I think the point wasn't that women don't get horny. It was that the porn industry is infact an industry. Kristie might not do it for the money but I don't think she would do it if there wasn't money involved. Not the sex acts, the getting filmed and distributed part. Anybody who's a writer can tell you that writers write because we love it. Something about words makes us happy. Doesn't mean those who get paid for it won't go on strike until they are paid what they are worth. Same could be said about any industry and the more demanding the industry the more you need to love your work because the money isn't/shouldn't be the main motivation. Doesn't mean you'd do it for free.
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john_qyoo_public Deactivated User
265 Posts 7/05
Posted - Nov 30 2007 : 9:26PM
Yeah, I might've agreed with that male supremacy thing (appeals to my instincts :) ) if I hadn't seen all the hard fucking in Penny Flame's Out of Control, which put 95% of the porn I've seen to shame.
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Kensington Chapp Senior Citizen
Mine is the biggest. 610 Posts 7/07
Posted - Dec 1 2007 : 11:15AM
I'd say they do.
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undone Deactivated User
what's for dinner? 214 Posts 6/07
Posted - Dec 14 2007 : 4:27PM
Isn't porn about women exploiting a man's sex drive? How many guys get off to something other than porn when the real thing is not avail? Some guys "trade" their real thing wife/girl to get off to porn, at leat occasionaly. It is in the genes to fuck every girl alive. The hunt. We are just animals. Self control is what is lacking. Anyways...I like the exploitation of my groin. Bring it on. Do the guys who fuck for porn have real relationships once there porn career is over? Would any hot chick ever hook up with a x male porn star. Doubt it. They are exploited too.
Melissa does make six figures a year off her site. The figure is closer to 100k (she explained this on another message board and said that she was happy living in Nebraska because her money went further, i.e. she owns a nice home and vehicle). She has been arrested several times for public nudity and it made the national media each time. The arrests were over a period of about four years (different incidents), so she has literally had a free publicity machine, without having to do anal etc. People in her affiliate program were getting 4 figure checks a month. She's also been in men's magazines, giving her even more exposure. Furthermore, she is not a dummy (college educated) and has an employee help her with running the site (he does not get 50/50, he gets a salary). Edited by - moodyblues on 3/25/2008 11:36:00 AM
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Haze Deactivated User
769 Posts 7/04
Posted - Jan 8 2009 : 4:57PM
but they allow themselves to be expoited for the most part.
"Why don't you flex yr magic muscle?" (Captain Beefheart) 418 Posts 5/10
Posted - Jan 25 2012 : 5:10PM
Here's a revolutionary idea. Porn performers forming a union. Trouble is, with the increasingly paedo trend for younger girlies, there now seems to be more & more younger stars on the scene than ever before (& it seems to be a trend that is increasing over time), so creating an endless stream of cheap expendable talent, and basic economics tells that excess supply holds down the bargaining price of labour. Some of these girls are bent and spent after less than 2 years (some of you out there are going to love my choice of language there - I just kw it). Such an idea of a union - only credible if the top performers all joined it - would only be effective if ALL of the top performers joined it and did the bidding for the rest. Imagine the reverberations around the world if pornstars exerted their rights in the capitalist exploitation of their own unequal economic exchange power differential within the porn industry. No-one wld see that coming. A subversion of economic power coming from such unorthodox source that has a substantial though unspoken of cultural influence on the mainstream would reverberate into the public consiousness. Phew! Bill Hicks, who had an opinion on everything, including even porn, wld have agreed, I'm sure
. Edited by - endorphine rush on 1/25/2012 8:56:19 PM
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West2 Deactivated User
26 Posts 1/12
Posted - Jan 25 2012 : 5:37PM
Unions have been on a downward trend in the US since the 40's. Furthermore, you can't even get unions formed at McDonald's or Wal-Mart and that's with highly competent and organized employees. So it is extraordinarily improbable you could ever make it work in the industry. Furthermore, if it was tried, new employees would be brought in.
