Perhaps this sort of thing with female orgasms goes right over the heads of most male porn fans, so directors know not to even bother showcasing this.

Now, as for the photo of Hamilton Steele dressed like a girl, and having Kelly giving it to him, does anyone know where to find this photo; we should all have the chance to judge this for ourselves. Anyway you look at this, it is not GAY - it is a man and a woman having sex with each other.

The people who run Metro must be conservative tight asses to be upset over something like this , considering what women are put through in the typical gonzo film, including one's put out by Metro. Maybe Mike Quasar would care to comment?

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-T.C.

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I think that when you juxtapose Hamilton's comments, which in my opinion are homophobic, with the mental image of him getting fucked in the ass (and dressed in women's clothing no less), that is downright funny. I don't see how anyone can miss the irony.

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I also don't think it's fair or accurate to label people who don't care to see men rubbing their dicks together as 'homophobic' necessarily. I think the main objection to it is that it's becoming all too common, and alienating a lot of straight porn viewers. This is understandable, and it's not unreasonable for people to object. I don't think gays would appreciate females showing up in their porn, and I don't blame them.

No one is advocating banning it totally, but perhaps we need to just come out and admit that it's at least bi-sexual, and deal with it in that genre.

As for female orgasms, there was a poll about this awhile back, and the upshot was that the majority of male viewers really didn't care one way or another. Sad but true.

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I am a sexist pig. I don't care for male orgasms in my porn. I solely look for female pleasure. The trouble is, how can I tell it is 'real'? Well, basically, I have to admit that I can't. So, I look for something else: is the female pleasure 'believable', 'credible'. If it is, than I am satisfied. So, I am not really looking for 'real' female orgasms, I am looking for signs that what I am seeing, could be the 'real' deal. Once again, I am looking for 'blissful rupture', not 'blissful rapture'.

Maybe that is part of the reason why most male reviewers don't mention female orgasms: they are not sure. Don't you know, men are terribly insecure and they hate being wrong. Maybe that is why they (we?) are fascinated by the so-called female squirting: it provides some kind of 'proof', like the male money shot. Of course, then a whole new discussion begins: is the squirting fake or not. See what I mean by being insecure.




MLyons said:
"Stop thinking you know everything and really LISTEN every once in a while. You'd be surprised to figure out what people are REALLY saying!"

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Perhaps on an subconscious level, many companies have figured out that gay males will purchase more porn than straight ones. (And yes there is research to back this statement.) So what these companies are doing is making gay porn disguised as hetero porn. Its chief consumer are gay males and gay males still in denial. And it has gone further than just lean well built muscular men. Most of the time it`s a group of men on 1 woman doing everything from a gang bang to double and triple anal. Am I wrong in thinking that most men fantasize about having two women all to themself, and not doing triple anal or a 20 guy gang bang?

Now everyone`s definition of what is or isn`t gay differs and I am no exception. I never felt gay sharing a girl or doing double penitration. But when I did a 21 man gang bang I found myself feeling very gay. It didn`t take me long to think that most guys watching the video aren`t worried about the girl. (They just say they are in order to look hetro infront of their girlfriends.)

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I hate to admit it ( because I don’t want to contribute to a common stereotype ) but I think Hamilton Steele has some what of a point. I would only make one change. I think he’s referring to bi or bi-curious men. Most gay men really wish to see “real gay sex“. And as we have discussed here thoroughly most of us don’t find DAPS and DPS ‘Gay”

I have found however, straight men who want to see women only (or almost only) are very vocal, but don’t always represent the sales figures. They may rent, borrow, or swap movies but they tend not to buy new titles.

An example of this was when Platinum Pictures Inc. ( the east coast ethnic porn company that I work for) received a lot of e-mails from guys asking why our straight male star, Lorenzo Loretto was on the front of the box cover that bared his name.

After a great deal of debate and conversation within the company, we decided to offer a box cover that featured one of our females, Sultry Foxx predominantly. Instead of changing the box cover, we decided to offer “Box Cover choice”. A way to allow the consumer to pick the box cover that most appeals to them. The movie content hadn’t changed, just the box cover.

