Yes, at the end of the night, the "easy" girl at the local honky-tonk is gonna go home with you and fuck your drunk, worthless ass senseless. But you're still gonna try for the "trophy whore," because in these situations the cock does the talking. You're gonna buy her drinks and smooth-talk her, because girls like her don't hang out at your bar very often. You may strike out, but you've always got a fall-back.

I'm not saying this to downplay any type of performer's game. But trying to analyze the p$ychology at work in this little discussion.

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Amy Reid can charge what she wants, because, well, she knows that presently there aren't many girls out there that have recently grabbed the porn consumer attention. Few years ago, she barely got noticed as Devin Valencia and i bet she didn't ask for a special fee then.

The "woodless noob" guy (how the hell male performers have wood problems in the age of ED drugs is beyond me) that demands a rate close to the vets, can still survive in the biz, because he knows there isn't really an alternative to him now if Ferrara, Holmes, Everhard etc. are already booked. So the director has to work with him. Why the LA porn biz has such a limited pool of dependable male talent and has to "import" guys from Europe and other places is a funny mystery to me.

In contrast, i see that, in the Budapest-placed business, if a girl isn't great looking and/or a good performer, she simply doesn't have a place in porn, she can go earn her money elsewhere. You can tell there is some good competition between the girls for work there, and that, of course, is a good thing.

Edited by - Rogue on 8/2/2006 6:36:22 PM

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Sounds like Eli is talking about the girls rates as much as the guys. But you’re the one that hires them. If they don’t want to work for what the job is paying just pass them by. There are so many girls and guys now it’s crazy! I know it’s hard as some people that own there product can work with out budgets because they are making the full profit of the movie or a piece of everyone else movie. Or they don’t have to worry about any fees as the company pays for all there expenses cough Q-Man cough. How’s that new $20,000 camera set up doing for you that the company covers, I am so jealous ;-)

It’s a good thing that talents rates go up but dam the crew and director rates go down at the same time to cover this. Oh I see nobody says anything about the director and the crew that gets jazzy shoot at him or her as they have to clean up some white and brown goo. Damit they deserve a raise too! I had some directors call me up and say did you real work for this amount at that company? As I pull myself off the floor from laughing so hard. I got to remind them, do you realize how much prep and post goes into a production and how much legal responsibility you are taken on don’t sell yourself short.
We all deserve a raise! and free porn for all the die-hard fans! Only for the ADT fans that is.

Shooting wise I didn’t notice any changes but dam if my phone has rung more this summer then any other from male and female talent looking for work. They say it’s slow out there. What’s going on?!?!

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Edited by - skronker on 8/2/2006 7:11:37 PM

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Groceries are up, gas is up, power bills are up everything period. The music industry is completely suffering. The mainstream movies is at a very low point as far as income goes etc etc. it goes on and on.

I don’t want to get political on a XXX message board but I just feel the anger is pointed unjustly here. America is in serious trouble, not just the \adult film industry.

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I went to a couple of video stores for the first time a month ago and couldn't for the life of me make out who all these new companies were. Same boxcovers, same shit, over and over again, flooded by cheap compilation tapes. There's too much product out there and too many companies whoring their product out. There's so much product out there that distributors can pass on certain titles, pass on certain companies. Shit, some can say we don't need a Chico Wang release this week or we don't need the next Maximum Exposure or Elegant title. In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter what they buy?

It kind of reminds me of the stock market crash in early 2000. Preceding it, everybody and their rat-faced grannies were jumping aboard, through E-Trade, Ameritrade, etc. The big players stepped back and wham! again everybody and their rat-faced grannies got clobbered hard.

Now everybody is raising their rates only to find a bunch of empty dates on their calendars. It was cool to be expensive when you are working 30+ times a month, turning down jobs, and acting like you were the most needed person in the industry, but suddenly when you're only booked 4 times in a month, how does it feel?

This recession in the video sector started a couple of years ago. I remember last December over at JM's offices, Jeff Mike and I were looking at an AVN magazine and couldn't for the life of us figure out who all these new companies were putting full page ads on the magazine, churning out the same shit over and over again, with the same performers. Now most of them are struggling to break even and worse many of them are probably dead right now.

