Basically, the point isn't that you would necessarily be prosecuted. The point is that you could be if you were somehow (however that might be) discovered with it and they really wanted to push the matter, for whatever reason. Prosecutors love to wave convictions for this stuff in front of the public because it looks good for them. It makes them look like they're doing something about a serious problem. They sometimes don't care if someone is guilty or not. Well, in this case, mere possession is guilt so they would technically be right. That's why my advice was just to avoid places where you think it might turn up altogether. The law in this area is tricky and fickle. I understood perfectly what you were saying. You didn't go looking for it and you didn't expect to see it. I was just saying that it can happen. People have been prosecuted for that (and probably even less). You would have to ask an attorney to get a definite answer to your question. But the conventional wisdom is that you just don't mess around with this stuff. You don't have to do anything wrong for people to get the wrong idea about you. Edited by - randomprecision on 1/29/2008 8:43:26 PM Edited by - randomprecision on 1/29/2008 8:46:35 PM
#SDNY he's all yours. -- Michael Steele 5110 Posts 3/03
Posted - Jan 29 2008 : 8:49PM
jack - to be convicted of most crimes, it has to be proven that you not only committed a criminal act, but also had a criminal intent (or mens rea). Clicking on a link which you had no reason to suspect would lead to an illegal photo would not demonstrate the requisite criminal intent. But if, knowing now that you're dealing with an illegal photo, you were to do something like saving a copy of it to your hard drive, or go back and click on the link again, it would be a different story.
Agreed... the burden of proof lies with the prosecutor. And to get that proof, they have to obtain a warrant to search your house/hard drive from a judge and that takes quite a bit of time. Look: I don't do it. I don't recommend it...but I'm also not these guys telling me I'll go to jail if I even think of a girl. I don't think it's quite the time yet to be paranoid unless you're too insistant about getting it or sending it out which basically means "don't make it your hobby", something the guys on To Catch A Predator were obviously trying to do. I don't see Pee Wee Herman in prison garb and he had photos of young boys naked on the beach on his mantle. There's still a lot of grey area. You going to lock up the parent who takes pictures of baby's first bath? Come on. Prosecutors want cases they can definantly win and that are worth winning. Edited by - Cammy Sutra on 1/29/2008 10:34:37 PM
I'm not one of those people. All I said is that I can understand why someone who has any of Traci's movies would keep them. Of course I know they're illegal to own, and I'm not implying that people should either keep her movies or search for them. Also, I wasn't referring to you in particular. My comments were strictly from a collector's point of view. I'm not searching for her movies. I don't wish I owned any of them. I never thought that you were looking for her movies. I realize that you came across those pictures by accident.Underage or not, Traci was one of the biggest porn stars of the 80s. That's just a fact.I understand why you were thinking about that. It would seem to be a grey area because Traci wasn't exactly a child at that time. But I also realize that it's illegal for anyone to do porn under the age of eighteen. I would say you don't qualify as a collector of child porn, but that's just my opinion.That's what I would think.I totally agree with you.That's true. There will always be a fascination with Traci.
Thanks again for the infos Caroline-NL! That's really interesting and kinda scary actually. I mean it is good to protect children, but that a 17 years old can get into jail because he has nudes of his 17 years old girlfriend is really scary... Are there any attemps to stop the law or force them to rewrite it? Thanks and greetings, Malte
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Dither Persona non grata
I love America 650 Posts 8/05
Posted - Jan 30 2008 : 11:44AM
If a court convicts people to jail for that, they need a lesson in common sense. There is (or at least should be, I'm not into court practice from country to country) enough flexibility in the justice system not to exercise harsh penalties for what is merely acts of thoughtlessness.
Advocates of these insane laws point to prosecutor digression in enforcing these laws. The problem is prosecutors run for election. Church groups have organized and demand prosecutors enforce the letter of the law. This is nothing new in the US. Church groups have always demanded laws prohibiting any sex act thats is not for reproducing. In the seventies the Supreme Court ruled these laws to be unconstitutional. The religious groups went crazy. The feminist were already advocating age of consent laws be raised to eighteen.The religious groups went to Ronald Reagan and the Religious Right was born. The Religious Right then forced republican politicians to join the feminist in raising the age of consent laws. I believe the Religious Right went along with raising the age of consent laws to expand the numbers of people that could be prosecuted. Judges and District Attorneys are under pressure from the Religious Right to prosecute everyone of these cases. I would not count of giving a simple explanation to the Judge or District Attorney and having these charges dropped.