To our surprise, only on one purchase came in for the Sultry Foxx Box Cover and the Lorenzo Loretto boxcover has done better sales after offering the choice. All of our female consumers pick the Lorenzo box cover (no surprise) but most of the men picked his cover even after given a choice (big surprise).

I do expect that in a store that offers mainly rentals, the Sultry Foxx box cover would do better than the Lorenzo Box Cover because the rental guys look for and want to see more females even to the exclusion of men.

But because store sales drive re-orders and pure rentals don’t, more companies will adjust to the reality that both their female and male performers are of sexual interest.

Please understand I know this is a generalization and it does not apply to all... but overall Hamilton Steele has a valid point.

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I always give credit for an obviously faked one, as long as the female appears to experience some kind of enjoyment and resolution. It's unrealistic to expect real ones on a set, they'd be working overtime.

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-T.C.

Edited by - TonyC on 2/11/2004 12:10:53 PM

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I also don't think it's fair or accurate to label people who don't care to see men rubbing their dicks together as 'homophobic' necessarily. I think the main objection to it is that it's becoming all too common, and alienating a lot of straight porn viewers. This is understandable, and it's not unreasonable for people to object. I don't think gays would appreciate females showing up in their porn, and I don't blame them.
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Since I made the point I'll respond. I didn't suggest that men " who don't care to see men rubbing their dicks together" where necessarily 'homophobic'.

I was expressing a underling homophobic subtext to the out rage and the request that (DAPS) stop for all of us.

And although you example is provotivtive it is not exactly an apples and apples comparison. DAPS by definition requires men to touch while in the process of having sex with a woman. There is no gay equivenlt.

The solution to objections of DAPS is clear. Get a different video. I hate P.O.V. movies (I call them dildo movies) but I don't call for them to stop, I just get movies that show both women and men. That is a rational response.

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I could certainly stand to see less double anal/vaginal stuff on the market, but I do just fine finding what I want to see anyway. The gay issue has nothing to do with my feelings. It just doesn't interest me--in general, the number of a guys in a scene is inversely proportional to the amount of chemistry between the males and the female. In short order, it starts to turn into more of a frat party than a sexual encounter. On the other hand, I could stand to see a little MORE good quality female to male dominance scenes (including strap ons). I realize, though, that they can be really tricky to shoot with the right dynamic. If people think my affinity for that kind of action makes me gay... ok. ::apathetic shrug::

I guess I just don't understand why calling someone gay has to be accusatory? Or more to the point, I suppose, why people interpret it as being accusatory. It just shows how far we HAVEN'T come in accepting people for who they are.

We are who we are. This is one of those cases where labels and categories just make no sense to me.

EDITED - Oh and in response to Renee--I hope you don't consider me among those who ignores female orgasms. One of my primary purposes in my reviews is to try to point them out. As Walter says, it's damn hard to tell if they're real. I don't have any way of knowing for sure, but if I think one happened or might have, I always mention it because it's important to me.

Mike L.

Edited by - MLyons on 2/11/2004 12:31:19 PM

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My problem is not that some people like to watch this stuff; rather, that there is an apparent dishonesty on the part of the porn producers that borders on farce. The result is that non-consumers come across this stuff (as in the Howard Stern segment someone posted about a while back) and immediately want no part in it.

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- If a man has anal sex with a woman (in a 1 on 1 scene), then that man is a latent homosexual (and any man who likes to watch it is also a latent homosexual).

- If two men DP a woman, then they are exhibiting homosexual behavior because their balls are rubbing together (and any man who likes to watch it is also a latent homosexual with a secret desire to rub his balls against another man's balls).

- If two men double penetrate either a woman's vagina or anus, they are exhibiting homosexual behavior because their dicks are rubbing together (and any man who likes to watch it is also a latent homosexual with a secret desire to rub his dick against another man's dick).

- If men gangbang a woman, then they are exhibiting homosexual behavior by being in such close proximity and touching other men while nude (even if the woman doesn't do anal or DP during the gangbang). And, any man who likes to watch it is also a latent homosexual with a secret desire to touch other men while nude.

