ memory (200/1GB) $ 800+f/ video card $ 400 f/ hard drives (200 each) $ 200 f/ monitor plus a few other things in there, including the OS. You did well for $400. ~ GaySatyr (ABB) I just went on Dell's site & configured a similar system for the fun of it. You paid 10 cents on the dollar for that computer. Excellent bargain. Does he have another one? I'll gladly pay S&H. Edited by - GaySatyr on 8/22/2007 12:48:48 PM
I took your advice GS....I didn't realize just how high-end that graphics card was in there (nVidia Quadro FX 3500). Given that it was a 256mb graphics card, I thought it was just like a lower end 7xxx series or something. But I called a few friends of mine and found someone who bought it from me for $500!!!! He said they retail brand new for about $750 or higher. I had no idea these things went that high and really don't understand why they do in the first place. At any rate, I'm now the proud owner of a brand-new PNY 8800GTS. With the money I got for the Quadro, I could have gotten an 8800GTX, but I really didn't think I'd do that card justice in what isn't really a "gaming rig." But at least I can play my DX9 games and, I'm assuming, DX10 games as they become available. I am a bit concerned about cooling, however. This rig, stock, has a huge heat sink on top of the CPU, a fan over that and the memory with it's own "chute" out the back, a fan on the power supply (it's 750w and top mounted) and now the graphics card has it's own fan as well. My old tower system sat in a "cubbyhole" that was built into my desk just for a CPU tower. I don't know that it will get enough ventilation there. Maybe I should leave it out on the desk?
Congrats! You gave your friend a good deal, too. That card is a minimum of $800, new, for the OEM version. The retail package, mail-order-discounted, is about $950. I suspect that putting it in your desk will be fine; however, I would remove the front door (if there is one) and cut out the rear panel, as well. (And, hopefully, there a is a 2-3 inch clearance above the case, also.) I did that with a computer hutch that my sister has. She was a little skeptical when I pulled out a sawzall, but she got over it. ~ GaySatyr (ABB)
I owed him a favor...he gave me his box seats for one of the Sox playoff games. So why does the Quadro sell for so much higher than the "gaming" cards? Supply and demand? Or is it just apples vs oranges comparison since that card was really aimed at a different market and has specifications geared towards CAD work? Cutting a hole in the side is very doable.....I'll definitely do that. And yes, I still have about 10" clearance on the top and 5" on either side. This hutch was built for me back when I had a "real" tower. Those things used to be enormous. Thanks again!