@Dither: I already know some cases in Austria, where the federal police confiscated old german Playboy mags with 16 and 17 year old models ! They werent arrested, but had to pay a fee. And many lost friends or even their job, because they were charged of a felony :"owning and buying childporn". Nobody requestions this later, if they only had harmless nude pictures of nearly adults or terrible brutal cp. But its the US government, that forced the EU to adapt these laws. And some countries not only adapted it to 100%, but to 120%. Mission accomplished. Edited by - Caroline-NL on 1/30/2008 3:23:45 PM
Malte Decker wrote:As you can read on the german website, there are. Linkspartei, FDP and Bündnis90/Grüne want to vote against it. But because of the majority of the great coalition, there is no real chance to stop this !! If you read the comments by the Oberstaatsanwälte in Germany ( chief prosecutors ), they lost their mind and want to prosecute every owner of 15-17 teen porn !!! ( 14 has no importance in commercial porn, except some old 8mm loops ) If I look at the huge amounts of -still legal- Teen Porn material in Germany, I wonder, if they want to put 500 000 or more customers before the trial ? If I would be still living in Germany, under the new laws, which arent passed yet, I would get between 3-5 years in prison. Only for owning movies that are still sold TODAY and that were made under legal conditions. This is sheer madness !!!
Mr. Shagdog, "the" feminist ( or feminists ?) arent a monolithic block. You are talking about the conservative feminist(s). Many of our dutch feminists want to lower the recent age of consent (16) back to our old 12 years of age. Not for porn, but for sex in relationships. They want back the old 16 years minimum age for normal porn. OK, ok, you are living in the USA, but the iFeminists arent so weak either. Too many members here are propagating an unilateral negative view of feminism. Wendy McElroy will be very angry, if she reads all of these castigations against feminism. ;-)
caroline I stand corrected. But you have to agree the damage was done (but not entirely) by the generation of feminists of the 80's. Hopefully this generation of feminists can help correct these mistakes. Hopefully this social conservatism is starting to fade and we return to sanity. Lately I have heard on conservatives on conservative radio and TV say all these age of consent laws may not have been a good idea.
My thoughts exactly. I was introduced to porn during the Traci Lords era, and my g/f and I always cringed if she was the female talent in the potluck unadvertised flick of the week at the seedy neighborhood theater. She brayed like a donkey, gave unpassionate oral, and despite a fantastic body, had chipmunkian facial features that were quite distracting. Even 'Traci I Love You' sucked if I recall...she sucked considerably less on Melrose Place for chrissakes (pun unintended)
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Dither Persona non grata
I love America 650 Posts 8/05
Posted - Jan 30 2008 : 7:37PM
IMO, 18 being the legal age limit for participation in porn is something I have no problems with, I think it's a line of work with social consequences requiring some maturity to appreciate. As for a legal definition of "child porn" or "child abuse"; if "age of consent" is supposed to have any real meaning it should definitely define the judicial age limit for this. In my opinion 16 is somewhat too high of an "age of consent"; when I was 16 most my classmates were done with their debut and I think probably 14 is a better choice. And to that nothing involving people above the "age of consent" should be considered child porn, even if below the "porn minimum age". Also, I've already stated on several occasions that I think american sentencing borders Draconian, but if their democracy chooses that kind of crime punishment it's their issue. However I don't think that we under any circumstances should adapt american style sentencing for any type of crime, be it child porn of anything else. And I think the courts should use common sense in understanding that a 17yo having sex with his 13yo girlfriend is something different than a 60yo priest sodomizing adolescent choir boys. And exercise sentencing thereafter.
Social conservatism isn't fading. It's growing. I don't really give a damn about the age of consent thing. I don't care one way or another. But these guys have whacky ideas about everything and that does bother me.
Speaking of Traci, has there ever been a child actor used in a non-porn role in a porn movie? Take for instance a young boy, idolizing a girl, later in life getting to be intimate with this girl...etc.? I know the plots been used...but have child actors been used --and again I want to stress this-- in non porn roles.