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Endorphine Rush Deactivated User
"Why don't you flex yr magic muscle?" (Captain Beefheart) 418 Posts 5/10
Posted - Jan 25 2012 : 6:32PM
/\ I made that point myself .. and went beyond it
. Edited by - endorphine rush on 1/25/2012 6:32:26 PM
Ummm hello? We're talking about a job that draws off of a person's physical attributes. You work at Wally World, they don't care what you look like. You can work there for 20 years if you want. The fact of the matter is that women age. 35-40 is about the max for this market. Porn markets to two basic types of people. Dirty old men and desperate young men. Both of these types would really prefer the 18-25 year olds. You're not going to sell granny porn to men who want teen porn. That's just life. It's not evil capitalism and it's not pedophilia. It's biology. Edited by - randomprecision on 1/26/2012 7:31:36 AM
That of Actors works , if porn performers are going to be recognized as actors then they could be seriously defended
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Endorphine Rush Deactivated User
"Why don't you flex yr magic muscle?" (Captain Beefheart) 418 Posts 5/10
Posted - Jan 30 2012 : 9:58PM
4 examples of little girlies currently plying their trade far too young looking for my tastes (ok, they may be 18, but they don't look it - and that is maybe why they are credible options for roles in some films out there in the marketplace): Avril Hall Little Caprice Tiffany Thompson Zoey Kush
At 45 I fall under the dirty old men category and although I enjoy watching an 18-25 yrs old have sex. I much prefer seeing an experienced 26-35 years old woman having hot sex than an awkward 18yrs old. Part of the problem is that there are a lot more performers that are below the age of 25 than there are above that age. That's just the nature of the business. I also really enjoy watching 40+ yrs old having sex but that's an even smaller pool of performers. I'd also like to add it's not only men that enjoy porn. There is a huge amount of women that want to watch porn.
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Endorphine Rush Deactivated User
"Why don't you flex yr magic muscle?" (Captain Beefheart) 418 Posts 5/10
Posted - Jan 31 2012 : 12:12PM
No, The images are off ADT. If you click on edit on anyone else's post, you can copy and paste the code of someone else's uploaded image. In that way, I am saving hard drive space on ADT, so am taking responsibility in efficiently using hard drive space!
. Edited by - endorphine rush on 1/31/2012 12:13:18 PM
The following is from the thread Welcome Danielle FTV to ADT!. In order not to de-rail that thread I shall deal with the relevant issues here.The issue, as I see it, is that for all porn companies payment of the talent is currently just another upfront cost - emphasizing the contempt the industry shows towards the actual source of its revenue. However, as more and more performers (such as Danielle FTV): 1. utilize the Internet to run their own careers via their own web-sites; 2. dispense with agents whose interests are themselves, the industry and then their client in that order; 3. market their brand via a strategy of targeting different audiences using a variety of media channels monolithic porn companies will find that the performers are less beholden to them for an income. In this emerging environment a one-off performance payment from Evil/Elegant just won't cut it for an independent performer if it's blatant that the Angels (sic) are then going to pull in major revenue on the back of the performer. Performers will be in the position to demand profit sharing, residuals etc. It's not that the EAs should pay residuals it's what they are going to have to do. And don't be on about financial risk - porn already operates the lowest cost model in the entire entertainment space. Location costs - renting a house for a day; costumes - when there are any, provided by the talent themselves; script - none; post-production - there's no sign of professional editing of the video and the music is a Garageband loop. Give me a break!