It's kind of funny because there are companies out there saying they sell their product to distributors at $11 a piece. I have friends who are distributors who buy them for $5 a piece. You can do the math.

Right now is a bizarre time for alot of performers. As they start with their elevated rates, they'll get clobbered in these times for lack of work. I know what most companies pay performers. Some companies have even gone so far as institute a general cap for their performers. "You don't like our rate? Don't work for us. Don't even call."

If any motherfucker tries to highball me when I know they work for another company for cheaper, I just let them know they're on probation, they will not work for me, and they better not waste my time.

I'm getting calls from all corners, especially girls, begging me for work because they all know I'm still shooting like crazy. When I ask for their rate, they'll tell me something ridiculous like $1000 for a bg when they have nearly the entire month open. Economics dictates that if you are nearly unemployed at your current rate, then you better lower it because this recession will be with us for a while and there will be a slew of dead companies coming up to the AVN show which should prove interesting. Meanwhile these same girls will work for $600 for my Internet shoots. Go figure.

There was a girl who told me her rate was $2000. I won't mention her name. I asked her what a $2000 pussy felt like cause for the life of me, with the money saved, I can bang 10 cheap pornstar hookers and cum coat their throat. I let her know it would be my first three hour scene, shooting non-stop sex for 3 hours, in essence 45 minutes a position. But before that, I would blindfold a guy, bring Haley Paige, Jasmine Tame, Jessi Summers, and Roxy Jezel next to her, spread all of them missionary on the floor and have him fuck each for one minute and guess the $2000 pussy. I can't believe there are people falling for the hype and paying these rates because this girl on the box will not sell better than putting Tory Lane on the boxcover. Needless to say, my antics scared her off.

If guys ask for something riduculous, and I know they're prone to failures, then I tell them what a $500 guy means to me, a $600 guy, a $700 guy. I let them know if they make me cut because they have to catch their breath or waste my time or can't catch wood, I will put their struggles in the Behind The Scenes and their rate will be $0. That usually shuts them up fast. Trust me, when a guy doesn't deliver, I will throw them off my set instantaneously and harangue him to tell me why his rate is so ridiculous. The guys drive the movies, the girls sell them. But I'd personally rather see a hot new girl with a $300 guy than a girl I've seen a million times with a $700 guy. I think you would too.

I remember what Tom Byron told me some time ago. He said in the late 80's, his rates were astronomical. Then recession hit. Then the Meese commission hit. Then companies were going under like so much change in his pocket. Next thing you know, he couldn't find work to even pay rent. And this is the Icon we're talking about. Yes, there is a recession. Yes, the 2257 and feds are looming. Yes, alot of companies that were shooting like crazy are no longer shooting much at all. And yes, it's going to bad on everyone's rates.

Yes, prices are going to fall on everyone in the industry until the industry catches up with the economics of what's going on. There is a recession. Too many people are jacking off in front of their computers rather than driving their gas guzzling DVDs to video stores. It's going to prove interesting and this is going to be with us for a while.

As for all those jack offs who perform for cheap and try to stiff me, I can only say one thing. Do it to me once and you will never work for me again. There are about 5 guys I used to use regularly that will never work for me again because of this policy over the last year. And if you do want to work for me again after pulling these stunts off, you better be willing to give me some free scenes.

Chico Wang

Edited by - Chico Wang on 8/2/2006 7:54:55 PM

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An $800 guy guarantees they'll bring something out of the girl, will nail a perfect scene everytime, and has an $800 dick. They don't fuck like robots and better bathe the girl in cum. Again, I don't pay more for a guy because they are a historical momento.

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It doesn't work that way with adult rental stores.

Edited by - Bill on 8/2/2006 8:32:45 PM

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Eli, I am not disagreeing with you about newbies asking high rates, but people need to stop dissing the guys in the industry. The good ones are amazing at what they do and they DO have female fans (Pagoda is not the only one!) and they are a valuable part of the process and the final product.

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You Americans bang on about freedom with every breath until it costs you money. Why shouldn't I work for one rate for you and another rate for someone else? Aren't performers self employed contractors? Far as I can see, what I might earn from someone else has nothing to do with you.