They're not going any where thats for sure. But in 08 Republican Primary race. Mike Huckabee was leading the Republic Primary race he came out and said he thinks the constitution should be changed to reflect the bible. He immediately dropped to a distant a 3th in the race. John McCain is the only Republican candidate that didn't hang his religion around his neck is now the leading Republican candidate.
Across the country religious people are starting to tell they're leaders to get out of politics. I think it's peaked and turning back. I hope so. My only interest in age of consent laws is it's the battle ground that the fight between social conservatives and social liberals over our constitution.
I highly doubt this. Yeah, the child actor would obviously not be involved in the sex scenes, but I'm sure it would still violate the laws placed on porn. I don't think that a child could even be an extra in the distance in a porno film. For example, if there was a scene where one of the film's stars was walking down the street, children couldn't be seen playing in the background. I'm totally positive about this.
why though? It's not like the kid is actually seeing the film. If it was just difficult getting a child actor due to the subject matter, why not pay somebody's kid? Porn stars DO have kids.
In the US, it is criminal to possess child porn. Unfortunately, that means despite what Henri Patel said earlier, no mens rea is necessary. It is true that most crimes require mens rea (evil thought basically - and Henri was correct when he said it means intent under the law), but there are small number of strict liability crimes where no mens rea is required. Possession of child porn is one of them. There was a case I read about where some guy always had his computer scanning for porn. The porn was automatically downloaded to his hard drive and he would periodically back up to some sort of discs. This guy was hit for child porn because his computer had downloaded some - probably hard to avoid if you have your computer grab every single naked image off the net - and then he had backed it up onto discs. No one believed that he had ever seen the images or had any idea that they were there. His collection was so vast no human could ever look at it all. He collected it all because he was obsessive compulsive. He went down for child porn without ever knowing he had it or seeing the images in question. He was nabbed because he had a roommate who actually was interested in child porn and then there was a mixup about identity. The key then becomes "what does it mean 'to posses?'" Obviously you possess it if you back it up. I believe though that courts have ruled here that you possess it if it is on your computer at all. This includes browser cache. Because of the way that computers work and how hard it is to scrub your computer of anything that has ever been on it, it is possible to click on a link not knowing there is child porn there and then always possess that illegal image and thus be eligible for prosecution. Because of all this, I would stay as far away from anything that was close to child porn or Traci Lords. However, with all that said, I don't think I have ever heard of anyone being prosecuted for owning Traci's movies. I think the only possible way for you to go down for that is because the government wanted you for something else. The DA would have to have a major hard on for you to even consider going after you for her stuff. If you were being charged with child porn for some other reason, you would get charged with those images as well. Otherwise you would need to be on the radar for some other reason to ever get in actual trouble for her stuff. I am a lawyer, but I am not practicing, and none of this should be taken as legal advice. Also, all of this is from memory and not anything I looked up just now.
"Traci I love you " is crap. But some of her middle movies are very good. ( They are still sold and for rental here ) In some movies, you could really see, that she is "hot", and enjoys the sex before the camera. And she already had acting qualities. I dont tell movie titles, because I dont want to make you curious. She enjoyed being a porn star. That she later denied this, is nonsense. So many actresses did this, look at Linda Lovelace. Both returned for a short comeback. Would they had done this, if they hated the porn genre so much ? I didnt like Tracis looks and she isnt my type, but she was a talent of her time. She even was famous before her real age was discovered. She was a big name, like Ginger Lynn. Her talent shouldnt be diminished, but it shouldnt be exaggerated either. Talking about the "porn wild west 70s", where kids played in no-porn roles in porn movies or movies with erotic situations. If this would be all, I would be very happy. Quite a lot of companies cashed in on real childporn. But that has nothing to do with Traci Lords. Its idiotic, that her movies are in the same category as the worst sex crimes.