The above comments are often (often, not aways, often) made in a very judgmental way, conveying a not-so-subtle attitude that homosexuality is intrinsically wrong. I detect a lot of homophobia out there. Homophobia is defined as "Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men." The distinction is that I rarely come across homophobia directed at lesbians or straight women who engage in lesbian-like behavior. Why do people so rarely complain about straight porn that shows women licking each other's pussies, anuses, etc? How come people rarely complain about two women on one guy? How come people rarely complain about the reverse gangbang (one guy with a bunch of women)?

DB, I cannot tell you the number of times that I have been 'accused' of being a homosexual just because I like anal and DPs in straight porn. I cannot tell you the number of times that people have questioned BigMIKE's heterosexuality just because he likes watching she male movies. Once again, I detect a LOT of homophobia out there.

Think about this, DB. If these people didn't have a problem with homosexuality per se, then why do they even bring up homosexuality at all? Why don't they just say that they don't like DPs, double anals, and double vag scenes from an aesthetic standpoint and simply advocate that fewer such scenes be shot? Some people, essentially, handle it that way, but too many don't (including Mern).

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I think If people really read your post they will understand why I believe topics of anal, gangbangs,DP's and DAP's degenerate into a "gay" thing.

Your post was so thoughtful and intelligent I will look for future post from you.

Lisa

Edited by - platinum6969 on 2/11/2004 4:52:24 PM

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Maybe it's Rocco fucking a woman, and Teo Roccoforte fucking Rocco?

Or, maybe it's a DP, with Rocco in the woman's pussy, and Teo in the woman's ass?

When I took the screenshot, and viewed it out of context from the movie, I saw that it could be looked at two ways.

P.S. The brunette woman - she's buried in there somewhere - did a scene a few days later with Rocco and Hakan Serbes, for Animal Trainer 13. Rocco asked her, in the middle of the this second scene, if she wanted to do a DP with the two men. She looked up at Rocco with a sparkle in her eye, and said No.

Good for her for speaking her mind, and good for Rocco for having the guts to leave this in the movie, because he could have easily edited it out.

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Where is the poll about female orgasms and porn fans? Is it in the poll section, and how long ago was it done? I'd like to have a look at it.

Tony C., you've got a point. If a guy has never had sex with a woman who's had an orgasm, then how would he ever know when he sees one on a DVD? No wonder they want to see the squirting events.

In my personal experience with the guys I've bedded down with, the ones who have to ask me if I've had an orgasm are the crummiest lovers, who haven't a clue what to do in bed (and they don't want any advice on improving, either).

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Looking at the screenshot in general terms (without regard to the identity of the performers), if the scene involved two guys and a girl, with one guy's dick in the other guy's ass, then I would classify the scene as bisexual. Whereas, if it's two guys on one girl, and the guys are performing double vag or double anal on the girl, then I would classify the scene as heterosexual.

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I do like to think that it is at least possible that she might be enjoying herself, and that there's an off chance that she could have an orgasm. (These are the same criteria I use when I have sex, so I guess I'm generalizing)

I don't see how enjoyable it could be to have sphincter streching canyon gaping double everything. Or choking, gagging, slapping, spitting...

I just don't get it.

Myk

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Why?

Because it's a circus act...

Because it usually takes away, not adds to, the passion in a scene...

Because I like to see a beautiful woman, not a beautiful woman drowning in man flesh...

I think its growing popularity is due to viewers becoming board with just vag, oral or anal sex. They've become jaded. They want the limits pushed. Of course this is a generalization and doesn't apply to everyone. A couple of years from now anal and DP's will be the norm and vag sex will become taboo. The cycle will start over.

I've joked about double anal/vag being a gay act, but I dont necessarily believe this to be the case. I do however feel that many men that are comfortable rubbing their tools with another male performer are most likely bisexual, whether they admit it or not.

I'm curious, does DAP's occur in gay porn? A question perhaps GaySatyr can shed some light on.

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It is true that some men dislike watching other naked men in front of the camera. I myself have never thought about it at all, but it does occur. As far as men touching each other while sharing a woman in a scene is concerned, I suppose it might bother you IF being in that situation in your own sex life would bother you, and IF you are substituting yourself in some imaginative way for one of the performers in the film. Personally, I don't think most men watch--for example--a gangbang film and wish they were in the middle of the action. Their focus is entirely on the female, and the pleasure they derive from the event comes not as an imaginary participant, but only as an observer. I suspect most people experience visual pornography as voyeurism, and as such, incidental contact between the men is meaningless--as long as their attention remains focused on the female(s). If you are truly intimidated by male nakedness, you wouldn't be watching naked men with erections in any context, let alone in the sharing of some girls ass.