Edited by - Loraine on 8/2/2006 9:34:21 PM

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I think things will settle themselves down. Eventually, some of the smaller start ups will not be able to pay talent consistently as much as they will not move as many units. I think we are in a state of influx with new companies, but this will calm down eventually. Do you really think it would be wise long term for a distributor to pass on a Diabolic or RLD title for instance over some No-name. If the products are good, then fair enough. But for the most part these start ups aren't Which means less satisfied customers, less rentals and purchases, and a less happy store owner. Eventually this gets back to the distributor and voila they carry what most want.

Edited by - axlsfury on 8/2/2006 10:26:15 PM

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"Vegetarianism for me is about saying ‘yes’ to things - even meat." - Coupling

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As for the big money, things will adjust. Like Skronk said about Amy, a performer can change 3, 5, 10, 50 times as much as the others, and they only have to work 1/3, 1/5, 1/10, 1/50th as much as the others. If you can do it, more power to you.

"Vegetarianism for me is about saying ‘yes’ to things - even meat." - Coupling

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"Vegetarianism for me is about saying ‘yes’ to things - even meat." - Coupling

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"Vegetarianism for me is about saying ‘yes’ to things - even meat." - Coupling

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I'm not trying to knock performers in general; however, they have to understand the realities of the current marketplace. What goes up, will go down, then may go back up.

I'm merely suggesting that I as a director am known to pay pretty well with blazing fast shoots. However, there is no way I'm going to pay someone for the same shoot more than they get paid from another director.

And in terms of male performers, the litmus test is always going to be their performances, not some notion of paying dues or whatnot. It's all about the final product, not how long they've been in the business or how many blowbangs or grannies they fucked early in their careers.

It's just funny that some guys are asking, nearly begging me for work right now at some bizarre elevated rate when just months ago they just blew me off thinking that the crazy pace of shooting that was going on will continue forever. And that not only goes for alot of performers, but goes for the industry in general.

Chico

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So, is Courtney Simpson the $2,000 pussy. I'll assume that is it unless I am told otherwise.

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I had a situation with a certain male talent about 5 months ago. I don't regularly use him. He struggled a little in the scene. He came an hour late to the set. After the scene was done, he told me his rate was $800 but he'd cut it for me because my scenes are so easy to $700 out of generosity. I asked him if his rate is $700 then why does he work for another director I know who's sets are three times longer than mine for $500 regularly? Needless to say, I wrote the check for $700 and told him he'll never work for me again. Like a dipshit he took the check and hasn't worked again for me. He still regularly calls me to see if the 'ban' has been lifted.

I actually love the current core group of guys I use. After a while you begin to whittle away who are good on your set and who are expendable. But to add a new guy here and there takes alot of trials and tribulations. Trust me, early on I had my pet projects with new guys only creating disastrously bad sex scenes.

My current stable include Tony T., James Deen, Will Powers, Brian Surewood, and Steven French. Those guys are worth every penny of what they make.

Chico

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How do you "pay your dues" exactly?
And more to the point, how can anyone seriously expect to get paid top dollar just because they were great at some time in the past?
Even in the music industry, where I used to hear the "paid their dues" argument the most, it's not used much anymore.
In the porn industry, which is even more opportunistic and short-sighted than the music industry, the notion is laughable.

Some of the guys may be able get work, when they really no longer have any business being in front of the camera, because of some "old boys network".
Most girls, however, are dropped like a sack of potatoes and quickly forgotten once they pass their perceived "sell by date".

The girls, and guys too, who know their worth and have the confidence to demand a matching fee should definitely take the studios for all they can get. Surely that's The American Way (and I honestly don't mean that in a snide way).
If they've overestimated what the studios are willing to pay for their services, they'll figure that out soon enough and adjust their rates, or leave the industry if they won't work at the reduced rate.

I don't know how many new guys are waiting in the wings, but there certainly doesn't seem to be any glut in the girls available. There's plenty of competition.
And even if there was a glut in talent, well that'd just be normal supply and demand. No reason for the talent to ask less than they could get.
No studio or director is going to thank performers for selling themselves short. They're more likely to laugh behind their backs.