Actually, they don't look all that young. They're all passably 18. Now as to the question of whether or not they're trying to look younger than they are? Probably. At any rate, I don't recognize any of them right off. I was speaking more about the Lexi Belles and other more popular teen types. They are also all pretty obviously over 18. Personally, for me, as long as they ARE over 18 and someone checked their ID, I don't care. I'm not gonna pretend I don't pop a boner over a naked 18 year old sucking cock just because I'm almost 40. Any man who denies it is probably a liar. Edited by - randomprecision on 2/25/2012 7:33:16 AM
Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99
Posted - Feb 25 2012 : 10:26AM
Really?! Who do you think paid John Stagliano's legal bills when he was recently prosecuted for obscenity? The costs of running a business in the porn industry are much greater than your assumptions here. Far more expensive marketing is done by the companies, not individual performers. Social networking only carries you so far. Who do you think pays the huge expenses of trade show booths? Of course, there is professional editing on the quality flicks and costume costs. Have you ever tried to edit any video? There are equipment costs. You think performers provide the costumes for all the parody flicks? Duplication, printing, legal, marketing, personnel, sales, etc - there are so many costs involved that you aren't even touching on them. A good performer who can market herself will garner good rates. Product ownership comes from producing which requires more than a single performance.
^Thanks for addressing one of the issues I raise by actually providing a fact based argument. However to some degree 'financial risk' is a tangential issue to the main point I was making, and the post to which I was responding. My central concern is that the porn industry appears to treat its talent like another piece of furniture; the fact this impression I have may be incorrect only reflects how badly the industry does in informing, if not the wider public, porn fans (at least) as to how the industry actually works. While you do a very good job in highlighting certain neutral aspects of the industry I consider it salient that the central players never open themselves up to scrutiny. I suspect there is a lot the industry prefers to keep hidden. At this point I acknowledge there will be a lot of hard-working people in porn who are undertaking the same or similar jobs as other people in other industries (entertainment or otherwise). However this doesn't obviate the fact that working hard, although generally an essential condition of success in any field of endeavor, does not in itself justify anything. There are hard working criminals. There are people working hard in many industries; tobacco, political lobbying, international slavery, armaments. Moreover it is also true that most of us at some stage have to gain employment where and when we can and we can't be too choosy about who employs us. So if over time a hard-working porn camera person or a porn office person makes more money from a porn company than the performers, then it's not their fault. Nevertheless this bland economic analysis takes us too far if we begin convincing ourselves, that just because there are inevitable business overheads and the back office staff are working hard, risible exploitation of the actual porn resource, the human performer, is acceptable. in terms of specifics let's look at Elegant's Gangbanged series. Where's these costuming costs you speak of? Each box cover is generic and could be mocked-up by the receptionist on a PC between phone calls. The marketing/distribution channels are already well established. The company doesn't have to buy a new editing machine each time it produces a new DVD - and its pretty obvious a first year film student could do the job competently (that is, Elegant can't be, or shouldn't be, paying someone very much to do the editing). And ultimately what generates the sales - or should we say who? The performer. If a particular Gangbanged DVD is selling like hot cakes and substantially on the back of the performers' work, Elegant's marginal cost of meeting increasing demand continues to go down and profit goes up, while the performer, having received their comparatively paltry performance fee, receives nothing more. Awesome! And don't get me started on compilations. Jules Jordan's recently reviewed All-Star Overdose 2 would have generated no further income for Bobbi Star, Kristina Rose, Gracie Glam, Dana Dearmond, Andy San Dimas but Jules Jordan will generate further revenue - because of Bobbi Star, Kristina Rose, Gracie Glam, Dana Dearmond, Andy San Dimas! While I am advocating for the real revenue-generators in porn, the (female) performers, to obtain a greater share of the revenue generated I am not saying that the people who run the businesses shouldn't make a profit - why run a business if not for profit? And it is out of these profits that a business owner could pay his personal legal fees. On that note if John Stagliano's case was prosecuted in order to shut down the industry as a whole, then it would seem pretty typical of the porn industry to hang him out to dry and leave him to fend (pay) for himself, I also see the risk that if a superstar performer was able to earn a huge sum from a DVD she could be incentivized not to perform as often. This however leads on to another discussion regarding overall product quality, the effect of production line cookie-cutter gonzo newbies, the need for genuine creativity - all drums on which I will continue to bang, but on other occasions.