To me, it is more interesting to ask, not why men are so indifferent to female orgasm in their porn (art imitating life, perhaps), but why many of them are so obsessed with seeing spurting cocks at every turn. Is this the subliminal way the male performer must prove his virility to the viewers? Do some fans prefer 4 guys per girl (where anything past two just get in the way) primarily just to see more cumshots at the end?

Finally, the idea that a man having anything inserted in his ass by his female partner represents homosexual behavior is possibly beside the point. I'm guessing many male viewers reject this sort of activity in their porn not because it's "gay," but because it shows female dominance in a sex scene, which I have come to think is the one thing that the average raincoater cannot endure. Conversely, I find a lot of the "extreme" porn today is nothing but fratboy games (thank you Chico) done at the expense of some female target: "LETS PUT A VODKA BOTTLE UP HER ASS, AND MAKE HER DRINK ALL OUR SPUNK OUT OF A BEER MUG," and so on. It's often the kind of thing that anti-porn theorists call the "sexual abjection of women" (as though some great intellectual process went into the average sex scenario). On a related topic, click on (for those of you who haven't) Zander's link to Sloth's likes and dislikes. Charming fellow, Sloth. Well, at least he's honest.

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And now for something completely different:

Lest I would give a wrong impression, my statement that I am solely looking for female pleasure in porn is only half of the story. There is another half, which I have seldom alluded to. Maybe because I am even a bigger sexist pig in that half of the story?

p.s. dumblonde, may I take this last opportunity to say how really sorry I am that you don't like me quoting you. Such quality going to waste, it is tearing me apart. (I hope you like James Dean; was that enough pathos, or did I overdo it?)



DreamWeaver said:
"Just remember, girlfriends come and go, but porn is forever."

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What give me pause is the idea that even the most exhibitionistic young lass wants to have her exploits portrayed in a way that is ham-handed, uncrafted, unflattering and cheap. On that score, it's rare that I see porn that leaves me thinking that any of the participants (either in front or behind the camera) were motivated by anything other than the money.

On a previous thread, Lazerus wrote of the "friendly contempt" with which pornographers hold their audience. I would offer than in most cases that contempt extends to their talent, and themselves. I would also offer that there is rich evidence that this contempt is not so friendly.

-T.C.

Edited by - TonyC on 2/12/2004 7:58:27 AM

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Myk

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a gangbang scene is like "humanizing" the egg & sperm. in that we see all these men aiming for the same woman...just like all those sperm are aiming for the same egg.

this clinical analysis may turn some off but for me it adds to the excitment!

another aspect is so many men are desperate & longing for male mentorship, a strong male role model. many men would love to have their fathers, uncles, older brothers, cousins, team-mates & buddies TEACH THEM HOW TO FUCK.

for me personally, i love men & women both, JUST MAKE SURE THERE IS A LOT OF CUM!!!!!!!!

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I believe that almost all male performers in hetero porn are gay to begin with. Let's face. If they really liked women, would they last more than 5 minutes fucking them? Would you?
I rest my case.




aybesea said:
"I write stupid posts without even thinking twice."
(That seems like a very sensible thing to do, IMO. In fact, whenever I want to post a stupid post, I don't even think once.)

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Tera Joy had several orgasm during this scene. I worked with her several times and she has multiple and strong orgasm. She usually is super sensitive after and needs a short break. With her it is very easy to tell.

Other girls are different. Sometimes I'm not sure if she got it ore faked it.

BTW, I don't care if DAP and DPP looks gay or not. I like to do it and I know many girls who love it.

Steve Holmes

Edited by - Steve Holmes on 2/17/2004 5:51:30 AM

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Porn is better than ever, go buy non hardcore crap if you want light stuff. I watch porn cuz i can see things that I can't normally do with my girlfriends. Is there too much of the above in movies...no fucking way!

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