A salary cap?
Do you mean an industry wide salary cap agreed upon by the studios?
That's hardly the free-market philosophy I'd expect to see in the super-capitalistic porn industry.

And how come fellow performers should have a say in what any single performer should be paid? It only works that way in sectors where the labour unions are very strong. Do you want the talent to unionise? I doubt the studios do.

You and I may like the girls to "get a few scenes under their belts" and be able to build a career over several years.
That only works out for a select few, however. Most performers should get what they can out of each and every job.
Heck, even those that do work for more than a decade or two should get what money they can for their work. After all: why not?

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I have my own corps to handle what I shoot and where the movies and Internet content goes to. Again, I pay my guys their rate, shoot them regularly, and pay accordingly. In fact, I believe I shot Steve Holmes, one of my favorites, about 35 times in a one month shooting frenzy period last year. And I paid his rate each and every time.

However, again, the problem with alot of people in this industry and I don't count myself out of this problem, is that people tend to be very narrow minded and don't look at the overall goals or future longetivity.

Of course I'm going to be pissed if a guy tells me his rate is $800 when I know he works for $500 regularly. The male performers I use are close friends of mine and wouldn't play this dodgey game of overcharging or undercutting. Of course I'm going to be annoyed as hell if a girl shoots for some dinky company, waiting around for 8 hours on set, and does a scene for 40% less then my 45 minute video shoot.

It's going to be interesting to see how everything pans out in the coming year.

Chico

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Being downsized, outsourced, underemployed and doing the same job for less pay is a tough thing to face, but nonetheless its something nearly every worker in the US has had to accept. Now it seems to be hitting pornstars pretty hard.

Rather than bang them over the head
for their naivete and gumption, wouldn't it be more productive to find ways to help them deal with the economic and pyschological stresses caused by the recession?

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But, don't forget Hollywood has another prominent means of selling its product, namely the cinema. Porn can only rely on direct sales.

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Also, by getting paid on the back-end instead of completely up front, studios would save money AND the girl would have a vested interest in the film - which may lead to her giving a better performance.

Edited by - TheLoneGunman on 8/3/2006 9:57:20 AM

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in terms of male performers, i dont think that work has really slowly down at all, i just think that there are a lot of girls in the business right now, and its cutting into all of their work. but most guys stay the same. i worked the same in may as april, the same in june as may, and the same in july as june.

but i do think this brings up a larger question, is there a point where there are so many performers that this industry ceases to become a viable option of a full time job for girls and boys? i wonder sometimes. :)

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I was obviously using 1% as an arbitrary number...but yes, it would be $400 more for that ONE movie, but also a few hundred more for EVERY comp that scene landed up on. Since I'm guessing a good scene lands on anywhere from 5 to 10 comps, we're talking about at least $1500 more for the perfomer.

Also, by getting paid on the back-end instead of completely up front, studios would save money AND the girl would have a vested interest in the film - which may lead to her giving a better performance.

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I agree, but...

Are there really any studios that are set up to effectively do this? To accurately and ethically track every single performer's performance in every scene that goes into every movie, onto the Internet, VOD, comped, re-comped, sold to cable, hotels, foreign territories, etc.?

Didn't a start-up company devoted to paying performers back end royalties on their work come and go a couple years ago? How were the performers' experiences? Are they still getting a percentage on the few films that were released? Allegedly some of the office staff was left holding the bag for several months of back pay...

I'm all about back end compensation, unionizing, etc (I've been in the IWW since I entered this business 16 years ago), but I think the adult video industry needs a top-down reinventing before any of this happens. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, btw.

Until such a re-structuring happens, I suspect it'll be business as usual, lowest common demoninator free market capitalism, supply and demand, and getting yours up front.

DMPR: PR For The New Core

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But the more I worked the numbers, the more it looked like it just made more sense for everyone to offer a good rate up front for an all rights release. Saving a few grand up front isn't worth the hit on the back-end, both in cash and bookkeeping hassle. The answer to "Do you want $2,000 now, or a good chance of $4,000 later" is pretty easy to guess.

On the other hand, if our films managed to find their way into wider release, the calculus could change for everyone. "$2,000 now or $20,000 later?" is a totally different prospect.

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