It's still a halfway free country last time I checked. It's still acceptable to make a profit. "Unacceptable" is not a word that works well in a free country unless you're talking about premeditated murder or something. Edited by - randomprecision on 2/26/2012 1:22:01 AM
To me, the thing it makes the most sense to compare porn stars to, for the sake of this argument, is professional athletes. Just like your description of the porn stars, the athletes are the real generators of revenue in sports, as no one comes to see the coaches or the owners. But when athletes sign their free agent deals, do they get a cut of the ownership of the team? Do they get a percentage of the gate for every home game? Do they get any cut of the sales of their specific jerseys? Do they get any money when their respective leagues repackage their highlights and greatest games and sells them as DVDs? No, they don't. They get paid a fee (in their case, with incentives based on production) for their services, and that's it. They don't get any of the back-end profits either. And they generate a hell of a lot more money than porn stars do, have a union, and most of their unions have been fully established longer than porn has been legal to shoot. And you want to know one of the biggest reasons why, in both instances? Because they are both imminently replaceable. An athlete decides he's not gonna sign a contract unless he gets part-ownership of the team? You just go sign someone else. A porn star decides she's not going to do a DVD unless she gets a cut of the back-end? You just shoot someone else. In both cases, there are tons of other people in the same profession chomping at the bit to get their chance, that will take the other person's place for less money and without those demands. And in both cases, while there may be a drop in the money you make from the loss of that person, it generally isn't as much as you would have given the person if you agreed to their demands.
^Fair comment. ^^Not calling for any law changes or anything. Don't worry RP, your country is no more or less oppressed because of my post. Edited by - Sexy Sadie on 2/26/2012 2:08:23 AM
By the way, these types of things are what are known as "Wedge issues". They appear to work as well here as they do anywhere. Clearly, the attacks on porn and it's customers are getting more sophisticated. Edited by - randomprecision on 2/26/2012 1:58:22 AM
Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99
Posted - Feb 26 2012 : 10:36AM
OK, let's look at Gangbanged, two movies shot by one of the most popular directors in porn, a director employed full-time by this company Elegant Angel for which you show such disdain. Said director, Mason, is also a very skilled photographer. The beautifully done covers are a big part of why these movies sell. So are the reviews - company build relationships with media outlets and send screeners. Company also pays for advertising. No boxcover can be "mocked-up by the receptionist." Have you ever done any hiring? People with graphic design skills don't answer phones. They are professionals who are paid like professionals. Every graphic designer I know is either a freelancer with more work than they can handle or has a good full-time job. No first-year film students do not have the skills to edit movies for mass consumption. Again, I've hired film students and know their skills. There are also offices and warehouses to pay for - plus a full warehouse staff to ship the product. Then there is the constant maintenance and marketing of websites, requiring skilled professionals. Getting back to the performer. Top performers choose to work with Elegant Angel because they are payed well, shot beautifully, marketed well and treated well. You clearly have some anger issues about people running porn companies. But they are not based on fact. There are some shoddy comp houses - your assumptions of skills/costs might loosely apply there. But they don't apply to the companies producing quality product. It seems you want company owners to lay out their business plans. Look at any business plan. Porn isn't very different other than higher legal risks due to vague laws. Successful company owners make more money than freelance contractors (which is what a porn performer is) because they risk their money to start the company and put far more money/time into the business. There are plenty of company owners making less money than freelance contractors that they employ.