But for selling...... Ive read about some cases in old issues of Penthouse, I cant remember, if this was the US or the british issue. After the Traci videos were banned, some US dealers still tried to sell them under the counter. Because some charged horror prices, one angry customer informed the authorities anonymously. The shop was raided by a police squad and they confiscated the movies. But these cases were shortly after the age scandal was exposed.Exactly ! I know of some cases, where US collectors had - under US law, but not under european law - illegal teen porn ("child porn") movies, with teen actors between 15-17. On these cases, the police confiscated the old Traci movies too. For a look into the history of teen porn and the teen porn controvery, I can recommend the book "Porn Gold". Edited by - Caroline-NL on 1/31/2008 4:59:49 AM
pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world 12377 Posts 9/07
Posted - Jan 31 2008 : 6:10AM
That was largely in Europe wasn't it Caroline? I think the fact that it was produced back then shows that there is some need for government regulation or at least overview of the porn industry because clearly when left up to their own devices there is nothing that some people won't stoop to. Edited by - BlackSix on 2/1/2008 11:47:29 PM
@BlackSix: Ohh, I dont wanted to talk about this in detail again. ( We already had this in the "underage" thread ) Yes, CCC/Rodox, but also special cp companies from the NL and several scandinavian countries, but also the USA. USA was one of the biggest producers until 1977. ( Especially on 8mm "movies" ). Its hard to use the term movies here for me. These were filmed atrocities.
It doesn't matter. If you're a porn producer, you don't want kids involved in any way, shape or form. Porn already has too many enemies. I guess I should ask why anyone would want this?
Adds realism. Adds plotlines. You know adults have kids too. I think it sucks to fold to "governmental pressure". If they're limiting freedom, I prefer the "go out with a bang" route.
With all the talk about Traci's porn career, I can also understand why people would be curious about her movies. I have a feeling that many of those were good movies. Of course the scandal ruined many people's chances to see those movies (myself included), and the studios that made those movies lost a lot of money. By the way, it's very easy to find information on her movies (like the movie titles, cast lists, studio credits, etc.). But it's not illegal to post that kind of information since it doesn't involve viewing the actual movies.
Shake for me girl... I wanna be your backdoorman ! 2776 Posts 10/07
Posted - Feb 1 2008 : 9:33AM
^ What pisses me off is that a lot of other peoples performances go unseen due to her bullshit. Someone ought to do a series of comps from her movies without her in them just to see people like Ginger Lynn, Christy Canyon, Heather wayne, Gina Valentino, etc..... "Censorship is the first step towards dictatorship !" Honest Ed
Ohhhh, the poor studios..... I doubt, that they lost money. These were big sellers in the USA then and long running sellers in Europe. They are still offered in some european countries.
Exactly Those movies had already made there "New Release" runs. They went to Europe where they were legal. With a lot of publicity and fanfare. Again those movies were not that good when compared to todays movies.
BlackSix wrote:No, you misunderstood me. It is widely known and you can read this on many blogs and scientific pages, that Color Climax Corp. produced several dozens childporn movies from 1971-79. This has nothing to do with promotion. As long as I am not naming single movie titles. I think every porn consumer should be aware of this. Because often you read, how much fun it was working at CCC. For some older teens and adults it was, but not for these kids. It wasnt fun, but hell on earth. And that these bastards werent imprisoned or sentenced, because they exploited a loophole in the danish law, still makes me angry. They cashed in millions, and not even donated one single cent for the welfare of molested children later. And it also makes me angry, that the Traci Lords movies ( done out of a free will, 15+ ) and these horrific crimes are equalized under the USEuropean laws.
Check ot "Ginger Lynn: The Movie". Paradise Visuals produced much of Traci Lords best stuff. Since all of it was pulled, they gathered the rest of the non-Traci clips, and compiled them into this imovie. Therefore, this is both a Feature and a Compilation. Awarded Best reissued Classic by AVN in 2006. In addition, there is a FABULOUS discussion about the whole Traci Lords issue inclusing Ginger and, I think, Jim Holiday (it's been awhile so don't quote me on this). It covers Traci front to back from the opinions of those who worked with her and last for about an hour. It is a GREAT Grab!