I have been called a user an exploiter and a pimp. You can say that to any company owner in any line of work. I tell everyone the same story which is I worked in the Sheet Metal Mechanics union for 20yrs. I traded my body every single day for a paycheck. I wanted more money so I worked an average of 60 to 70 hrs a week for those 20yrs and every year I broke 120k, I felt well compensated for my performance and received a fair competitive wage for what I contributed to the company. I became friends with the owner and one day I was invited to his house for dinner. His house was in the Pacific Palisades on a hill with his backyard over looking the ocean. The owner told me to look around at what he has, take a look at his driveway it was made from the skulls of his completion and the backs of his employees. I had no problem with what he said because I made that choice, He was the owner, he took all the risks, he had all of his money on the line for each and every project I was working on. I knew what I was doing. I traded my body for a paycheck. StripClub2u Check out the video in the middle of the last row it's a great blooper interview with AJ Morgann Edited by - Chester Kingwood on 2/26/2012 11:22:01 AM Edited by - Chester Kingwood on 2/26/2012 11:23:57 AM
Not Quite.. There is a huge market in Porn for watchers age 25-40 that are not desparate. Kink and anal in porn have made porn a must for those either married and horny , or just adventurous and their partner is NOT, to watch porn. Although its never talked about I would dare say that many Porn Girls have saved marriages where the female in the marriage didnt like sex much or in some cases was unable. Many women do not see their male partners as being unfaithful if they look at porn these days. I know of 40 year old( nice looking) women that drop their husbands off at strip clubs and go to gamble or shop. Exploited?? Nah... The men and now women in the industry only ask them to do what makes the quick cash. It may seem "exploitive", but thats usually because the best advice to give the new ones is get as much done as possible while you are new in the industry. Once the "neweness" is over they either have a fan base to carry them, or they often fade away, or gain a little weight then get boob job to make them look more skinny, or "curvy" Since these Porn stars are getting fucked by many men anyways, a way to get their career to LAST a bit longer might be to actually see if they can act some and put them in a porn "series", a sort of a a "to be Continued" type video, where the viewer can watch her have "fun" and grow sexually and become more adventurous.
Im liberal and pro-union to say pornstars are exploited is a bit of stretch. The average wage in the U.S is about 43,000.00. Pornstars make that on the low end,and work half the hours, why should a pornstar make more money then an accountant or oil well driller for a multi-billion dollar company like BP. I see these girls in Miami popping 500.00 bottles at clubs, they are not exploited. As far as royalties go,alot of hollywood actors take less money up front for residuals on the back end. I dont know if pornstars are going to want a model like that,but since you have to deal with stigma of being a pornstar your entire life,you might as well get paid.
exactly. they make way more than the average blue-collar american who actually had to learn a trade/skill which por stars do not. how could i ever feel sorry for someone who does not even nearly half the work as most and gets paid more. they are not exploited. sure they may not always be treated in exemplary fashion but they know what they sign up for and all most want is quick cash. http://www.change.org/petitions/brazzers-produce-porn-with-average-thin-cocks-that-doesnt-involve-sph
@whatsatelephonebill, @Janitor, @Chester Kingwood, @tbetts12 and @DuanCulo - thanks for taking the time to respond to my post(s). You all make valid and relevant points and I certainly feel I've got my ass well and truly kicked. I don't feel bad though, just better informed. Hopefully others who have watched this slapdown have benefited from the discussion. Hate to think that I have anger issues - at worst I hope it's just congenital cynicism. Very likely there will be other porn industry issues I will wade into only to find I've been barking very loudly up the wrong tree. Engaging in dialogue in order learn more is one of the benefits of being a member of ADT - even if, in the course of it, I make a dick of myself.
Porno movies, sexy videos, xxx. Adult DVD Talk at your service. 6409 Posts 11/99
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 9:43AM
Sexy Sadie, there are company examples you could have picked that would have made it more difficult to argue my points (I have a lot of respect for Elegant Angel and truly enjoy working with them.) Being a porn performer is not an easy career for those that make it a career. Like anything else those that work hard and are good at it will make good money. They can then choose to use that money (and their fame) to launch a company... if they want.
Hey Sexy Sadie, That topic is never a dumb question, Plus I liked reading everyones input. Chester Kingwood, Clover Enterprises AKA ChesterMolestHer Studios
So what exactly does "unacceptable" mean in the United States in the context of people making a profit off of their business? Edited by - randomprecision on 2/28/2012 8:03:13 AM
Hazel Heart Interview
Posted - Nov 30 2007 : 7:06PM