One thing I don't get is why people say that people shouldn't be interested in Traci's movies when there's today's porn (other than Traci's movies being illegal). There are people who want to see a part of porn's past. It's not about wanting to see young girls (or young-looking girls). It's about nostalgia (and also curiosity). Also, they shouldn't be compared to what's out today. Today's porn stars may be more attractive and do much nastier things than Traci ever did, but that's not the issue. Of course people shouldn't be searching for her movies. That part is already a given.
reading this thread reminded me of some video I own, which has Traci in it. remember that heavy metal band named "Helix"? they had that song called "Rock You" well, they relaesed a vhs tape back in 1984 containing their music videos. I bought this on ebay a while back. and one of the videos was for a song called "gimme gimme good lovin" and these vids were uncensored. MTV played the clean versions, well in this vid there are girls walking on a runway, like the models do, and who comes out with boobies jigglin?? Traci Lords! I just had to laugh.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Jul 23 2008 : 6:05PM
It is illegal unless it is Traci I love You. Anyone telling you the authorities will let you off with a warning are sadly mistaken. There are no warning tickest for child porn in the US. My wife is on a Federal Grand Jury for the next year, the FBI is actively going after anyone downloading underage porn. The went to this guys ip address and he is in jail right now, awaiting trial. BTW he was an end user.
What about those crazy LIMEWIRE and KAZAA videos,i guess from Russian,Ukraine and some of these countries from East Europe that procude childporn.Is that OK to own? If not, why the authorities keep those videos online,they are very easy to find.
OF COURSE NOT ! These sites are often reported, but are hosted in countries like Russia, Ukraine or Belorussia, that dont have the manpower or dont see a top priority on this subject. All of these countries have signed international treaties, that demand more legal action against cp. Viewing old Traci Lords material is illegal too ( at least in the USA/Canada ), but Ive heard several times, that authorities allowed the possession. Several of these cases are reported in the scientific literature. But I wouldnt try it, if I would be living in North America.
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Clam Digger Deactivated User
Many a man fails as an original thinker simply because his memory is too good. 2268 Posts 1/05
Posted - Jul 24 2008 : 1:10PM
What happens if you, who has never seen a Traci Lords scene or picture, download a TL clip that is identified has someone else? Let's say the feds bust you for something else, impound your computer and find the clip?
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son. 1048 Posts 7/04
Posted - Jul 24 2008 : 5:29PM
How about this? What if you have seen all of Traci's movies, are an accomplished artist with a photographic memory and commit every scene of hers to canvas? Would that be child porn?
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Jul 24 2008 : 5:37PM
The authorities in the US don't allow possession of ANY underage porn. I had a collection of at least50 of her movies plus a ton of magazines, I had to throw them all away, I could not take a chance of getting caught with them. I was offered a small fortune for them, there was no way I would do that because i could have go busted for sales of child porn.
Do you realize that a feature of witch hunts is that most/all of the victims are not witches? So you favor punishing people for crimes they are not guilty of. In fact many soposed pedophiles are in fact ephebophiles. Pedophiles victims are usually 13 years or younger. Even when the victims are young the offender may not be a pedphile if the primary motivation was sadistic or if an older victim would have been prefered if available. In particular cases where videos were created in which the producers held the reasonable belief the subject was of age, there can exist no intent of a crime. Finally those poor pedophiles, you gotta feel for them. It is no doubt an unfortunate condition. Many are guilty of no crime. Even for those who are guilty of crimes can be felt for without in any way excusing her actions.
Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time. George Carlin 1567 Posts 2/07
Posted - Jul 25 2008 : 3:01PM
It seems you are condoning sex with a minor. Like you are saying hey, those poor guys at Nambla are just misunderstood. Ephebophilia Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Cite This Source Ephebophilia or Hebephilia has been defined as the primary or exclusive sexual attraction to adolescents. In everyday English, the term pedophilia, strictly meaning sexual attraction to children, is also colloquially used to refer to attraction to adolescents. Ephebophilic relationships are against the law in many countries and jurisdictions, depending on the location's age of consent legislation, which typically asserts that a person below a certain age is not legally capable of consenting to a sexual act. In the US, for example, the adult in such a relationship may be subject to charges of statutory rape, regardless of whether the younger partner agrees to—or even initiates—the sexual activity. Some reasons given for this legal distinction include: * Some adolescents are unable to understand the physical, emotional, and social consequences of sexual activity. According to the August 2006 issue of Scientific American, the neurological development of late adolescents is not yet complete, leading to deficits in their higher cognitive functions including judgment, attention, and response to crisis situations. However, late adolescence also includes people over 18, since neurological development is still not complete at this age (by this definition).
Posted - Jan 29 2008 : 8:40PM